what religion are you?

[LarryD]

i was baptized methodist and went to a methodist church for my early years. middle school and on, i went to an episcopal church. i was married in an episcopal church.

i haven't been to a regular sunday church service in years. we tried up in charlotte, but the closest ones were all baptist. and we're not baptist.

i'm not big on organized religions, i'm finding. i'm deeply spiritual, but not very religious. that make sense?

[Imonlyhuman]

I was raised a Morman but im an athiest now. I got out of the church when I was in my teens. I tried going back just to see how much things have changed and had to walk away again. I have been to several different churches, Baptist, Cathalic, Luthern and a few others. I just couldnt get into any of them.

[magnus]

I was born into Christian Scientist. Not the stupid, fundamentalist ones who let their kids die, the ones who emphasize the power of prayer or even just subconscious positive thought to help overcome and heal.

Went to some Baptist places a while. Current girlfriend goes to a non-denominational so I've gone there a little too. After football's over I'll be back to playing in churches on Sunday again which keeps me from worshipping at one place continuously, or at least that's been a good excuse so far.

[bunkyboy]

makes alot of sense. we/i struggle with where we are going spirtually. i, as well, am not much for every sunday mass. but have deep feelings and convictions as to what i think i need to do. tho, i don't always act on them.
i am catholic.

[lj4three]

i'm more of a vedic hindu. which basically means i look at the world in logical terms, but understand there is a higher power that has never been seen or heard, but can only be realized. i believe in reincarnation and karma- and i feel all organized religions (in general) on earth are just different pathways to realizing the supreme.

[Superfluous_Nut]

agnostic/atheist. went to church/sunday school a bit as a kid, but i don't think i ever bought it. my mom's a devout southern baptist and my dad was a less than devout catholic. my brother is a jehova's witness.

for me, there's a basic idea of what is good behavior and what is bad behavior. i'm not a good person out of fear of punishment or to get some great reward -- i'm a good person because i want to be around other good people. i make it a rule in life not to get involved with bad people. you hang out with bad people, bad shit happens to you -- guaranteed. it's sorta the basis of civilization, really.

[Savio]

Roman Catholic

[BearBryant]

Originally posted by lj4three
i'm more of a vedic hindu. which basically means i look at the world in logical terms, but understand there is a higher power that has never been seen or heard, but can only be realized. i believe in reincarnation and karma- and i feel all organized religions (in general) on earth are just different pathways to realizing the supreme.

i kinda like this one

[VOR]

roman catholic

[RSgal]

I was baptised and raised as a catholic until middle school, then went to a non-denominational church for several years until we moved to NC. Now my parents go to a baptist church, and I do my own thing...namely nothing. Larry, I know what you mean when you say you're spiritual but not religious. You can believe and "be spiritual" without going and getting preached at once a week.

[Fred]

Born and raised strict Southern Baptist. :rolleyes:

I feel that every soul has lessons to learns and tasks to accomplish on earth. If someone dies and they have accomplished all their tasks and learned all their lessons, they go to heaven. If they have not, their soul is reborn into another body here on earth. I believe that earth is hell! The Bible says that God will not destroy earth by water again, it will be by fire! To me, this explains a lot. The feeling of 'daja vu' (or however you spell it)- maybe you HAVE been there before; why you feel an instant connection with some people- maybe you have loved them in a past life; it explains why people/babies die so young- they have accomplished everything that was meant for them to accomplish and learn in this life. I've wondered how a baby can learn or accomplish something in a matter of days or hours, but maybe it was the influence they had on someone else's life that was their purpose. I dunno- I just tend to think that everyone you meet and everything that happens to you has reason. But I still believe in God and that He gives us free will to allow and accept things that come our way. To those that are atheist or agnostic- I respect your belief. But how do you make it from day to day? What gives you hope? What gives you reason? Inner strength is a lot of it, but there is something cleansing about faith and the feeling that it gives you deep down that nobody or nothing can take away.

[lex]

i am roman catholic. sav, lol. yeah, like we be anything else. lol.

i read that God is not "judgemental". Higher Being is all-knowing, i read. mere humans dont have that. too bad.

i sometimes dont like being roman catholic. too overwhelming. :p

[VOR]

Originally posted by lex
i am roman catholic. sav, lol. yeah, like we be anything else. lol.

i read that God is not "judgemental". Higher Being is all-knowing, i read. mere humans dont have that. too bad.

i sometimes dont like being roman catholic. too overwhelming. :p

Yeah but regardless it's always there. Besides outside of the coptics Catholic church has the best dogma.

[Miss tery]

Athiest.....and my response to miss freddie is this:

http://www.extropy.org/ideas/principles.html

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by Fred
To those that are atheist or agnostic- I respect your belief. But how do you make it from day to day? What gives you hope? What gives you reason?

Hope for what? Reason for what?

I don't believe there's a "purpose" to life. I know what makes me happy, tho, and I simply strive to be happy. Some people are happy doing bad things (things that make other people unhappy) and must be removed from society. Luckily, I am happy doing my own thing which includes making my firends and loved ones happy (who in return make me happy).

Some day I'll die. I'm not too into that idea, really, but hey, it's inevitable. When it happens, I'm guessing I won't really know it. Once I'm dead, "I" will no longer exist just like I didn't exist before I was born. The billions of years pre-me didn't affect me adversely, so I'm guessing the billions to come once I die won't be too bad either.

[Inamorata]

I was baptized methodist and went to a methodist church for my early years.


Then went to Southern Baptist church with the ex for years.

Now I also feel very spiritual but i'm not big on organized religions.

There are several reasons organized religion bothers me, here are two...

1. I've found the people who aren't supposed to be judgemental (the congregation) are the worst at be judgemental and snobish.

2. I don't like to form concrete opinions without having information. So naturally I ask lots of questions and ponder about things. Not good, they like to tell you this is the way it is and that is it, no questioning. I have to go with what God puts in my heart and not what a human tells me to believe. Sometimes I will have lots of questions to find my way.

I would love to find a group that studies the Bible. Were you can learn and disscus. In a spiritual way. Have the leader be a minister, someone with training, but also opened minded and patient to let me find my way to God. (not like taking a class in a school)

[gutter]

Southern Baptist here. My sister is very religious and my mom tries. My dad doesn't go to church but he is baptist as well. As far as where I stand I made radical changes in college. I had a professor who was working on his doctorate at Duke. he was a local baptist preacher. He taught me more than anything that it is ok to doubt your beliefs and keep an open mind. And that's what I do. I will never know who is right, and I'm cool with that. If Mis_Tery and Nut want to believe there is no God that is fine with me. If lj wants to believe in reincarnation that's fine with me as well. I personally am batized baptist and I believe in Jesus. I believe in a higher power. but I don't take the bible verbatim. It's a good book. If you followed the bible there is a good chance you will be happy and loved. That's what it's there for in my opinion.

I haven't attended church regularly in about 5 years. I have very liberal views than most conservative baptist and I just don't click with them. I feel sorry for my brother-in-law cause all of my sister's friend's husbands are Promis Keepers. He casue them a cult. They keep bugging him to join. He says it will effect his golf game. They don't laugh.

[Inamorata]

Originally posted by Fred
Born and raised strict Southern Baptist. :rolleyes:

I feel that every soul has lessons to learns and tasks to accomplish on earth. If someone dies and they have accomplished all their tasks and learned all their lessons, they go to heaven. If they have not, their soul is reborn into another body here on earth. I believe that earth is hell! The Bible says that God will not destroy earth by water again, it will be by fire! To me, this explains a lot. The feeling of 'daja vu' (or however you spell it)- maybe you HAVE been there before; why you feel an instant connection with some people- maybe you have loved them in a past life; it explains why people/babies die so young- they have accomplished everything that was meant for them to accomplish and learn in this life. I've wondered how a baby can learn or accomplish something in a matter of days or hours, but maybe it was the influence they had on someone else's life that was their purpose. I dunno- I just tend to think that everyone you meet and everything that happens to you has reason. But I still believe in God and that He gives us free will to allow and accept things that come our way. To those that are atheist or agnostic- I respect your belief. But how do you make it from day to day? What gives you hope? What gives you reason? Inner strength is a lot of it, but there is something cleansing about faith and the feeling that it gives you deep down that nobody or nothing can take away.


---- "I feel that every soul has lessons to learns and tasks to accomplish on earth. If someone dies and they have accomplished all their tasks and learned all their lessons, they go to heaven. "


----". But I still believe in God and that He gives us free will to allow and accept things that come our way. "


Fred, I strong agree with both statements you made. But I struggle with them. If everyone is born with a purpose or task then how can that be free will?? Or does God put us on that path and it's up to us to take it? If we start to stray does he whisper in our ear and we mistake it for our conscience.


----"I just tend to think that everyone you meet and everything that happens to you has reason. "

I agree with you again. Maybe we are Angel helpers. Maybe God whispered something in our ear to direct us so we would meet someone who needs help or when we need someone. We shouldn't always count on God to fix everything. (even though he can) And start to help each other.

[Redcoat]

I am a Jedi.

Our's is the religion of power.
I am in touch with the universe.



Can you feel the force?

[WilliamJ]

I am a backslidden Southern Baptist, however my beliefs are more in line with 7th Day Adventist. I haven't attended service at my church of record in just over a year. I pray and try to meditate everyday. Me and God are on pretty good terms.

[Fro]

Originally posted by Fred
To those that are atheist or agnostic- I respect your belief. But how do you make it from day to day? What gives you hope? What gives you reason?

Huh? How can YOU make it day to day, knowing full well that the very faith you believe in will condemn you in the end? Homosexuality and Christianity don't go together, but on the other hand Christianity preaches forgiveness, peace and "love thy neighbor". Organized religion is contradictory. That's why I'm an Atheist.
I believe aliens came down, fucked a bunch of monkeys and blamo! We're a science experiment for aliens and the earth is their terrarium. :D

[Fred]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
Athiest.....and my response to miss freddie is this:

http://www.extropy.org/ideas/principles.html No need to be a arrogant bitch about it. I said I respected your right for your point of view. Please do the same for me. I am beginning to think the reason people don't like you is not for your beliefs or lack of; but more because you can basically be described as "charm-free"!



Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut


Hope for what? Reason for what?

I don't believe there's a "purpose" to life. If you believe life has no purpose- what gives you motivation to go on; to get out of bed everyday?

Originally posted by Inamorata
Fred, I strong agree with both statements you made. But I struggle with them. If everyone is born with a purpose or task then how can that be free will?? Or does God put us on that path and it's up to us to take it? If we start to stray does he whisper in our ear and we mistake it for our conscience. You just answered your own question. ;)

[reb]

I am God. There is nobody lookin' out for me but me. But the alien thing is interesting.

[builder]

I was born and raised til the age of 16 as a Southern Baptist. That's where it stopped. Now, I'm an athiest in most regards. But I still believe in the powers of good and evil. These are the two things that rule our lives and the universe. I believe in reincarnation and multi-dimensional lives. I believe that as we are here, there are others of our same being experiencing another dimension of the same soul at another place and time.

What keeps me going from day to day is my self-awareness and the knowledge of a collective unity of the people of the Earth. It has nothing to do with faith. Having not seen it, I cannot believe it. The bible to me is more in line with the fairy tales of my youth. A text of stories demostrating how one should live his life through fable and example, not a text to be taken literally.

[Fred]

Originally posted by AfroSmurf


Huh? How can YOU make it day to day, knowing full well that the very faith you believe in will condemn you in the end? Homosexuality and Christianity don't go together Christianity is not our judge. God knows what one can and can't help and He knows what is in our heart.

[Fred]

Ever noticed something? When something horrible happens to MOST self-proclaimed athiests, they pray! They pray for their sick child or parent that has just had a stroke. But if their prayer is not answered in the way they want, they say "See- I told you there was no God!" But if their prayer is answered to their liking, they forget they ever prayed to begin with.

[Fro]

Originally posted by Fred
Ever noticed something? When something horrible happens to MOST self-proclaimed athiests, they pray! They pray for their sick child or parent that has just had a stroke. But if their prayer is not answered in the way they want, they say "See- I told you there was no God!" But if their prayer is answered to their liking, they forget they ever prayed to begin with.

I don't do that.

[builder]

Originally posted by AfroSmurf


I don't do that.

[Fred]

You don't? Celebrate Christmas? Have little Easter breakfast celebrations at your house?

[barracuda]

A true Blue non-practicing Roman Catholic :rolleyes:

[builder]

Originally posted by Fred
Ever noticed something? When something horrible happens to MOST self-proclaimed athiests, they pray! They pray for their sick child or parent that has just had a stroke. But if their prayer is not answered in the way they want, they say "See- I told you there was no God!" But if their prayer is answered to their liking, they forget they ever prayed to begin with.

Originally posted by Fred


Liar.


Originally posted by Fred
[B]You don't? Celebrate Christmas? Have little Easter breakfast celebrations at your house?

Never does the thought of Jesus disrupt those celebrations of family and friends.

I don't need nor will I defend my beliefs. I don't have to. They're mine. Anyone that doesn't understand that never really grasped the full ramifications of FAITH. :rolleyes:

[Fro]

Originally posted by Fred
You don't? Celebrate Christmas? Have little Easter breakfast celebrations at your house?


Celebrate Christmas? Yes. Only because everyone and their momma has that day off and you're pummeled to death by over commercialization of a holiday meant for corporations, not Christ. C'mon man. Celebrating Christmas has never been about celebrating Christ. At least in our lifetime.

I don't do Easter. Ask how many kids know the true meaning of Easter, and their likely to tell you a fucking bunny rabbit laid a bunch of colored eggs around the yard and they have to find them.

Oh, and I don't pray.

[muff_spelunker]

Originally posted by AfroSmurf
Organized religion is contradictory. That's why I'm an Atheist.

I don't fully understand this reasoning. If you don't like organized religion it doesn't mean you have to disregard a higher power. I don't like churches and organized religion either, but I still believe in God. Just because I can't see him doesn't mean he doesn't exist. I can't see the wind either, but I see the effects of it and so I believe it is there. I just choose not to go sit in a building some jo-blo decided to build to spew his point of view and hear how evil I am and how God despises and hates me. My God is a god of love and I truly believe he loves all of us as we are his creation.

I like the monkey viewpoint tho. Never thought of that one. Sure, why not?

[PantherPaul]

I was raised a Methodist, (baptised when I was 9 or so) but we were not a regular church going family. I have a hard time with the Southern Baptist mentality. Your fry in hell until you ive yourself to god. Up until 3 years back we attended Lutheren church and liked it as they were very laid back and open towards alot of people and didn't seem to judge people due to their sexual orientation or think less of you in you were a woman (not much role in the churchwifes big issue) Found that the case last year when we started attending a Presbeterian church (not sure which type of Presbaterian) I want to start going to a non denomenational (sp) church that is more civic minded.

[builder]

Originally posted by muff_spelunker
If you don't like organized religion it doesn't mean you have to disregard a higher power.

Even athiests can believe in a higher power. It's the power of the mind and the subconscious.

[NormanNiner]

Originally posted by LarryD
i was baptized methodist and went to a methodist church for my early years. middle school and on, i went to an episcopal church. i was married in an episcopal church.

i haven't been to a regular sunday church service in years. we tried up in charlotte, but the closest ones were all baptist. and we're not baptist.

i'm not big on organized religions, i'm finding. i'm deeply spiritual, but not very religious. that make sense?

This is scarily similar to my situation. Grew up methodist, married in an episcopal church, also haven't been to a regular Sunday service in years. I share the same disinterest in organized religion. I have faith and believe in God and everything, but I don't find myself drawn to worhsip at a service every week.

[Fro]

Originally posted by muff_spelunker
I don't fully understand this reasoning. If you don't like organized religion it doesn't mean you have to disregard a higher power.

That's my point. I don't believe God exists. I'll buy into there might be a "higher power" thing. It's better than saying God is absolute. But that "higher Power" just might be aliens checking the terrarium. :D

I think we're all going to have to get high before we get any deeper in discussion... :reb:

[muff_spelunker]

I guess I didn't use the correct term. By higher power I meant God. Afro said he didn't like organized religion and that was why he was atheist. I don't comprehend why not liking church would be a reason for not believing in God.

'fro, you explained how the human population exists, but what about all the vegetation, animals, minerals, the Earth, the universe, the aliens that impregnated the monkeys?

Also, what are your thoughts on eastern and native american way of worship?

[Tiorted Snoil]

one word: science

[Fro]

Originally posted by muff_spelunker
'fro, you explained how the human population exists, but what about all the vegetation, animals, minerals, the Earth, the universe, the aliens that impregnated the monkeys?

Vegetation, animals, blah blah blah...All evolved the way monkeys did (do).

Originally posted by muff_spelunker
Also, what are your thoughts on eastern and native american way of worship?

Which eastern religion? Native American, I don't really know enough to give an opinion.

[muff_spelunker]

Originally posted by AfroSmurf
Vegetation, animals, blah blah blah...All evolved the way monkeys did (do).

Evolved from what?

[Fro]

Lesbian aliens.

[muff_spelunker]

Okay, I see you're not in the mood. Time to take your ADD meds or break out the bong.

[Imonlyhuman]

Even though Im an atheist, my higher power is LIFE. I strive to be a good and loveing person. I listen to people and I try to help people that need it. I love and care for animals because the co=exist with us. I celabrate Christmas and Easter not because of the religious part of them. I celabrate because it brings my family together. Especially Christmas. We all come together regardless of who believes what, to talk about our accomplishments of the past year, the downfalls we have had and to wish the next year to be better then the last. We have many different religions in the family and we do not preach to one another about who's is better and who is going to go to hell because of this or that. The Jewish dont complain that I have a manger scene for the Christians in the family and the Christians dont complain that I have the Candles for the Jewish and nobody complains about the Medican Wheel I have for the Native American. All in all I respect everyones faith. Easter for my family was pretty much just another day with a little added extras to it. If I was to get a Christmas bonus I would take it not because it was Christmas, I would take it because to me the company was able to do something for the workers and I look at it as they are thanking us for it. I love life and thats what keeps me going. I plant a flower and I watch it grow because of my own hand. I care for that flower to make sure it grows strong. If I chose not to water and feed it, it will die, just like my life if I chose not to water and feed it with things that make me happy and strong.

[Fro]

Originally posted by muff_spelunker
Okay, I see you're not in the mood. Time to take your ADD meds or break out the bong.

Yeah. It's baked chicken day! :vfingers:

[SilverSurfer]

I was raised a Methodist, but I haven't gone to church except for weddings or funerals since my parents quit making me go when I was 15 years old. I see no point in it. I believe in God, but see no reason to associate with a bunch of people I don't like or will judge me for stuff I do, and they probably do worse stuff behind closed doors. I'm not saying that everybody that goes to church is like that, but a lot of them are.

Besides, I'm usually hung over on Sundays, or have a tailgate party to go to. Nothing closer to God to me than being out of doors watching football. :)

[APPLEJACK]

BAPTIST

[barracuda]

Originally posted by builder
I was born and raised til the age of 16 as a Southern Baptist. That's where it stopped. Now, I'm an athiest in most regards. But I still believe in the powers of good and evil. These are the two things that rule our lives and the universe. I believe in reincarnation and multi-dimensional lives. I believe that as we are here, there are others of our same being experiencing another dimension of the same soul at another place and time.

What keeps me going from day to day is my self-awareness and the knowledge of a collective unity of the people of the Earth. It has nothing to do with faith. Having not seen it, I cannot believe it. The bible to me is more in line with the fairy tales of my youth. A text of stories demostrating how one should live his life through fable and example, not a text to be taken literally.

So do you believe in the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny?

[builder]

Originally posted by barracuda


So do you believe in the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny?

I used to believe in the Easter Bunny. But he's dead now. And the tooth fairy, he could be any number of my friends.

[barracuda]

Originally posted by builder


I used to believe in the Easter Bunny. But he's dead now. And the tooth fairy, he could be any number of my friends.
Your a sick man.

[builder]

Afro posted that one first, I believe.

[Fro]

Yeah...like on the first charlotte.com board.

[builder]

Well excuse me Afro. I found it funny and thought it was fitting. Sheesh....go change your tampon or something. :rolleyes:

[Sally]

How Easter eggs are made:

[builder]

:roflmao:

[QueenCityHillbilly]

I was born and raised methodist. I try to attend church every Sunday, and to be honest, I'm really not sure why. I don't live an entirely Christian life. In fact, for 2 weeks in a row, I went to early service, came back to the house, filled up my cooler, tailgated and drank lots of beer then went to the game. There's even mornings when I had pre-marital sex, then went to church. I don't go to say "I went to church." I don't go because "I feel better about all of the bad things I do." I think it's because I was just raised that way. I enjoy getting up on a beautiful Sunday and go to church. My grandfather is a retired methodist minister so I go and hear him preach whenever he does. It's been a part of my family since the day I was born.

[HighPoint49er]

Looks like I'm a distinct minority here, a Presbyterian. Have always attended the same church. I'm sort of like Larry, more spiritiual than religious although I am active in activities at my church. I served as an Associate Deacon for 6 years, moderator of them for 4 years, now in 2nd year as a deacon and moderator of this year's stewardship campaign.

I will say that I found great comfort in my church after my heart attack and after the wife moved out. It has helped make things better.

And another reason for getting up on Sunday mornings is what is across the street from my church...
http://www.krispykreme.com/images/glazedtopper3.jpg
http://www.krispykreme.com/images/hotlighanim.gif The light is always on when we get to church.

[Sally]

I find it interesting that some proclaim to be atheists but still argue/discuss whether or not there is a god or a higher being. I thought atheists absolutely dismiss the notion and do not even venture to discuss. Agnostics, on the other hand, are what you guys seem to be.

Anyway...I was raised Baptist but I no longer attend. Religion tends to confuse me. Doctrine, established my man, tends to warp thinking.

Yes, I am a practicing, spiritual person. I pray daily, study daily readings and have my own Recovery Bible that means the world to me.

[builder]

Originally posted by Sally
I find it interesting that some proclaim to be atheists but still argue/discuss whether or not there is a god or a higher being.

I do not use the word 'being' to describe the powers I recognize.

[NormanNiner]

Originally posted by HighPoint49er
Looks like I'm a distinct minority here, a Presbyterian. Have always attended the same church. I'm sort of like Larry, more spiritiual than religious although I am active in activities at my church. I served as an Associate Deacon for 6 years, moderator of them for 4 years, now in 2nd year as a deacon and moderator of this year's stewardship campaign.

I will say that I found great comfort in my church after my heart attack and after the wife moved out. It has helped make things better.

And another reason for getting up on Sunday mornings is what is across the street from my church...
http://www.krispykreme.com/images/glazedtopper3.jpg
http://www.krispykreme.com/images/hotlighanim.gif The light is always on when we get to church.

So that Krispy Kreme is still there on Main Street? I used to go there in the old high school days and load up on chocolate-covered creme filled donuts. Those things were like crack cocaine.

[Fro]

Originally posted by builder
Well excuse me Afro. I found it funny and thought it was fitting. Sheesh....go change your tampon or something. :rolleyes:

I wasn't cracking on you buttfucker. :p

[builder]

Originally posted by AfroSmurf


I wasn't cracking on you buttfucker. :p

buttfuckEE. Asswipe.

[HighPoint49er]

Originally posted by NormanNiner
So that Krispy Kreme is still there on Main Street? I used to go there in the old high school days and load up on chocolate-covered creme filled donuts. Those things were like crack cocaine.
Yes, Brett it is. Currently going through a second remodeling. The original counter and bar stools are on display at the High Point Museum.

[tamera67]

Originally posted by QueenCityHillbilly
I was born and raised methodist. I try to attend church every Sunday, and to be honest, I'm really not sure why. I don't live an entirely Christian life. In fact, for 2 weeks in a row, I went to early service, came back to the house, filled up my cooler, tailgated and drank lots of beer then went to the game. There's even mornings when I had pre-marital sex, then went to church. I don't go to say "I went to church." I don't go because "I feel better about all of the bad things I do." I think it's because I was just raised that way. I enjoy getting up on a beautiful Sunday and go to church. My grandfather is a retired methodist minister so I go and hear him preach whenever he does. It's been a part of my family since the day I was born.

I thought part of the reason we went to church is to ask for forgiveness? I mean, I don't expect every one who does shit all week long to think that all they have to do is get up on Sunday and sit and mumble a few words, sing a couple of hymns, pray a bit, say amen, and BOOM, you are forgiven. It goes a little deeper than that.

I try to go to church as frequently as I am able to, and I feel very spiritual, and I do feel that there is a God, someone who is watching me, protecting me, guiding me, and I pray every night to Him, but I am also human, and I don't think God banishes everyone to hell who has premarital sex, drink, look at porn, and all the other things that a hardline Baptist would condemn people for. My God is a forgiving god, who understands. And I keep contact with Him. Now, on the other hand, if I were fornicating and drinking all around town and not giving a second thought to anything, then, yes, I think there is a problem with doing those things.

I go to church because it makes me feel good, I feel that I am giving back to my Lord, and if I can get up and go to work every single day, I can at least get up and go to church for an hour and a half one day a week. Plus, I just feel like my week starts out on a better foot when I start Monday off singing a hymn that I heard on Sunday and feel that I have re-connected with God after a long, hectic week. And my spirituality is the only thing I have to turn to when I feel like knocking the crapola out of co-workers.

Oh, by the way, I am Presbyterian, baptized in a Presbyterian church, my son in the same Presbyterian church which I was introduced.

[muff_spelunker]

I have an officemate that is very religious. She's in church almost everyday of the week, listens to tapes at work, her social life revolves around people of the church, and so on. Every decision she makes is based on what the preacher says. Her husband is hardly ever home, takes off and leaves her and their kids without letting them know he's gone, where he's going, or when he'll be back. Comes home all hours of the night. She wants to leave him but says that the Lord will let her know when to go. She believes that she must stay with this scumbag because she is an agent for the Lord and perhaps her husband will be converted to the "light". I told her that that way of thinking was fine for her because she is an adult and can handle the rejection from her husband, but to try to think of her daughters and the impact his behavior is having on them. She says they know he is doing wrong and understand. They are 7 and 1.5 years old.

This kind of thinking scares me. People that are so fanatical about religion that they lose all common sense and self-respect.

[builder]

Originally posted by muff_spelunker
This kind of thinking scares me. People that are so fanatical about religion that they lose all common sense and self-respect.

To some extent...that's why 9/11 happened too.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Fred, I'm not sure I understand your premise. Why would I have a hard time waking up in the morning (aside from general laziness)?

It seems to me that religion is akin to a "scoring system". Imagine life is a game. Different religions score life differently. I take the view that the game is more important than the score.

I wonder why a religious person wouldn't want to "cash out" once they're ahead. If heaven is so great, why is it so bad to send somebody there? That seems to indicate an inherent lack of faith.

[dig-it]

Originally posted by muff_spelunker
I have an officemate that is very religious. She's in church almost everyday of the week, listens to tapes at work, her social life revolves around people of the church, and so on. Every decision she makes is based on what the preacher says. Her husband is hardly ever home, takes off and leaves her and their kids without letting them know he's gone, where he's going, or when he'll be back. Comes home all hours of the night. She wants to leave him but says that the Lord will let her know when to go. She believes that she must stay with this scumbag because she is an agent for the Lord and perhaps her husband will be converted to the "light". I told her that that way of thinking was fine for her because she is an adult and can handle the rejection from her husband, but to try to think of her daughters and the impact his behavior is having on them. She says they know he is doing wrong and understand. They are 7 and 1.5 years old.

This kind of thinking scares me. People that are so fanatical about religion that they lose all common sense and self-respect.
Muff maybe she is why he is like that.

[Fro]

Originally posted by dig-it
Muff maybe she is why he is like that.

Agreed. She sounds just lovely.

[Stu_Pidaso]

You should leave a sticky note on her monitor.

"Go ahead and leave him. Jesus"

[Fro]

HAHA! Classic.

[hasbeens99]

WOW. This thread is fascinating to me. I love to hear people talk about their beliefs. I'm really intrigued by it. :)

I was raised as a Methodist in the south, but like a lot of people I quit going as soon as Mom stopped forcing me to go.

I went to my wife's church before we were married, but it seemed like going to a business meeting to me most of the time and I soured on it. We tried a few others, but they were either the quintessential hypocritical socialites or had practices so strange we nearly bolted from the room.

I had pretty much written off church until my wife started going to the one we go to now. She went for about 6 months before I joined her.

Technically, my church is Southern Baptist. But I went there for three years before I even knew that. We are NOT the traditional Southern Baptist church.

Our church believes in open acceptance, and we practice it. They believe in the idea of separating someone's actions from their value, because it's biblical. Our church doctrine is not based on that of the Southern Baptist Convention. It is based on what the staff believes is the bible says. The bible and Jesus are the only two spiritual authorities our church recognizes.

I love my church and my wife and I both serve actively. I'm on the board of trustees and I teach two classes; one on baptism and another on relational evangelism. My wife heads up the offering counters team and leads a women's small group. But we do not put our faith in Clovis Hills Community Church. Our faith is placed in Jesus and our trust in the bible. If we feel like our church begins to deviate from either, we will leave.

The main reason I go to church is the people. I get to experience being surrounded by lots of people who know, love and accept me every week, and I crave that.

I guess my answer to your question, Larry, is that I'm a Christian. I'm not really into denominations. The way I look at it, as long as we agree on the basics, we're all on the same team. Sure we have differences, and we can debate those, but I'm not going to say my church is 'better' or more 'holy' than another because of secondary issues. It's divisive, and the bible speaks against it.

The way I see it, the Christian faith has two phases. Phase one is down here on earth. I believe God has given each of us a purpose--a mission in life, and He's equipped all of us with special gifts to accomplish that mission. The bible also gives us instructions for how to live the best life possible. But like any set of instructions, you can choose to follow them or ignore them. You will experience consequences either way. I also believe that our time here is to be used to get reacquainted with God and develop a growing relationship with Him.

Phase two is the afterlife. At some point, the bible says we'll all be subject to God's judgment. Either you can try to pass His standards on your own, or you can depend on Jesus' sacrifice to get you in. Again, your choice to make, but the choice has to be made on this side of death. If you make it, you get to live with Him forever. If you don't, you get to live without Him forever.

[tamera67]

very nicely said, hasbeen!

[Braves]

I was raised Catholic. Quit going to church as soon as I could...but it stayed with me for a long time.

I started to attend a non denominational church about ten years ago. At first I was reluctant, then I kept waiting for them to screw up... it never has and I have a peace about myself I never had before in my life. Personally, I don't care what others believe in, but mine works for me.

I haven't changed my lifestyle or my personality. The only thing that I have changed is the peace and comfort I live in now.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut
Fred, I'm not sure I understand your premise. Why would I have a hard time waking up in the morning (aside from general laziness)?

It seems to me that religion is akin to a "scoring system". Imagine life is a game. Different religions score life differently. I take the view that the game is more important than the score.

I wonder why a religious person wouldn't want to "cash out" once they're ahead. If heaven is so great, why is it so bad to send somebody there? That seems to indicate an inherent lack of faith.

Nut, I don't believe in organized religion. I think what i believe is a combo of many different religions. The reason I mentioned getting up everyday is because i know that I have a promise waiting for me one day and that gives me motivation. As far as "cashing out'- again, I believe that we are here to learn tasks and accomplish deeds. If we 'cash out' before our time, we must come back and try again.

I was impressed with you mentioning staying with good people in the post earlier. Most TRUE athiests that I have met are some of the most genuine people I have met. They try to live right and follow "The Golden Rule." Maybe the fact that you believe that this life is all you have does motivate you to live the best life possible. Miss Tery makes me so mad I could choke her sometime, but no matter how much flack she gets about being an athiest, she stands firm about her beliefs (or lack of) and you have to respect that. And I am sure that away from TBR, she is one of the most pleasant people you could meet. But I personally believe there is danger in putting too much faith in ones self.

Others who claim to be athiest only mention it when it is the popular thing to be at the time. If being a Morman was the TBR-accepted thing of the week, they'd be running out and buying the Book of Morman.

[LarryD]

i'm glad you said it, sally. i was going to say that the atheists (except fro) were more agnostic sounding.

i liked saying i was agnostic for a while. i still may be -- not sure.

i've always had a hard time believing in something that's not there or that i don't have enough information about. i hate hitching my wagon to a dying horse, so i tend to overanalyze situations. i just don't want to be wrong.

however, sometimes, you have to have faith that everything that's happening is for the best. i believe that we're all connected somehow (anyone into quantum physics?) and that we're a LONG way away from figurign it all out.

here's what i've always struggled with:

thousands of years ago, man didn't know/understand as much about his world as we do today. therefore, they invented gods to explain everything from why volcanoes erupted to why thunder is loud. over the years, though, some courageous people challenged those beliefs and came up with scientific reasons for volcanoes, thunder and nearly everything else.

however, we are still left with some basic questions. namely, where did we come from and what happens when we die? those two questions will not be answered in my lifetime. i know that.

therefore, my reasons are just as good as yours or anyone elses. just because christianity has been around for hundreds of years doesn't make their answers to either of those questions any more valid than the ones the hindus have (or the native americans, or the ... )

and, fro, i think there's a lot of validity to your theory. you may have oversimplified it, but i think that we've been visited. for a while, i thought that maybe we visited ourselves through some sort of time travel.

i've always thought that i was more eastern/native american in my beliefs. i believe we're all connected. i believe in esp. i believe in the power of the mind.

anyway, i think that organized religion lays a good, safe foundation for kids -- teaches them the basic right from wrong (no matter which religion) and (like it did with man thousands ofd years ago) is an easy answer for explaining myriad mysteries. once they get to be about 15 or so, let them decide for themselves what they believe. life's a journey and i don't want someone just showing me a photo album and saying, "here it is! you don't need to go and figure it out!"

[Superfluous_Nut]

Fred, I think there are many atheists out there that are actively anti-religion. They're religiously anti-religious. I have nothing against the idea of religion, but the organized practice can have its faults as most people seem to agree. They may be minor -- like how a church decides to spend its money -- and they may be major -- like the systematic concealment of pederast priests.

I go to church on Easter Sunday with my fiancee and her family. It's what they do and I want to be accepted into their family. I find it incredibly boring and completely un-enlightening. But it makes her and her family happy for me to be there, so I dress up and go. But I sometimes wonder if I shouldn't go out of respect for the people who are there. I mean, when I invite people over for a party, I don't want anybody showing up that doesn't want to be there. Ya know?

In general, I think religion has done far more good than bad. If people want to believe in something to keep them happy or on the right path, I'm all for it -- so long as it doesn't affect people who don't want it.

[Fred]

I don't hesitate to say that more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.

[Fred]

Nut- Do you not miss the feeling that there is a spirit living inside you that you can always turn to? God knows I have lived my life far from the way it should have been lived but I have never doubted His existence. He has also proven Himself numerous times. When I try to live my life my way and struggle and fight my way through; I fall flat on my face. Again and again, I have hit my knees, crying like a baby and turned things over to Him and asked him to show me the right direction, to slam the wrong doors shut, to open the right ones and to give me the sense to know the difference. Without failure, He does it. It may not be a miracle like turning water into wine, but it couldn't be more obvious to you if it were.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Fred
I don't hesitate to say that more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.

I believe you're absolutely right, Fred, and that's an indicator of why I believe that as long as people are involved in running religion, it's going to be flawed. People are corruptible. They need accountability. If I'm not mistaken, the circumstances that produced all that death were almost uniformly by people following a religious figurehead with no accountability. From the Pope or bishops that fueled the Crusades all the way up to 9/11/01, the pattern is the same. People need to be very, very careful what they put their faith in. No one on this earth is above being questioned. And I think that same principle even goes for God.

[LarryD]

Originally posted by Fred
I don't hesitate to say that more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other cause.

we would not be as advanced as we are today if it weren't for religion.

[hasbeens99]

Hey, Larry? Let me preface this by saying I have no accusatory or antagonistic intentions by asking this...

Who/what do you believe Jesus is/was?

[lj4three]

Originally posted by hasbeens99


No one on this earth is above being questioned. And I think that same principle even goes for God.

I'm glad you said that, hasbeens. My "religion" (i dont like to classify myself in stone as one particular relgion, so i'm using the term loosely) is not a "do this, and you will get this" religion. I believe that religion should be about knowledge, understanding and comprehension of the world around you- and your job is to make the best decision in those given circumstances. I value the Bible as much as the Torah as much as the Bhagavad-Gita, and so on. But this is a quote (i dont memorize religious text, but I always keep this in my wallet) that I think really shows what I believe:

"Discrimination, wisdom, non-delusion, forgiveness, truth, control over the senses and the mind, joy and sorrow, evolution and dissolutin, fear and fearlessness. Non-violence, equanimity, contentment, austerity, charity, fame and disrepute, these diverse feelings are of Me alone. I am the origin of all; from Me all (the whole creation) proceeds. Out of compassion for them I, dwelling in their inner hearts, dispel the darkness born of ignorance by the shining lamp of wisdom."

I think that carries into any "religion."

[LarryD]

Originally posted by hasbeens99
Hey, Larry? Let me preface this by saying I have no accusatory or antagonistic intentions by asking this...

Who/what do you believe Jesus is/was?

well, its easier to say that i don't think he was the son of god. that's just too "out there" for me to legitimize.

i like the mystical aspects of it though and jesus exists best as an example -- similar to how the greek and roman gods were given human emotions and qualities -- of how we can live our lives. i think of jesus more as a mystical character than anything, i guess.

it's strange, but on a day-to-day basis, i believe more in angels (spirits of my dead friends and family) than anything else. i believe that they guide me with perfect knowledge and love. they keep me away from harm, unless it's necessary for me to learn from. i, like fred, believe that we have lessons to learn in life and that we serve unknown purposes for others.

i totally believe in kharma and that everything happens for a reason. in fact, i say that at least twice a day.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by Fred
Nut- Do you not miss the feeling that there is a spirit living inside you that you can always turn to?

No, not really.

God knows I have lived my life far from the way it should have been lived but I have never doubted His existence. He has also proven Himself numerous times. When I try to live my life my way and struggle and fight my way through; I fall flat on my face. Again and again, I have hit my knees, crying like a baby and turned things over to Him and asked him to show me the right direction, to slam the wrong doors shut, to open the right ones and to give me the sense to know the difference. Without failure, He does it. It may not be a miracle like turning water into wine, but it couldn't be more obvious to you if it were.

Somebody mentioned earlier that even atheists pray when the shit hits the fan. They implied a connection between desperation and religion. It's an interesting idea. I wonder if there are particular character traits that predispose somebody to religious belief...

I am not very emotional, which means that I react less to my highs and lows. Perhaps I've never reached the low point where my desperation over-rides my reliance on logic and reasoning (not to imply that your beliefs are illogical or unreasonable). Perhaps, as well, I've never reached the high point where I've got so much joy that it could only be God rubbing my tummy.

I'm also not goal oriented, meaning that I'm not usually concerned with getting to a particular place in life by a particular time. I don't know what the future holds and I'm cool with it. Hell, I've been only semi-employed for like 2 years now and I'm really not looking to change it. I'm curious if religious people think in terms of acheiving goals.

[LarryD]

Originally posted by lj4three
i dont like to classify myself in stone as one particular relgion ... I believe that religion should be about knowledge, understanding and comprehension of the world around you- and your job is to make the best decision in those given circumstances.


that fits me, too.

[Chip]

I'm a non-theist/logical positivist. What this is, is more of a humanistic approach to nothingness. I believe in the will of man, the inherent goodness of man, and science as a means of proof.

Here's a couple of good quotes from Sir Bertrand Russell (a famous 20th Century scholar and philosopher) which kind of sum up my (non)beliefs:

"I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence."

"Christians hold that their faith does good, but other faiths do harm. At any rate, they hold this about the Communist faith. What I wish to maintain is that all faiths do harm. We may define 'faith' as a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. When there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith.' We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. "

"It is not by prayer and humility that you cause things to go as you wish, but by acquiring a knowledge of natural laws. The power you acquire in this way is much greater and more reliable than that formerly supposed to be acquired by prayer, because you never could tell whether your prayer would be favorably heard in Heaven. The power of prayer, moreover, had recognized limits; it would have been impious to ask too much. But the power of science has no known limits. We were told that faith could remove mountains, but no one believed it; we are now told that the atomic bomb can remove mountains, and everyone believes it. "

"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed."

[lj4three]

Originally posted by Chip

"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed."

:applause:

do you believe in a greater power/God- if not, why?

[gutter]

I've noticed that athiest want to push their agenda as bad as non-athiest. Not saying anyone is worse than the other, just making a general statement.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by gutter
I've noticed that athiest want to push their agenda as bad as non-athiest. Not saying anyone is worse than the other, just making a general statement.

anyone who feels strongly about certain beliefs has an inherent need to prove his/her beliefs- its human nature. alas, where did we get that human nature??:)

i dont normally talk like that- but after working in a bldg that houses yuppy architects, i cant help it.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by lj4three
I value the Bible as much as the Torah as much as the Bhagavad-Gita, and so on.

LJ, have you read any of those books from cover to cover? Again, no ill will is intended. I'm just trying to understand what you base your individual beliefs on.

But this is a quote (i dont memorize religious text, but I always keep this in my wallet) that I think really shows what I believe:

"Discrimination, wisdom, non-delusion, forgiveness, truth, control over the senses and the mind, joy and sorrow, evolution and dissolutin, fear and fearlessness. Non-violence, equanimity, contentment, austerity, charity, fame and disrepute, these diverse feelings are of Me alone. I am the origin of all; from Me all (the whole creation) proceeds. Out of compassion for them I, dwelling in their inner hearts, dispel the darkness born of ignorance by the shining lamp of wisdom."

Another question: is the 'Me' in this quote God or individual human consciousness/will?

[lj4three]

Originally posted by hasbeens99


LJ, have you read any of those books from cover to cover? Again, no ill will is intended. I'm just trying to understand what you base your individual beliefs on.


I have read the Gita cover to cover, as i'm reading the Vedas in my spare time. I have read many portions of the old and new testament- but not cover to cover. Basically, my beliefs stem from vedic hinduism- but thats the beauty of "vedic hinduism"- its not about religion and deities and mandates- its about knowledge and understanding and self-realiziation.

Originally posted by hasbeens99

Another question: is the 'Me' in this quote God or individual human consciousness/will?

God/Supreme. I dont see God as an entity- God is just there, everything is God.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by LarryD
well, its easier to say that i don't think he was the son of god. that's just too "out there" for me to legitimize.

i like the mystical aspects of it though and jesus exists best as an example -- similar to how the greek and roman gods were given human emotions and qualities -- of how we can live our lives. i think of jesus more as a mystical character than anything, i guess.


Okay. How would you respond to claim that most major belief systems (Islam, Judaism, Budhism, etc.) acknowledge Jesus as at least having existed as a human being in the early first century?

Again, I mean not to be antagonistic or 'pushy', so please tell me if I start to become so. This is my favorite topic of discussion, and I sometimes have a tendency to get a little carried away. The last thing I want to do is wear out my welcome here at TBR.

it's strange, but on a day-to-day basis, i believe more in angels (spirits of my dead friends and family) than anything else. i believe that they guide me with perfect knowledge and love. they keep me away from harm, unless it's necessary for me to learn from.

It seems to me, based on my understanding of what you've written so far, that this idea sort of contradicts your earlier statements of having a hard time not being able to believe what you cannot see, etc. If that is correct, do you have any evidence to base this belief on? Have you had a supernatural experience with a lost loved one?

I promise I'm not trying to patronize you. As a Christian, I believe in supernatural encounters!

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by lj4three
God/Supreme. I dont see God as an entity- God is just there, everything is God.

Okay. Is that a common theme throughout Hinduism, or am I mistaken?

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by gutter
I've noticed that athiest want to push their agenda as bad as non-athiest. Not saying anyone is worse than the other, just making a general statement.

That's been my experience as well, and I think I know why. The difference is motivation. Philosophically, an atheist has nothing to 'push'. By default, a lack of submission to a higher power leaves the self at the top of the spiritual and philosophical food chain. An atheists motivation, if any, then becomes to 'enlighten' those who are misguided into following myths rather than trusting in their own ability.

A believer of divine existence and influence, let's say, probably believes he or she has found a better way to live at the very least, and at most, believes 'converting' others will save them from damnation, destruction, torment, etc. The motivation behind each group is very different.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Chip
I'm a non-theist/logical positivist. What this is, is more of a humanistic approach to nothingness. I believe in the will of man, the inherent goodness of man, and science as a means of proof.

Here's a couple of good quotes from Sir Bertrand Russell (a famous 20th Century scholar and philosopher) which kind of sum up my (non)beliefs:

Chip, if you place your faith in human will, logic, and positivism, I don't think Sir Bertrand Russell's writings are truly indicative of your beliefs, based on what you posted. You're much more open-minded than that.

What I see in Sir Bertrand's writing are the following principles:

1. If I haven't experienced it, or seen it proved in a lab, it does not exist, nor will it ever happen.

2. Faith is based on pure emotional denial, with absolutely no credible evidence to support it whatsoever.

3. Faith has limits; science does not.

4. Anyone who believes in and depends on the existence of the divine/supernatural is weak-minded.

5. Anyone who claims to have faith is truly in a state of denial. Deep down they know their beliefs are based on myth, and when confronted they will lash out emotionally at first, but eventually admit it, at least to themselves.

Based on his assertions, the following people are "weak minded and contemptible":
Winston Churchill
George Washington
Alexander Graham Bell
Thomas Edison
Ghandi
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

These are just a few off the top of my head but there are many, many more.

[builder]

Originally posted by lj4three


i dont normally talk like that- but after working in a bldg that houses yuppy architects, i cant help it.

:bird6: I just want you to know that I wasn't like those other yuppy architects. :D

[LarryD]

Originally posted by hasbeens99


Okay. How would you respond to claim that most major belief systems (Islam, Judaism, Budhism, etc.) acknowledge Jesus as at least having existed as a human being in the early first century?


i'm sure he was probably a real person, but i don't think he was the son of (a) god. that's just too weird and if you buy into that, then you have to buy into EVERYTHING. i can accept the message (be good), but i don't need all the hocus-pocus to scare me into it.


Originally posted by hasbeens99


It seems to me, based on my understanding of what you've written so far, that this idea sort of contradicts your earlier statements of having a hard time not being able to believe what you cannot see, etc. If that is correct, do you have any evidence to base this belief on? Have you had a supernatural experience with a lost loved one?

yeah, like i said, it was strange. the good thing about having your own set of beliefs is that you don't play on anyone's team, so there's no inherent recruiting. i think that some people try to get more people believing what they believe, just so they have company and, if they recruit enough company, they are somehow more legitimized.

kinda like the car commercials that say, "we've sold more tucks than anyone in the southeast" or a certain product that bills itself as the "top-selling brand" -- those claims say nothing about how good the product is, just that a lot of people get suckered into buying it. maybe they had a good ad campaign.

re: angels/guiding spirits/whatever...

my belief is purely based on a load of circumstatial evidence: i have been through too much stuff and have come out clean for there NOT to be a reason. i've asked for help in the most difficult of situations and have been guided to the exact right solution. i've been calmed at times of great pain.

plus, they are comforting thoughts.

[magnus]

Personally, the agnostic part of it does make sense because I don't feel that things are exactly as they are in the bible, nor should some yokel from thousands of years ago trying to inflict moral code into a religious document be able to be right (eating pork, homosexuality, etc) on all things. There are a lot of contradictory things in there, and some feel that science contradicts as well.

But that's nature. And whether you believe a story that God just did it like it wasn't a thing, or if it was done as the scientists say, does that keep God from doing as such?

I don't pretend to understand God and attempt to be arrogant enough to think I or we were made in His image. I don't really even think I'm able to put together an opinion yet on where Christ, Muhammad, and others fit into this. And I don't rely on religion to "scare" or guilt me into doing the right thing.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Chip
"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed." Larry mentioned Karma. I have never seen karma, but I know it exists because I have felt it (rather- been the victim on it.) By the same token, I know God exists because I have felt Him. I see nothing feeble about faith.

Originally posted by LarryD
i'm sure he was probably a real person, but i don't think he was the son of (a) god. that's just too weird and if you buy into that, then you have to buy into EVERYTHING. i can accept the message (be good), but i don't need all the hocus-pocus to scare me into it.

Larry, for some reason, this statement surprises me more than any of the others I have read.

[Fred]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson
Personally, the agnostic part of it does make sense because I don't feel that things are exactly as they are in the bible, nor should some yokel from thousands of years ago trying to inflict moral code into a religious document be able to be right (eating pork, homosexuality, etc) on all things. There are a lot of contradictory things in there, and some feel that science contradicts as well. Remember Mag, Christ paid the price for our salvation making a lot of the Old Testament laws no longer valid. As far as the Bible, it was dictated by God but written by man and has been translated repeatedly over and over by man; therefore fallible.

[LarryD]

Originally posted by Fred
Larry, for some reason, this statement surprises me more than any of the others I have read.

well, let me try to clarify it...

i think that there may have been a guy named jesus who did good, but his legend grew larger than his actions. doesn't islam believe that jesus was a great guy, but not the son of god? it's a little weird to believe, really -- i mean, do you really think that some woman got pregnant from a god? that's just like greek, norse or roman mythology. i think this is christian mythology. just stories for kids.

like i said, i like the message -- be good to people.

[magnus]

Jesus, for the Muslims, hold him high, I believe equal to Muhammad, or around Moses for those of you who are ignorant of Muhammad. So they put him higher than the Jews, I guess.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by hasbeens99


Okay. Is that a common theme throughout Hinduism, or am I mistaken?

at the heart of hinduism it is- but hinduism is very open, so there you have the deities, the idol worshipping, and what not.

[SilverSurfer]

Originally posted by LarryD



like i said, i like the message -- be good to people.

Exactly. This I try to do. If I don't have something nice to say about somebody, even if I'm pissed off, I usually bite my tongue. I try to help people out, if I can. I believe in the golden rule, religion or not.

[Fred]

Originally posted by LarryD

-- i mean, do you really think that some woman got pregnant from a god? yeah, i do. with all my heart. and not "a" god- THE God.

[Sally]

I remember (from my childhood days) hearing; "Faith begins where logic ends."

That simple sentence sustains me to this day. I have no delusion that I am of such superior intelligence that I can logically explain what simply requires faith. My part in the whole thing is the willingness to have faith ~ blind faith. The willingness was the tough part. If I even acknowledged an existence far greater than anything I could ever comprehend, my vanity came into play. See, it was impossible for me to explain what I felt without a reasonable assumption of a starting point.

I do not feel as though I have to have my spirituality validated by being involved in a particular religion. Religions are flawed as are most things in life. When I read my Bible, I read it for the message of serving and loving others rather than any historical perspective. I believe in a power greater than myself which I choose to call God.

I think a defining moment for me came in 1990. I was living in Morganton and working in Valdese. On my way home one afternoon I passed a church with a sign proclaiming, “AIDS…the homosexuals death sentence!”. Since that day, I have attended church only when required by weddings, funerals, etc.

The ironic aspect for me is how religions supposedly encourage fellowship, service and unconditional love while practicing the vilest forms of intolerance.

[Sally]

My sermon is over. You may now pass the offering plate.:D

[Fred]

Originally posted by Sally

I think a defining moment for me came in 1990. I was living in Morganton and working in Valdese. On my way home one afternoon I passed a church with a sign proclaiming, “AIDS…the homosexuals death sentence!”. Since that day, I have attended church only when required by weddings, funerals, etc.

That mind-set is what keeps most gay men and women away from church. After you have seen it on several dozen signs and heard it from several dozen ministers, it doesn't hurt as bad. I just keep telling myself that what 'the church' thinks or says does not necessarly equal what God thinks or feels. But again, consider the fact you saw it in Bloody Burke.

[Chip]

Chip, if you place your faith in human will, logic, and positivism, I don't think Sir Bertrand Russell's writings are truly indicative of your beliefs, based on what you posted. You're much more open-minded than that.
You're missing the point. I don't "place my faith" in anything. I believe (that's a belief, not faith) that all people have potential. There's good potential and bad potential. As humans, and in lower animals, we subconsciously feel the need to propagate our species. This would mean that in order to do so, we would need good potential to that end. Also, "logical" positivism means that I believe that all things can be proven through science, if not now, we will in the future.
As for Bertrand Russell, man I just love his quotes! He was enlightening the world with his beliefs for 50 years, 50 years ago. That was one cool cat.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson
Jesus, for the Muslims, hold him high, I believe equal to Muhammad, or around Moses for those of you who are ignorant of Muhammad. So they put him higher than the Jews, I guess.

That would coincide what I heard from an Islamic cleric last year. The Muslims consider Jesus to be a Messiah--one of many, although I don't think their definition of the Hebrew word is quite the same as the Jewish application ("Savior"). I believe the Islamic definition of Messiah would be closer to the Jewish definition of 'prophet', but I could be mistaken. Jesus is considered an equal to Mohammed, who 600 years after Jesus was crucified wrote the Qur'an by divine revelation.

The Jews considered Jesus to be a Rabbi (teacher), and not much more, although a respected one. There was always the mystery of where he received His wisdom, as they have no record of Him ever receiving any formal education, other than attending the temple in Jerusalem with Joseph and Mary. The Jews turned on Jesus when He began preaching against the religious rulers of the day, and proclaiming He was not only the Son of God, but equal to God.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Chip
Also, "logical" positivism means that I believe that all things can be proven through science, if not now, we will in the future.


Maybe we have differing definitions of the word 'faith'. With the above statement, you're saying that you believe/trust that science will eventually explain every aspect of life, given enough time, is that correct? You are basing your belief of the potential and future of scientific discovery on the evidence of what science has accomplished to date. To me, that is faith.

Faith does not have to be blind, illogical, or void of common sense. It can be based on strong and abundant evidence.

But either way, I understand your point. Thanks!

[Inamorata]

First let me say that I scanned thru most of this thread. Hard to read all post here at work. So if I say something that has been covered, ops, sorry.


I believe in God.

I have an open mind to leave room for the possiblity that we just happened. That for some reason in the whole universe everything needed to create life just happened to come together here on this one planet. And this one planet was lucky enough to cool down and get in an orbit around a sun at the right distance to maintain life. That this planet has a moon to help block it from comets. Also has Jupiter and other large planets to draw comets in and away from it.

If you stop and really think about it. They both (God or just happened) seem far fetched.

To me - just happened sounds more unlikely. And science is figuring out how God made everything.

[Inamorata]

Science believes in the expantion of the universe, black matter, black holes, and so on. None have been seen or proven. Faith.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by LarryD
i think that there may have been a guy named jesus who did good, but his legend grew larger than his actions.

That's a tough call, isn't it? I mean, let's face it--His recorded miracles of the Bible are over 1,900 years old. Everyone He ever healed is long since dead, so it's a little hard to verify. Really, the strongest evidence we have is the four gospels of the New Testament, only two of which were handwritten by eyewitnesses. Luke and Mark were not apostles, but companions of apostles. The thing is, though, they all say pretty much the same thing about the same events even though they were written by different people at different times. In fact, the entire New Testament was written by either apostles or disciples of Jesus. There are other accounts and stories of Jesus' acts and ministry on earth, but they are not included in the New Testament.

...it's a little weird to believe, really -- i mean, do you really think that some woman got pregnant from a god? that's just like greek, norse or roman mythology. i think this is christian mythology. just stories for kids.

I agree completely that it's strange and unusual. The supernatural, by definition, is unusual. Spiritual entities are not subject to the laws of physics and nature that we, and everything we see are subject to. Thus they do not fit in our normal, everyday perception, so yes, they're difficult at best to accept. At least until you've met one.

like i said, i like the message -- be good to people.

Yes, it's a good message, and probably the reason He's so well respected by so many people of different faiths. Whether or not they will accept Him for who He claimed to be, they at least respect that part of His ministry.

The problem is, "love your neighbor" was only half His message, and it wasn't even the most important half. According to His apostles, His main message was, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind," which was fine and dandy, but as soon as He revealed His identity as God's Son, the Messiah, the standard for accepting Him changed.

You said in an earlier post that if you accept His identity, you have to accept everything about Him--the whole package. You're absolutely correct. Once He revealed Himself as the Son, you had two choices, basically--either worship and follow Him, or reject Him. I believe the choice remains to this day. C.S. Lewis once said, "Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or He was who He said He was."

That's a tough decision to make because it puts us in an uncomfortable position. We don't want to put Him down, but at the same time, if He really was/is who He and others claimed Him to be, it changes everything.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Inamorata
If you stop and really think about it. They both (God or just happened) seem far fetched.

To me - just happened sounds more unlikely. And science is figuring out how God made everything.

I don't know that science is directly explaining how God made everything, but I have read recently that science, based on the laws of probability applied to the innate complexity of most all living creatures, is beginning to support the idea of 'Intelligent Design'.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Inamorata
Science believes in the expantion of the universe, black matter, black holes, and so on. None have been seen or proven. Faith.

Actually, black holes have been seen, or at least the effects of them have. I don't know that I would call the rest faith as much as evidence-based theory.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by hasbeens99
The Jews considered Jesus to be a Rabbi (teacher), and not much more, although a respected one. There was always the mystery of where he received His wisdom, as they have no record of Him ever receiving any formal education, other than attending the temple in Jerusalem with Joseph and Mary. The Jews turned on Jesus when He began preaching against the religious rulers of the day, and proclaiming He was not only the Son of God, but equal to God.
A logical question puts this to rest: Jesus actually claimed to be God. (one with God....and God himself).

Either he was who he claimed to be, or he was the biggest liar in the world. He cannot be anything else.

If he was telling the truth - then he was God. If he was telling a lie - then, obviously, he wasn't a "good man", a "good teacher".

Can't have both.

[Inamorata]

...it's a little weird to believe, really -- i mean, do you really think that some woman got pregnant from a god? that's just like greek, norse or roman mythology. i think this is christian mythology. just stories for kids.

Why not??


We can get a woman pregnant with invetro(sp), heck a women took a friend's husband's sperm and used a turkey baster and got her self pregnant. So if a virgin can get herself pregnant with a simple turkey baster, then God (higher being) being way more advanced than us can get a woman pregnant.


LOL Just have an Angel sneak in with a turkey baster while the woman is sleepy. LOL

[Inamorata]

Originally posted by hasbeens99


Actually, black holes have been seen, or at least the effects of them have. I don't know that I would call the rest faith as much as evidence-based theory.


Ture, I almost didn't include black holes. But then again they themselves have not yet been proven.

True, you can say it's a theory. But then again it is like faith because so many people take it as truth without proof.

[magnus]

Originally posted by hasbeens99


That would coincide what I heard from an Islamic cleric last year. The Muslims consider Jesus to be a Messiah--one of many, although I don't think their definition of the Hebrew word is quite the same as the Jewish application ("Savior"). I believe the Islamic definition of Messiah would be closer to the Jewish definition of 'prophet', but I could be mistaken. Jesus is considered an equal to Mohammed, who 600 years after Jesus was crucified wrote the Qur'an by divine revelation.

Basically.

I'd suggest to anyone with a good open mind about it to seek out an imam, especially a small town Imam, and just talk with him a while. I was associated with local Islamic factions north of here a few times in my early college years, they hired me as part of entertainment. You are usually expected to stay, eat, and listen. I learned a lot from it, a bit more than I figured.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Sally
I remember (from my childhood days) hearing; "Faith begins where logic ends." ...My part in the whole thing is the willingness to have faith ~ blind faith. The willingness was the tough part.

I cannot speak very intelligently about other faiths, but when it comes to Christianity, the faith needed does not have to be blind nor without logic. There is ample evidence of the claims and promises listed in the Bible to research and digest. I agree that the evidence is more difficult to see and understand without the proper perspective, but that does not mean it doesn't exist.

I do not feel as though I have to have my spirituality validated by being involved in a particular religion. Religions are flawed as are most things in life.

I feel the same way. If people are involved in something, it will be flawed.

On my way home one afternoon I passed a church with a sign proclaiming, “AIDS…the homosexuals death sentence!”. Since that day, I have attended church only when required by weddings, funerals, etc.

The ironic aspect for me is how religions supposedly encourage fellowship, service and unconditional love while practicing the vilest forms of intolerance.

Case in point: that is the kind of sickening result you often see when people use religion to promote their own agenda. When people take God's word out of context and twist it to fit their own beliefs, only evil will result. This kind of misrepresentation has done more to soil God's reputation than anything else in history. I'm truly sorry you were a witness to it.

But Sally, please do not let the lies of one church or denomination destroy any hope in finding a good church. My wife once said, "It's easier to nail Jello to a tree than to find a good man." I'm beginning to believe the same principle is true for finding a good church. But please don't give up completely. There are good ones out there.

[Fred]

If God could be seen or explained, we wouldn't need faith.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson
Personally, the agnostic part of it does make sense because I don't feel that things are exactly as they are in the bible, nor should some yokel from thousands of years ago trying to inflict moral code into a religious document be able to be right (eating pork, homosexuality, etc) on all things. There are a lot of contradictory things in there, and some feel that science contradicts as well.

But that's nature. And whether you believe a story that God just did it like it wasn't a thing, or if it was done as the scientists say, does that keep God from doing as such?

I don't pretend to understand God and attempt to be arrogant enough to think I or we were made in His image. I don't really even think I'm able to put together an opinion yet on where Christ, Muhammad, and others fit into this. And I don't rely on religion to "scare" or guilt me into doing the right thing.

As I understand your first paragraph, Magnus, you're referring to Moses and the ten commandments. He was the actual author of "the law", as it is referred to throughout the Bible. And as he was the only one who spoke with God directly about the law, I can definitely see how his credibility could be considered suspect...especially considering he wrote the entire account, along with the first 5 books of the Bible himself. The only way I personally justify Moses' authority is by Jesus' references to him and the law in the New Testament.

Regarding contradictions, most of the ones I've found I've been able to reconcile through a process of in-depth study and changing perspectives. Several of the laws and ideals that Moses subjected Israel to were cultural, and only applicable to that group of people, in that set of circumstances, for that given time in history. Even some of Paul's assertions and instruction in his letters to the various churches contain culture-specific applications, which do not seem to fit the 'big picture', or the collection of universal truths and ideals the Bible is mainly known for. That does not necessarily mean they are contradictory, it simply means they had a specific window of effectiveness. When the circumstances changed, the window closed.

That is not to say I believe the Bible, as it is read today, is perfect. It has been translated numerous times, and while I have never learned or translated Hebrew or Greek, I do believe that any time a language is translated, there are subtleties and nuances of language and grammar that are lost. That is why I believe knowing the 'big picture' of the Bible is so important to understanding it's text. Everything I read in and referring to the Bible, I compare to the main themes found in the Bible. If it fits, I'll generally accept it. If it doesn't, I generally won't.

[lex]

Originally posted by LarryD


well, let me try to clarify it...

i think that there may have been a guy named jesus who did good, but his legend grew larger than his actions. doesn't islam believe that jesus was a great guy, but not the son of god? it's a little weird to believe, really -- i mean, do you really think that some woman got pregnant from a god? that's just like greek, norse or roman mythology. i think this is christian mythology. just stories for kids.

like i said, i like the message -- be good to people.

i was really bad at religion (cathechism) when i was in school. i skipped a lot cuz i got bored quick. however, the little that i learned is this. k, remember i am roman catholic.

the virgin mary got pregnant, yes, but by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. i believe in the Holy Trinity. three persons in one God. the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. sorry this is boring. i will probably go to hell i didnt capitalize that. so i did. (being facetious, but i dont want to take a chance. i have enough venial sins, i dont want to rack up too much. just the cussing on this board alone is killing me!)

vor: i agree. we rock. i dont mind so much that i was brought up catholic. i just wish we didnt have to remember so much. i doubt if there is such a thing as a "good catholic". how can anyone be? it's impossible! the commandments are just too damn much and too complicated! that is not just 10! the way i learned it that 10 is shredded out! ugh! see, i am sinning even as i type. i better quit. :p

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Fred
If God could be seen or explained, we wouldn't need faith.

If we were capable of seeing God in all His power and glory, I agree--it wouldn't take much faith to believe in Him. But in a limited way, He has been seen in the person of Jesus, and the apostles (who lived with him for three years) still needed faith to accept Him for who He was. And not even all of them had faith.

[Inamorata]

What is not just 10?

How many?

What are they?

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Inamorata
What is not just 10?

How many?

What are they?

Nearly the entire book of Deuteronomy in the Old Testament is comprised of 'the law' as it was given to Moses. There are rules and regulations for practically every aspect of the lives of the tribes of Israel. That's just what I know as a Protestant. The Catholics may have even more with some of their supplemental texts.

[Inamorata]

know how I was speaking (okay typing) about wanting to learn the bible and grow closer to God in an open minded enviroment?

Maybe we should have a thread about just that. Everyone can add thier own knowledge and thoughts.

Start at the beginning and go from there.

[LarryD]

Originally posted by hasbeens99
But Sally, please do not let the lies of one church or denomination destroy any hope in finding a good church. My wife once said, "It's easier to nail Jello to a tree than to find a good man." I'm beginning to believe the same principle is true for finding a good church. But please don't give up completely. There are good ones out there.

but sally already said, "I do not feel as though I have to have my spirituality validated by being involved in a particular religion."

just wondering, why is finding a good church important?

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by LarryD
but sally already said, "I do not feel as though I have to have my spirituality validated by being involved in a particular religion."

just wondering, why is finding a good church important?

Well, now that I think about it, if you have your own custom-tailored set of beliefs, I guess finding a good church wouldn't be as important. But beliefs and faith are only half the reason church is good.

The thing I appreciate most about mine is being with a lot of people who love and support me unconditionally. I've found that my life is much easier to get through with that support system in tact. Of course, if someone already had a network of close friends built up, that need wouldn't be as great. And if you didn't share the same basic faith with anyone else, there would be no way to really build each other up in that regard.

My only purpose in responding to Sally was to assure her that the hatemonger sign she saw was not representative of a true Christian church. I just wanted to eliminate that as a reason for her to avoid trying a church, if that makes any sense.

To be honest, I've never really had my own unique set of beliefs, so I'm pretty clueless about how that works. That's why I'm asking so many questions, I guess. I mean, how do you grow? Do you kind of add things along the way? Do your beliefs change with different life circumstances, or do they remain the same? If you believe in a divine entity, do you relate to him? If so, how? Like I said earlier, this kind of stuff fascinates me. I just want to learn more about how other people think and believe.

[lex]

there are only 10. however, the way i learned it, that 10 is shreded out. there are explanations on each commandment and the shreds tell me how or when i have violated it. so basically, there is 10 but the sins you can commit/derive from each is numerous. technically, that is.

for example: 1. love God above all. i have violated that all kinds of ways. i mean, not on purpose, but i have. that is what i meant of too much. there is a lot. to remember. when i go to confessions, i am there all day (exaggerating here! lol) because i want to be thorough sometimes. :( here it is:

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

CHAPTER ONE

YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND
ARTICLE 1 - THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I. "YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"

II. "HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"

III. "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME"

IV. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . ."

ARTICLE 2 - THE SECOND COMMANDMENT

I. THE NAME OF THE LORD IS HOLY

II. TAKING THE NAME OF THE LORD IN VAIN

III. THE CHRISTIAN NAME

ARTICLE 3 - THE THIRD COMMANDMENT

I. THE SABBATH DAY

II. THE LORD'S DAY

CHAPTER TWO
YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF
ARTICLE 4 - THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT

I. THE FAMILY IN GOD'S PLAN

II. THE FAMILY AND SOCIETY

III. THE DUTIES OF FAMILY MEMBERS

IV. THE FAMILY AND THE KINGDOM

V. THE AUTHORITIES IN CIVIL SOCIETY

ARTICLE 5 - THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

I. RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE

II. RESPECT FOR THE DIGNITY OF PERSONS

III. SAFEGUARDING PEACE

ARTICLE 6 - THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT

I. "MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM"

II. THE VOCATION TO CHASTITY

III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE

IV. OFFENSES AGAINST THE DIGNITY OF MARRIAGE

ARTICLE 7 - THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT

I. THE UNIVERSAL DESTINATION AND THE PRIVATE OWNERSHIP OF GOODS

II. RESPECT FOR PERSONS AND THEIR GOODS

III. THE SOCIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH

IV. ECONOMIC ACTIVITY AND SOCIAL JUSTICE

V. JUSTICE AND SOLIDARITY AMONG NATIONS

VI. LOVE FOR THE POOR

ARTICLE 8 - THE EIGHTH COMMANDMENT

I. LIVING IN THE TRUTH

II. TO BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH

III. OFFENSES AGAINST TRUTH

IV. RESPECT FOR TRUTH

V. THE USE OF THE SOCIAL COMMUNICATIONS MEDIA

VI. TRUTH, BEAUTY, AND SACRED ART

ARTICLE 9 - THE NINTH COMMANDMENT

I. PURIFICATION OF THE HEART

II. THE BATTLE FOR PURITY

ARTICLE 10 - THE TENTH COMMANDMENT

I. THE DISORDER OF COVETOUS DESIRES

II. THE DESIRES OF THE SPIRIT

III. POVERTY OF HEART

IV. "I WANT TO SEE GOD"


how these are worded is way different from the ten i learned. i cant find the traditional one. but this is pretty close.

[LarryD]

Originally posted by hasbeens99
To be honest, I've never really had my own unique set of beliefs, so I'm pretty clueless about how that works. That's why I'm asking so many questions, I guess. I mean, how do you grow? Do you kind of add things along the way? Do your beliefs change with different life circumstances, or do they remain the same? If you believe in a divine entity, do you relate to him? If so, how? Like I said earlier, this kind of stuff fascinates me. I just want to learn more about how other people think and believe.

i'm sure i'll become more learned about other religions, but i dont feel the need to right now. i believe that god is in all things. if i can, i don't kill bugs -- i put them outside. i don't like pulling leaves off of trees. i don't like bending the grass when i sit on the yard. i enjoy how rain feeds nature. i don't like to have fun at other people's expense. god is everywhere and in everything. i feel very connected to the world.

you just do what feels right. i've never liked authority and would make an awful military person because i don't like being told what to do. religion is a choice and nobody's is any more right than you just making up a bunch of stuff -- it's just been around longer and folks think it's fact.

i believe that there's a heaven of some sort, but no hell. i kind of believe in what albert brooks experienced in that movie "defending your life". that's a neat way to think about it.

[Chip]

FNORD!

Hail Eris!!!:D

[Inamorata]

Thanks Lex.:)

I think that's something to read more than once.

[Sally]

Originally posted by hasbeens99
My only purpose in responding to Sally was to assure her that the hatemonger sign she saw was not representative of a true Christian church. I just wanted to eliminate that as a reason for her to avoid trying a church, if that makes any sense.

To be honest, I've never really had my own unique set of beliefs, so I'm pretty clueless about how that works. That's why I'm asking so many questions, I guess. I mean, how do you grow? Do you kind of add things along the way? Do your beliefs change with different life circumstances, or do they remain the same? If you believe in a divine entity, do you relate to him? If so, how? Like I said earlier, this kind of stuff fascinates me. I just want to learn more about how other people think and believe.

Thanks for your assurances on churches. I respect your opinions and beliefs. I am no stranger to church. Our family was very devoted to our Baptist church. My mother was the pianist and my Grandfather was pastor. To this day, I feel that my Grandfather was one of the greatest men who ever lived. I also think that he would support me in what I have said about my beliefs. I was a soloist for several years.

Having your own set of unique beliefs sounds funny to me. My beliefs are not really that different from what I learned as a child. The main difference today is that I learn on my own. And yes, growth is a vital part of my spirituality. I don’t feel that I need someone to preach to me based on the doctrine of a particular religion. I am an avid reader. Emmet Fox’s “Sermon on the Mount” is one of my favorites. I also have daily readings based on verses from the Bible. Plus, I read my Bible. I also believe in the power of service to your fellow man. I am quite involved in service work around here. DH and I are very devoted to helping others.

Adding things along the way? Uh, no. I’ll see if I can explain this to you as best I can. I believe in God. I believe that God created this earth and the heavens. I believe in right and wrong. I believe that God is loving and in my case, he has a sense of humor…he loves ME doesn’t he?! :) I don’t sit and worry about going to heaven or hell. I try to live each day as it comes. If given the chance, I share my feelings with others but trying to explain your spiritual life is trying to explain why you like certain colors or certain books. The feelings are yours and translating feelings to words when there are no words to suffice is quite difficult.

I agree with Larry. I see God all around me. In the trees and the sky. I feel Him when the wind blows. And I know that there is a wholeness about me that wasn’t there when I drifted away from Him. I’m sitting here smiling as I type this. I feel as though I’m trying to explain something that need not be explained. But, I understand that we all have questions about thought processes that are different from our own (as far as attending church is concerned.). I hope this has answered your questions in at least in some small way.

[Sally]

Originally posted by Sally
I have no delusion that I am of such superior intelligence that I can logically explain what simply requires faith.

[Superfluous_Nut]

For my money, Jesus = Martin Luther. I think of Christianity as being the "Jewish Reformation". The way you got your word out in the first century in the middle east was by employing mythology. In 16th century Germany, you used the printing press.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Sally
Having your own set of unique beliefs sounds funny to me. ...I feel as though I’m trying to explain something that need not be explained. But, I understand that we all have questions about thought processes that are different from our own. I hope this has answered your questions in at least in some small way.

Thanks for that, Sally. In reading and participating on this thread, I've seen several different interpretations of who God is, and how He relates (or doesn't) to many people at TBR. Few people have adopted what I would call a 'traditional' doctrine, rather preferring to experience God in their own way. In fact, the only constant I can see through all seven pages (so far) is that nearly all of us agree that organized religion as a whole is not the best of things.

I understand that explaining your experiences and feelings regarding God seems nearly impossible to someone who cannot relate. I feel the same way at times. And I've found that even if you are able to articulate it, many people are so skeptical they won't believe you. It can be frustrating, to say the least.

Thanks again for sharing that with me. :D

[kshead]

Y'know, I do not have the time to participate at the moment, but I would like to after my work is done this weekend and I have the time.

Right now I just wanted to stick a nose in here and say how amazed I am that a religion thread has gone on this long without it heading down the crapper like they tend to usually do around here.


:D

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut
For my money, Jesus = Martin Luther. I think of Christianity as being the "Jewish Reformation". The way you got your word out in the first century in the middle east was by employing mythology. In 16th century Germany, you used the printing press.

I would agree with you, Nut, that like Martin Luther (and others) teaching was part of His purpose here on earth. What do you think about the redemptive part of Jesus accomplishments, particularly His crucifixion and resurrection?

[Turbo]

Originally posted by lex
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

CHAPTER ONE

YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND
ARTICLE 1 - THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I. "YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"

II. "HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"

III. "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME"

IV. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . ."

ARTICLE 2 - THE SECOND COMMANDMENT

I. THE NAME OF THE LORD IS HOLY

II. TAKING THE NAME OF THE LORD IN VAIN

III. THE CHRISTIAN NAME

ARTICLE 3 - THE THIRD COMMANDMENT

I. THE SABBATH DAY

II. THE LORD'S DAY

CHAPTER TWO
YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF
ARTICLE 4 - THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT

I. THE FAMILY IN GOD'S PLAN

II. THE FAMILY AND SOCIETY

III. THE DUTIES OF FAMILY MEMBERS

IV. THE FAMILY AND THE KINGDOM

V. THE AUTHORITIES IN CIVIL SOCIETY

ARTICLE 5 - THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

I. RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE

II. RESPECT FOR THE DIGNITY OF PERSONS

III. SAFEGUARDING PEACE

ARTICLE 6 - THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT

I. "MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM"

II. THE VOCATION TO CHASTITY

III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE

IV. OFFENSES AGAINST THE DIGNITY OF MARRIAGE

ARTICLE 7 - THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT

I. THE UNIVERSAL DESTINATION AND THE PRIVATE OWNERSHIP OF GOODS

II. RESPECT FOR PERSONS AND THEIR GOODS

III. THE SOCIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH

IV. ECONOMIC ACTIVITY AND SOCIAL JUSTICE

V. JUSTICE AND SOLIDARITY AMONG NATIONS

VI. LOVE FOR THE POOR

ARTICLE 8 - THE EIGHTH COMMANDMENT

I. LIVING IN THE TRUTH

II. TO BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH

III. OFFENSES AGAINST TRUTH

IV. RESPECT FOR TRUTH

V. THE USE OF THE SOCIAL COMMUNICATIONS MEDIA

VI. TRUTH, BEAUTY, AND SACRED ART

ARTICLE 9 - THE NINTH COMMANDMENT

I. PURIFICATION OF THE HEART

II. THE BATTLE FOR PURITY

ARTICLE 10 - THE TENTH COMMANDMENT

I. THE DISORDER OF COVETOUS DESIRES

II. THE DESIRES OF THE SPIRIT

III. POVERTY OF HEART

IV. "I WANT TO SEE GOD" [/COLOR]


how these are worded is way different from the ten i learned. i cant find the traditional one. but this is pretty close.

Lex - the following comments do not reflect anything towards you or the millions of good Catholics who serve God with all their hearts.

I find it amazing that no one has noticed the change in the law as presented by the Roman Catholic faith. Go to any Bible (not of Roman Catholic origin) and look up the text of the Ten Commandments and you will find an amazing difference.

Both Exodus 20:3-17 and Deuteronomy 5:7-21 give the text of the Ten Commandments. This is how it is written:

1. You shall have no other Gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any image (Catholics took this out in order to allow worship and homage to images, i.e. of Mary and saints.)
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy (it tells which day it is - "the seventh day" - again, Catholics changed it to reflect their instruction that the First Day be kept).
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not commit murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house, nor wife, nor servants (male/female) nor any of his possessions (again, divided into 2 commandments to reflect the deletion of the 3rd commandment and result in 10).

I only bring this up because of the lex's post regarding what the 10 Commandments are.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by hasbeens99


I would agree with you, Nut, that like Martin Luther (and others) teaching was part of His purpose here on earth. What do you think about the redemptive part of Jesus accomplishments, particularly His crucifixion and resurrection?


I don't believe he was resurrected. That story predates Jesus and I believe was folded into his mythos as a way to make him equal to the legends people already knew.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Fred
As far as the Bible, it was dictated by God but written by man and has been translated repeatedly over and over by man; therefore fallible.

For me, despite the repeated translations AND human part in the writing, the Bible can be believed in its word.

The first proof is in the prophecies which have been fufilled (have come true). One of the best examples of this is found in the book of Daniel.

In chapter 2, we find a King who has a dream. When the prophet Daniel explains this dream, he says it has to do with 4 political kingdoms/nations that will rule in the future.

A look at secular history has shown that indeed, these 4 political kingdoms/nations ruled - just as prophecied by Danile hundreds of years in advance.

In regards to whether any of the text or teachings have been changed, the Dead Sea Scrolls proved otherwise. After hundreds of years of being hidden in a cave, many scrolls containing large parts of the Old Testament were found in 1947. The Christian community prepared itself for a huge revision of the existing Bible. When the Scrolls were studied and translated, it was found that there were NO major differences between the ancient scrolls and the modern Bible.

The differences that were found were of the simple textual variety - as in conjunctions, etc. However, no major Christian teaching was any different.

For me (not necessarily for anyone else), this proves that the Bible has been kept as it was written and has not gone through any of the proposed changes through their translation.

A good place to read about this is: http://www.lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/

[Braves]

As I get older and gain more experiences, one thing I have noticed about a lot of people. They go through life truly unhappy. Yes, they party and seek fun and believe that will bring the happiness they are seeking. They are always seeking......

And for most of them, they reach the depths of their depression before
they figure out how to make themselves fulfilled. I see it all the time, knowing they will keep bumping their heads until they figure it out. I guess it is a natural order of life. I just hope they don't hurt themselves before then.

[lex]

"1. You shall have no other Gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any image (Catholics took this out in order to allow worship and homage to images, i.e. of Mary and saints.)
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy (it tells which day it is - "the seventh day" - again, Catholics changed it to reflect their instruction that the First Day be kept).
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not commit murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house, nor wife, nor servants (male/female) nor any of his possessions (again, divided into 2 commandments to reflect the deletion of the 3rd commandment and result in 10).

I only bring this up because of the lex's post regarding what the 10 Commandments are. " posted turbo


thanks. this is the traditional one i was looking for last night. should have gone king james version, perhaps? i was googling last night so i dont have to type it. the one i posted was the first one i saw and just went with it.

like i said, i doubt there is such a thing as a good catholic. i still have to meet one who measures up to what He expects.

thank you for posting.
:D

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by Turbo


For me, despite the repeated translations AND human part in the writing, the Bible can be believed in its word.

The first proof is in the prophecies which have been fufilled (have come true). One of the best examples of this is found in the book of Daniel.

In chapter 2, we find a King who has a dream. When the prophet Daniel explains this dream, he says it has to do with 4 political kingdoms/nations that will rule in the future.

A look at secular history has shown that indeed, these 4 political kingdoms/nations ruled - just as prophecied by Danile hundreds of years in advance.

In regards to whether any of the text or teachings have been changed, the Dead Sea Scrolls proved otherwise. After hundreds of years of being hidden in a cave, many scrolls containing large parts of the Old Testament were found in 1947. The Christian community prepared itself for a huge revision of the existing Bible. When the Scrolls were studied and translated, it was found that there were NO major differences between the ancient scrolls and the modern Bible.

The differences that were found were of the simple textual variety - as in conjunctions, etc. However, no major Christian teaching was any different.

For me (not necessarily for anyone else), this proves that the Bible has been kept as it was written and has not gone through any of the proposed changes through their translation.

A good place to read about this is: http://www.lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/


I've heard people use the bible's prophecies as proof of its veracity, but I always end up scratching my head in wonder. Isn't it odd to say "see, in chapter 1 it says XXX will happen. Then in chapter 2 it says it did." Not to say that's what you're exactly saying here... what you don't consider is the possibility of the prophecy being altered after the fact to fit with then known history.

[Miss tery]

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/science.gif

[Fred]

LOL. You go you ole bitch! You're just as much entitled to your opinion as anyone.

[sadic1]

I'm Roman Catholic. I tried almost all religions because I was angry at the apparent hypocracy in the members of the church, but I found that to be the same in every religion. You'll always find the very worst people in churches and politics, because there's power to be had there. Based purely on doctrine and the fact that it's the only religion actually authorized by Jesus via St Peter, it's the only one I can go with. All other religions are just picking and choosing what parts of Catholicism they like and don't like and homegrowing their religions based on that. I find it reassuring that the Catholic church acknowledges certain elements of mysticism as well. I don't worry about what's fact in the Bible. For all I know, it's all fiction that God himself put on paper just to keep us busy.

[VOR]

yeah Sadic talk about all your base are belong to us. Wish they'd've done a better job of screen what fags get to be priests though, this is turning into a sticky wickett, and causing a lot of havoc.

[sadic1]

It's a sad product of the misguided need all religions feel to grow and "conquer". They don't screen too well. You gotta give up all your possessions and the ability to have your own family to be a priest (which I think is necessary; if you're gonna serve God, that should really be all you have on the plate), so recruiting is tough. Any freak who values their perversions more than a paycheck is at the door.

[VOR]

The first requirement for elegibility for the priesthood is that the man not be able to make a good marriage. I see nothing wrong with gays as priests, they should have acknowledged their existance years ago, and simply screened out the bad apples. Covering up homosexuality in general has allowed preditors to cover their tracks. Generally as a bad sterotype, gays would tend to make the best priests. Obviously noone would want a pedophile as a priest though and that behavior should have been actively identified and been routed out of the parish priest biz and maybe channeled to the monasteries if the person deeply sought a religious vocation.

[sadic1]

I agree. Homosexuality has really gotten screwed in the ass by being lumped in with "sexual deviants". Sexual predators are acting out of want for power, not sexual orientation. It's kind of strange. I used to be against divorce (because of how it hurts kids), but now I'm leaning more towards being against marriage for many people. Obviously, everyone does it because they want to be like the neighbors and they perceive having a marriage as another thing to "have". Chances are, a lot of people who end up divorced (especially multiple times), really weren't meant to get married at all to anyone. They may eventually find someone that they can peacefully coexist with, but will never feel compelled to share deeply. Some percentage of these people would probably find true fulfillment of their destiny in service to God if such was a more commonly accepted thought.

[VOR]

Originally posted by sadic1
. You gotta give up all your possessions and the ability to have your own family to be a priest (which I think is necessary; if you're gonna serve God, that should really be all you have on the plate), so recruiting is tough.

You know at one point I didn't really see the need for the vow of poverty and chastity thing, but I live next door to a preacher now, to hear that man bitch whine and moan that the parish isn't paying him enough to maintain the socal stature that he feels he should have gets to be a bit much. I can't see how he can both minister a flock and worry about leaving a sizeable enough legacy to the kids. That's serving 2 masters.

[sadic1]

Originally posted by VOR
That's serving 2 masters.
EXACTLY. That's often a major life issue for everyone (whether they realize it or not), and critical to clergy in particular.

[Miss tery]

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Procreate.gif

[VOR]

Ok anytime you wanna come by you can be on top

[sadic1]

I'd prefer one where the two were facing each other kissing.

[VOR]

but that one is not inflamatory enough. There should be one where the jesus fish holds a magic wand and creates the darwin fish.

[Inamorata]

sadic may I quote you???


"The Bible...[is] all fiction that God himself put on paper just to keep us busy."

[Miss tery]

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-YYang.gif

[VOR]

you got it teri

[sadic1]

Agreed. Science and religion, ebony and ivory, corn flakes and milk, Ted Kennedy and whiskey...

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut
I've heard people use the bible's prophecies as proof of its veracity, but I always end up scratching my head in wonder. Isn't it odd to say "see, in chapter 1 it says XXX will happen. Then in chapter 2 it says it did." Not to say that's what you're exactly saying here... what you don't consider is the possibility of the prophecy being altered after the fact to fit with then known history.

That may be true in some prophecies (although there is no proof of that), Nut, but in this case, regarding the prophecies of Daniel chapter 2, there is ample proof as to when they were written (secular proof) and proof of when they were fulfilled (secular unbiased proof).

[babydollnpink]

Originally posted by LarryD
i was baptized methodist and went to a methodist church for my early years. middle school and on, i went to an episcopal church. i was married in an episcopal church.

i haven't been to a regular sunday church service in years. we tried up in charlotte, but the closest ones were all baptist. and we're not baptist.

i'm not big on organized religions, i'm finding. i'm deeply spiritual, but not very religious. that make sense?

Makes perfect sense. I don't believe in religion. We don't need a "middle man" to talk to God for us. All we really need to do is believe in God/Jesus, ask for forgiveness, know right from wrong, know when we need to ask for forgiveness...then ask.... religion is highly overrated.

[sadic1]

Originally posted by babydollnpink


Makes perfect sense. I don't believe in religion. We don't need a "middle man" to talk to God for us. All we really need to do is believe in God/Jesus, ask for forgiveness, know right from wrong, know when we need to ask for forgiveness...then ask.... religion is highly overrated.
I've felt that way in the past, and maybe it's a normal developmental stage for people who are really in constant search of God, but at this stage I believe that this mode of thinking overlooks the possibility that religious traditions and rituals originally developed as tools to access God and broad truths necessary to reach the "next plateau" of understanding Him, and are still useful to that end, not to mention inherently beautiful.

[babydollnpink]

To each his own.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by Turbo


That may be true in some prophecies (although there is no proof of that), Nut, but in this case, regarding the prophecies of Daniel chapter 2, there is ample proof as to when they were written (secular proof) and proof of when they were fulfilled (secular unbiased proof).

Daniel chapter 2, eh? I'll have to have a peek...

[Turbo]

Originally posted by babydollnpink
Makes perfect sense. I don't believe in religion. We don't need a "middle man" to talk to God for us. All we really need to do is believe in God/Jesus, ask for forgiveness, know right from wrong, know when we need to ask for forgiveness...then ask.... religion is highly overrated.
On the one hand, I agree. We certainly don't need priests, pastors or anyone else to tell us how to live our Christian lives.

On the other hand, what is religion but an explanation of supernatural things and a way to achieve the things you mentioned?

Religion is what attempts to teach us about God/Jesus, why we need forgiveness, teaching us the difference between right and wrong.

The silly rituals and ceremonies of a religion might be over rated, but the questions that religion seeks to answer aren't.

[Miss tery]

There are no "supernatural" things. Only things science has yet to figure out.

One has only to look at history to see the truth of this.

[Sally]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
There are no "supernatural" things. Only things science has yet to figure out.

One has only to look at history to see the truth of this.

That's what makes this world wonderful. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

[Inamorata]

Originally posted by Turbo

On the one hand, I agree. We certainly don't need priests, pastors or anyone else to tell us how to live our Christian lives.




I believe they should be educated and learned.

Then be our teachers, help guide us. Not our judges or punishers.

The problem seems to be the human ego and the need for power.

[Miss tery]

In an another thousand years...if we do not self-destruct... we will have the ability to create stars and planets and critters just like us.

Not science fiction, just look at where our species was in 1002.

[Inamorata]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
In an another thousand years...if we do not self-destruct... we will have the ability to create stars and planets and critters just like us.

Not science fiction, just look at where our species was in 1002.


Maybe that's who God is .... ya know our creator.

Higher Power = more advanced

I believe God is all powerfull, I just don't know how God became all powerful.

[Miss tery]

Originally posted by Inamorata




I believe God is all powerfull, I just don't know how God became all powerful.


I think the next iteration will be silicon, not carbon based.

[Inamorata]

There is this show on Discovery Science channel that discusses that. It's cool with all the idea's they come up with. Granted they are speaking of how life may evolve on another planet because of the different elements.

[sadic1]

Originally posted by Turbo
The silly rituals and ceremonies of a religion might be over rated, but the questions that religion seeks to answer aren't.

I actually think they're a little underrated, though not essential. As an example, let's take the Catholic ritual of confession, which I used to think was ridiculous.

Most Christians agree that it's important to acknowledge and repent for our sins. Catholics put a structure around it that seems sort of arbitrary and silly, but I'd argue that it's not that way at all. If you don't have a structured confession ritual, I would assume that Protestants are expected to think about and repent for their sins at their own convenience. That's all well and good, but kind of nebulous. Each part of Catholic confession improves the efficiency and affect of the process.

1. You know you have to go and tell a priest your sins, which means you have to sit down beforehand and literally account for what you've done that goes against God. The act of thinking about your life in a structured way is valuable in that it helps you mark milestones in your spiritual development.

2. You have to go tell another human being what you've done. Verbalizing your weaknesses has MUCH more serious implications than just thinking about them. It represents a totally different level of accountability when say things out loud. They SOUND as ugly as they really are.

3. You're instructed to pray about your sins. Many people look at this as a punishment and believe that saying a particular number of prayers is silly. In reality, it's not about punishment. You're supposed to pray to God while you're in a state of humbleness and awareness of your sins, so that you may receive some degree of revelation as to what led you to them and how to correct it. I believe the ritualistic style of repetetive prayers (like Our Father's and Hail Mary's) is really designed to lull your conscious mind to sleep so that you're more prepared to receive God on a spiritual level, like any form of meditation does.

So, I think these types of rituals often have a solid basis in psychology that makes them more valuable than they initially appear.

[Inamorata]

"how do you know if the bible is true" article


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29091

[WilliamJ]

Excellent article....Back in '91 I met an arciologist, his name is Richard Reeves, he wanted to prove for certain the if the Bible was true or not. Subsequently he discovered every major happening in the Bible. He found Sodom and Gamorah, He discovered Egyptian battle armor and charriot remain at the bottom of the Red Sea, He stood atop Mt. Sinia (the Saudis know this is where God handed Moses the 10 commandments) He Went into Turkey and the Turks arrested him then Led him to the remains of the Ark (Noah's)

So all the Nay-sayers wear it out because I have seen with my own eyes what this man found and I don't think him a con. In fact he was the most humble man I have ever met and he was surprised at what he disovered oh and to my knowledge he became a Christian after these discoveries.

You best turn so you don't burn. :D

[mathmajors]

Moderate Baptist.

[Miss tery]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
Excellent article....Back in '91 I met an arciologist, his name is Richard Reeves, he wanted to prove for certain the if the Bible was true or not. Subsequently he discovered every major happening in the Bible. He found Sodom and Gamorah, He discovered Egyptian battle armor and charriot remain at the bottom of the Red Sea, He stood atop Mt. Sinia (the Saudis know this is where God handed Moses the 10 commandments) He Went into Turkey and the Turks arrested him then Led him to the remains of the Ark (Noah's)

So all the Nay-sayers wear it out because I have seen with my own eyes what this man found and I don't think him a con. In fact he was the most humble man I have ever met and he was surprised at what he disovered oh and to my knowledge he became a Christian after these discoveries.

You best turn so you don't burn. :D

"giggle"

[builder]

William,

It may well be true that the bible is a historical (although somewhat sensationalised ) document. However, I'll take my chance with the believes I have because of the things I have seen in my own mind. And if I burn in hell, hopefully Saddam will be done with Satan and I can be his bitch.

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by Miss_tery


"giggle"

Fuck you Miss_Terry....Yeah I know how "christian" of me to say that....Well like I said ealier, I have backslidden and been known to lose my religion from time to time. So Fuck You. At least builder had the balls to openly admit his thoughts and not ridicule me for mine. And in case you don't understand sarcasm...the turn so you don't burn, was sarcasm....God still loves you even though I probaby don't right this minute :)

[Superfluous_Nut]

Actually, I thought that article was a little bogus. "The bible is accurate because you know it's true." Huh?

The foundation the author lays is good, but then he fails to draw any conclusion from it. He just says "it's true because you know it". What if I don't? Oh that's right -- I'm delusional. Not a very well crafted argument, if you ask me.

He cites the Golden Rule, Murder, and Theft as being inherently understood by humans, which of course means the Bible must be accurate. Of course, pretty much EVERY religion says the same thing about Murder, Theft and how to treat others. Are they equally true?

[slydevl]

Greek Paradox

[Ice Man]

Jumping on late here but I'm Methodist soon to be Baptist!!

[Miss tery]

Originally posted by WilliamJ


Fuck you Miss_Terry....Yeah I know how "christian" of me to say that....Well like I said ealier, I have backslidden and been known to lose my religion from time to time. So Fuck You. At least builder had the balls to openly admit his thoughts and not ridicule me for mine. And in case you don't understand sarcasm...the turn so you don't burn, was sarcasm....God still loves you even though I probaby don't right this minute :)

The "spell check fairy" strikes again. It is extremely difficult to take anyone seriously who mangles the English language as much as you.

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
The "spell check fairy" strikes again. It is extremely difficult to take anyone seriously who mangles the English language as much as you.

C'mon MT...You have had over 24hrs to reply to this and this is the best you got....Oh I know you read my reply last night. You are the freakin joke. And I butcher my english on purpose :bird1:

[Sally]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
And I butcher my english on purpose :bird1:

Billy! You defiant little bastard.:D

[voyergirl]

wow excitement in the bible thread surprise surprise


i am quite late to jump in here, but why the hey i made it

Baptist here...............as for the Bible it may not be the full truth and may well be sensationalized BUT if it bring goodness and peace through the beliefs it teaches then what is the harm. even as a learning tool it has great possibilities to open hearts, minds, and souls to an inner peace that many non-believers or lost souls seek in their lives. no matter who you are or what you believe we all sense a feeling of there being a bigger picture than any of us fully understand. i personally can look into the sky no matter what the weather or time of day and have that moment of knowing He will always be there for me. it may not be what everyone feels, but it is MY personal security. the smell of a flower also tells my that Someone bigger than any of us had a hand in making a flower so beautiful. there are so many things i love in this life, just feeling rain against my skin and roll off makes me feel alive and thankful for that:D

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Ice Man
Jumping on late here but I'm Methodist soon to be Baptist!!

I'm curious, Ice Man, why the change?

[Ice Man]

Originally posted by hasbeens99


I'm curious, Ice Man, why the change?

I grew up Methodist and it seems like my church is dying a slow death so to speak. There are no people there my age and I wasn't growing spiritually. So I decided to start checking out other churches. The one that I found turned out to be great and it's a Baptist church. I've been attending that church for about 1 1/2 years and I've finally decided to join. So that's why I'm switching. I feel like God has guided me to the right church!!!

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Ice Man


I grew up Methodist and it seems like my church is dying a slow death so to speak. There are no people there my age and I wasn't growing spiritually. So I decided to start checking out other churches. The one that I found turned out to be great and it's a Baptist church. I've been attending that church for about 1 1/2 years and I've finally decided to join. So that's why I'm switching. I feel like God has guided me to the right church!!!

I know exactly how you feel! Glad you found a good one...

[Chip]

I like to see which Christians lurk around in the cafe. It's almost like a sport. Ahhh...the life of a Christian hypocrite!

[magnus]

I've never really bought into that. I'm Christian and I'm a very admitted follower of the flesh as well. It's really not that morally perfect but all the same, I'm doing what I feel I should within reason.

The only thing I never got of hypocrisy is Christian bigots. Granted, bigots are going to be bigots no matter what skin or hobby or gender they tend to be in, but being that I've been around my share of people who, for instance, wouldn't eat with you if you wouldn't pray with them, and in the same afternoon decide not to eat at a restaraunt because there's "black people going inside", that I don't get. Luckily I only look down on that person, not Christians in general.

[Patti]

I have so much to say about this that I am going to have to think about it and try and put it in cliff note form.

[Ice Man]

Originally posted by Chip
I like to see which Christians lurk around in the cafe. It's almost like a sport. Ahhh...the life of a Christian hypocrite!

We are all humans and we are all sinners. Sometimes we succumb to temptation. I don't think it's a matter of hypocricy (sp). I admit it, I've been in there before and I regret it everytime. I realize what I did was wrong and I do my best to stay out of there. Actually Larry if you happen to read this I would appreciate it if you could remove my access from that forum. This best way to combat evil is to avoid the temptations. Removing my access would be a step in the right direction.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Chip
I like to see which Christians lurk around in the cafe. It's almost like a sport. Ahhh...the life of a Christian hypocrite!

"Everywhere you leak, the world hangs a bucket." --Gallagher

I have no problem with you taking note of professed Christians in the Cafe. If Jesus wants us to be an example to others and out in the open, that's the risk we take.

What's more, if Christians try to put on a facade of being perfect or beyond sinful behavior, they deserve to get shot off the pedestal, IMO. Jesus was far more critical of religious hypocrites than anyone else.

Just because someone has chosen to dedicate the remainder of their lives to follow Jesus does not mean they become 100% 'holy'. Even Paul, arguably one of the greatest apostles who wrote the majority of the New Testament had his struggles and fell from time to time. (Romans 7) So who are the rest of us to imply we never do?

That is not to say we don't, or shouldn't, strive for perfection as defined by biblical standards. Not that we're capable of attaining it, but the closer we get the better our quality of life will be.

BTW, Larry, if it is possible to grant Ice Man's request to be blocked from the Cafe, please do that for me, too. Thanks.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Ice Man
The best way to combat evil is to avoid the temptations. Removing my access would be a step in the right direction.

I agree totally. In fact, I was at a men's retreat last weekend and taught two classes on that very premise.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
There are no "supernatural" things. Only things science has yet to figure out.

One has only to look at history to see the truth of this.

One one hand, I can see your point. Much of what our ancestors once attributed to 'acts of God' were from a standpoint of ignorance.

However...

Am I to understand you are unequivocally ruling out any possibility of the existence of spiritual beings? Or are you asserting that there are spiritual beings, but they are a part of nature somehow? Please clarify your position.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by hasbeens99


One one hand, I can see your point. Much of what our ancestors once attributed to 'acts of God' were from a standpoint of ignorance.

However...

Am I to understand you are unequivocally ruling out any possibility of the existence of spiritual beings? Or are you asserting that there are spiritual beings, but they are a part of nature somehow? Please clarify your position.

now yer askin for it!

[blueblood1]

This has been an interesting thread. I must concede that I am currently trying to figure out my own place in the big scheme of things. I think that's healthy, though. I grew up PENTICOSTAL so I know I'm in the minority here. We weren't the poison drinking, snake handling, run up and down the aisle types, but very spiritual. Well, my family and church brethren were very religious. I never really felt comfortable with "CHURCH." I will say this; my quest to find my place has never ended, and I don't believe OTHER religions hold the key for me. I recently read a book called "The Case for Christ" and I must confess it was very convincing. Jesus Christ fulfilled all of the prophecies from the old testament. Some mathemetician calculated that the odds for one man fulfilling these was like 5billion, billion, billion to 1. Some crazy number. I'd recommend it for anyone interested in such things.

[hasbeens99]

Originally posted by blueblood1
I recently read a book called "The Case for Christ" and I must confess it was very convincing. ...I'd recommend it for anyone interested in such things.

An interesting read, indeed. I got "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Faith" last year, and haven't yet had the opportunity to read either of them entirely. But yes, what I have read is pretty compelling.

[blueblood1]

Hasbeen, I believe "The Case For Christ" would only confirm your beliefs in Christ as the Messiah. It would convince many non-believers, IMO. The dogged scrutiny by which Lee Strobel puts to the biblical scholars, and the responses he gets in return are stunning. If the "JEWISH MESSIAH" ever did come, he came as JESUS the CHRIST. The evidence is overwhelming. I honestly believe that trying to find meaning in GOD's plan for things can be futile. So, he made it simple for us. Yet, we still reject the truths.

[jazzredcat]

I was confirmed an Episcopalian; but attended a Southern Baptist church because it was within walking distance, and my best friends went there.
Now, I'm some sort of spiritualist; don't claim any specific denomination. I do see/have seen where the ideas of Christ, God, Mary, etc. came from(rather than just from Book larnin').

[hasbeens99]

Hey, Jazz, by "spiritualist" do you mean non-denominational Christian, or are you open to anything now?

[flyfisher]

Always attended the Presbyterian Church.
There was a period during my young adult life where I truely question the existance of God or Jesus. I had extensive education in biology and other sciences which had me thinking that the world and life was developed through natural evolution- the Primordial Stew. Single cell development to the complex cell, asexual to cross fertlization. Too me science explained it all as to the existance of man.
Then one day while discussing religion with Nancy, which is an important meaning in her life, I started to think about all these doctors and professors that attend church. A doctor, who saved my teachers life is a weekly attending Catholic and my zoology professor was Methodist. Why do they attend church when they know alot more about life than I do with my education. Why do they believe. I realized that I was ignoring my willingness to believe in divine intervention, hope, power of prayer etc. God is not just an excuss for "the unanswered question".

[jazzredcat]

Hey, Jazz, by "spiritualist" do you mean non-denominational Christian, or are you open to anything now?

hasbeens99,

Although Christ is a big part of my religious equation(symbolizes all that is good in man; albeit unrealistic)I do not dwell on the Christ "part" very much because of my own tendencies toward martydom. Actually, my spiritualism is probably more closely related to Native American spiritualism.
And because of my skepticism toward people's motives in general, I tend to shy away from socialized and/or organized religions. I'm pretty reclusive in the religion and intimate areas.

[Rob]

I am a late blooming Christian.

I grew up in a Christian home in that we went to church every Sunday. My Grandmother was very devout and strong in Her faith. She had about 5 children but only 2 of them lived. My aunt married a Lutheran minister, had 4 sons and 3 of them are now Lutheran ministers. My father took us to church but was always more interested in making money than serving the Lord. He is a very good person and did lots of good things but Christianity was compartmentalized for him and not something that was lived day to day. We went to church said grace at meals and that was about it.

I was Baptized as an infant and At the age of 12 I was confirmed into the Lutheran Church. This amounted to a few months of "confirmation classes"
and then one day we were trotted out in front of the congregation and repeated back to the minister that we believed in Christ. It was basically the Nicene Creed.

We changed churches a couple of years later and I continued to attend up until college. In my later years of High School I began drinking and smoking pot often with members of my church youth group. This was 1974-75 so it wasn't that uncommon.

In college I pretty much stayed away from the church and didn't consider God much at all. I got married and started working. I did a lot of drinking and recreational drugs. I never had any real addictions but tried lots of stuff. In my mid 30s I gave up drugs and pretty much just drank. I didn't pray or go to church for about 20 years.

During this time my wife and I experienced the loss of our first child. I coped by drinking and working. It was the worst season of my life. My daughter would have been 13 this year. Even that did not drive me back to the church.

Then about 3 years ago I started visiting River Oaks Community Church in Lewisville NC. My son was about 5 at the time and I wanted him to be raised in a church to learn Christian values much like I did growing up. He was asking us why we didn't go to church because he liked going with my wife's parents while we were at football games. This church has contemporary praise and worship music in a casual atmosphere where you can wear jeans. The services start at 10:30 so we can beat the church crowd to the reasaurants afterwards. It was the least painful of the churches we visited. I had been bored to tears growing up and this was different. It was an enjoyable experience and the people there were friendly.We started attending this church and went a couple of times a month for about 6 months.

About this time my assistant at work got cancer. She and her husband are two of my closest friends and we have been working together for 18 years. I went to church shortly afterward and actually heard the gospel message. I could feel the spirit in that place.

Our minister always gives people an opportunity to accept Christ at the end of his sermons. It is not an alter call but just an opportunity to pray in your seat. I prayed that prayer and my life has gradually changed from that moment. It wasnt like lightning bolts or anything, but I gradually began moving away from the destructive things in my life. The joy and peace I felt as I turned more and more over to Christ is the greatest thing I have ever experienced. I am still a work in progress and still screw up a lot. Christianity is not about being perfect, just forgiven.

I had learned all the stories and read the bible as a kid but never got it. There was never any submission of the will to Christ. My son tells people He led me and his Mom to Christ and in many respects he is right. I think my heart was just at the right place at the right time.

[Village Idiot]

Originally posted by
WOW. This thread is fascinating to me. I love to hear people talk about their beliefs. I'm really intrigued by it. :)

I was raised as a Methodist in the south, but like a lot of people I quit going as soon as Mom stopped forcing me to go.

I went to my wife's church before we were married, but it seemed like going to a business meeting to me most of the time and I soured on it. We tried a few others, but they were either the quintessential hypocritical socialites or had practices so strange we nearly bolted from the room.

I had pretty much written off church until my wife started going to the one we go to now. She went for about 6 months before I joined her.

Technically, my church is Southern Baptist. But I went there for three years before I even knew that. We are NOT the traditional Southern Baptist church.

Our church believes in open acceptance, and we practice it. They believe in the idea of separating someone's actions from their value, because it's biblical. Our church doctrine is not based on that of the Southern Baptist Convention. It is based on what the staff believes is the bible says. The bible and Jesus are the only two spiritual authorities our church recognizes.

I love my church and my wife and I both serve actively. I'm on the board of trustees and I teach two classes; one on baptism and another on relational evangelism. My wife heads up the offering counters team and leads a women's small group. But we do not put our faith in Clovis Hills Community Church. Our faith is placed in Jesus and our trust in the bible. If we feel like our church begins to deviate from either, we will leave.

The main reason I go to church is the people. I get to experience being surrounded by lots of people who know, love and accept me every week, and I crave that.

I guess my answer to your question, Larry, is that I'm a Christian. I'm not really into denominations. The way I look at it, as long as we agree on the basics, we're all on the same team. Sure we have differences, and we can debate those, but I'm not going to say my church is 'better' or more 'holy' than another because of secondary issues. It's divisive, and the bible speaks against it.

The way I see it, the Christian faith has two phases. Phase one is down here on earth. I believe God has given each of us a purpose--a mission in life, and He's equipped all of us with special gifts to accomplish that mission. The bible also gives us instructions for how to live the best life possible. But like any set of instructions, you can choose to follow them or ignore them. You will experience consequences either way. I also believe that our time here is to be used to get reacquainted with God and develop a growing relationship with Him.

Phase two is the afterlife. At some point, the bible says we'll all be subject to God's judgment. Either you can try to pass His standards on your own, or you can depend on Jesus' sacrifice to get you in. Again, your choice to make, but the choice has to be made on this side of death. If you make it, you get to live with Him forever. If you don't, you get to live without Him forever.

Me too man. I decided to read the bible for myself vs. basing my decisions on what PEOPLE said. It took me four and a half months to read it through. Giving my heart to the Lord is the best decision that I have ever made. I used to make the same stereotypical judgements of religion and churches that I have read on here and some get their reputations deservedly so. Any time you are dealing with large groups of people things are'nt going to be perfect. NOTHING on this earth is. But I serve JESUS and Him alone. Men will fail you, yes churches too. I love my church, but I will answer for MY life in the end. Anyone who has questions about Jesus should read HIS WORD FIRST.

[hasbeen99]

Originally posted by TANK
Giving my heart to the Lord is the best decision that I have ever made. I used to make the same stereotypical judgements of religion and churches that I have read on here and some get their reputations deservedly so. Any time you are dealing with large groups of people things aren't going to be perfect. NOTHING on this earth is. But I serve JESUS and Him alone. Men will fail you, yes churches too. I love my church, but I will answer for MY life in the end.

:applause: Well said, Tank. Very well said, indeed. :xyzthumbs

[ECILAM]

Former fundamentalist Christian turned Rebel Angel. As a teen I clung more fervently to the dogma of my faith than anyone in my family, even considered "surrendering" to the ministry. And it fucked me up far worse than heavy metal, Dungeons & Dragons or the Playboy Channel ever could.

Whole books could be written for or against following the teachings of an ancient scripture or prophet. For me, it is simply impossible to pretend there is some Fairy Godfather in the sky protecting the good and punishing the wicked in a world where the most insidious wrongdoers are the most prosperous among us, while six-year-old little girls can be tortured, raped and murdered for some weak slug's sexual frustration. Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists get cancer and die in car wrecks just like everyone else. As for the "afterlife," we have no way of knowing what lies beyond, far less any reason to fear being tortured for eternity just because we didn't go to church and lived life free and happy, following our own path.

Unlike some people, I'm at peace with the fact that we're all different, and no two people will view the world in the same way. So this is what works for me:

I believe in Life, Freedom, Laughter, and Indulgence. I believe in the Law of Nature and the reality of Chaos. I strive for happiness by mastering the Inner Trinity of Fear, Desire, and Will. Tame the Demon, Tempt the Angel. No matter what the roll of the dice may bring me, I will deal with my circumstances to the best advantage of myself and those who matter to me. I will survive or die free. If that makes me a "devil," so be it. The Devil throws the best parties anyway. If there is a God, and he has a problem with me among all of history's villians, he/she/it is not worthy of my worship, and Heaven would be Hell to me anyway.

"Good" is Freedom. "Evil" is the denial of freedom.

ECILAM :sagrin:

[Miss tery]

Not really a religion, more a practical recipe for the future:
http://www.extropy.org/ideas/principles.html

[friend]

major yawn

[gridfaniker]

Originally posted by friend
My asshole is stretched as big as a hoola-hoop. I can accomodate six elephant cocks and a rolled-up sleeping bag...all at the same time!

[lushboobs]

Originally posted by ecilam
Former fundamentalist Christian turned Rebel Angel. As a teen I clung more fervently to the dogma of my faith than anyone in my family, even considered "surrendering" to the ministry. And it fucked me up far worse than heavy metal, Dungeons & Dragons or the Playboy Channel ever could.

Whole books could be written for or against following the teachings of an ancient scripture or prophet. For me, it is simply impossible to pretend there is some Fairy Godfather in the sky protecting the good and punishing the wicked in a world where the most insidious wrongdoers are the most prosperous among us, while six-year-old little girls can be tortured, raped and murdered for some weak slug's sexual frustration. Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists get cancer and die in car wrecks just like everyone else. As for the "afterlife," we have no way of knowing what lies beyond, far less any reason to fear being tortured for eternity just because we didn't go to church and lived life free and happy, following our own path.

Unlike some people, I'm at peace with the fact that we're all different, and no two people will view the world in the same way. So this is what works for me:

I believe in Life, Freedom, Laughter, and Indulgence. I believe in the Law of Nature and the reality of Chaos. I strive for happiness by mastering the Inner Trinity of Fear, Desire, and Will. Tame the Demon, Tempt the Angel. No matter what the roll of the dice may bring me, I will deal with my circumstances to the best advantage of myself and those who matter to me. I will survive or die free. If that makes me a "devil," so be it. The Devil throws the best parties anyway. If there is a God, and he has a problem with me among all of history's villians, he/she/it is not worthy of my worship, and Heaven would be Hell to me anyway.

"Good" is Freedom. "Evil" is the denial of freedom.

ECILAM :sagrin:

yeah, what he said!

[ECILAM]

:smooch: :luxlove: