If Light Rail Comes to East CLT, Bye Bye Indepedence HOV Lanes!!!!!!!

[sds70]

In today's fishwrap, there was an article on the front page of the LOCAL section noting how the future bus lane going down Independence Blvd. may be torn down to make way for light rail . . . . What the :mad: :mad: :mad: ? ? I can remember 10+ years ago when plans were made to build that lane as the state's first HOV lane; there was a long delay in redoing the Eastway Road bridge over Independece; eventually it became a Bus only HOV lane which only gets used a handful of times each day. If CATS** changes its mind to build light rail vs. busway down Independance, that means that concrete barrier which was built will have to come down; traffic will be shifted toward the middle and the work would start on constructing light-rail tracks on the outside lanes of Independance, which would of course cause major traffic jams for years to come.


Why can't these guys make up there mind on what they are going to do :rolleyes: ? The experts have already said busways will work better on that side of town . . . Folks are going to bitch about the money that was spent on the HOV lane that was never used for its intended purposes (passaenger cars) but they will have themselves to blame if the city eventually has to tear down the HOV/Bus lane concrete barrier on Independance to put in light-rail lanes. Has anybody asked why there can't be both (HOV Lane for cars in the middle & light rail on the outside lanes) :confused: ? ?


Independenc HOV Lanes Might Come Down in favor of Light Rail Lines (O-R City Leaders With No Clue On How to Build our future Mass Transit System Keep Blowing More of our Money :rolleyes: :rolleyes: . . . Take Your Pick :mad: :mad: !!!!!!) (http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/4793452.htm)


**CATS-Charlotte Area Transit System

[lj4three]

mcrory was right in his "concession" speech to the politically swayed city council and MTC- the facts dont change. LRT on 74 is a no-no unless we're willing to undergo massive construction, shifting and raise the predominant amount of funding on our own. The 74 corridor is not suited towards LRT- BRT (bus-rapid-transit) is written all over it. We will get federal funds, and will be able to build high-density resedential units near the bus-stations. remember, this wont be your regular old buses that CATS currently uses. these will feel like trains and have a much more personable feel to them.
Bus Rapid Transit Central (http://www.homestead.com/brtc/files/) :

[WilliamJ]

This will ultimately fail....We are too entrenched in our cowboy mentality of everyone having his own horse. The only cities in which any form of rapid transit is effective are the megaopolis' (sp) I just don't see Chalotte ever having this, we are too subdivided and were not built as high density residential.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
This will ultimately fail....We are too entrenched in our cowboy mentality of everyone having his own horse. The only cities in which any form of rapid transit is effective are the megaopolis' (sp) I just don't see Chalotte ever having this, we are too subdivided and were not built as high density residential.

i dont think the southern line will fail- there are enough plots of vacant land along the 521 corridor that will allow for developers to build high resedential and commercial units. as a matter of fact, there are already many projects announced scooting down south blvd that are high-resedential density in nature (3030 south, scaleybark, and much more in south end). the east corridor is not suited for LRT- but will do well with BRT. BRT will allow servicing to low-density resedential developments that are densley inhabited. the BRT will allow for the buses to maneuver in the neighborhoods along the corridor and at bus stations and then drive down 74 towards DT uninterupted. the north Commuter rail will be a solid option to davidson- who the fuck wants to drive 77 north in the evening?? the only line i'm not convinced about is the NE LRT line. the segment is not dense enough and the area is too sprawled in nature.

william- i agree our density doesnt warrant a mass transit system. but this is about options and planning for the future- this gives people options to not own a car and maneuver in the city without having a license or paying for gas.

[magnus]

those stupid HOV lanes are useless. Light rail probably would be as well, through that corridor, but whatever.

[WilliamJ]

The only light rail that makes sense is Davidson Pineville line. The planners pissed away too many oportunities to remedy the traffic stuation....This is too little too late, but hell, I could be wrong.

[lj4three]

hey mvm:

"In 1989, the federal government agreed to spend $13.2 million on the car-pool lane, with the state and city each putting in $2.2 million. But widening Independence has been so costly that only a portion of the car-pool lane has been built. That section was too short to operate safely for car pools, so the state allowed CATS to use it for buses until it could be extended"

what a waste of $$$...


william- i do think the busways will prove to be a viable option to the east and westsides. bus ridership on the east is already high, and aesthetically and performance enhanced buses will create a larger pool of riders.

[Savio]

subway would be nice:D

[BearBryant]

i'll ride the rail to work. Dont have to pay for parking, gas, vehicle use. I pay about $100 month in gas and parking alone.

[sds70]

Originally posted by Savio
subway would be nice:D


Hmmmm, gut out the old Convention Center and put the central station there (ala MARTA's 5 Points . . DC's Metro Center) ., .. Of course, this would probably triple the cost of the system and leave a massive traffic mess for years with the digging that would be involved :( . . .

[lj4three]

Originally posted by sds70



Hmmmm, gut out the old Convention Center and put the central station there (ala MARTA's 5 Points . . DC's Metro Center) ., .. Of course, this would probably triple the cost of the system and leave a massive traffic mess for years with the digging that would be involved :( . . .

we have enough places to piss downtown- no subway needed.

[sds70]

Bump :) . .


Why couldn't the city wise up and let someone redevelop the old Convention Center site into a small mixed used development . . Perhaps have shops, hotels, residental and have tie it into the Transportation Center located right behind it . . Perhaps BoA/Duke/Wachovia will do this now that they own that piece of property . . .


http://montrealforum.com/english/ani.gif


Or better yet, why can't they just do what a developer did with the old Montreal Forum (old home of the NHL Canadians). They gutted her out and put in an entertainment center; restaurants, shops, and AMC Theatres are in there . . . It would give out of town conventioners another place to go while they were in town . .


Pepsi Forum Entertainment Center (http://www.montrealforum.com)

[Ignatowski]

CLT stand for..........what?

[Puttingood]

Charlotte

[lj4three]

here is a diagram of LRT stops on the southern line (scheduled to fully open in 2006- construction starts this year):South Corridor Rail Line (http://www.3030south.com/rail.html)

[sds70]

Originally posted by lj4three
here is a diagram of LRT stops on the southern line (scheduled to fully open in 2006- construction starts this year):South Corridor Rail Line (http://www.3030south.com/rail.html)



http://www.3030south.com/images/rail_line1_04.gif




FYI-The South Light Rail line will stop at I-485 in Pineville and not downtown Pineville . . . THe mayor was afraid all of the incoming development around the transit stop would destroy the character of the town** . .

**which of course was destroyed 10+ years ago when they allowed all of those shopping centers to be built around I-485, but I guess da mayor doesn't realize that :rolleyes: :rolleyes: . . .

[lj4three]

I did some research about DMU's (Diesel Multiple Units i think) trains and they are much more environmentally friendly for heavy (commuter) rail to mooresville and possibly rockhill. they are also much more asthetically pleasing than the current heavy rail.


For our BRT- we will be using CIVIS buses, which are being used in France and maybe used in other US cities.

article:

The rubber-tired CIVIS trolleybus or hybrid bus, with its optical guidance option, can operate on three-minute headways on a dedicated guideway and can handle about 3,000 passengers an hour in each direction. An articulated version was seen at the International Public Transit EXPO last October.

Components of the optical guidance system include a camera mounted in front of the steering wheel, which can read coded markings painted on the road indicating the path to be followed, and an image processor that detects and corrects deviations by activating a motor on the steering column.

The system keeps the vehicle on the required route with a tolerance of a few centimeters, and fits it accurately into bus bays at bus stops for effortless level access to the bus interior. No heavy and expensive infrastructure is required to install the busway since the optical guidance bars are merely painted on the road surface and can be relocated at minimal expense.

All wheels on the vehicles are fitted with electric hub motors, reduction gears, and multi-disc brakes. In the flexible system, power is supplied, depending on local specs and conditions, either from an overhead trolley catenary at 750 V DC, a diesel electric unit, and/or a hybrid transmission system fed by a battery pack. The driver can manually override the optical guidance system at any time, drive off, and re-enter the guideway by switching to the battery or an auxiliary diesel unit.

CIVIS BUS (for BRT):

[Puttingood]

Who designated Scaleybark and South Blvd. a cool place to live ?

[lj4three]

Here is the webpage with all sorts of data associated with the MTC plan. scroll down and they have links to specific plans for each stop in the transit plan. Charlotte Area Transit Mass Transit Plan (http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/cats/transit+planning/home.asp)

whats so cool about scaleybark??

this is what it will look like when the LRT stop opens:

[WilliamJ]

fuck this...it is just more tax dollars at work. if it was a viable option the private sector would already have put in the system and be profeting from it. the market in this town won't pay for this. i know i don't want my taxes going to it.

[Puttingood]

whats so cool about scaleybark??

Thats a hell of a dream.;)

[lj4three]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
fuck this...it is just more tax dollars at work. if it was a viable option the private sector would already have put in the system and be profeting from it. the market in this town won't pay for this. i know i don't want my taxes going to it.

the taxes used for this project were passed in 1998- a 1/2 cent sales tax. you dont understand william- the private sector CANNOT legally control the railroads and transit ways in this city- if that were so, dont you think that NYC, a city that desperately needs mass transit, would be privatized up the ass?? well they're not. this is the governments role to further solidfy the health of the city- high resedential growth patterns need to be utilized (we aint getting any bigger landwise), and our freeways are opressed with bumper to bumper traffic. this will provide an efficient, environmentally safe option for the mass population to utilize.

now, to say that the private sector has not jumped at this with joy is just uninformed. land values in the first corridor to be completed (the south corridor, stretching from south end to pineville), have skyrocketed, as have many high resedential complexes (ie the park avenue condos, 3030 south, the arlington condos, etc...). the private sector is pumping money into the resedential and high density commerical market, because their will be great demand by citizens to live adjacent to those stations. property values have increased 10fold in many places due to the announcement of transit stops.

[Puttingood]

(ie the park avenue condos, 3030 south, the arlington condos, etc...).

Don't know about that other stuff but haveing lived in this area you speak of for 25 years then I would say that those propertys were sky rocketing way before any of this transit thing. i don't think any body in my area is gonna be or will ever use mass transit or depend on income from trolly car customers. ;)

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by lj4three


the taxes used for this project were passed in 1998- a 1/2 cent sales tax. you dont understand william- the private sector CANNOT legally control the railroads and transit ways in this city- if that were so, dont you think that NYC, a city that desperately needs mass transit, would be privatized up the ass?? well they're not. this is the governments role to further solidfy the health of the city- high resedential growth patterns need to be utilized (we aint getting any bigger landwise), and our freeways are opressed with bumper to bumper traffic. this will provide an efficient, environmentally safe option for the mass population to utilize.

now, to say that the private sector has not jumped at this with joy is just uninformed. land values in the first corridor to be completed (the south corridor, stretching from south end to pineville), have skyrocketed, as have many high resedential complexes (ie the park avenue condos, 3030 south, the arlington condos, etc...). the private sector is pumping money into the resedential and high density commerical market, because their will be great demand by citizens to live adjacent to those stations. property values have increased 10fold in many places due to the announcement of transit stops. have you ever been to NYC?, the primary mode of transport there is mass transit. the city was designed around it.

i really doubt the high rises that are going in around the south end are doing so because of the future mass transit proposal. it is the latest trendy place to live. the new high rise on east blvd is nowhere near the corridor.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by Puttingood
(ie the park avenue condos, 3030 south, the arlington condos, etc...).

Don't know about that other stuff but haveing lived in this area you speak of for 25 years then I would say that those propertys were sky rocketing way before any of this transit thing. i don't think any body in my area is gonna be or will ever use mass transit or depend on income from trolly car customers. ;)

about 10 years ago, when rumors of the trolley being brought back and possilbe light rail, the area started to see reinvestment, according to the business journal. i take your word for it though putt, you've lived there longer than i've lived my whole life.

i really doubt the high rises that are going in around the south end are doing so because of the future mass transit proposal. it is the latest trendy place to live. the new high rise on east blvd is nowhere near the corridor.

on camden, a new project that is pimping the "train stop" perk. yes, it is a trendy place- but the transit is one of the attributes that makes it trendy, will.

[WilliamJ]

the problem with mass transit in the southeast is it is concidered ghetto. it's a bunch of crap the gubment is trying to cram down our throats under the guise of it deing in our best intrest. fuck the gubment and it's underhanded social schemes.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
the problem with mass transit in the southeast is it is concidered ghetto. it's a bunch of crap the gubment is trying to cram down our throats under the guise of it deing in our best intrest. fuck the gubment and it's underhanded social schemes.

this aint ghetto (DMU trains that will provide commuter service):

[WilliamJ]

it will be ghetto in two years. sure it's a shiny new train but this ain't europe or fucking asia. rail fails miserably in this country. if it were a viable solution the private sector would be profiting from it right now....all of the shipping rail in this country is owned by private companies that profit.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
it will be ghetto in two years. sure it's a shiny new train but this ain't europe or fucking asia. rail fails miserably in this country.

the MARTA in atlanta has been successful, as has the METRO in DC- both sprawly areas.

cities like SF (BART), NY, Chicago, Boston, Seattle, San Diego, Cincinatti, and Dallas all have successful mass transit also.

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by lj4three


the MARTA in atlanta has been successful, as has the METRO in DC- both sprawly areas.

cities like SF (BART), NY, Chicago, Boston, Seattle, San Diego, Cincinatti, and Dallas all have successful mass transit also. yes and it is primarily used by the lower class that cannot afford a car or parking. save NYC, in NYC it is used by all that don't wanna get a cab. I rode MARTA this summer, it was Ghetto....I've ridden the METRO, ghetto. Albeit the Metro is successful, I will concede that. But my original thought holds true, if it were viable, a corporation would be building one.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
yes and it is primarily used by the lower class that cannot afford a car or parking. save NYC, in NYC it is used by all that don't wanna get a cab. I rode MARTA this summer, it was Ghetto....I've ridden the METRO, ghetto. Albeit the Metro is successful, I will concede that. But my original thought holds true, if it were viable, a corporation would be building one.

i've ridden the METRO and MARTA. yes, the MARTA did have some ghetto, but i saw lots of tourists and residents going downtown on it. anyway- we'll just disagree. all i know is i'm gonna be using it as much as possible.

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by lj4three


all i know is i'm gonna be using it as much as possible. if it becomes a viable safe transport option, i'll probly use it, but i doubt it. i like my horse :)

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
yes and it is primarily used by the lower class that cannot afford a car or parking. save NYC, in NYC it is used by all that don't wanna get a cab. I rode MARTA this summer, it was Ghetto....I've ridden the METRO, ghetto. Albeit the Metro is successful, I will concede that. But my original thought holds true, if it were viable, a corporation would be building one.

ALL classes use the METRO here in D.C. The reason they use it because they will be stuck in their cars all day trying to drive. 2 things d.c and Atlanta have in common are the surrounding counties have bigger populations than the acutal city (unlike Charlotte)...thus the rail system is critical here.

[kshead]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
yes and it is primarily used by the lower class that cannot afford a car or parking. save NYC, in NYC it is used by all that don't wanna get a cab. I rode MARTA this summer, it was Ghetto....I've ridden the METRO, ghetto. Albeit the Metro is successful, I will concede that. But my original thought holds true, if it were viable, a corporation would be building one.

Thanks for that wonderful, uneducated, flat-out-wrong assessment of METRO as "ghetto". :rolleyes: No wonder people are still turning the roads into parking lots out there. I take METRO simply because it's faster and easier than driving into DC. Someday, the same might be true of Charlotte.

Also, corporations will never provide public transportation systems because - as you said - they aren't viable. Anywhere in the world. Ever. They require government cash. But that doesn't mean they are totally unnecessary either.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by


Thanks for that wonderful, uneducated, flat-out-wrong assessment of METRO as "ghetto". :rolleyes: No wonder people are still turning the roads into parking lots out there. I take METRO simply because it's faster and easier than driving into DC. Someday, the same might be true of Charlotte.

Also, corporations will never provide public transportation systems because - as you said - they aren't viable. Anywhere in the world. Ever. They require government cash. But that doesn't mean they are totally unnecessary either.

kshead- got a quick question about the metro- whats the status of the train to IAD- still under construction, when is it set to open??

[kshead]

Originally posted by lj4three


kshead- got a quick question about the metro- whats the status of the train to IAD- still under construction, when is it set to open??

IAD? Not sure what you are referring to LJ.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by kshead


IAD? Not sure what you are referring to LJ.

Dulles. i'm a dick when it comes to abbreviations. :)

[kshead]

Sorry, I wasn't even thinking about airline abbreviations. It's dead if VA has to pay for it. I can't remember exactly which entity (specific or collective) is responsible for METRO funding though. They can't even pay for the basics right now. The elimination (phasing out actually) of the car tax - a real pain in the ass, but a major cash cow - has put the state in a real bind.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by kshead
Sorry, I wasn't even thinking about airline abbreviations. It's dead if VA has to pay for it. I can't remember exactly which entity (specific or collective) is responsible for METRO funding though. They can't even pay for the basics right now. The elimination (phasing out actually) of the car tax - a real pain in the ass, but a major cash cow - has put the state in a real bind.

thanks man.

[kshead]

Originally posted by lj4three


thanks man.

Anytime. If you want to take METRO after flying in, fly into National. :)

[lj4three]

Originally posted by kshead


Anytime. If you want to take METRO after flying in, fly into National. :)

is there a ledo pizza near national?? :drool:

[lj4three]

here's an update- CATS is looking at LRT trains to purchase:

CATS seek light rail cars (http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/4949368.htm):

Siemens:
http://www.siemens.com/Daten/siecom/HQ/TS/Internet/Transportation_Systems/WORKAREA/reinhold/templatedata/English/file/binary/20656_auf_melbourne_2_20656.gif

http://www.siemens.com/Daten/siecom/HQ/TS/Internet/Transportation_Systems/WORKAREA/reinhold/templatedata/English/file/binary/san_diego_s70_designstudie.jpg

Bombardier:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/1_1/img/im_1_1_2_1_0_a.jpg

http://bombardier.com/en/1_0/1_1/img/im_1_1_2_11_a.jpg

streetcar-
http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/skoda/pic4.jpg

LRT again:

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/bombardier/bombardier1.jpg

CIVIS bus for BRT:

http://www.busride.com/img/Issues/082002/LFEAugust1.jpg

inside:

http://www.tbus.org.uk/cristalis12.jpg

[sds70]

I like the Red Bombadirer car the best :thumbup: . . . I wonder if CATS could change its color scheme to red :D :D ? ?

[lj4three]

Originally posted by sds70
I like the Red Bombadirer car the best :thumbup: . . . I wonder if CATS could change its color scheme to red :D :D ? ?

i should've known you'd choose the red-one. :)

anyway- sds, do you know when the FTA is gonna approve funding for the south line?:confused:

[sds70]

Originally posted by lj4three


i should've known you'd choose the red-one. :)

anyway- sds, do you know when the FTA is gonna approve funding for the south line?:confused:


Suppose to be in the next few months . . . . FUnny thing is, they've already approved Raleigh-Durham's application for federal funding for their commuter rail line if I heard correctly (I'll take that back . . . I think there plans meet the feds approval for getting money, but they still have to compete for federal money with other proposed transit system like ours )