View Full Version : when will chris rix transfer?
it's got to be soon.
the team hates him. the fans hate him. he's not a good quarterback.
it's time for him to switch positions (receiver? cornerback?) or switch schools.
for the record, i'm glad fsu is losing. this program needs an enema and they won't get one without losing first.
Think Bowden goes along with him? I don't think they'll get any good successors in from here on out and the guys who would have been candidates are now coaching elsewhere.
Rix? He's not terrible. He's not very good, but he's not really horrible, either, and he's not the reason they're not winning. Well, he's one of the reasons. Guess they can't recruit the best ends, receivers, linemen, linebackers, and corners every year, but they've had a couple of ass years. Your mention of a good cleaning out suggests that maybe it's time for new blood?
He's young, Larry. In years past, he wouldn't be starting yet.
I think yall problems have less to do with Rix and more to do with a bad defense and little consistancy on offense. Your offense isn't playing up to their skill level. Sort of like TN, without the injuries.
rix is a huge part of the problem -- internally. players just don't like him. he's cocky without being able to back it up. he doesnt trust his receivers or backs. he just hasnt progressed. this was his 20th start.
weinke knew he wasn't the playmaker. hell, all fsu qbs have known that. they are just the triggermen -- its their job to get the ball to the backs and receivers and let THEM make the plays.
rix thinks he's the best player on the field and that he can make EVERY play. everyone boos him for running instead of waiting for receivers to get open.
rix won't be a good quarterback until he learns to be humble, listen and be a part of a TEAM.
oh, and the defense is horrid.
i'm sick and tired of getting the "top-rated" recruits. all hype. no substance.
Top rated recruits never seemed to hurt for that ten year run. There's not as much talent coming in, there's not as much coaching talent behind Bowden. Think you might be touching on what I was saying with Bowden?
oh, there's a TON of problems right now and i've gone over most of them before:
* lack of leadership (from players and coaches)
* bowden's getting old (lost his competitive edge, coaches not to lose)
* lack of quality recruits (miami never gets the top-rated guys, but they get PLAYERS)
* lack of good coaching (amato was the glue that bridged the age gap between players and coaches)
* players (and fans and coaches) think that they are good enough to beat anyone.
* lack of a good heirarchy of playcalling -- QB coach darryl dickey calls the plays, OC jeff bowden has veto power and HC bobby bowden has veto over jeff. too many cooks in the kitchen.
i'd love to have a guy like stoops. young, driven, hard-nosed.
something's going to happen in the next couple of years. it'll be big because bowden will be out. i just don't wnat to wait as long as alabama did to recover.
from what i've heard, bowden is recommending amato to be his sucessor and amato doesn't particulary like bowden's boys.
fine by me.
BearBryant
10-27-02, 12:04 PM
What happened to FSU? Losing Amato and Richt is what happened to FSU.
i'm ready to get a whole new set of young coaches in there.
let's get the rebuilding started.
mattarific
10-28-02, 09:41 AM
responing to the rix issue, i remember the first year watching him play carolina. the whole game the announcers were saying that rix was raw and needed time to develop. well, hes had time to develop. i think he might have a touch of the chris sims desease... you know "dissapearforbiggameitus". i dont like fsu or bowden, but i do like the acc and we need powerhouses bad in the acc and it would be a shame if florida state fell off the map.
adrian mcpherson is starting at wak next week
like i said, rix won't start another game for fsu.
everyone down here -- except papa bowden -- can see that mcpherson looks like charlie ward on the field.
bowden is loyal to a fault. with his players and coaches.
What year is he?
As an outsider looking in, one assumed Rix was simply unchallenged. It's not as if he's a Senior. One has to wonder if their was an option B, why wasn't he given a look earlier.
BearBryant
10-29-02, 08:08 AM
I think AM has played. Led FSU to a TD or drove them right down in a few plays and then Pix came back in.
from what ive heard, rix has been borderline insubordinate. went back and cried to his peronal QB coach in california that the fsu coaches (darryl dickey -- who i hope DOES leave to become tennessee OC next year) were trying to make him change his motion.
rix never understood that it was his job to get the ball to the playmakers. he thought he was the playmaker.
he and LB michael boulware should be starting in fsu's secondary next season.
boulware will. mark that down. safety is his only future position in the nfl.
Originally posted by LarryD
bowden is loyal to a fault. with his players and coaches.
that works for and against you larry. It gives a kid with rough edges the confidence that if he screws up a little he wont' be yanked right away. Also gives a showboat the opportunity to showboat with impunity. That's why mark richt went crying to bowden when schellenburger went with kosar over him when richts turn to start came up. Bowden had recruited him heavily, and richt figured to redshirt a year and start for fsu in has final year. Bowden sent him back to miami. Had bowden recruited richt as a freshman fsu would have been subjected to 2 years of richt starting, schenllenburger always went with the better talent, no matter what was said at recruiting time.
smashmouth5
10-30-02, 03:51 PM
Me thinks Papa Bowden needs to get his tail to Charlotte and talk to Chris Leak.
i think mcpherson can do the job, but the coaching staff needs to get its act together. they get outcoached each game and the delay in calling a play is ridiculous. it has to go through three meadsets before being called.
fsu's headsets went dead the last three minutes of the notre dame game. some are speculating that's why fsu could then move the ball so well -- because jeff bowden was able to call the plays from ground-level without darryl dickey and bobo getting in the way.
four years later, nothing's changed.
this sucks.
fsu's offense is #95 in the country and the rushing offense is #118.
fsu offense through the years:
1987 -- #? (487 ypg, 40.9 ppg, 11-1 record)
1988 -- #? (443 ypg, 40.2 ppg, 11-1 record)
1989 -- #? (451 ypg, 34.8 ppg, 10-2 record)
1990 -- #? (447 ypg, 39.5 ppg, 10-2 record)
1991 -- #? (450 ypg, 36.6 ppg, 11-2 record)
1992 -- #? (462 ypg, 38.1 ppg, 11-1 record)
1993 -- #? (548 ypg, 43.2 ppg, 12-1 record)
1994 -- #? (483 ypg, 36.8 ppg, 10-1-1 record)
1995 -- #? (551 ypg, 44.3 ppg, 10-2 record)
1996 -- #? (409 ypg, 38.7 ppg, 11-1 record)
1997 -- #8 (452 ypg, 39.7 ppg, 11-1 record)
1998 --#? (401 ypg, 32.1 ppg, 11-2 record)
1999 -- #12 (425 ypg, 35.4 ppg, 12-0 record)
2000 -- #1 (549 ypg, 42.4 ppg, 11-1 record)
----- mark richt leaves -----
2001 -- #26 (426 ypg, 33.9 ppg, 7-4 record)
2002 -- #32 (398 ypg, 28.1 ppg, 9-5 record)
2003 -- #37 (402 ypg, 32.2 ppg, 10-3 record)
2004 -- #61 (372 ypg, 25.2 ppg, 9-5 record)
2005 -- #59 (376 ypg, 28.9 ppg, 8-5 record)
2006 -- #95 (278 ypg, 18.5 ppg, 2-0 record)
Freakshow
09-11-06, 01:51 PM
Larry...
It has NOTHING to do with Richt leaving. They just don't have any talent on offense. Outside of WR. Even though recruiting is as good as ever...they do NOT have the talent on that side of the ball.
Richt's leaving had NOTHING to do with their problems.
Why do I think this?
Collin said so! :allhail
Why do I think this? Because you got your ass whipped in an argument that showed you're a know-nothing jackass? Being a Gamecock fan doesn't mean you know college football. In fact, it probably explains why you thought Amato was a coordinator at FSU. Now crawl back up your boyfriend's ass and die.
Oh, and substituting "----- chris weinke leaves -----" for "----- mark richt leaves -----" gives you the same thing. Now can you and the ignorant admin take this thread to the college football forum where it actually belongs?
vpkozel
09-11-06, 02:04 PM
* lack of quality recruits (miami never gets the top-rated guys, but they get PLAYERS)
Weren't you disputing this in that other FSU thread?
Freakshow
09-11-06, 02:04 PM
Because you got your ass whipped in an argument that showed you're a know-nothing jackass? Being a Gamecock fan doesn't mean you know college football. In fact, it probably explains why you thought Amato was a coordinator at FSU. Now crawl back up your boyfriend's ass and die.
Oh, and substituting "----- chris weinke leaves -----" for "----- mark richt leaves -----" gives you the same thing. Now can you and the ignorant admin take this thread to the college football forum where it actually belongs?
You are so right. I know nothing about football...much less college. And trying to match wits with you is just...well...insane. I'd be better off jumping off a cliff. You are the all knowing Collin. :229031_ha
Now can you and the ignorant admin take this thread to the college football forum where it actually belongs?
oops. sorry -- i was bumping an old thread. i'll move it.
Weren't you disputing this in that other FSU thread?
that's what i thought to be true four years ago. now i see how it's top-ranked players who aren't being coached-up once they get to tallahassee.
vpkozel
09-11-06, 02:30 PM
that's what i thought to be true four years ago. now i see how it's top-ranked players who aren't being coached-up once they get to tallahassee.
Who were theses top ranked players? I really can't think of any great FSU offensive players from the last few years.
I think that Rix is actually the perfect example of what I was talking about. He's your Adam Boone.
Who were theses top ranked players? I really can't think of any great FSU offensive players from the last few years.
I think that Rix is actually the perfect example of what I was talking about. He's your Adam Boone.
well, like i said, rix wasn't supposed to be the starter -- the starter was supposed to be joe mauer. anquan boldin came in with rix, too -- as a QB.
here's a story for you:
Notebook: Mauer indeed was a hit -- just not for 'Noles
By Dennis Dodd
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer
Jeff Bowden's quality of life would be better, wouldn't it?
Certainly the Chris Rix debacle never would have happened, right?
With a certain former Florida State quarterback hitting .392, it's worth asking the question about Joe Mauer: What if?
What if major league baseball's current average leader had decided on football over baseball after signing with FSU in February 2001? Safe to say it could have spared Jeff, FSU's offensive coordinator, and daddy Bobby years of quarterback heartache.
The Twins sealed the deal that year when they passed up Mark Prior (good for them) for the more signable Mauer (bad for the 'Noles). Mauer couldn't resist being taken by his hometown team.
"I told (Joe) quit hitting the curve ball, don't hit the curve ball," Bobby Bowden told CBS SportsLine in '01. "Let them strike you out."
Today, Mauer is a 23-year old rising superstar catcher. But had he honored his football commitment in 2001, this would have been Mauer's NFL draft year. That's assuming he would have red-shirted and played four years.
Without Mauer, assuming anything for a Florida State quarterback has been a risk.
The position hasn't been the same since Chris Weinke walked off the field after an Orange Bowl loss to Oklahoma in January 2001. Weinke won the Heisman that season, leading the 'Noles to the BCS title game.
Losing the nation's No. 1 high school quarterback to a pro baseball contract four months later coincided with the "decline" of Florida State football. That 2000 season was the last of the incredible 14 consecutive top five finishes by FSU.
Coincidence?
"If Mauer stayed, it would have been the worst decision of his life," said recruiting analyst Tom Lemming. "Now Mauer is approaching DiMaggio-esque status in baseball. If he'd have gone football, he may be out of sports now."
Whether the quarterbacks haven't been good enough or the talent around them wasn't talented enough, FSU has struggled since Mauer said no.
The 11 touchdowns thrown in 2004 were the fewest since Bowden's first year in 1976. Last year, the running game was ranked 109th and the team lost five games for the second time in four years. Somehow, FSU won another ACC title.
Bobby Bowden did go into that '01 signing day that year with his eyes wide open. Mauer, stud quarterback at Cretin-Durham Hall in Minneapolis, let it be known that he favored baseball over football.
Still, Bowden thought the risk was worth offering a scholarship. Weinke, another former Cretin-Durham star, signed in 1991, only to return from minor league baseball years later to win a Heisman Trophy.
The difference was that Weinke actually showed up on campus in August 1991 and bombed out of baseball after six years in the minors.
"They (Florida State) were kind of hoping Mauer would stick around," said rivals.com's Jeremy Crabtree. "Everybody knew when they recruited him that (baseball) was a factor. That was one reason he went to Florida State, they had a great baseball program."
It could have been the Mauer, the merrier. Instead:
* There was a double blow that year. Offensive coordinator Mark Richt left for Georgia in 2001. At the time, he was recruiting Mauer, Brodie Croyle and D.J. Shockley for the 'Noles. FSU got none of them.
* When Mauer went to baseball, FSU was essentially down to two scholarship quarterbacks -- Rix and Anquan Boldin. Boldin had played receiver previously and never panned out as a quarterback. Rix? He sported Christian values, a muscle car and an inconsistent arm (and head). To put it mildly.
* Matt Henshaw and Adrian McPherson arrived as freshman in fall 2001. Henshaw was a non-factor. McPherson eventually embarrassed himself and the school in the infamous bad-check, gambling scandal.
* Fabian Walker made Florida State one of his collegiate three stops, actually starting the 2003 Sugar Bowl.
* Sexton started seven games in 2003 and was the full-time starter in 2004.
The next great one, finally, might be Drew Weatherford. The ACC freshman of the year last season threw for 18 touchdowns behind a beat-up offensive line.
Hey, it has only been 5½ years since Mauer signed his letter. A lifetime for FSU fans.
vpkozel
09-11-06, 03:08 PM
You are kind of proving my point Larry. In each of those 5 1/2 years, FSU was still getting high marks on their recruiting classes. And there is no way that FSU should be waiting 5 1/2 years to fill such a premium position.
I'm telling you - I have lived through this, and when you look back on it you'll see that I'm right.
People are recruiting against Bowden's age. Add in the fact that the offense has sucked so bad lately and they are using that to their advantage too.
You are kind of proving my point Larry. In each of those 5 1/2 years, FSU was still getting high marks on their recruiting classes. And there is no way that FSU should be waiting 5 1/2 years to fill such a premium position.
I'm telling you - I have lived through this, and when you look back on it you'll see that I'm right.
People are recruiting against Bowden's age. Add in the fact that the offense has sucked so bad lately and they are using that to their advantage too.
like i said, there were a lot of factors.
the recruits are good, but they aren't being coached-up and the gameplans suck ass.
vpkozel
09-11-06, 04:02 PM
like i said, there were a lot of factors.
the recruits are good, but they aren't being coached-up and the gameplans suck ass.
If the recruits were that good, then some of them would be making an impact on Sundays. Honestly, FSU only needs to have a halfway decent gameplan in like 2-3 games per year.
The gameplan for Wake should be line up/knock them over/throw the ball over them.
these are the national championship teams and the ranking (by superprep) of their recruiting class the previous five years. they are sorted by overall class average ranking.
'97 Michigan 4, 7, 7, 4, 3 -- 5.0
'99 Florida St. 7, 7, 3, 13, 3 -- 6.6
'96 Florida 13, 3, 14, 8, 1 -- 7.8
'02 Ohio State 3, 15, 8, 2, 13 -- 8.2
'98 Tennessee 8, 8, 8, 18, 1 -- 8.6
'03 USC 1, 7, 19, 11, 14 -- 10.4
'03 LSU 3, 19, 2, 26, 9 -- 11.8
'97 Nebraska 19, 4, 8, 20, 18 -- 13.8
'01 Miami 9, 7, 11, 20, 13 -- 14.0
'95 Nebraska 8, 20, 18, 14, 28 -- 17.6
'94 Nebraska 20, 18, 14, 28, 10 -- 18.0
'00 Oklahoma 19, 36, 20, 24, 32 -- 26.2
here are rivals.com rankings of fsu's previous eight recruiting classes:
1999 -- #15
2000 -- #3
2001 -- #1
2002 -- #1
2003 -- #7
2004 -- #3
2005 -- #3
2006 -- #3
obviously, fsu is getting recruits that are "good enough" to win a championship with. it's what happens to that talent once it gets here that's sad.
Honestly, FSU only needs to have a halfway decent gameplan in like 2-3 games per year.
The gameplan for Wake should be line up/knock them over/throw the ball over them.
hahahahahaah. not this FSU. not these days.
the FSU you're thinking of is the one that lost EIGHTEEN games in FOURTEEN seasons (87-00).
the fsu you see playing now has lost TWENTY-ONE games in FIVE seasons (01-05).
five-star offensive players:
2001:
Eric Shelton: #2 running back
Joe Mauer: #1 overall recruit, #1 quarterback
2002:
Lorenzo Booker: #3 overall recruit, #1 RB recruit
Chris Davis: #6 prospect overall, #2 athlete in the country
Leon washington: #9 overall recruit, #1 DB
Dishon Platt: #16 overall recruit, #2 WR recruit
Chauncey Stovall:
2003:
2004:
Xavier Lee
2005:
Fred Rouse
i've got to update this list later today, but i'll post it now for a start.
Larry, he's trying to explain to you that the guys you've gotten on offense have sucked ass regardless of whatever god damned rank they had in high school. They sucked, end of story. They didn't suck because of play calling or because they had bad position coaches. They sucked because they suck.
vpkozel
09-11-06, 04:51 PM
Larry, he's trying to explain to you that the guys you've gotten on offense have sucked ass regardless of whatever god damned rank they had in high school. They sucked, end of story. They didn't suck because of play calling or because they had bad position coaches. They sucked because they suck.
He'll thank me later. Call it the Brain fucking Morrison syndrome. After seeing him and Boone dribble ball after ball off their legs, I really just had to start asking myself what teh hell these analysts are thinking.
Larry, he's trying to explain to you that the guys you've gotten on offense have sucked ass regardless of whatever god damned rank they had in high school. They sucked, end of story. They didn't suck because of play calling or because they had bad position coaches. They sucked because they suck.
you're funny.
so, fsu is the only school who has over rated players?
what about all of the other schools who are recruiting "better" players?
i'm not catching it...
you guys are wrong. fsu's "coaching" sucks and has for a long time. if you actually went to games or covered the team then you'd know.
you want to see how ignorant bowden is? let me find you some quotes...
Q: Is the personality of this team that it's not going to be a team that has 300 yards passing and 200 yards rushing?
A: "You know what my answer to that is? And it might be wrong. But it's 'who cares?' Who cares how you do it? This whole thing about having to establish the run to win, we've already proven two dadgum weeks in a row that ain't right. Now the odds might be better."
Q: Does that worry you that down the road when you are recruiting that it may be tougher to get the great running back?
A: "That will help us. We'll tell 'em, 'you can help us run if we can get you, son. Son, you can solve all our problems. We can't run the ball. We need you."
"I don't like offensive football the way it is nowadays. Offensive football today is a game of formations. When I used to work the offense, you lined up in one formation and you played that way the whole game. You could tell every thing the other team was doing. If they did this, you go there. If they did this, you go here. If they do this, you do that. But now it's 'put this formation in and they do this. Put this formation in and they do that.' Try to always get some kind of a mismatch. But that's the way the pros play it. Colleges are the same way."
1. even if some of FSU's recruits were overrated, don't you think they should do better than TWENTY ONE losses in five years?
2. how do you explain steve spurrier's offensive success? hardly any of his players amounted to worth a darn on sundays yet he had heisman winner and put up numbers and TDs all day long.
3. which teams are the best recruiters? louisville? west virginia? which teams have the best coaches? are they two differnt things?
Freakshow
09-11-06, 07:08 PM
Larry...they won't "get it." They don't want to. And you know Collin will NEVER get it. It's his way or no way. How many games does he go to? Who is his team? What recruiting sites does he pay to be a member of? Just curious. Hell, the Rivals guy for the Gamecocks works his ass off. I've known him since 2nd grade. He spends about 60 hours per week on that site...but Collin knows recruiting better. Rivals has a staff of 100's that put in that time. So does Scout...but Collin knows recruiting better. He likes to point out that I said Amato was a D Coordinator for FSU. Ooops. I screwed up. Don't follow ACC like I do SEC. I admit it. Fact is....he doesn't know shit about college talent and how "coaching up" is as important as is what you recruit.
It's OBVIOUS that FSU is getting the cream of the crop...but once it gets there they stop growing. They stagnate. Before Richt left, they continued to get better.
Georgia, Miami, Florida, Auburn...they are all trying to get the same people. You can see on Rivals that the highly touted recruits at FSU have offers from all the biggies. Richt WANTED those guys...he just lost out on them. Same with Tubberville, Coker, etc...
preach it, brother freak.
so, fsu is the only school who has over rated players? Definitely not. Miami went through its own down period where it wasn't picking the right players, just as many other schools have. Unfortunately the problem becomes cyclical where a stud high school OT says, "I'm not going to FSU because they don't put guys into the pros while Miami does," so FSU's big recruiting names tend to be at the same positions they've been strong at - WR and DEF.
if you actually went to games or covered the team then you'd know. You're too close to the issue, Larry, and like many such emotionally-tied people, you can't differentiate fact from bias.
Fact:
FSU isn't putting many offensive players into the NFL except at WR.
Fact:
The position Jeff Bowden coaches also happens to be the offensive position where FSU has by far its greatest success.
Fact:
Freshmen are having huge success in college football these days, and yet FSU's aren't, thus showing that it isn't a matter of being "coached up."
Fact:
Most of the position coaches are the same ones who were there under Richt, so his departure shouldn't have affected the "coaching up."
Fact:
Freakshow is a moron who has shown no knowledge of college football whatsoever.
Fact:
I am a published writer who has analyzed the draft for years, specifically with the purpose of evaluating talent that was either masked or exaggerated by college systems.
Opinion:
Your offensive linemen, quarterbacks, and running backs fucking suck, and have for a good while now.
you want to see how ignorant bowden is? This is all just about scape-goating. It's easier to create a villain responsible for something unwanted than to simply acknowledge that it's difficult if not impossible to sustain dominance forever. Bowden isn't Richt, and I've been clear about that all along, but at the same time it's painfully obvious that FSU's offensive players just aren't nearly as good as they used to be. It isn't just a matter of play-calling, it's a matter of performance quality. Your bitching is exactly the same as certain fans previously bitching about Henning back when our offensive players sucked. Meanwhile Freakshow is only in this thread because his pussy hurts.
mathmajors
09-11-06, 08:10 PM
Rix has got to go. He's awful.
Freakshow
09-11-06, 09:09 PM
Definitely not. Miami went through its own down period where it wasn't picking the right players, just as many other schools have. Unfortunately the problem becomes cyclical where a stud high school OT says, "I'm not going to FSU because they don't put guys into the pros while Miami does," so FSU's big recruiting names tend to be at the same positions they've been strong at - WR and DEF.
You're too close to the issue, Larry, and like many such emotionally-tied people, you can't differentiate fact from bias.
Fact:
FSU isn't putting many offensive players into the NFL except at WR.
Fact:
The position Jeff Bowden coaches also happens to be the offensive position where FSU has by far its greatest success.
Fact:
Freshmen are having huge success in college football these days, and yet FSU's aren't, thus showing that it isn't a matter of being "coached up."
Fact:
Most of the position coaches are the same ones who were there under Richt, so his departure shouldn't have affected the "coaching up."
Fact:
Freakshow is a moron who has shown no knowledge of college football whatsoever.
Fact:
I am a published writer who has analyzed the draft for years, specifically with the purpose of evaluating talent that was either masked or exaggerated by college systems.
Opinion:
Your offensive linemen, quarterbacks, and running backs fucking suck, and have for a good while now.
This is all just about scape-goating. It's easier to create a villain responsible for something unwanted than to simply acknowledge that it's difficult if not impossible to sustain dominance forever. Bowden isn't Richt, and I've been clear about that all along, but at the same time it's painfully obvious that FSU's offensive players just aren't nearly as good as they used to be. It isn't just a matter of play-calling, it's a matter of performance quality. Your bitching is exactly the same as certain fans previously bitching about Henning back when our offensive players sucked. Meanwhile Freakshow is only in this thread because his pussy hurts.
You are wrong on SO many levels. It's like argueing with a fucking wall.:banginghe
I've also seen the "publication" you were published in. Bottom line...Scout and Rivals are THE publications. If you aren't covering recruiting for them, you are no different than the rest of us. Matter of fact, I don't think you really UNDERSTAND college ball...the importance of recruiting...getting the recruits ready to contribute...and at what position.
You take FSU's recruits for the past 5 years and put them with them coaches from 7-8 years ago and they'd be just as good. It's simply impossible to recruit that many blue chip kids and have that many bust. That shows there is a problem. Every school misses on a few...it happens.
:agreed:
You are wrong on SO many levels. Funny how you keep saying that, canyon hole, and yet you can't actually point out any place where I'm wrong. Since it's obvious that I'm wrong on so many levels, how stupid are you that you can't even point out one?
Scout and Rivals are THE publications. Scout and Rivals cover high school athletes entering college, you dumbshit. I don't even look at that. I cover college athletes entering the NFL.
I don't think you really UNDERSTAND college ball I'm the one who doesn't understand? You're so fucking stupid you didn't even know that Chuck Amato wasn't a coordinator at FSU. Who didn't know that shit? What even casual football fan doesn't know that Mickey Andrews has been DC there forever?
It's simply impossible to recruit that many blue chip kids and have that many bust. It's not impossible at all, and moreover, I keep pointing out to you that those stellar recruiting classes were built mainly on WRs and defensive players. Unfortunately you're such a moron that you can't comprehend that.
Definitely not. Miami went through its own down period where it wasn't picking the right players, just as many other schools have. Unfortunately the problem becomes cyclical where a stud high school OT says, "I'm not going to FSU because they don't put guys into the pros while Miami does," so FSU's big recruiting names tend to be at the same positions they've been strong at - WR and DEF.
You're too close to the issue, Larry, and like many such emotionally-tied people, you can't differentiate fact from bias.
This is all just about scape-goating. It's easier to create a villain responsible for something unwanted than to simply acknowledge that it's difficult if not impossible to sustain dominance forever. Bowden isn't Richt, and I've been clear about that all along, but at the same time it's painfully obvious that FSU's offensive players just aren't nearly as good as they used to be. It isn't just a matter of play-calling, it's a matter of performance quality. Your bitching is exactly the same as certain fans previously bitching about Henning back when our offensive players sucked. Meanwhile Freakshow is only in this thread because his pussy hurts.
i'm not going to name-call or use foul language. no need.
i can appreciate you thinking that ii'm too close to be objective. i understand where you're coming from. but please give me some credit. i'm not approcahing this as a fan -- i'm approching it as someone with intimate knowledge of a program that can't be gleaned from a television or reading stories on the internet. i know people who coach. i go to their parties. they are clients of my mom. i live next door to them. my brother is friends with the players. michael boulware is one of their best friends. i know the guys who cover the beat. two of them just gave me an advance copy of their book on bowden to review. i know inside information about players, coaches and the program.
while i have been going to fsu football games since 1976, i'm not speaking as just a fan here. please give me some credit. i know when i'm talking out of my ass.
to your facts:
Fact: FSU isn't putting many offensive players into the NFL except at WR.
FSU's 23 nfl offensive draft picks (from 2000-2006):
Offensive linemen: alex barron, ray willis, montre holland, brett williams, todd williams, milford brown, charron dorsey
Running backs: leon washington, greg jones, travis minor
Wide receivers: willie reid, craphonso thorpe, p.k. Sam, anquan boldin, talman gardner, javon walker, marvin minnis, peter warrick, ron dugans, laveranues coles
quarterback: chris weinke, adrian mcpherson
kicker: sebastian janikowski
FYI: Anquan boldin and peter warrick signed as a quarterbacks. Willie reid and lava coles were recruited as running backs.
By round: first round (4), second round (2), third round (5), fourth round (6), fifth round (2), sixth round (1), seventh round (3)
The previous seven years, (from 1993 to 1999), fsu had 23 offensive players drafted. that's putting a lot of players into the nfl.
Fact: The position Jeff Bowden coaches also happens to be the offensive position where FSU has by far its greatest success.
that's because he ignores the running game. “I don’t want to deal with the running game,” Jeff Bowden said. “I’m not going to sit here wondering why we’re not blocking this guy or that guy.” pathetic from an offensive coordinator. besides, fsu's receivers are where its best athletes end up. if anything, the receivers under jeff bowden have been underacheivers. our receivers haven't been as precise, tough or reliable ever since john eason left fsu (he went to clemson with brad scott). fsu's receivers under eason never had the athletic ability of the guys that get turned out now, but they made up for it BY BEING COACHED-UP into great college football players. fsu gets far fewer TDs by wide receivers in the red zone now than in the late 80s and early 90s.
Fact: Freshmen are having huge success in college football these days, and yet FSU's aren't, thus showing that it isn't a matter of being "coached up."
uh, bowden doesn't play freshmen. if you followed the program, you'd know that. bowden has always beleived in paying your dues as an underclassman, then earning your PT. that's one of the negative recruiting tactics employed by other schools, "you know bobby won't play you as a freshman, come here and we'll make you the focus of our offense...blah blah blah." without even looking it up anywhere, i can tell you the freshmen offensive players who have done ANYTHING at fsu under bowden: qb chip ferguson, rb greg allen, p charlie ward, rb warrick dunn, rb travis minor, wr greg carr, k scott bentley, qb drew weatherford. that's in 30 years. fans see what is going on around the country with true freshmen getting on the field at other schools and contributing and wish that bowden would change his ways. they couldn't get rid of rix fast enough here (he was benched twice, but twice arose from the dead like in a horror film) so that's why weatherford was given the helm as a freshman. carr didn't start last year, even though he came on with 9 tds. hell, he didn't even start THIS year -- that goes to upperclassmen decody fagg and chris davis. everybody knows that the infinitely-more-talented sophmore antone smith should be fsu's starting running back, but the upperclassman booker gets the nod. fsu oes have two promising freshman tight ends who get PT this year because the upperclassman is injured. brandon warren will play so well that he won't be taken out.
Fact: Most of the position coaches are the same ones who were there under Richt, so his departure shouldn't have affected the "coaching up."
what position coaches are the same? billy sexton still "coaches" the running backs, but that's it.
since the 2000 orange bowl loss, i've wanted the whole coaching staff (except mickey) purged. that was jeff bowden's first as offensive coordinator -- and boy, was it ever offensive. ugh.
what qb has developed since richt left fsu?
former fsu qb peter tom willis, who does the fsu football color ccommentary on the radio broadcasts, said on the air during the clemson loss that seminoles needed to scrap "this high-school offense."
terry bowden said on his radio show that "If I were still coaching and if I were Bobby Bowden, I'd have my coaches go to Auburn during the offseason and copy their scheme. Line up your tailback 8 yards deep, and let him get a running start. Fake it to the tailback and hit the tight ends. Use play-action to get the wide receivers open. That's what I would do."
chris rix's dad says: "My son was made a scapegoat for the offensive ineptitude. Funny, but the many problems Chris was blamed for are still there now that he's gone. My son was never developed like he should have been. He was stuck in second gear his whole time there. Chris was recruited by Mark Richt to play quarterback at Florida State, but when Coach Richt left [to become the head coach at Georgia], we weren't playing for Florida State anymore. We were playing for the Bobby Bowden Friends and Family Network."
Fact: I am a published writer who has analyzed the draft for years, specifically with the purpose of evaluating talent that was either masked or exaggerated by college systems.
...over the internet. when you get out to college campuses and see and talk to these players and coaches (as i have), let me know. i do think that given the chance to do so, you may be pretty good. but until until i see you on the sidelines at practices or attending pro days with nfl scouts, i hope you understand when i say that you are exaggerating your talent.
Opinion: Your offensive linemen, quarterbacks, and running backs fucking suck, and have for a good while now.
(a) no, they don't. (b) define suck. (c) since when?
look at the draft info above. that's about two non-wr offensive players that get drafted by the nfl each year for the past seven years. toss in the wide receivers and there's no way these offenses should be ranked anywhere but the top 10 in the national stats. these teams should be scoring at least four TDs a game and they aren't.
when louisville can lose it's BEST PLAYER and go out the next week and roll up 600+ yards of offense and hang 60+ points on ANYBODY, then why can't a loaded fsu team score only 10 points against troy state in three and a half quarters of football in its home opener?
news flash: it's the coaching.
listen, fsu had a good run. i understand that no program can stay on top forever and it's fsu's turn for a downswing. i get that. it happens. it's innevitable.
i love me some bobby. he's an icon. he's a legend. he is florida state. but it's over. he needs to step aside.
bobby has already said that he will never fire his son. ever. so, fsu is stuck with them until bowden retires. which he won't do until after joe paterno calls it quits. nepotism sucks and there's a reason that it's illegal and that fsu had to skirt the law to make the coach's son offensive coordinator. it's a political mess down here because nobody has the nuts to say, "bobby, it's time to call it a career."
I keep pointing out to you that those stellar recruiting classes were built mainly on WRs and defensive players.
i haven't seen you back that up yet, but here are the five-star recruits (rivals) fsu has signed fom 02-06:
DB myron rolle -- freshman
DT callahan bright -- prep school
LB ernie sims -- nfl
WR dishon platt -- off team
WR chauncey stovall -- nfl
WR fred rouse -- off team
TE brandon warren -- freshman
RB antone smith -- backup rb
QB xavier lee -- backup qb
RB lorenzo booker -- starting rb
ATH chris davis -- starting wr
RB leon washington -- nfl
here's some notable five-star recruits (there's only about 30 of these each year) from 2002: vince young, marcus vick, devin hester, ahmad brooks, ciatric faison, jerious norwood, haloti ngata, mercedes lewis, maurice clarrett.
i think these recruiting services get it pretty much right.
talent needs coaching to realize it's full potential.
i think these recruiting services get it pretty much right.
talent needs coaching to realize it's full potential.
I'm curious to know where our classes have ranked.
Freakshow
09-12-06, 08:59 AM
Scout and Rivals cover high school athletes entering college, you dumbshit. I don't even look at that. I cover college athletes entering the NFL.
EXACTLY!
So...you have NO knowledge AT ALL about the talent coming into FSU...only what is LEAVING FSU.
So, basically, Larry and I are 100% correct. FSU is getting GREAT recruits (as we've pointed out to you over and over). For some reason, these GREAT recruits aren't getting better once they reach the campus. That's why you don't see them going on to the NFL.
I agree with you 100% that they aren't sending players to the NFL like they used to. But I also KNOW they are still getting the same talent on campus. So something that USED to happen is not happening anymore. What has changed?
Got to be coaching.
Freakshow
09-12-06, 09:00 AM
I'm curious to know where our classes have ranked.
As good as always....
here are rivals.com rankings of fsu's previous eight recruiting classes:
1999 -- #15
2000 -- #3
2001 -- #1
2002 -- #1
2003 -- #7
2004 -- #3
2005 -- #3
2006 -- #3
i understand where you're coming from. but please give me some credit.
You don't deserve any, Larry. You're just a rabid fan who has come to blame everything that disappoints you on an easy scape-goat.
i know inside information about players, coaches and the program.
All of which makes you more biased. You being so close to things down there is what makes you that much more emotional about the issue. That's why you can't look at the field and see what every non-FSU fan sees - that your non-WR offensive players suck balls.
i know when i'm talking out of my ass.
Oh come on. You're the guy who hypes FSU players in the draft talk every year, and if they even get drafted, they usually suck. You're about as objective as Truth Detector.
FSU's 23 nfl offensive draft picks (from 2000-2006):
Dude, you just don't know when to quit. Let me illustrate why you're wrong.
Alex Barron - 1st round pick starter for the Rams. Ok, that's a good start for you.
Ray Willis - 4th round, backup RT
Montre Holland - 5th round, backup RG (behind Jamar Nesbit, for god's sakes)
Brett Williams - 4th round, out of football
Todd Williams - 7th round, out of football
Milford Brown - 6th round, starter for Arizona
Char-ron Dorsey - 7th round, out of football
Leon Washington - 4th round, 4th string RB and punt returner
Greg Jones - 2nd round, fullback
Travis Minor - 3rd round, backup RB
Willie Reid - 3rd round, 6th WR and backup returner
Craphonso Thorpe - 4th round, out of football
P.K. Sam - 5th round, out of football
Anquan Boldin - 2nd round, Pro Bowl WR
Talman Gardner - 7th round, out of football
Javon Walker - 1st round, Pro Bowl WR
Marvin Minnis - 3rd round, out of football
Peter Warrick - 1st round, out of football
Ron Dugans - 4th round, out of football
Laveranues Coles - 3rd round, starting WR
Chris Weinke - 4th round, backup QB
Adrian McPherson - 5th round, 3rd string QB
Sebastian Janikowski - 1st round, kicker
The previous seven years, (from 1993 to 1999), fsu had 23 offensive players drafted.
And those players were a hell of a lot better. Do you see any Tra Thomases, Walter Joneses, or Warrick Dunns in the 2000-2005 group? No. Thanks for making my point.
that's because he ignores the running game.
Here's your bias again. Even if we assume that he ignores the running game, which he doesn't, what would that have to do with WR development? Freakshow argued that the position coaches suck at FSU, but you, Larry, said that the WRs have been a greta success. Well, Jeff Bowden coaches the WRs and has for the last 12 years.
if anything, the receivers under jeff bowden have been underacheivers.
:rolleyes: LarryD says in a previous thread: "fsu offensive players suck? anquan boldin sucks? javon walker sucks?"
uh, bowden doesn't play freshmen.
I thought Chris Rix did in '01, but I guess he was a redshirt freshman. I know Leon Washington did. Boldin also did, as have others. But in any case, you're missing the point. Players with no significant college coaching at other programs do better than what FSU's non-WR offensive players do. It's not just a matter of coaching.
what position coaches are the same? billy sexton still "coaches" the running backs, but that's it.
Aren't the running backs not as good as they used to be? So Sexton suddenly decided to stop coaching them, right? Plus Jeff Bowden has been the WR coach for 12 years. Jimmy Heggins also coached the offensive line across that Richt gap you keep talking about (until 2005), but suddenly the offensive linemen started to suck. Did he stop coaching after Richt left too? Then John Lilly has been the TEs coach for the last 8 years. I'm fine if you want to argue that Mark Richt was a better quarterbacks coach than Daryl Dickey, but he's the only offensive position coach that changed in 2000.
when you get out to college campuses and see and talk to these players and coaches (as i have), let me know.
Larry, you're a computer guy and always have been. I knew more about football at age 15 than you do now. My track record for evaluating players, yes just by watching them on television, speaks for itself. Maybe my accuracy would be even greater if I had the time and access to watch practices, but I see things by watching games just like coaches and scouts do. That's what you don't understand because you're not capable of that kind of analysis. You think someone has to be at the game to see things, but that's absurd. The whole reason coaches and scouts watch film is because the broad perspective shot often lets you see more than sitting in the stands or press box.
(a) no, they don't. (b) define suck. (c) since when?
a) Yes, they do. You even admitted earlier in this thread that you don't get the players you used to. Remember vpkozel calling you on that?
b) Suck = they are bad players.
c) since the '99 recruiting class, and it has gotten progressively worse since then.
But I also KNOW they are still getting the same talent on campus.
This is again where you show yourself to be a complete moron. TALENT DOESN'T DISAPPEAR. You are a fucking dumbshit of the highest order. If a guy is talented out of high school and sits on the bench for four years or gets bad coaching or whatever, he's still fucking talented after those years. FSU's offensive players, aside from the WRs, don't look talented from the minute they set foot on campus. They don't look talented as freshmen, they don't look talented as seniors, and they don't look talented when the NFL comes to check them out. I already explained to your dumb ass that one of the things I specifically look for is evidence that a guy has been poorly coached or extremely well coached (in the sense that the scheme masked his weaknesses - i.e. Tedford quarterbacks). FSU offensive players still don't pass muster after factoring that in.
Now seriously, Freakshow. You have never posted a single worthwhile thing on TBR to ever even suggest that you have rudimentary intelligence. Go find a board where your stupidity fits in or just shut the fuck up when the grown ups are talking.
Freakshow
09-12-06, 10:03 AM
This is again where you show yourself to be a complete moron. TALENT DOESN'T DISAPPEAR. You are a fucking dumbshit of the highest order. If a guy is talented out of high school and sits on the bench for four years or gets bad coaching or whatever, he's still fucking talented after those years. FSU's offensive players, aside from the WRs, don't look talented from the minute they set foot on campus. They don't look talented as freshmen, they don't look talented as seniors, and they don't look talented when the NFL comes to check them out. I already explained to your dumb ass that one of the things I specifically look for is evidence that a guy has been poorly coached or extremely well coached (in the sense that the scheme masked his weaknesses - i.e. Tedford quarterbacks). FSU offensive players still don't pass muster after factoring that in.
Now seriously, Freakshow. You have never posted a single worthwhile thing on TBR to ever even suggest that you have rudimentary intelligence. Go find a board where your stupidity fits in or just shut the fuck up when the grown ups are talking.
And...once again...you are talking to hear yourself talk...
Why do you think they redshirt talented players? Learn the system. Adjust to the speed. Put on weight. Improve technique...These things aren't happening. The players that are coming out of FSU have not improved on technique, speed, etc...that's why they don't shine in college like they did in high school.
You are just plain out WRONG and your ego won't let you admit it.
And to sum up the Larry response above if the length makes it too hard to follow along:
#1) The offensive position coaches are all the same from pre-Richt to post-Richt except for A) quarterbacks and B) offensive line. And even the offensive line coach was the same until 2005, and FSU's o-linemen started sucking before that, so it cannot be the coaching for any position except arguably QBs. And if it's that, then you need to blame Daryl Dickey, but do you see Larry or any other FSU fan doing that? No, because they're morons and they stupidly want to blame Jeff Bowden regardless of the facts.
#2) No offensive position has been better for FSU in the last decade than WR. Jeff Bowden has coached WRs for that decade.
#3) Excluding kickers, FSU has only put 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, and 4 third round picks into the NFL among its offensive players since 2000. They've put 22 total offensive players into the draft during that period, with few being starters and 9 already out of football altogether. Meanwhile Miami 8 first round picks, 4 second round picks, and 5 third round picks during that period. Most of those players are still starting in the NFL, and many are superstars.
#4) Larry simultaneously says that the players aren't being coached up, but also that FSU would have been saved if Joe Mauer had come to school. He also said in separate threads that FSU still gets the best recruits, and that their recruits aren't as good as they used to be. He can't make up his mind which is actually going on because...
#5) Larry is an FSU homer. The facts show that Jeff Bowden is not the problem, or at least not the primary one, but Larry parrots that line because it's what the FSU community has collectively decided rather than just accepting the fact that the team couldn't stay on top forever. I recognize it because UNC fans went through the same thing with Matt Doherty. We didn't want to face the facts that we weren't getting the same quality of recruits without Dean, or that the program was in decline. We blamed Doherty.
You are just plain out WRONG and your ego won't let you admit it.
If I were wrong, you'd be able to point out a single thing I've actually been wrong about instead of getting your ass whipped in post after post. As I said, you haven't shown a shred of intelligence in all your posts at TBR. Seriously, show me one where you've ever said anything insightful at all. You are a clueless idiot who babbles online against people who don't share your mental retardation.
See the above points and again try to comprehend just how stupid you are.
Freakshow
09-12-06, 10:40 AM
I've already pointed it out. You have your head so far up your own ass you can't see it.
FSU gets good recruits. They don't develop them. The question is...what has happened.
You said you do NOT follow recruiting. Only the finished product as it goes into the NFL. So...you can't offer an opinion on the talent as it comes into FSU...only leaving.
FSU gets good recruits. They don't develop them.
No, FSU gets highly ranked recruits. There is a difference (and I already pointed out to you that FSU's high rankings usually come thanks to their defensive players anyway). The position coaches were all the same except for quarterbacks coach, so it's not coaching.
Freakshow
09-12-06, 10:45 AM
No, FSU gets highly ranked recruits. There is a difference (and I already pointed out to you that FSU's high rankings usually come thanks to their defensive players anyway). The position coaches were all the same except for quarterbacks coach, so it's not coaching.
But both Larry and I have pointed out others as well. Not just defense. Skill positions...OL....
Skill positions...OL.... What highly ranked O-linemen have you pointed out?
Oh, and don't take credit for Larry's work. I disagree with him, but I respect him. You're a know-nothing jackass who hasn't done anything except post Rivals rankings and insist that those won your argument even though I've proven you wrong on a hundred different angles already.
Freakshow
09-12-06, 10:59 AM
That's your opinion. I think I've supported my opinion.
And by the way...you are right...I didn't bring up the OL.
Once again I'm sourcing Rivals. They are the biggest recruiting ranking service. If you are going to source an expert...it has to be them...or Scout. I don't think you can PROVE anything more than sourcing the known expert...
OL Rankings for the Last 4 Years
2006- 6th
2005-18th
2004-4th
2003-4th
And I've pretty much tried to stay out of the sewer with you...but I think it's safe to say that most of this board thinks of you like I do. I KNOW a large chunk of the respected posters do...but I shouldn't speak for them.
Basically your an asshole. No one likes you now. No one ever has. I imagine your a miserable fat fuck that has failed repeatedly in life. You have no friends and definitely no girlfriend/fiance/wife. I'd guess you are most likely a virgin that lives in his parent's basement. You play a lot of video games and spend countless hours argueing on the internet.
You are angy at the world and everyone that lives in it. We all owe you something that you've never received.
Pretty sure this fits you to a T. I picture the Comic Book guy from the Simpsons.
I'm done talking to you. It's obvious you enjoy argueing because you have nothing else to do.
Pretty sure this fits you to a T. I picture the Comic Book guy from the Simpsons. I'm a nationally published writer with my own magazine, so I'm not hurting for notice, money, or respect. And while I'm not nearly in the shape I was in high school, I was an all-conference baseball player then and still have enough physical ability to throw a football 55 yards, so I'm not as bereft of physical ability as you wish I was. Moreover, I guarantee that I could get more numbers than you in a bar or beat you out in any type of interviewing situation. I'm an asshole because I don't tolerate stupid people such as yourself very well, not because I lack social skills. In fact, I just got back from my ten year reunion where I couldn't find time to check the OSU-Texas score because people kept coming up to ask how I'd been.
The truth is that you wish I was a failure because I make you feel small and insignificant. The problem is, you are small and insignificant while I'm better than you could ever hope to be. I'm infinitely smarter, I'm more successful, and I'm a better man than you are. You're a piece of trash who is trying to lash out because you feel humiliated about being destroyed on the internet. No one respects you and no one ever will because no one has a reason to. You are nothing to your family and so-called friends.
Freakshow
09-12-06, 11:12 AM
Nope. Sorry.
I've seen your kind before. You are VERY bitter. No friends. Never reached the potential you thought you had. Are you smart? Yes. But you're also a dick. Smart dicks don't succeed. No one wants anything to do with a dick (except for Builder and Fred).
Not going to try and sell myself to you...but I don't lack friends. Never have. Same with success. You just have to take my word for it. There's only one long term poster on this board that has known me for any length of time...and I'm not going to go down that road with you.
Get back to your basement with you D&D, comic books and video games. Your mother will have luch ready soon...
Nice talking to you....:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
I've seen your kind before. You are VERY bitter. No friends. Stick to that story. I already told you that people whose names I didn't even remember were coming up to me at the reunion and asking how I'd been. Meanwhile your "friends" are just the casual acquaintances who look for company while watching the game or hanging out, but wouldn't go out of their way to piss on you if you were on fire. My friends occasionally come from Texas and California to see me. When is the last time someone gave a shit where you were?
Smart dicks don't succeed. This is where you again illustrate your own stupidity. History is littered with "smart dicks" who changed the world. I seriously doubt I'll ever be one of those, but geniuses tend not to tolerate morons such as yourself very well (yes, and technically I am a "genius" according to IQ tests). Bill Gates was a notorious asshole, and the same goes for any number of incredibly successful people. You're so stupid that you don't even realize how the suck-asses end up working for the assholes. You don't succeed if your talent is just kissing up to other people.
The fact is that you got destroyed in this argument and you're the one who is bitter about being proven to be a know-nothing idiot. You're mad and frustrated and you're trying to make me feel bad by throwing darts that don't hit. I'm sorry for you, but the fact is that I've done pretty darn well in my life and that I have a fairly large number of people who would do anything for me because they love and respect me as a person. Meanwhile no one gives a shit about you because you're just like every other bitter "never-was" on the block.
Oh, and by the way, my X-box 360 is incredibly fun.
collin, i think you're misreading something somewhere, so let me try to make this more clear...
for six years now, i've wanted the ENTIRE COACHING STAFF to go (i would keep mickey, kevin steele and odell haggins).
problems include:
* jeff bowden
* bobby bowden
* billy sexton
* mark mchale
* darrel dickey
* jon jost
if you knew anything about this program and not what a job title says that you read on the internet, you'd know which coaches "coach" and which ones are coasting.
if you want to go back and point out where my being an fsu fan clouded my judgement on drafting players, please let me know. i think i've fairly pegged their level of talent. i've said players to avoid and players to draft. the one that i really wanted the panthers to draft was anquan boldin.
here's some doping i did in april of 2002 about the fsu draft prospects:
LB Michael Boulware (6-3, 215) -- converted receiver is a playmaker. he should return for his senior season. great character kid. not bulky at all, which will scare folks off, but he can flat out fly. drafted in round 2
WR Anquan Boldin (6-0, 210) -- before his injury, was fsu's top playmaker and was more skilled than peter warrick. we'll see how he develops this season. i'd bet that he'll be back though. drafted in round 2
DE Alonzo Jackson (6-4, 255) -- late 1st day pick. drafted in round 2
RB Greg Jones (6-1, 243) -- if he comes out, it'll be because he's a 1st or 2nd round pick. drafted in round 2
DT Darnell Dockett (6-4, 280) -- could be a top 10 pick. coming off knee injury, but should be a monster. drafted in round 3
OG Montrae Holland (6-3, 325) -- first-round potential. drafted in round 4
OT Brett Williams (6-6, 315) -- first round talent. one of fsu's best ever. drafted in round 4
LB Kendyl Pope (6-1, 215) -- in position to have a very productive season. a big hitter who needs to stop thinking so much. if he stays healthy, he'll probably come out. drafted in round 4
OT Todd Williams (6-6, 315) -- mid- to late-second day pick. drafted in round 7
OG Milford Brown (6-4, 319) -- a probable first day pick. drafted in round 6
WR Talman Gardner (6-2, 205) -- injuries have held him back, but he will bea one of rix's solid clutch options this season. he can stride and scores well. drafted in round 7
WR Robert Morgan (6-0, 190) -- second-day pick. not drafted
RB/WR Nick Maddox (5-11, 200) -- needs to really show something this season to find a niche. he'll be called a third-down back unless he does something interesting at slot receiver. not drafted
when you post this: "The facts show that Jeff Bowden is not the problem, or at least not the primary one, but Larry parrots that line because it's what the FSU community has collectively decided rather than just accepting the fact that the team couldn't stay on top forever." ...
i don't think you read where i posted this: "listen, fsu had a good run. i understand that no program can stay on top forever and it's fsu's turn for a downswing. i get that. it happens. it's innevitable. i love me some bobby. he's an icon. he's a legend. he is florida state. but it's over. he needs to step aside."
i'm not sure what points you're trying to argue when you aren't reading what i'm writing.
i think the main point of contention here seems to be that you think fsu is recruiting worse talent and that's why the offense has plummeted. and i think that fsu is recruiting similar talent and the problem lies on the coaching staff.
yes?
vpkozel
09-12-06, 11:32 AM
Aren't they pretty much the same coaches that were there when FSU was really good?
joe kines:trophy:
Is he still at Arkansas? I love his defense...reminds me of Jerry Glanville (of course, some people may not think that's a compliment)
Is he still at Arkansas? I love his defense...reminds me of Jerry Glanville (of course, some people may not think that's a compliment)
arkansas??????????? hell no, he's in God's country.
so he's at A&M. Wow...no wonder they've improved their attendance
i'm not sure what points you're trying to argue when you aren't reading what i'm writing.
I read where you said that you wanted everyone to go after that Orange Bowl loss, but that's the only place you've said that. Meanwhile you've made multiple posts blaming the entire collapse of FSU's offense on Jeff Bowden replacing Mark Richt.
Face it, Larry, you lost the argument. I can't make you believe the truth, but you lost the argument. Badly.
Aren't they pretty much the same coaches that were there when FSU was really good?
Shhh. They don't want to hear that.
for the record, i'm glad fsu is losing. this program needs an enema and they won't get one without losing first.
this is what i wrote in 2002.
Aren't they pretty much the same coaches that were there when FSU was really good?
not at all.
some of the big names that left while fsu was "really good" and before fsu started losing (2000 orange bowl):
chuck amato
jimmy callaway
connie cotrell
dr. john eason
jim gladden
jimmy heggins
mark richt
brad scott
dave van halanger
Wonder Woman
09-12-06, 01:20 PM
some of the big names that left while fsu was "really good" and before fsu started losing (2000 orange bowl):
brad scott
You're welcome to have him back. I'm sure most State fans will say the same about Amato.
Now Larry is apparently forced to outright lying because he knows he's lost the argument. For God's sake, Jimmy Callaway was a god damned equipment manager, not a coach. As for the rest:
Chuck Amato - former LBs coach. FSU LBs still rock, and Larry has said that he likes Steele anyway.
Ronnie Cotrell - recruiting coordinator now at Alabama and implicated in unethical practices
John Eason - coached WRs for 3 seasons in the mid '90s
John Gladden - DEs coach, and again, FSU's DEs still kick ass
Jimmy Heggins - I already mentioned that he didn't stop being OL coach until 2005, so he was around for the suckage
Mark Richt - OC and QBs guru
Brad Scott - OC before Richt
Dave Van Halanger - Strength & Conditioning coach who left with Richt
You're welcome to have him back. I'm sure most State fans will say the same about Amato.
can't. chemistry is gone. you can't go home.
like i said -- purge and rebuild.
Now Larry is apparently forced to outright lying because he knows he's lost the argument. For God's sake, Jimmy Callaway was a god damned equipment manager, not a coach. As for the rest:
Chuck Amato - former LBs coach. FSU LBs still rock, and Larry has said that he likes Steele anyway.
Ronnie Cotrell - recruiting coordinator now at Alabama and implicated in unethical practices
John Eason - coached WRs for 3 seasons in the mid '90s
John Gladden - DEs coach, and again, FSU's DEs still kick ass
Jimmy Heggins - I already mentioned that he didn't stop being OL coach until 2005, so he was around for the suckage
Mark Richt - OC and QBs guru
Brad Scott - OC before Richt
Dave Van Halanger - Strength & Conditioning coach who left with Richt
i didn't say jimmy was a coach. i said he was a big name. and if you KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT FLORIDA STATE FOOTBALL YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND HIS IMPACT OF NOT BEING THERE. he was the glue in the athletic department. players confided in him and he would talk to the coaches.
and to reduce john eason's impact to "coached WRs for 3 seasons in the mid '90s" is laughable. eason was a key arcitect in designing the 'fast break' offense that charlie ward excelled at (and won a national championship an a heisman trophy with). he lived in tallahassee since the 60s, was on the staff since '81 and was THE bridge between the black players and the coaching staff.
coach van was maybe the single-most important factor in fsu's dominance. the conditioning program he designed turned those talented high-school kids into nfl-ready men. there's a reason he's a hall-of-famer. i took his class while at fsu. he was great.
again, i'm not sure what you're saying, collin. what point are you trying to make? you said that the staff was basically the same, i'm showing you what's missing.
i didn't say jimmy was a coach.
vpkozel: "Aren't they pretty much the same coaches that were there when FSU was really good?"
LarryD: "not at all. some of the big names that left while fsu was "really good" and before fsu started losing (2000 orange bowl): chuck amato, jimmy callaway, ..."
You tell me how that reads, chief.
again, i'm not sure what you're saying, collin. what point are you trying to make?
That you're making up bullshit off the top of your head to desperately try to keep alive a fight you already lost. Bringing up defensive coaches is pointless because A) the argument is about the offensive decline, and B) you've already said that you like the replacements. Bringing up equipment managers is similarly pointless and deceptive. So the point is:
* the only real coaching change between domination and suckage is Richt, and he only directly coached QBs.
Thus, you can't claim that non-QB offensive players weren't being coached as well as they were during domination. So if it's not coaching, then it's the players themselves.
i'm not making up bullshit off the top of my head and i'm sorry that you can't see that i know what i'm talking about.
this is my life down here. i know this program.
you don't.
Good argument. Let me know when that line actually convinces someone. For my own part, I'll stick with facts for the time being. Thanks, though.
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