Opinion of the parents in our midst?

[Dave Newman]

I have accepted - and grown quite comfortable with - the fact that I would not make a good parent. Hence, I got myself neutered about four years ago.

I just got back from spending a week with my younger brother, his wife and their four-year-old son. (see picture below)

The experience afforded me the opportunity to view how the family interacts in everyday situations.

We're all very close; hopefully, we'll be able to endure the letter I just sent to my bro (http://www.staff-stat.com/RaisingAlex).

Do you feel I'm totally out of line? If you received that page - would you tell me where to go?

...And, how did you get your children to listen and respect you?

[LarryD]

dave, retract that letter as soon as possible.

[VOR]

Dave you done went and screwed up big time.

You were too chicken shit to have kids now you're trying to tell folks who took the plunge how to handle something you know nothing about.

If they are happy with their results who the fuck are you.

[cltbuilder]

dude, I feel the same way about my sister's kid, but I'd be damned if I'd tell her how to raise a kid considering I'll never have one of my own and am not sure where to begin if I did.

[mathmajors]

Originally posted by VOR
Dave you done went and screwed up big time.

You were too chicken shit to have kids now you're trying to tell folks who took the plunge how to handle something you know nothing about.

If they are happy with their results who the fuck are you.

I'll second most of that, especially when you don't have kids of your own.

That being said, a lot of what you (Dave) are saying is what my wife and I anticipated and agreed to work on with our son before he started developing a personality. We try to be consistent and diligent regarding his behavior, manners, etc. There's a difference between hoping your child behaves correctly and expecting your child to behave correctly.

And if anyone thinks that we are too hard on our son because we are constantly on him to do this or do that, too bad. At least he knows how to act in public and everywhere else.

[HPCatFan]

Take it back immediately. You should grit your teeth and keep it to yourself. I've got two kids (6 and 3 yrs). I agree with alot of what you say, and we're definitely NOT PC/self-esteem type parents, but I wouldn't tell my friends how to raise their kids (and they do a lot of the same things you list in your letter).
P.S. cute kid

[jeanmarie]

Dave,
Although I agree with most of your letter, if you really want to remain close with your brother, you better not send that letter. One time my brother told me my kid was a brat and the only time I've spoken to him since was at our parents funerals.

Besides, my kid turn out just fine without his help! People don't take too kindly to people w/out kids telling them how to raise them.

[Piper]

I’ve got 10 to 1 odds that Dave’s brother, in fact, will tell him to go fuck himself. Really, the only question is with what object.

Dude, he's 4. You described just about every four year old I’ve ever come across. They throw tantrums. They get scared of shadows. They don't always walk particuarly fast at that age. They are easily distracted.

[meatpile]

That's the most arrogant, self centered, disrespectful letter I've seen in a long time.

Congratulations! You're an asshole!

[magnus]

yeah, just the territory you're in at that age sometimes. I had a girlfriend in early HS who had a younger brother that was about 7-8 who acted a lot like this. What can you do?
actually I just tossed him around a lot. he liked it.
Little jerky kid though, so I just hope he turns out OK.

>>If they are happy with their results who the fuck are you.

no doubt. And if they're not happy, how is it that you telling them what for will help?

[kshead]

Make it 20-1 Piper. :D

Send it. Apparently none of the other parents out there are (gasp) willing to criticize another parent - lest they be judged themselves - so I guess it's up to you.

[jeanmarie]

Mr. kshead,

It's one thing to criticize or offer suggestions. I'm sure they would be taken quite well. But that letter is quite disrepectful, as someone else suggested, and it completely insults everything his brother and wife have been doing.

[The Brain]

Geez man... you just stepped in the BIGGEST pile of shit possible... there is NO question you might would raise a child different... but that was YOUR choice not to have your own... every set of parents are different and every child is raised their own way... and for you to tell your brother and sister in law that they are inessence "bad parents" up to this point then you're the most blind, jaded person I've ever met... a few things of note... Piper's was the most important... the boy is 4 he ACTS like a 4 year old... and 2 mind your own damn business... not EVERY family matter HAS to involve you... even more so when you don't have a damn clue about what you're talking about

[magnus]

that's true. If you could find a way to not be a dick about it, I think it's possible you could actually do positive harm not negative...but even in that case I think you're screwed.
Are you going to send him this letter in 4 point type Arial?

[The Brain]

Originally posted by jeanmarie
Mr. kshead

Who the hell's she talking about??? LOL "Mr. kshead" <---- that's funny ass shit there...:D :D :D :D

[magnus]

yeah, I enjoyed that one too. Mr. kshead. She'll get it soon enough, though, patience.

So wasn't parents in the midst that movie about Sigourney Weaver watching parents in their natural habitat?

[kshead]

I don't deny that the letter is a bit self-righteous....BUT it sounds to me like Dave knows his brother quite well and has some concern about the whole family. The criticism(s) are not of the kid, but of the parents. The kid is 4 - he's gonna act like it's 4. The parents do not have to turn a blind eye and/or encourage it.

In addition, Dave certainly seems to know that he can offer some trivial criticism of his brother and his sis-in-law (i.e. calling their child a brat) without worrying that they won't speak to him for long periods afterwards. If they weren't close, I'm guessing that he wouldn't even consider it.


Based on the description of behavior given by Dave (granted it's only his side of the story), who's to say his brother and wife DON'T need to be insulted for their skills? Dave seems a lot more qualified to do that than I do. It's his family. I just told him to go ahead and do it...seems to me like they'd rather hear it from a family member than someone else.

[celyn]

i'm thinking that this is only the drop in the bucket for Mr Newman, we've seen only this letter but i'm thinking his family has seen alot more than this and is ready for this one to roll of there shoulders just like the previous ones....................

[jeanmarie]

I wasn't tryng to be funny by calling him Mr. kshead. I was being polite since I'm new here.

[mathmajors]

Originally posted by kshead
I don't deny that the letter is a bit self-righteous....BUT it sounds to me like Dave knows his brother quite well and has some concern about the whole family. The criticism(s) are not of the kid, but of the parents. The kid is 4 - he's gonna act like it's 4. The parents do not have to turn a blind eye and/or encourage it.

In addition, Dave certainly seems to know that he can offer some trivial criticism of his brother and his sis-in-law (i.e. calling their child a brat) without worrying that they won't speak to him for long periods afterwards. If they weren't close, I'm guessing that he wouldn't even consider it.


Based on the description of behavior given by Dave (granted it's only his side of the story), who's to say his brother and wife DON'T need to be insulted for their skills? Dave seems a lot more qualified to do that than I do. It's his family. I just told him to go ahead and do it...seems to me like they'd rather hear it from a family member than someone else.


I will say something to another parent if their kid is doing something to mine or standing on our couch or something.

[flyfisher]

Go ahead and send the letter. Now you won't have to worry about the kid since you'll never see him again. Fuckin' idiot. Mind your own business. That's what your family will think too.

[Puttingood]

Dave----Are you on medication ?

[BigMark]

Originally posted by flyfisher
Go ahead and send the letter. Now you won't have to worry about the kid since you'll never see him again. Fuckin' idiot. Mind your own business. That's what your family will think too.

Wow, it usually takes a new member at least 5 posts to call one of us a fucking idiot.

[The Brain]

Originally posted by jeanmarie
I wasn't tryng to be funny by calling him Mr. kshead. I was being polite since I'm new here.
awww don't worry about that... NO ONE is polite here... LOL... just have fun and welcome to the circus

[LarryD]

maybe dave's family is used to getting letters like this from him.

i like your idea about being honest dave, i really do. however, this situation doesn't fall into that category. this is a situation that you don't understand because you aren't a parent -- never have been and never will be. since you, admittedly, don't understand why the child acts like he does, you should have asked more questions with your initial letter instead of assuming that it was the parents' fault.

please keep us posted as to what you hear from them and if they know to expect these kinds of letters from you.

[The Brain]

Its good to see Dave bringing the new members out... LOL!!! Though I still stand as saying he's being an ass for sending that letter... if he felt there needed to be changes the BEST way he coulda done it was to drop an occassional subtle suggestion... nothing major or pushy... just point out some of the child's behavior to the parents... make them feel slightly embarassed by his behavior and they will fix the prob themselves

[wossa]

He will not say "please" or "thank you" until coerced.
He plays you and Kathy against each other.
Although he's got no qualms about interrupting others (which is actually encouraged, by the reception with which he is usually rewarded), he will acknowledge and respond to things said to him solely at his discretion.
While you exhort him to cover his mouth every single time he coughs, I've yet to see him do it once.
He is afraid of his own shadow.
Mealtime is unnecessarily challenging, as he realizes that he will ultimately get his way whenever he engages you in a power struggle.
On a whim, he may elect to throw a personal article on the ground at any time. (...And one of you will pick it up for him.)
He will walk away from or lag behind you in public, in spite of constant warnings not to do so.


Dave - you dumass fucking idiot - the above is what the majority of four year olds do. Lack of age and experince contributes to their immmaturity.

What's your excuse?

Go fuck yourself - thats what I say.

If I was your brother i would kick your ass - then tell you the same.

prick.

[slydevl]

Wossa why dont you tell him how you really feel?

[jeanmarie]

Well, thank you very much, Mr. Brain!

[flyfisher]

Writing a letter instead talking about it is the wrong approach to a very sensitive issue. If my brother tried that shit on me he'd not only be put on the ignore list, he wouldn't hear the end of it.

Sending the letter would be like sending hate mail. Imagine how the mother is going to react to it.

I may have been harsh previously, but it's the truth. I see disaster all over it.

[SilverSurfer]

I have no kids, but I'll be damned if I would send that letter to my sister or brother. What's the point? Do you see them all the time?

I see my nieces/nephews about once a year. There's a few things they do that irritate me, but I see no reason to say anything about it. They're just kids, and I'm not their parent. If they were kicking my dog or stealing from me that would be different.

I get the feeling Dave has already sent this letter, what do you think?

[celyn]

oh hell yea.................................

[WYDD]

its the whole letter thing. Sending a letter??? Call him dave. A nice back and forth conversation doesn't make you look like a complete pussy. Really, it's none of your business unless the kid somehow embarrassed you. And, i would imagine your brothers wife would have major problems talking to you unless your whole family interacts over email. If i got a letter like that from my brother, i'd tell him naturally to go fauk himself. Probably tell him to never come around my family again because it was an EMAIL. The phone is a nice little invention if he lives too far away to see in person.

[flyfisher]

yeah, he sent it and now he's running like hell to their house so he can smash their monitor and they can't read it.

[magnus]

yeah, where IS Dave after all this? He oughta know better than to just drop something like this and not discuss.

[bunkyboy]

Now the brother may take it and deal with it but the sister in law is GUARANTEED never to speak to you again. And by that, you will see less of your brother and nephew. Hell hath no fury like a mother.
I got 3 kids, all under 8. They do need to be reminded about there please and thankyous. They do play off of each other and me and my wife. They drag along in public. They at some point or another do some or all of the things that you bring up. Does that make them or the parents bad. Absolutely not.

As it's been stated over and over here, do not offer opinion on childrearing unless you are a parent. You'll have alot of repairing to do if that letter is sent.

[Imonlyhuman]

Dave, If you sent me a letter like that, I would tell you to go to hell in a heartbeat. Four year olds are not perfect. If any child was perfect it would take away the fun of being a parent. I have a sister who let her kids walk all over the top of her (and everyone else for that matter). There have been times I did not want to go to her house, but hey, shes my sister. If her kids did do something to my kids that I didnt think was right, I would say something to her about it and gave her a chance to correct it. I would then talk to my kids about the situation. If it got to the point of getting out of hand and she just sat there and did nothing, I would politly leave. But there is no way I would write a letter like that to her. Now the sad thing about her is, she had her kids taken away from her and they are in their teens. A lot of people saw it coming and did tell her (in a polite way) to change her ways and correct the kids or you are going to lose them. She now asks me how did I do it with my kids. How come my kids dont give me the problems her kids give her? The only thing I can tell her is I wasnt afraid to correct my kids when they did something wrong and I didnt live in fear of having someone call social services on me if I did. You can only hand someone keys to open doors, you cant make them use them though. Talking to a person face to face is the best way. Not writing a letter to them. Im sure your sister will do whats best for the kids and the kids will grow up to be well adjusted people. If not, (thats if you talk to them face to face in a non threatening way) at least you know you tried to help. Kids, They say and do the darnest things.

[Sportsgirl]

I wouldn't bother sending the letter either. Let's face it, relatives, especially in-laws, can be especially fussy about their kids.

My sis-in-law is a prime example. She had a conniption because my sister washed and fixed my 7-yo niece's hair without specific permission, even though my niece's hair was dirty and needed washing before she went to some birthday party. My niece wasn't traumatized one bit; in fact, she even brought my sister the shampoo bottle and sat peacefully under the hair dryer afterwards. You should've heard my sis-in-law on the phone. She called me all the way from Atlanta to give me an earful, even though I was not there when the so-called incident occurred. But she also let me know that she was angry with me because I put lotion on my nieces' legs, and she wasn't happy that I wanted to take the girls to Carowinds. It was "traumatic" to the older niece. I thought this was utter nonsense. I felt like cursing her out, but I held my peace and later sent her a nice, long consolation note explaining that I was just enjoying my role as an aunt to my nieces. That seemed to calm her down.

But, anyway, I've learned not to say ANYTHING to my brother or sis-in-law about their kids. They take it as an insult, so it's not worth it in the end. Now I will say that when the ball is in your court (you have your niece or nephew staying with you), you pretty much have the authority to enforce rules of the house. My hard-headed, teen-age nephew found that out the hard way when I told him he could obey or be escorted out of my house by the Sheriff's Department. He thought I was bluffing, until I reached for the phone.

[Puttingood]

Dave ain't got no letter and probably ain't got no kin either. He is just imagining that he would be able to send a letter like that. I seen a guy just like him on Oprah one day. Can't remember the official word they call his condition. But it has something to do with a chemical thing in the brain. Oprah said they were'nt much a person could do about it but it's better to humor them about there imaginary friends and stuff.

[BearBryant]

Some people have no business having kids but I will let them figure that out themselves. If they come to my house and disrespect me or tear up my things and their parents don't have enough sense to say something to their kids I will.

[BearBryant]

If a kid is old enough to talk, they are old enough to say "Yes maam, No Sir, Please and Thank you"

[LarryD]

Originally posted by BearBryant
If a kid is old enough to talk, they are old enough to say "Yes maam, No Sir, Please and Thank you"

no kids, huh?

[Kakia69]

Originally posted by Wossamotta U
Dave - you dumass fucking idiot - the above is what the majority of four year olds do. Lack of age and experince contributes to their immmaturity.
What's your excuse?
Go fuck yourself - thats what I say.
If I was your brother i would kick your ass - then tell you the same.
prick.

I COMPLETELY agree with Wossa. I started reading that letter and couldn't even finish it. You are a fucking idiot!!! I am so thankful that you had yourself fixed. Any child of yours would grow up in a military institution and never know what it is like to really be a child, alone even know what "fun" is all about. You are not a parent...you will NEVER be a parent. With those two factors, any opinion/idea you have about raising a child are totally meaningless. I'm not a parent either, but I am an Aunt and a Godmother...and I'm damn good with my roles in the lives of my nieces. My nieces have played my sister and I against each other, but it didn't go unnoticed. We actually get a laugh out of it and share it with the rest of the family. It's all about growing up, Dave. It's about exploring the world and understanding it. Children can't depend on their parents forever and what a wonderful way and SAFE place to experiment with "what can I get away with next?" mentality than at home? I did it when I was 4 and so did my sisters. And you know what? My parents are so proud of how their children turned out. I challenge you to save that letter...and reread it when Alex is out of college. Then you can kick yourself in the ass and realize that you truly didn't know what you were talking about.

[BearBryant]

none that I know of. If I did, I could guarantee you they would be polite and respectful.

[kshead]

Originally posted by Kakia69
I challenge you to save that letter...and reread it when Alex is out of college. Then you can kick yourself in the ass and realize that you truly didn't know what you were talking about.

I challenge you to save it too Dave.

You never know...standing at the podium at graduation 20 years from now, Alex may very well thank you for having the nuts to stand up to his parents back in '02 when they were letting him run around like a heathen. Maybe I'm just an optimist though....

[meatpile]

Movies about the lives of miserable people could have a storyline involving a letter like that.

Get over yourself, dave.

[LarryD]

i think dave's open enough to learn from our reaction to this (not change maybe, but learn). he admits that he's a work in progress and says what he feels.

[BigMark]

My money says when Alex graduates from college, he finds out about the letter and whoops Daves ass.

[slydevl]

I had an aunt and uncle who had three kids of their own tell my parents that I was a pest. I was about 5 at the time and it was only like the third time I had ever met them so of course I was extremely curious about them. Anyway, they only came around every couple of years and the next time I saw them I was 9. They couldn't stop raving about how well behaved I was. When they left my parents told me how proud they were of me and it was then that they told me that my aunt and uncle had thought I was a pest before. Never really cared for that aunt and uncle much after that. Funny thing is all three of their children grew up to be big time loser adults.

[Kakia69]

Originally posted by BearBryant
If a kid is old enough to talk, they are old enough to say "Yes maam, No Sir, Please and Thank you"

Well, I never said such things...

That whole "yes, maam", "no, maam" is so strange to me. I never heard of it until i moved to South Carolina. I'll never say maam or sir...and i get infuriated when people address me as such. I can be polite and respectful without having to address people as sir or maam. It's just the northern side of me.

And why should I have to say "thank you" for a helping of string beans when I didn't want them at all? ICK!!!!

[Captain Morgan]

Dave - I really don't want to see my in-laws again. Would you please write a letter for me?

[Puttingood]

My kin folk never thought I would amount to any thing either.:D

Granpa use to say "Dag, you ain't never gonna be no count if you don't quit standing on that bucket and looking in the Tadmores windows. Get yourself a step stool like I got ".

[wossa]

Originally posted by Kakia69


Well, I never said such things...

That whole "yes, maam", "no, maam" is so strange to me. I never heard of it until i moved to South Carolina. I'll never say maam or sir...and i get infuriated when people address me as such. I can be polite and respectful without having to address people as sir or maam. It's just the northern side of me.

And why should I have to say "thank you" for a helping of string beans when I didn't want them at all? ICK!!!!

kakia,
you are so cute when you are naughty.


and sly - you turned out to be a big loser adult too - proof that it doesn't matter how you are raised. :D

[LarryD]

Originally posted by Captain Morgan
Dave - I really don't want to seen my in-laws again. Would you please write a letter for me?


classic!

[Imonlyhuman]

lol Kakia, my children understood respect without having to say yes ma'am or no ma'am to me too. I lived with a friend that had her kids say that to them. I asked my child a question one day and he answered me "yes Momma" My friend looked at my son and told him to say "yes ma'am". I looked at my friend, then at my shoulders then back at my friend and told her that I didnt see any stripes on my shoulders and as long as my child looked at me when he said yes momma or mommy, I knew he heard me and answered me. I dont live in the milatary!!!! She told me that my child wasnt going to have any respect for anyone when he grew up. Well, I have the last laugh on that because her children that she made say yes ma'am,no ma'am have no respect for any athority what so ever. As for them green beans? I agree, why should I say thank you for something I didnt want or ask for? I come out with, I didnt want that, then I say PLEASE take it away! Or if im in my better moods I say take that shit away I didnt ask for it!!!!!!!

[slydevl]

Oh shit! Maybe Queen and Kakia aren't meant to be....

As a very wise man once said:
"We say grace and we say Maam........."

[kshead]

Originally posted by slydevl

As a very wise man once said:
"We say grace and we say Maam........."

....If you ain't into that we don't GIVE A DAMN. :D

[wossa]

well I expect my kids to say yes ma'am, yes sir .

Yes Dad will work.

Okay, okay. In a minute. I was getting ready too. Why?

doesn't cut it though.

[Imonlyhuman]

Here is something I do find a little disrepectfull. Its my opinion and my opinion only and I do not speak for anyone else. I was taught to address someone as Mr. or Mrs (last name). I was also taught to intruduce someone that way also. If I was intruducing myself to a group of people, I would intruduce myself as Mrs (lastname). What is this with the kids saying miss (firstname)? I know someone that drove a school bus and was a teacher assistant and this is how she had the children adress her. I know I live in a different part of the country here and we are talking about respect right?

[Kakia69]

Originally posted by Imonlyhuman
Here is something I do find a little disrepectfull. Its my opinion and my opinion only and I do not speak for anyone else. I was taught to address someone as Mr. or Mrs (last name). I was also taught to intruduce someone that way also. If I was intruducing myself to a group of people, I would intruduce myself as Mrs (lastname). What is this with the kids saying miss (firstname)? I know someone that drove a school bus and was a teacher assistant and this is how she had the children adress her. I know I live in a different part of the country here and we are talking about respect right?

When I was little, my parents taught me to say Mr. or Mrs. along with the persons last name. I don't know where the change came in as far as addressing those older than yourself. I prefer to be addressed as Miss Kathy...for me, to be addressed by my last name just makes me sound old. IMO, it's just a personal preference. If someone, like a boyfriend's parents, wish to be addressed by their first name...then I will RESPECT their wishes, in that way.

[Captain Morgan]

I thought you preferred Mistress Kathy.

I hope Alex is respectful to Dave and says, "Excuse me Uncle Dave. Would you please go fuck yourself."

[jeanmarie]

What is wrong with saying, "thank you"?

[Kakia69]

Originally posted by Captain Morgan
I thought you preferred Mistress Kathy.



Oh yeah!! I prefer that, too. It does sound better, doesn't it?

Let me go remind Hotshot McGee about that....

[Dave Newman]

Jeepers, boys and girls...

If I was looking to win friends and influence people, I'd be in a whole world o' hurt right about now, wouldn't I?

For those who may be interested, this is a little follow-up (http://www.staff-stat.com/RaisingAlex2) to the "Raising Alex" thing.

[magnus]

Congratulations. Even though you had to Steve Smith it, you still got to run out of bounds.

[Dave Newman]

[Captain Morgan]

Plus, both parents need to agree and stick to all aspects of rearing.

Fred couldn't have said it any better.

[celyn]

see, it didn't really phase him at all..........

[BigMark]

Just for hte record, had it been a Chevy, the Wega car would have been the coolest to ever run in NASCAR.

[wossa]

hello


Newman




I still think you are a nut job.

[Freakshow]

As a parent AND an Uncle...you fucked up BIG time.

My nephew is a total loss...his parents' fault.

He is 4 and they will do ANYTHING to keep him happy. They give him toys if he cries...everytime!

I've wanted to write a letter like yours, but now that I'm a father...man. Your bro will be pissed.

[Patti]

Originally posted by Freakshow
As a parent AND an Uncle...you fucked up BIG time.

My nephew is a total loss...his parents' fault.

He is 4 and they will do ANYTHING to keep him happy. They give him toys if he cries...everytime!

I've wanted to write a letter like yours, but now that I'm a father...man. Your bro will be pissed.

You are right Freak parents today do not want to be told their child is rude.

Sad thing is these parents aren't doing the child any favors, these children will have a hard time all of their life because they willl find out the world does not revolve around them.

[LarryD]

well, glad to see there's no damage to your relationship. i guessed that they know those type of letters don't just come out of the blue from you.

[Puttingood]

dave---do you ever mess with the old people that greet you at wal-mart ?

[VOR]

Oh all the time especially the ones at the gastoina walmart, lazy bastards lean up against the wall bullshitting with the cops and don't say hiya doin or pull out a buggy for you. If I'm carryin in a parcel I run through so they have to chase me down to put a sticky on it.

[Patti]

Originally posted by VOR
Oh all the time especially the ones at the gastoina walmart, lazy bastards lean up against the wall bullshitting with the cops and don't say hiya doin or pull out a buggy for you. If I'm carryin in a parcel I run through so they have to chase me down to put a sticky on it.

I'm with ya on that one VOR. They hire all those greeters that do nothing. Wonder how much it would come to if you added up the cost of paying greeters? I would rather pay a little bit less on what I buy than have someone say hi to me when I walk in.

[celyn]

Originally posted by VOR
Oh all the time especially the ones at the gastoina walmart, lazy bastards lean up against the wall bullshitting with the cops and don't say hiya doin or pull out a buggy for you. If I'm carryin in a parcel I run through so they have to chase me down to put a sticky on it.





too funny vor, too funny!!!!!!

I'm gonna have to start trying that little trick:) :)

[boo-urns]

i have to take the unpopular position of agreeing with dave. i have a neice and nefew whom several years ago were 5 and 6 respecively. mom and dad allowed them to do everything dave listed in his letter. guess what folks, as the kids get older it just gets worse. our solution was to not allow their kids in our house...we had the excuse when we caught the boy trying to place an 8 inch butcher knife under the couch. he had previously beat his sister's dog so we were worried that he had planned to use the knife on one of our dogs. Today, the boy is 17...a high school dropout on drugs with numerous run-ins with the law...the girl is 16...a straight D student, smokes, and steals from people who visit their house. Mom and Dad still let them do whatever they want...

[SilverSurfer]

I agree with the content of Dave's letter, I just wouldn't have actually sent it. I can think some bad things to say about my nieces, nephews, friends wives or girlfriends or brothers or sisters or parents or in-laws or whatever, but I don't feel the need to put it in writing and send it to anybody, especially if the result will PROBABLY be alienating them. I just don't see the point. I don't expect anybody to change their ways for me, if it's something that bothers me enough, I just will make an effort to avoid them as much as possible.

I'd hate to think what kind of letters I'd get if everybody I know wrote me to tell me what they think of me. :(

[sadic1]

Silver has it exactly right. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for someone such as Dave (who has decided that they themselves are so unqualified and unwilling to be a parent that they'd commit to it surgically) to think they know enough about how to or how not to parent that their unsolicited outright criticism would be considered or appreciated demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of parenting and people in general. I'm also very leary of comments like the ones made by boourns. While I certainly don't advocate giving kids everything they ask for, to say that there is a direct correlation between only that aspect of how his kin were parented and their clearly antisocial and possibly psychotic behavior is a vast oversimplification of what goes into the personality development of kids. You can't say categorically that a kid behaves badly because they were given everything they asked for, because there is undoubtedly another kid out there who has been given everything they've asked for that is wonderful. Therefore, you must conclude that there are numerous other factors that go to determining if a kid is going to end up a good kid or not. Believe it or not, some of the most critical ones have little or nothing to do with how they were parented. I always get into this argument regarding the pros and cons of corporal punishment. There's plenty of good kids who never got hit, and there's plenty of bad ones. There's plenty of good kids who got hit, and plenty of bad ones. Obviously, there's more to their behavior's development than that one element, and all of it is well beyond Dave Newman's understanding or experience.

[kshead]

I'll share why I was out there too.

The bottom line? Unless Alex's parents, or Dave, or someone in the family says something to the parents about that kid, the odds are that someday we will all be bitching about his behavior. Don't think so? How many threads have been started on this board where we all line up and bitch about snotty little kids and their lousy parents? There's one currently running as I type this. So apparently someone is screwing up out there.

I guarantee you that Alex and his parents do not want me to kick that kid's ass FOR THEM when the kid later climbs all over my SO in a restaurant or feels the need to throw food at her in a grocery store. I have no problem at all with it.

So, with that said, do you think Dave's brother is happier getting the criticism from Dave? Or would he rather wait for all of us to just tear him and his kid up for him down the road if the kid turns out to be a real shit?

Anyway, it seems like it all worked out. Dave got things off his chest and his relationship with his bro isn't harmed. By the way, I tell my brother that his stepkids are shits all the time. He tells me to go fuck myself too.

[boo-urns]

Originally posted by sadic1
Silver has it exactly right. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for someone such as Dave (who has decided that they themselves are so unqualified and unwilling to be a parent that they'd commit to it surgically) to think they know enough about how to or how not to parent that their unsolicited outright criticism would be considered or appreciated demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of parenting and people in general. I'm also very leary of comments like the ones made by boourns. While I certainly don't advocate giving kids everything they ask for, to say that there is a direct correlation between only that aspect of how his kin were parented and their clearly antisocial and possibly psychotic behavior is a vast oversimplification of what goes into the personality development of kids. You can't say categorically that a kid behaves badly because they were given everything they asked for, because there is undoubtedly another kid out there who has been given everything they've asked for that is wonderful. Therefore, you must conclude that there are numerous other factors that go to determining if a kid is going to end up a good kid or not. Believe it or not, some of the most critical ones have little or nothing to do with how they were parented. I always get into this argument regarding the pros and cons of corporal punishment. There's plenty of good kids who never got hit, and there's plenty of bad ones. There's plenty of good kids who got hit, and plenty of bad ones. Obviously, there's more to their behavior's development than that one element, and all of it is well beyond Dave Newman's understanding or experience.

my point wasn't the children's behavior...it was the pattern of the parents not parenting that allowed the children's behavior to manifest itself into the mess it is today.

oh yeah, dad is buying the dropout a car....brilliant move, now the kid will probably kill someone driving drunk.

[McFly41]

Thin ice, Dave. Thin ice.

I for one couldn't tell just anyone how to raise their kids. However, if it were a family member it is a different story. I have said things to relatives in the past and not thought twice about it...granted they hate me now, but at least they know where I stand. They make me eat those words at times with my son, but I still don't regret say it.
You state your case better than I did, at least you tell them how much you care about them, I just told my cousin how much of an idiot her husband was and how her son acted out for attention, because negative attention was all he could get. Bascially, I said what three generations were thinking.
I'd say your piece, but be wary of the ramifications and potential results.

[Patti]

I share the unpopular opinion as well. And I do not have kids.

I think if I did have children my opinion would be that of all the parents on this board that said "FUCK OFF".

The thing of it is parents love their children soooo much that if anything or any one says anything negative about that child they will go off on you in a second. People love their child so much they will give them anything they want. Attack other people that do not feel the same way.

The first few years of a child's life is critical in the development of his/hers personality. What they learn about how to interact with people is based on the first few years of life. It is very hard to change that after they reach a certain age.

I think the childless people of this board have an unbiased opinion of what they see happening out in the real world.

[McFly41]

Not totally related, but an example of what Dave is refering to...

My son just asked for some Cheeto's. I took out the bag, set it on the counter and walked away because he didn't say please. That's that! Once he says the magic word, he'll get his treats.

You have to be consistent and NOT give up. My son might never learn, but I am not going to stop trying to teach him!

[meatpile]

Originally posted by Patti

I think the childless people of this board have an unbiased opinion of what they see happening out in the real world.

There's some logic.

Either that, or they're ignorant.

BTW - I think that all women should go sit in a cave until they get done with their period. I think they're selfish for not doing that.

I feel that as a man, my opinion is unbiased based on what i see happening in the real world.

Just kidding.

[kshead]

Well, I KNOW this is gonna bring 'em out in full force, but I've got to ask. :)

If a cop has never robbed a bank, is he still qualified to arrest the person who does it?
After all, the cop isn't a bank robber and isn't responsible for any bank robbers personally, but he can still tell you that bank robbing is wrong.

Please, please, please....everyone... spare me the "you are not a parent so you don't understand" bullshit. That's moral relativism at it's worst.

Here's what I took from this thread:

1) Some parents out there are raising lousy kids. We agree on this - no?

2) If you are not a parent, you do not have the right to criticize anyone else who has them. Go ahead, read the thread again if you think I'm wrong. :)

3) If you are a parent, you apparently do not want to criticize anyone else's parenting skils. Why? Apparently it's because most parents think "I wouldn't DARE criticize another parent - lest they do the same to me". WTF? See the cop above. Plenty of people (parents and non) have done PLENTY of criticizin' of parents throughout history. Society will survive. So will the kids.


So then we wonder how the hell we are are in this mess with rotten kids? See 1-3 again. If you are not a parent you aren't allowed to criticize, and if you have kids - you must not have the balls to be critical. I mean, I'd hate to be critical of a bunch of sorry ass parents out there. :rolleyes:

So....even taking into account that I fully understand what Patti and others have said about a parent being protective of a child...given what I've seen here I have to ask:

Just who the hell in society is allowed to be critical of the parents raising lousy children nowadays?

It seems that when we complain about kids anonymously and as a group, we can find PLENTY wrong with kids out there. It's when the finger gets pointed back specifically at a parent and their behavior that people get pissed off. Then they say "Oh no. Not me or MY kid."
Sound familiar? Anyone, anyone? Bueller?

Ok. Kshead season is open for business. Start shooting.

[meatpile]

I don't have a problem with people being critical, not at all.

I do have a problem with unsolicited advice, from pretty much anyone.

So, that's all.

[slydevl]

Great post kshead

Meatpile its not a good idea chaining your child to a bike rack while you go into a store. Oh...sorry for the unsolicited advice.

[meatpile]

Originally posted by slydevl
Meatpile its not a good idea chaining your child to a bike rack while you go into a store. Oh...sorry for the unsolicited advice.

He was wearing a helmet.

[slydevl]

A little more unsolicited advice. A cotton ball strapped to his head with a rubber band does not legally qualify as a "helmet"

[sadic1]

Originally posted by kshead
Well, I KNOW this is gonna bring 'em out in full force, but I've got to ask. :)

If a cop has never robbed a bank, is he still qualified to arrest the person who does it?
After all, the cop isn't a bank robber and isn't responsible for any bank robbers personally, but he can still tell you that bank robbing is wrong.

Please, please, please....everyone... spare me the "you are not a parent so you don't understand" bullshit. That's moral relativism at it's worst.

Here's what I took from this thread:

1) Some parents out there are raising lousy kids. We agree on this - no?

2) If you are not a parent, you do not have the right to criticize anyone else who has them. Go ahead, read the thread again if you think I'm wrong. :)

3) If you are a parent, you apparently do not want to criticize anyone else's parenting skils. Why? Apparently it's because most parents think "I wouldn't DARE criticize another parent - lest they do the same to me". WTF? See the cop above. Plenty of people (parents and non) have done PLENTY of criticizin' of parents throughout history. Society will survive. So will the kids.


So then we wonder how the hell we are are in this mess with rotten kids? See 1-3 again. If you are not a parent you aren't allowed to criticize, and if you have kids - you must not have the balls to be critical. I mean, I'd hate to be critical of a bunch of sorry ass parents out there. :rolleyes:

So....even taking into account that I fully understand what Patti and others have said about a parent being protective of a child...given what I've seen here I have to ask:

Just who the hell in society is allowed to be critical of the parents raising lousy children nowadays?

It seems that when we complain about kids anonymously and as a group, we can find PLENTY wrong with kids out there. It's when the finger gets pointed back specifically at a parent and their behavior that people get pissed off. Then they say "Oh no. Not me or MY kid."
Sound familiar? Anyone, anyone? Bueller?

Ok. Kshead season is open for business. Start shooting.

Here's the problem with this line of thinking. I'll break it down into 2 specific points.

1. It's perfectly legitimate to dislike the behavior of someone else's kids. Criticizing someone's kids to them can be perceived as an act of hostility.
2. Telling someone how they screwed up raising their kids or even offering suggestions on how they can improve at their job as parents is hugely presumptuous. If there was some magic formula for what to do to end up with happy, well adjusted, well behaved kids, everyone who cared would do it. As much as most of you seem to think otherwise, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the existence of such a magic bullet. There may be certain practices that most people agree are not prudent, but there is no way to be sure how much they ultimately contribute to a kid's disposition. Without this basically unattainable knowledge, any criticism or suggestions amount to arrows shot at the parents with no purpose. Judge not lest ye be judged.

[kshead]

Originally posted by sadic1


Here's the problem with this line of thinking. I'll break it down into 2 specific points.

1. It's perfectly legitimate to dislike the behavior of someone else's kids. Criticizing someone's kids to them can be perceived as an act of hostility.
2. Telling someone how they screwed up raising their kids or even offering suggestions on how they can improve at their job as parents is hugely presumptuous. If there was some magic formula for what to do to end up with happy, well adjusted, well behaved kids, everyone who cared would do it. As much as most of you seem to think otherwise, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the existence of such a magic bullet. There may be certain practices that most people agree are not prudent, but there is no way to be sure how much they ultimately contribute to a kid's disposition. Without this basically unattainable knowledge, any criticism or suggestions amount to arrows shot at the parents with no purpose. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Ok sure. Fair enough. I'll respond.

1) At this point - and I'm somewhat sorry to say this - I don't really care how hostile I sound. Nor will I care how it sounds to the parent. Apparently SOMEONE has to do it - the parent isn't. If your child is a little angel? Great. But as I said before, if your child is unruly and it effects me? All bets are off. If you don't like it, try controlling your kid. Why am I not allowed to get hostile because some sorry parent turns their brat loose in a public place?!? My parents would jerk me out of a public place in a heartbeat if it meant my spoiled little ass was annoying anyone else. That goes for church, restaurants, whatever. Where are these parents now? I haven't even gotten to the part about how my kids may someday have to go to school with some of these heathens....but if these same kids will be spending time with MY kids, then I'm not going to think twice about being critical of something that I perceive is wrong. Period. I'll take being hostile to a parent about their sorry kid as opposed to watching my kid go down the drain with their no account kids. Any day. Every day. If it means that I go through life known as the mean old man of the neighborhood? So what.

2) Never said I had the magic bullet Sadic. Without pondering the many mysteries of what makes one a model citizen or an axe murderer, I'm just on a riff about parental accountability and unruly kids. I see none here. I couldn't help but notice that many of the people I saw telling Dave what a shithead he was for being critical of the kids - also happened to be some of the same people who hate it when they are bugged by unruly children as well. That's hypocritical bullshit - so I'm pointing it out. It's what I do. :)

One other thing. I find it just downright astonishing that you would criticize Dave for the admirable (yes, admirable) trait of recognizing one of his own shortcomings - that he would be a bad parent. Instead, you make it out like he's some kind of wimp beacuse he didn't have kids. Maybe it's just me, but I'd much (MUCH, MUCH, MUCH) rather have Dave realize that fact now - and take the appropriate steps to prevent having children - than to have him realize it after he's squeezed out a few kids and is overwhelmed. Those kids would suffer for it. It seems to me like we have enough sorry ass parents (who gave the child-rearing process ZERO forethought) like that in this country already.

[sadic1]

I didn't say he's a whimp for thinking he doesn't want kids. I do think it's kind of stupid to burn the bridge and probably something he'll regret someday, but that's only my opinion and not relevant to this discussion.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in admitting that you're not qualified to have or raise yor own kids, but perfectly qualified to tell someone else how to raise theirs?

Part of the resistance that Dave is getting is not for his opinion, but for his choice to impart it to his brother and sister in law. I agree that people who bitch about poorly behaved kids should not take issue, but I don't bitch about poorly behaved kids. 4 year olds do annoying things. In many cases they're going to do those things regardless of how you react to them, in many cases they will continue to do those things because you react to them, and in many cases reacting to them will help prevent them. My point is that it's a quite inexact science, and anyone who tries to tell others how to do it is full of shit, and just venting frustration at the world for having to share it with other people, much like spoiled children themselves. If you see a kid acting up in public, have sympathy for the parents instead of automatically judging them and feeling sorry for yourself.

[kshead]

Originally posted by sadic1
I didn't say he's a whimp for thinking he doesn't want kids. I do think it's kind of stupid to burn the bridge and probably something he'll regret someday, but that's only my opinion and not relevant to this discussion.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in admitting that you're not qualified to have or raise yor own kids, but perfectly qualified to tell someone else how to raise theirs?

Dave's specific situation? Read the letter again. It looks to me like Dave took great pains in trying to decide whether or not to even bring the subject up. Also, as I said before - it's his brother and he knows him better than I do. I know that my family can criticize each other about anything, anytime. Maybe I'm in the minority there.

And yes I think it's a little bit hypocritical, but certainly not even close to the hypocrisy of the parents who stood up and told the rest of the board (world) that non-parents should butt out. That was a bit much. If you're (anyone) suggesting that I should have more sympathy for parents with chilren? Sure. I do. But sympathy and being critical are different. I can have plenty of sympathy and still be critical. Especially when we are all still sitting around complaining about the kids. I'm a lot more worried about helping kids than I am about hurting parents' feelings.

[kshead]

Damn, that's scary Sadic. You were adding the part about sympathy as I was typing mine I guess.

[wossa]

Well my whole beef with Mr. Newman's letter can be sized up in my new word of the day :

Condescension

[Dave Newman]

Wow.

I never thought this issue would spark such debate. Both here - and in a couple of usenet newsgroups - my post has elicited some very interesting responses (...as well as triggered many fights).

Thanks to all of the people who've shared their insights.

I'd alluded to this whole thing (i.e. the potentially negative effects of lackadaisical parenting) striking a nerve for me. So that you all may understand my seemingly irrational reaction, I'm going to try to explain this.

(I'm not sure that this is going to make sense. Objectively, I'D probably have a hard time with it, if not for the fact that I'm the one who has lived it...)

Neither Mom nor Dad were wrapped too tight. They definitely shouldn't have had kids.

Not being strong enough to be proper parents, they tried to be my friends. I was left to my own devices, to do as I saw fit.

At the time, this seemed to be a great deal! As I grew up, my friends were all jealous of my situation and the liberties I enjoyed. I got away with anything and everything!

This is where it gets tricky...

What I didn't realize until many years later: I was actually desperately yearning for them to finally put me in my place! I don't know about all kids, but I subconsciously equated discipline with caring.

Ironically, while I was allowed to come and go as I pleased, I was quietly envious of my friends whose parents imposed guidelines and curfews - because that showed that they were concerned!

As I continued to grow, I was still looking for someone to put their foot down and tell me to cut the crap.

I fucked up in school; I sabotaged the workplace; I alienated girlfriends.

It took me so much time and serious introspection to realize what I'd been doing and why.

God, I'd wasted all those years - and hurt so many people.

Once I attained this level of awareness and came to grips with all of the self-defeating behaviors, I was able to keep the bullshit in check.

The point of the matter is, I wouldn't ever want to see anyone (especially someone I know and love) experience what I had to. Hence the line "It is my opinion that kissing a kid's ass is not doing him any favors, in the long run."

It may not make my original page any more palatable - but maybe some of you will at least be able to understand why this whole thing is such a hot-button for me.

(Hey, Celyn... Is that pronounced "sell-in", "seel-in" or "chell-in"? None of the above? I want to make sure I'm saying it right in my head, when I read your posts and responses!

Anyway, I think a "pompous" individual believes that a person either agrees with him or is wrong; a self-confident one knows he is fucked up and appreciates and respects the opinions of others - he just has no need for their approval.) :D

[mathmajors]

:banana:

[hasbeen99]

I missed this originally and the links to the letters are broken. Wish someone would've posted them.

[kshead]

Ahhhh.....memories. :mushy:

We've decided we want 12 kids now.

[gridfaniker]

Mr. kshead,

It's one thing to criticize or offer suggestions. I'm sure they would be taken quite well. But that letter is quite disrepectful, as someone else suggested, and it completely insults everything his brother and wife have been doing.


Mr. kshead? you gotta be shitting me.