View Full Version : Here we go again... Illegal Players
DownSouth
07-06-07, 04:41 PM
I know this becomes a subject every year... this year will be no different.
I just got word that defending State Champions, Morehead City has an illegal player thats been playing with them all year and staying at a summer home. Apparently he lives in Wake County and is no where near playing for the correct legion team.
Even worse, State Director, Roy Waters is giving Morehead City extra time to try to make their team legal and get any release forms they can for him.
I honestly don't know whats more annoying. Teams trying to skirt the rules or Roy Waters AGAIN playing both sides against the middle. The man causes more trouble by trying to play favorites and he will continue destroying Legion baseball if he is not brought down.
I love Legion baseball. I love being apart of so many great peoples lives. But this will be my last year because I have got to a place where I purely hate people involved in the sport.
I swear, I am off my soapbox.
travisunc
07-06-07, 05:06 PM
Pretty cut and dry. If he has not been released before playing a game from his "home" team, then the player is illegal and Morehead is done.
you would think - but i bet it will not be that simple
SuperJon
07-06-07, 05:29 PM
If I was Rowan County, and Morehead gets to keep playing, I would be beyond pissed.
From what I've heard...He was about 40 legion teams in between his and Morehead. The rules state he must get a release from every team in between. No sure how that would work with so many teams...alot easier from lets say count to county...
DownSouth
07-06-07, 05:49 PM
I cannot stress enough how many American Legion teams need to be clammering for Water's head if they are allowed to keep their status. When I heard about this from one of my buddies in down on the coast, he said there are people flipping out over this. Threatening to pull out of the playoffs and at least one of the Area heads threatened to quit if this is allowed to stand.
And you brought up a great point about Rowan. Think about what they did to that program or McDowell a few years ago.
I tell you what scares me and I don't know who the player is. Are they trying to sweep this under the rug because that team was illegal last year too?
getting cleared from about 40 teams took over 2 week....but I heard the player go all releases......I'm sure the guy at the coast knows more than someone aaround these parts....lol
He was from Wake County I think?
DownSouth
07-06-07, 05:59 PM
That is what I was told. My friend is a HS coach down there, and hes getting all this info second hand. I don't know the kid's name even. And you mean to tell me there are 40 coaches willing to sign release forms? I am telling you if hes from Wake and playing for Morehead City... Garner would have had to release him and Wayne Co and Wilmington... Aint no way.
Does Hickory play tonight? I would love for someone to confront Waters with this one.
travisunc
07-06-07, 06:29 PM
Rowan has gotten screwed over this on two occasions. In 1988, Rowan was disqualified because a players birthday was wrong on the roster. Legal player, but the birthday was off by a digit. This team was close to being undefeated and had Brian Boltz anchoring the pitching staff who no one was going to touch.
Two years ago, they played the whole season and a couple of playoff rounds, when someone wrote an anonymus to the Area Commissioner saying Wade Moore lived closer to Mocksville than Rowan. Moore had played his entire career with Rowan and went to West Rowan high school. It was deemed that Moore did in fact live closer to Mocksville.......by less than a mile. Rowan was deemed ineligible.
RaleighDevil
07-06-07, 06:42 PM
I have emailed our AO and coach about this. Awaiting responses.
MHSTITAN
07-06-07, 06:54 PM
I cannot stress enough how many American Legion teams need to be clammering for Water's head if they are allowed to keep their status. When I heard about this from one of my buddies in down on the coast, he said there are people flipping out over this. Threatening to pull out of the playoffs and at least one of the Area heads threatened to quit if this is allowed to stand.
And you brought up a great point about Rowan. Think about what they did to that program or McDowell a few years ago.
I tell you what scares me and I don't know who the player is. Are they trying to sweep this under the rug because that team was illegal last year too?
New to Legion, what happen to Rowan and McDowell?
DownSouth
07-06-07, 07:05 PM
New to Legion, what happen to Rowan and McDowell?
The last year McDowell had a team they were forced to forfeit all their games and missed the playoffs because they had a couple of Illegal players. I think they were some Buncome Co. kids or Asheville kids one or the other... but it wasn't flat out counties away. McDowell forfeited their games, missed the playoffs and folded...
Rowan had a great record a couple years ago when there was a new legion team pop up in Mocksville I think... one of their kids was playing for the wrong team... they got booted out of the playoffs and I think it was Eastern Randolph that made it in because of it....
So whats the lesson from Roy Waters.... accidentally break the rules, burn them at the stake... you miss the right team by a few counties and know the right people, PLAY ON!!
wrasslin, NASCAR and American Legion baseball
Carolina Man
07-07-07, 03:07 AM
This is the same old story in legion baseball on the state level. Politics has been playing a big role and there is not place for it when you are playing with kids careers and results that they will have to live with for the rest of there lives. When a team gets beat fair and square...you can live with that, but when you fine out you get beat out of a State Championship by a illegal ball club like what happen in 2004 between Garner and Caldwell, you don't ever get over something like that. There needs to be a huge investigation on the state level and get rid of these people who think they are bigger than the game itself...its fine to have control of the league, but its not fine when you control the outcome of games, with illegal ballplayers, certain umpires calling certain games...it has happen...I've seen it happen......IT NEEDS TO STOP.....I won't name any names but we all know who they are...
Carolina Man
I still say that their should be a time limit on protestations of illegal players. With one you close two cans of worms:
- The unscrupulous rival who knows at the beginning of the year, but waits til playoff time to see how that team goes through their season.
- The players on the team that bust their butt all summer to make it to the playoffs, then find out that there is an illegal player. They trust the adults involved not to jeopardize their experience.
If an illegal player is discovered near the beginning of the season, he can be booted off, games already played are forfeited and the remaining players still have a chance not to waste their season.
Roadking
07-07-07, 08:33 AM
I nominate Braves for the new NC State Director.....do I hear a second?
Carolina Man
07-07-07, 09:08 AM
I nominate Braves for the new NC State Director.....do I hear a second?
Braves would need help going into that snake pit... :beatdeadhorse5:
Carolina Man
Braves would need help going into that snake pit... :beatdeadhorse5:
Carolina Man
No thank you....but if I did, I'd be surrounded by all of my legion buddies here on TBR as my co-directors. That way, if anybody had complaints, I would direct them towards y'all :cheer:
RaleighDevil
07-07-07, 10:13 AM
We have a new Area I commissioner. He has introduced several mind-blowing innovations never seen 'round these parts.
1. He has everyone send scores to him.
2. He attempts to keep updated standings on a site.
3. He forwards to me Area I East South Division scores, and I usually put them on my blog.
4. He has an email address where he can be reached by mere mortals such as me.
5. He believes it's okay to talk to the press.
http://nclegion.org/srbaseball.htm
Here is his website for all Area I
We have a new Area I commissioner. He has introduced several mind-blowing innovations never seen 'round these parts.
1. He has everyone send scores to him.
2. He attempts to keep updated standings on a site.
3. He forwards to me Area I East South Division scores, and I usually put them on my blog.
4. He has an email address where he can be reached by mere mortals such as me.
5. He believes it's okay to talk to the press.
My kind of guy. We need to get him on TBR as a member.
What is an illegal player anyways until rosters are set for the playoffs? How about all the kids who play on multiple rosters/tournaments during the regular season?
Hopefully Post 46 has things under control and no problems occur.
Carolina Man
07-07-07, 03:56 PM
We have a new Area I commissioner. He has introduced several mind-blowing innovations never seen 'round these parts.
1. He has everyone send scores to him.
2. He attempts to keep updated standings on a site.
3. He forwards to me Area I East South Division scores, and I usually put them on my blog.
4. He has an email address where he can be reached by mere mortals such as me.
5. He believes it's okay to talk to the press.
That sounds and looks like a great start...but it needs to happen in Area II, Area III, Area IV, but you have to have honest people in place receiving this information. A committee should be appointed to check the rosters of each team in the playoffs. Its a shame we can't trust adults who are in charge to make sure each member of their team is legal. Have the committee check birth certificates and residency of each player, until this happens American Legion Baseball will start to decline more and more until people get to the point where they don't trust it anymore....Then they will stop coming and the results......you have screwed up a great program.
Carolina Man
If I may add a few points that "must" be considered,,,,,,,,, first since DownSouth said this kid is staying at a summer home, that is no good, because the rules CLEARLY say you will play for the legion team nearest your PERMANENT residence.
As for getting a release from 40 teams in between his permanent residence and his new team,,,,,,,, this is not always necessary. For example, (if we can all admit we don't really know the facts just yet),,,,,,,,,, "IF" (and the key word is IF) this kid is NOT living at a summer home, but his family actually moved from one area to the other, then you do NOT need releases from every team in between. You merely need a release from your former team.
I agree that its unfortunate these situations seem to occur and Lord knows they gather a lot of attention when they do,,,,,,,,, but before we criticize Legion baseball, is it possible that Legion baseball (with our competitive nature among us) and us doing our own policing, is it possible that we simply enforce the rules better than certain other sports? Afterall, I'm sure you all know high school students who play high school sports every year for a certain high school when they live across the county, simply because that school has the best baseball program or football program in the area. And you rarely ever hear about high school athletes getting caught. It goes on all the time in other sports.
As for Roy Waters, I don't know him. To clear up the Rowan County situation 2 years ago, it was not Wade Moore, it was Zeb Link who (as someone stated) someone wrote an anonymous letter stating Link lived closer to the Mocksville team and was illegal for Rowan. It was an honest mistake on the Links and the Rowan team, but yes they were disqualified. I've always said there should be 2 kinds of penalties,,,,,,,,, 1) you GONE when the infraction seems deliberate,,,,, and 2) a couple game suspension if the infraction seems to be an honest mistake (such as an unreadable birth certificate).
This situation with Morehead City will be interesting to see how it plays out,,,, and Mr.Waters must surely know a lot of folks from Murphy to Manteo will be watching to see the final results and his ruling.
Btw, if in fact the kid's family did move their permanent residence, they had to have moved prior to sometime in April (I believe) according to AL rules. Just can't say you moved during the middle of a season, if that happens you finish the season with the team you start with.
As for someone's comments on the "final roster" and players doing showcases etc,,,,,,,, the final roster is not due until the playoffs begin. Players are free to do showcases until that time. Once the playoffs begin, no more dual participation under any other circumstances. Unfortunately there are many coaches and team leaders who don't do a very good job of getting this information out to players and their families.
But even with the situation of players doing showcases during the legion regular season,,,,, legion players are still not allowed to simply play for other legion teams, simply because the final roster isn't set yet. Legion players must play for their home legion team, plain and simple. In fact, I know many folks that won't just give a player a release because he wants it. Releases are not as easy to get as some may think.
And DownSouth, you can't go nowhere, I know what you mean, I hear controversy all the time too,,, some I agree with, some I don't. I've bit a hole in my lip more than once trying to keep quiet and be a good boy, but sometimes we just have enough of it too. Listen, folks like you are the ones in it for the right reasons,,,,, you do what you do for the boys and nobody else, all while not asking for a dime. Screw the rest.
Intimidator Coach
07-07-07, 07:09 PM
when did Legion season start ?
:60:
RaleighDevil
07-07-07, 08:02 PM
Wayne County gave him a release, but I have not talked to the coach to find his reasoning. I will get back to you on it.
Carolina Man
07-07-07, 09:32 PM
[quote=tj21;1883511]If I may add a few points that "must" be considered,,,,,,,,, first since DownSouth said this kid is staying at a summer home, that is no good, because the rules CLEARLY say you will play for the legion team nearest your PERMANENT residence.
As for getting a release from 40 teams in between his permanent residence and his new team,,,,,,,, this is not always necessary. For example, (if we can all admit we don't really know the facts just yet),,,,,,,,,, "IF" (and the key word is IF) this kid is NOT living at a summer home, but his family actually moved from one area to the other, then you do NOT need releases from every team in between. You merely need a release from your former team.
I agree that its unfortunate these situations seem to occur and Lord knows they gather a lot of attention when they do,,,,,,,,, but before we criticize Legion baseball, is it possible that Legion baseball (with our competitive nature among us) and us doing our own policing, is it possible that we simply enforce the rules better than certain other sports? Afterall, I'm sure you all know high school students who play high school sports every year for a certain high school when they live across the county, simply because that school has the best baseball program or football program in the area. And you rarely ever hear about high school athletes getting caught. It goes on all the time in other sports.
As for Roy Waters, I don't know him. To clear up the Rowan County situation 2 years ago, it was not Wade Moore, it was Zeb Link who (as someone stated) someone wrote an anonymous letter stating Link lived closer to the Mocksville team and was illegal for Rowan. It was an honest mistake on the Links and the Rowan team, but yes they were disqualified. I've always said there should be 2 kinds of penalties,,,,,,,,, 1) you GONE when the infraction seems deliberate,,,,, and 2) a couple game suspension if the infraction seems to be an honest mistake (such as an unreadable birth certificate).
This situation with Morehead City will be interesting to see how it plays out,,,, and Mr.Waters must surely know a lot of folks from Murphy to Manteo will be watching to see the final results and his ruling.[/quo
Nicely said....make no mistake, I really feel like American Legion Baseball, overall is a great organization but we have some officials on the state level who needs to be looked at very closely. Alot of things go on behind the scenes that are very fishy. Mr Waters has been known to flip back and forth depending on who he's talking to. A man in his position needs to be able to take a stand on a issue, make the right decision, and don't give in to politics....Make the right decision for all the ball players. He has made players or teams pay in the past for cover-ups of his own screw-ups. If I was in position I would fire his a-- tonight....
Carolina Man :hanged:
RaleighDevil
07-08-07, 10:32 PM
I just talked to our coach. He got an email from the father asking for a release. He believes, but is not sure, that the player is home-schooled. The family is going to spend the summer in the Morehead area.
This situation may not be analagous to other certain situations I won't rehash. Our coach has never heard of this player, and he would know if he were someone you would see as an impact player.
Let's have someone provide the player's stats for this season. Was he a star? Did he even play much? What evidence is there to suggest he was recruited? Let's attempt to get answers to these questions before we get bent out of shape.
Village Idiot
07-09-07, 08:28 AM
Two years ago, they played the whole season and a couple of playoff rounds, when someone wrote an anonymus to the Area Commissioner saying Wade Moore lived closer to Mocksville than Rowan. Moore had played his entire career with Rowan and went to West Rowan high school. It was deemed that Moore did in fact live closer to Mocksville.......by less than a mile. Rowan was deemed ineligible.Zeb Link, not Wade
Talked with someone earlier tonight who informed me that there should be no problems with this situation and Morehead City will be fine. The player in jeopardy is a substitute outfielder apparently. But as I said, it appears things are clear for Post 46.
LegionPost46
07-10-07, 02:20 AM
wow.
well heres the story as i know it. player moved to the beach for the summer and asked could he play for us. our ad says well we have to get the proper releases. player's dad gets the releases and the information is sent to the state folks. everything at that point is ok'd. then a couple of weeks ago our ad recieves word that a mistake was made by the state and that player's dad got the releases linearly from home to the beach instead of doing it in a radius from home to the beach. so players dad takes to getting releases from every team in area 1, 2, and 3 successfully. for the most part everyone for whom a release was asked was gracious enough to not only give it but also help with getting others around them. its quite an impressive paper lion.
SuperJon
07-10-07, 05:00 AM
Let's have someone provide the player's stats for this season. Was he a star? Did he even play much? What evidence is there to suggest he was recruited? Let's attempt to get answers to these questions before we get bent out of shape.
I'm speaking hypothetically here, and not against the Morehead City team.
I think that the questions you asked don't matter. If any team has an illegal player, whether they mean to or not, they should all suffer the same penalties. Speeding on purpose and speeding because you're not paying attention gets you the same exact fine if you're caught.
UK7Dook3
07-10-07, 08:32 AM
wow.
well heres the story as i know it. player moved to the beach for the summer and asked could he play for us. our ad says well we have to get the proper releases. player's dad gets the releases and the information is sent to the state folks. everything at that point is ok'd. then a couple of weeks ago our ad recieves word that a mistake was made by the state and that player's dad got the releases linearly from home to the beach instead of doing it in a radius from home to the beach. so players dad takes to getting releases from every team in area 1, 2, and 3 successfully. for the most part everyone for whom a release was asked was gracious enough to not only give it but also help with getting others around them. its quite an impressive paper lion.
I hope this is the case. We're talking about a bunch of kids playing a game. And it's playoff time. The story ought to be about runs, hits & errors...not misinterpretation of technicalities.
Alot of people have been banging on the state Legion leaders, but it sounds like they got this one right in the end: rules were satisfied & kids weren't unfairly penalized. Maybe a few apologies are in order.
might be the right thing but it is not the rules other teams have had to follow in the past and they have been knocked out of competion for not following those rules. the ad should not have accepted any kind of releases with out them being correct. he is responsible for knowing the rules and not allowing anyone to jepordise his team if they are not 100 % correct. doing what the kid needed to do to be legal was almost impossible and he should only have been abel to play if he got the right releases before he played its not something you go back and get.
Carolina Man
07-10-07, 10:14 AM
I'm speaking hypothetically here, and not against the Morehead City team.
I think that the questions you asked don't matter. If any team has an illegal player, whether they mean to or not, they should all suffer the same penalties. Speeding on purpose and speeding because you're not paying attention gets you the same exact fine if you're caught.
Well put....your either legal or illegal...there is no in between or almost legal.
Carolina man :smack:
getting cleared from about 40 teams took over 2 week....but I heard the player go all releases......I'm sure the guy at the coast knows more than someone aaround these parts....lol
He was from Wake County I think?
I guess they did go through the proper channels
RaleighDevil
07-10-07, 09:30 PM
I'm speaking hypothetically here, and not against the Morehead City team.
I think that the questions you asked don't matter. If any team has an illegal player, whether they mean to or not, they should all suffer the same penalties. Speeding on purpose and speeding because you're not paying attention gets you the same exact fine if you're caught.
Those questions do matter in one sense. Someone implied that something shady was going on in this situation and that Roy Waters was going to let it slide. After all, isn't that the way he is, some might say?
My response was that we should get more info before accusing anyone of anything. That's a different subject from deliberate versus accidental violations of the rules.
Carolina Man
07-12-07, 06:33 PM
Those questions do matter in one sense. Someone implied that something shady was going on in this situation and that Roy Waters was going to let it slide. After all, isn't that the way he is, some might say?
My response was that we should get more info before accusing anyone of anything. That's a different subject from deliberate versus accidental violations of the rules.
Mr Waters is guilty of being deliberate in the past, when he zero's in on a certain club or program because he is ticked off at the AD or coach he bombs the living heck out of them.....but guess who pays the ultimate price....THE BALLPLAYERS, who most likely didn't have anything to do with the situation....That's politics and it has no place in Legion Baseball...Enough said...that's all from this side of the tracks
Carolina Man :cuss:
RaleighDevil
07-13-07, 02:03 AM
I talked with the Area I commissioner Thursday night. Everything was done above board. The father did the work to get the releases. The player is home-schooled, and the family will be at the coast until November. Morehead had to take East Wake's 1000 enrollment number.
Don't get the impression I am a fan of Roy Waters. It's just that we need to have the evidence before we hang him.
Carolina Man
07-13-07, 09:51 AM
I talked with the Area I commissioner Thursday night. Everything was done above board. The father did the work to get the releases. The player is home-schooled, and the family will be at the coast until November. Morehead had to take East Wake's 1000 enrollment number.
Don't get the impression I am a fan of Roy Waters. It's just that we need to have the evidence before we hang him.
There is already enought evidence on poor oh Roy to hang him twice...before this ever came up....no joke
Carolina Man :hanged:
LegionVet
07-13-07, 12:50 PM
Let's clear things up, hopefully once and for all.
The player in question is home schooled and during the winter and spring had an address in Knightdale, NC. If he was attending public school he would have been assigned to East Wake High School whic has an enrollment to count of aproximately 1,000. East Wake is not on any Form I as a base or feeder school. No team in his immediate area would be have been able to take the enrollment numbers.
The home in Morehead is not a "summer" home. The players dad has a business with offices in Moorehead and Raleigh and time is split and since the player is home schooled there is no reason to move according to a school calander. The address as of March 31 was used for the determination.
The distance from the address in Knightdale was determined and all teams of a lesser distance were contacted and the player was released. Any team could have said no and acepted the player on their roster. There were approximately 53 teams that OK'd the transfer and the contact for most of the teams was accomplished by the players dad with the only help from the Commisioners being a list of contacts. No teams from Area IV were involved. I should also point out that this process was laid out to the National Chairman in Indianapolis.
I can assure you that everything was open and above board. You would not expect to keep anything quiet that involved 3/4 of the state. I hope this clears everything up.
A note to Carolina Man: "Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say why not." is attributed to George Bernard Shaw. Ted Kennedy used the quote in his eulegy of his brother Bobby.
Bob Figulski
Area I Commisioner
RaleighDevil and LegionVet, thank you for your input. As I stated the other day, I thought we should wait and get the facts, hopefully we can all now move on and get back to baseball scores and homeruns.
Guys, can we now consider this issue closed ???
Baseball Cat
07-13-07, 02:07 PM
Amen!
Red Bear
07-13-07, 02:24 PM
A note to Carolina Man: "Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say why not." is attributed to George Bernard Shaw. Ted Kennedy used the quote in his eulegy of his brother Bobby.
Bob Figulski
Area I Commisioner
Damn that Roy Waters! Bet he had something to do with this confusion!:beatdeadhorse5:
Anytime folks don't have all the facts, there is confusion and rumors. Lets put this issue to rest now, close the thread and get back to discussing baseball.
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