I voted aginst the Arena [Archive]

Dukesuckgounc

01-11-03, 07:00 PM

wossa

01-11-03, 09:16 PM

Putt when you see your new buddy Don tell him wossa says to fuck off.

thanks in advance

sds70

01-11-03, 09:31 PM

Putt: The lawsuit won't work . . . the referendum was non-binding . . . . The City Council wasn't bound to the decision of the voters . . . We could've easily said YES and the city still wouldn't have built it . . . . Don Reid is just being a sore loser and needs to get his name in the press again just to feel important again . . . I wish he would just move out to some remote part of the country where the taxes are dirt cheap and there isn't any sprawl . . . I'm sure this will be the only way he will ever be happy :rolleyes: :rolleyes: . . .

lj4three

01-11-03, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Puttingood
and now that I have thought about it, I am going to join up with Don Reid to try and stop City Council from using my hard earned tax dollar to fund a Billionaire that is gonna pay his employees millions just because they were born tall.
Let him build his own office. :mad:

Putt- you have the right to your opinion, i respect that. but to side with a man who misconstrues every detail to make his case sound formidable does not scream credibility. the arena project will serve as a catalyst for future uptown development and emergence- the hotel industry, convention bureau and many citizens as myself all see the intangibles that an arena brings to the table in the new economy. the downtown arena allows for synergy of resources to be fully extended- transit, lodging, entertainment, hospitality all within footsteps. the arena deal is 99.9% funded by tourists in the hotel/motel tax, and a $100 million underwriting of the arena by wachovia-bofa-duke in exchange for city owned land that will know be placed on the city AND county tax rolls. this was, most likely, our last legitimate chance in the near future to build an arena WITH a major tenant that is responsible for all costs and expenses associated with the building. yes, they will recieve the profit- but, they will cover the cost. the 20 year lease is pro-rated with the arena value, so there is a big penalty for breaking the lease. yes, the NBA is not in great form right now- but this provides people like myself another reason to stay in this city: entertainment and a more vibrant community. i'll feel proud when we tip off in the arena in 2005- i hope you'll be there too.

Puttingood

01-12-03, 01:10 AM

the arena deal is 99.9% funded by tourists in the hotel/motel tax, and a $100 million underwriting of the arena by wachovia-bofa-duke in exchange for city owned land that will know be placed on the city AND county tax rolls.

Get real !!!

cantgetright

01-12-03, 11:44 AM

Putt do you live in a hotel or drive rental cars on a constant basis? If not-it's not your tax money.

Hotel/Motel tax is being used plus the 100 million from the big 3.

If the new arnea wasn't being built-then your taxes would be raised to operate the old coliseum without a tenant(it's a sinking ship)

How can anyone be oppossed to something that is so positive for the city and cost nothing of the tax payers?

Why is Reid defending the poor voters on the arena but has said nothing negative about the on going negotiations to build the AAA baseball park? 57% said NO to that too right?

Puttingood

01-12-03, 12:42 PM

How can anyone be oppossed to something that is so positive for the city and cost nothing of the tax payers?

It's already cost me some tax money. Who do you think paid for it to be put on the ballot just to be ignored when voted down? I was just messing around but don't anybody ever be naieve enough to think that the tax payers don't pay. If it's such a great deal then why don't a man that has billions build his own place? Why does he need my money and when they use hotel-motel tax then they are using money that could have and would have been spent at local businesses. That tax money has never been ear-marked to fund private businesses. Does the city council have a right to dip into it for funding of private enterprise ? No--Will they? Yes--Is it legal? Time will tell
I really don't care about the arena but I voted against the whole package. There were things on that referendum that didn't smell right. Business is business and tax money--other than tax break incentives--should never be used to fund private businesses.
I don't care for Don Reid and personally wouldn't give him the time of day but he has a point on this one and as much as I hate it, he makes a lot of sense. To go against the will of the majority is basically saying "Fuck y'all, we will do what we want" That is a bad precedent to set and can come back to haunt you. I think what the man is saying is "You might use tax money to build an arena for a private business but you damn sure ain't gonna make me think I don't know what you up to"
Y'all can holler hotel-motel tax all you want but it all comes back to the tax-payers. It trickles down in some way, shape or fashion.

cantgetright

01-12-03, 02:41 PM

It's not funding a private business- it's investing in our own city.

Without the arena Charlotte will keep getting passed over for tournaments like the CiAA that went to Raleigh this year instead of Charlotte. That means that all those hotels and restaurants reaped the benefits that would/should/could have been ours.

Charlotte hasn't even built the new arena and we are already putting in a bid for the NCAA womens tourney(mens have to be in a 30k plus venue now). That's money into our economy that wouldn't be possible without the arena.

The ACC tourney will come to Charlotte more often with the new arena. That's more money into our economy.

Without the arena Charlotte will keep getting passed over for numerous events and lose out on alot more than the 250-300 million it's gonna cost to build the damn thing.

The NBA All-Star game is another money maker that wouldn't be possible without the new arena.

The old arena more than paid for itself with the money the events earned for our city. I bet the two NCAa tourneys and the All-Star game alone earned enough to alone to justify the cost of construction. I magine the new arena will have the same type of impact.

meatpile

01-12-03, 04:41 PM

lj4three

01-12-03, 05:11 PM

the taxes that are earmarked for the arena are TOURIST taxes that can only be spent on entertainment/tourist related projects, by NC STATE law. if you guys have a problem with allocating the said tourist taxes to fund entertainment and tourist projects, take it up with the state. NO taxes will be increased.

meatpile

01-12-03, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by lj4three
the taxes that are earmarked for the arena are TOURIST taxes that can only be spent on entertainment/tourist related projects, by NC STATE law. if you guys have a problem with allocating the said tourist taxes to fund entertainment and tourist projects, take it up with the state. NO taxes will be increased.

Buddy, I ain't arguing anything except I think it's wrong. I'll take it up with whoever brings it up on a goddam discussion board.

And taxes WILL be increased. To tourists. That's a tax, dumbass.

Piper

01-12-03, 05:32 PM

And it isn't like it is going to be used just for the NBA. The city can use the facility to attract other events. Maybe Charlotte will get some decent concerts now in the Spring, Fall and Winter.

Certainly MSG and the like are what they are because of the events they attract themselves, not because of the Knicks.

Puttingood

01-12-03, 05:33 PM

It's not funding a private business- it's investing in our own city.

:D that's funny. It is investing in our own city but it is definitely funding a private business. In order for people to believe in this thing then the facts have to given truthfully. How much tax money went into the stadium ? How much tax money went into the speedway? How much tax money is going into Joes diner down on South Blvd. You got a good argument but you and others kill the integrity of it by saying "It's not funding private enterprise" when the bare facts and the truth is that it is MOST definitely funding private enterprise.;)

There are hundreds of companies that bring people in to town and give them rental cars. The downtown motels are full during the week because of taxpaying companies that bring people in. So, the hotel tax is not just made up of tourists that want to tour our fair city. These companies endure higher and higher taxes each year and they pay it. Close to 50% of all motels in Mecklenburg county are used as extended stay motels. These people work in this county. That tax that everyone hollers about is not totally comprised of the Smith family on vacation.Some that pay that tax have to miss a meal in a local restaurant because of the high tax.
Is there a guarantee that the NBA will even be in business next year or 10 years from now?
None of it makes any nevermind to me. I will go to the games and I will pay my taxes but the city council or no one else can tell me I ain't getting fucked when I am standing there with a dick up my ass.

magnus

01-12-03, 05:36 PM

now if this were for something like baseball I'm sure there'd be a completely different tone.

Guest

01-12-03, 05:37 PM

How much money went to the BMW plant? How much goes to Lake Norman and Wyle development? How much goes to subsidize farming? The government subsidizing the private sector is not new. They have been doing it for years.

meatpile

01-12-03, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by riddel
How much money went to the BMW plant? How much goes to Lake Norman and Wyle development? How much goes to subsidize farming? The government subsidizing the private sector is not new. They have been doing it for years.

And I disagree with all of it.

lj4three

01-12-03, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by meatpile

Buddy, I ain't arguing anything except I think it's wrong. I'll take it up with whoever brings it up on a goddam discussion board.

And taxes WILL be increased. To tourists. That's a tax, dumbass.

actually, taxes wont be increased- their appropriation will be towards the arena project, instead of lets say a museum or cultural center.

Puttingood

01-12-03, 06:14 PM

now if this were for something like baseball I'm sure there'd be a completely different tone.

Not from me it wouldn't Mag if that was directed at me for what ever reason. My tone on any funding of private business is the same regardless. I have spent more money on sports in this town than most you guys have ever made in your life. What sport it is has no bearing on it and it is very sad that someone would think so.
The issue is tax money funding the private sector. Whether it has happened before is not the point and whether it happens again is not the point. The point is--it ain't right. I am like Meat-- I disagree with all of it.
LJ likes to say taxes won't be increased. Thats cause they already have been year after year. And you can bet your sweet ass that they will go up and rest assured that it will affect the citizens of Charlotte in some way shape or form.

meatpile

01-12-03, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by lj4three

actually, taxes wont be increased- their appropriation will be towards the arena project, instead of lets say a museum or cultural center.

you're still a dumbass, dumbass.

Guest

01-12-03, 07:43 PM

All us dumbasses are getting a new arena with tax dollars, so nana nana boo boo stick your head in doo doo.

lj4three

01-12-03, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by meatpile

you're still a dumbass, dumbass.

thank you for admitting your defeat.

LJ likes to say taxes won't be increased. Thats cause they already have been year after year. And you can bet your sweet ass that they will go up and rest assured that it will affect the citizens of Charlotte in some way shape or form.

Putt- motel/hotel and car rental taxes havent increased every year. as a matter of fact, this deal is solely based upon projections from the current tax stream. so you are lieing, at least right now, when you say taxes have increased b/c of the arena.

and you seem to ignore the fact that the old coliseum and the old convention center property will be back on the private sector's onus- therefore, the city will not pay for maintenance on those buildings and will earn property tax and other tax revenues from those properties- this money will go to schools and other sectors funded by our general fund. and the redevelopment of these properties will also contribute to our local economy. factor in that to your equation.

meatpile

01-12-03, 07:56 PM

I never admitted defeat.

Our government is using tax dollars for something I feel they have no business doing. OK they did, and it might be legal, bla, bla, bla. I don't think they should do it.

And if they have the money to do it, they collect too many taxes. They should give me my fucking money back.

I feel very strongly about this, and I honestly believe that people who feel differently are pretty much suckers and sheep that got ate up by the wolf and said 'thanks'.

meatpile

01-12-03, 08:01 PM

LJ said:

and will earn property tax and other tax revenues from those properties

That's taxes, LJ. I'm sure you don't see this the way i do, but it's taxes. I'm not happy that they will earn more money, i prefer they spend less, period, always, every time. The argument that this saves me money is crap, because government grows and grows and grows. The more they earn, the more they'll need to tax me later, because the bigger they'll get and government growth creates yet more government growth.

Government begats more government. It's proven. It's the way history works. If you think I'm wrong, do a taxation analysis for the last 70 years, and you'll see I'm right. Do an analysis of government spending as compared to GDP.

I'm actually astounded that I have to point this out.

Puttingood

01-12-03, 08:03 PM

you are lieing, at least right now, when you say taxes have increased b/c of the arena.

Did I say that ?

This is what I said---Thats cause they already have been year after year. That is not a lie and I certainly don't like being called one for something I never said. The hotel- motel tax has steadily increased which brings us to the surplus you speak of. Do you think that I meant that some how people could see in the future and raise them just to get to the point we at now. I don't think it was nice of you to interpret what I said and then call me a liar.

lj4three

01-12-03, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Puttingood
you are lieing, at least right now, when you say taxes have increased b/c of the arena.

Did I say that ?

This is what I said---Thats cause they already have been year after year. That is not a lie and I certainly don't like being called one for something I never said. The hotel- motel tax has steadily increased which brings us to the surplus you speak of. Do you think that I meant that some how people could see in the future and raise them just to get to the point we at now. I don't think it was nice of you to interpret what I said and then call me a liar.

i guess i misinterpreted your comment. in context, thats what i thought you wrote:

LJ likes to say taxes won't be increased. Thats cause they already have been year after year. And you can bet your sweet ass that they will go up and rest assured that it will affect the citizens of Charlotte in some way shape or form.

i thought you were referring to the arena. my mistake.

by Meatpile
That's taxes, LJ. I'm sure you don't see this the way i do, but it's taxes. I'm not happy that they will earn more money, i prefer they spend less, period, always, every time. The argument that this saves me money is crap, because government grows and grows and grows. The more they earn, the more they'll need to tax me later, because the bigger they'll get and government growth creates yet more government growth.

You make a valid point and i respect where you're coming from. however, whether it be right or it be wrong, the fact is that the arena referendum, which was non-binding, was voted on in june 2001. that november, practically every anti-arena voice on the council sans lochman was voted off the city council. new council people, who swayed pro-arena, were in office and had a chance at renegotiating a deal that had been voted down 57-43 due to many factors (bundling, ownership hatred, player disgust, private-public partnership etc, car rental tax increase etc..) this deal has $100 million of investment from the private sector, public land going into private taxpaying hands, and no increase in our current tax rate, and no property taxes. yet, it solves some problems in our city- luring in young professionals by providing more entertainment options, strengthening the urban core, allowing the city to be more competitive in conventions/sporting events, and getting a major tenant while we have the chance to grab one. i see this as an opportunity cost worth taking.

meatpile

01-12-03, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by lj4three
allowing the city to be more competitive in conventions/sporting events,

This is the crux of the problem. Other city governments have taken the liberty of getting into the business. Now, our local government feels pressure, and also can state precedence. Government begats more government.

After all, if other municipalties hadn't done this, I'll guarantee you Charlotte wouldn't be the pioneer.

It's a problem that I feel is much bigger than what you mention. And government only grows - each time something like this happens, it makes it easier to do it again and again. It's what's happened with government for the past 70 years. The boiling frog syndrome.

Puttingood

01-12-03, 08:23 PM

i see this as an opportunity cost worth taking.

granted it is ---but don't grease that baby up and shove it up my ass and then try to convince me it ain't tax dollars helping private enterprise. It's exactly what it is and people should say it. It don't matter if you for it or against it.

lj4three

01-12-03, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by meatpile

This is the crux of the problem. Other city governments have taken the liberty of getting into the business. Now, our local government feels pressure, and also can state precedence. Government begats more government.

After all, if other municipalties hadn't done this, I'll guarantee you Charlotte wouldn't be the pioneer.

It's a problem that I feel is much bigger than what you mention. And government only grows - each time something like this happens, it makes it easier to do it again and again. It's what's happened with government for the past 70 years. The boiling frog syndrome.

i dont disagree with what you're saying and you're viewpoint. BUT- for charlotte to stay competitive and continue to stay as an attractive city for people to move into, what do you recommend as an alternative?? sports and entertainment can be huge factors in where people determine where they live.

granted it is ---but don't grease that baby up and shove it up my ass and then try to convince me it ain't tax dollars helping private enterprise. It's exactly what it is and people should say it. It don't matter if you for it or against it.

i cant tell people how to feel and have no right to tell you what is personally right or wrong. thats up to you to decide, and i respect your right to state your opinion. i just felt it necessary to get the details out on why I think it is a solid deal.

cantgetright

01-12-03, 09:09 PM

Meat- it is saving you money. If those buildinngs weren't in private hands tax money would be used for its upkeep. In private hands they genrate money and don't call on your money for it's upkeep. That simple math. Government growing yes- that's a different subject for a different board however.

If not the arena then what? This money by law has to be spent on a tourism related project-It can't be used for schools, roads, or firefighters. So I'm asking what other project could we use this money on that would have as great an impact on our local economy and spur economic growth?

If your against it because you can think of a better investment for the money I can respect that but, If it's just no with no better option or ideas than you have lost the arguement/debate as far as I'm concerned.

The Brain

01-12-03, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Puttingood
don't grease that baby up and shove it up my ass and then try to convince me it ain't tax dollars helping private enterpriseI tell ya what... I'm all for the new arena... primarily because of the POTENTIAL it has to begining a downtown expansion... but damned if that's not the funniest line I've heard...

meatpile

01-12-03, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by cantgetright
Meat- it is saving you money. If those buildinngs weren't in private hands tax money would be used for its upkeep. In private hands they genrate money and don't call on your money for it's upkeep. That simple math. Government growing yes- that's a different subject for a different board however.

Well I'm talkling about it on this board.

If not the arena then what? This money by law has to be spent on a tourism related project-It can't be used for schools, roads, or firefighters. So I'm asking what other project could we use this money on that would have as great an impact on our local economy and spur economic growth?

This is the problem. Government collects money and has extra and decides it needs to be spent the way they allocated it. I disagree with this policy, although it seems to be more of a philosophy when discussing it with liberals. The 'project' should be a tax cut, or better yet a tax refund. Anytime money is taken away from government, to me, it's better.

If your against it because you can think of a better investment for the money I can respect that but, If it's just no with no better option or ideas than you have lost the arguement/debate as far as I'm concerned.

All of my ideas were stated, I guess you didn't read / misread them. My opinion is that the money is better off in the hands of the people that were taxed. Government should not be in the entertainment business. There's alot more that I said that it appears you missed. And I'm not debating / arguing, I'm stating an opinion, and you haven't. All you've done is do a very poor job of analyzing and criticizing mine.

cantgetright

01-12-03, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by meatpile

All of my ideas were stated, I guess you didn't read / misread them. My opinion is that the money is better off in the hands of the people that were taxed.

My whole post wasn't aimed at you just the part about Your Tax money.

Well your idea is to give back the tax money to the person who paid it right?

Well Bob Johnson being a billionaire and all -has paid more in taxes than everyone on this board combined so, I guess you are getting your way. Johnson in essence is getting a 265 million dollar tax rebate check and is building a new arena for Charlotte to own. :D

BTW- Can anybody think of a project better than the arena for the money? I'm interested in hearing some other options.

Piper

01-13-03, 11:18 AM

OK, if the Gods will forgive me for going off topic….

I agree that capatalism is good. However.

If government involvement in the economy, through either building an arena or low interest loans, to attract business is bad for capatalism.

Basically, our economy has never grown faster than it has in the past 70 years. We’ve never made so much money. Why is it that this growth didn’t happen before we started getting into such things.

Guest

01-13-03, 08:21 PM

The deal is done. You guys can add this to your list of things you don't want your tax dollars to pay for.

YEEEHAAAAAAAA!

Xantos

01-14-03, 01:15 AM

Solution: move to Statesville or Gastonia.......The Arena was going to get built at some point. It's in the 2010 plan....Better now than paying a couple Billion dollars 5 or 6 yerars from now.

Unfortuantly this city is not going to stop growing, Live with it or move. Then you or anybody that want to cry taxes want have anything to cry about.

Who's paying for the old Arena...We are. No Major Tenant, No Tornament Games, No Concerts, ect.

How much revenue did the Bowl Game bring a couple of weeks ago?
The Media got this city thinking we are gonna have to pay at some point, and maybe we will, but with 100 already on the table, and The Hotel Motel Tax, we might have to pay 5 to 10%, better than what we would have had to pay if the referendum would have passed.

How much did Mr Johnson pay for his team?
I think it was the sum of 300 Million....

Johnson pays Millions in Taxes (http://ww.chanba.tk/)

Puttingood

01-14-03, 07:47 PM

Solution: move to Statesville or Gastonia....... Xantos

I ain't moving nowhere Xantos but one thing for sure is that you ain't going to no ball games for awhile unless you do.:roflmao:

If you want to discuss something then don't come in here with childish junk suggesting people move. You apparently did not read all the posts and now you gonna post a link to a Bulletin Board to prove a fact.

Tell me Xantos--how much tax will Mr. Johnson be paying on this arena ? You got any figures on that ?

magnus

01-14-03, 07:51 PM

well, he'd be paying a lot, seeing as how he comes from out of town.

You missed his point - if you don't want to pay tax on it, you have to move. I dunno what point that is, since it's a travel related tax.

reddtroll

01-14-03, 08:46 PM

I was wondering if we can use some of that money to build a new jail beside the arena to house the players? :D

Puttingood

01-14-03, 11:58 PM

You missed his point - if you don't want to pay tax on it, you have to move. I dunno what point that is, since it's a travel related tax.

;) I think he missed my point. I never said I wasn't or didn't want to pay taxes on it. I said " don't grease that baby up and shove it up my ass and then try to convince me it ain't tax dollars helping private enterprise."

Xantos

01-15-03, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Puttingood
Solution: move to Statesville or Gastonia....... Xantos

I ain't moving nowhere Xantos but one thing for sure is that you ain't going to no ball games for awhile unless you do.:roflmao:

If you want to discuss something then don't come in here with childish junk suggesting people move. You apparently did not read all the posts and now you gonna post a link to a Bulletin Board to prove a fact.

Tell me Xantos--how much tax will Mr. Johnson be paying on this arena ? You got any figures on that ?

Xantos is formaly Obewon....
I have no idea what you mean on the smartass quote, I live in Meck. County... my IP is local.

How is it childish? Hell it hits my pockets just like you.....The city wanted it, and it was gonna happen regaurdless of how hard you think your being fucked! I didn't say anyone had to move, that was just a solution....WTF

The man is gonna have to pay taxes, a number wasn't given, but I'm sure it'll be in the Millions......Since you seemed to be so offended with me posting "childish links", you can find the info at Charlotte.com

Puttingood

01-15-03, 01:07 AM

chill Obewon

I thought you posted this Unfortuantly this city is not going to stop growing, Live with it or move. Then you or anybody that want to cry taxes want have anything to cry about. but apparently that was xantos that said that.
Now you say this I didn't say anyone had to move, that was just a solution....WTF

See my confusion ? One place you gave me a choice --Live with it or move---then another place you tell me you didn't say anyone had to move. Help me out Xantos. You want me to move or don't you?

Xantos

01-15-03, 01:16 AM

Putt, I don't care what ya do......A solution (which is just my opinon) is that If someone is complaining about the taxes, and the city gettin' in there pockets. It would be cheaper to live outside of Charlotte. That's a solution, that's it.

I'm not telling ANYONE if you don't like it then move....

This city is growing, I chose to move here 10 years ago, and things like this you just can't stop. No matter what. To much money involved......I do hate the negativty the media has put around this whole thing. NC is just like Indaina, BBall state, I think Hoops should be here on all levels.

Puttingood

01-15-03, 02:02 AM

I'm not telling ANYONE if you don't like it then move.... posted by Xantos

Live with it or move. Then you or anybody that want to cry taxes want have anything to cry about. posted by Xantos

:confused:

Guest

01-15-03, 08:28 AM

I moved to Weddington, so I guess all you Charlotte boys will cover my cost of the arena. Thanks!

By the way, I like Budweiser not Miller at the concessions.

You guys let me know when it's ready.

Thanks again!

The guy that moved out of charlotte and into one of the lowest tax region in state.

The Brain

01-15-03, 11:05 AM

he is insecure in that he has to point out his profession as an importance in his letter... does he mean that garbage men, letter carries, and truckers are ignorant and can't decide on whether or not they want to pay taxes or not??

Puttingood

01-15-03, 12:54 PM

My point has and always will be that the taxes that have already been paid are not going to be given back regardless of an arena being built and tax monies are still gonna be collected and some are still gonna be used for an arena. It takes a complete fool to think that the cost of an arena is not going to touch the pockets of taxpayers. As far as NBA players themeselves or the owner pumping in millions in taxes is rediculous. Only a couple from the old team even lived in Charlotte. Of course that ain't the point. I don't give a crap what they do with my tax money but don't look me in the eyes and tell me a complete lie and think I am stupid enough to fall for it. The actual vote itself cost us money and I voted against the package, not just the arena. Too much other stuff on the agenda besides the arena back then. If the arena had been on the agenda by itself then I would more than likely had voted yes.
I understand what the NBA can give to Charlotte. A 10 year old kid could see that. It's the people that want the team so bad that are not making any sense. State the facts instead of just arguing for a arena. Tax money will be used and that is a fact. It is tax money that was collected or will be collected either from the taxpayers of Meck county or indirectly from the tax payers of Meck county. Grown men are running around screaming that "you don't understand! the hotel motel tax is blah blah blah." I understand and I ain't that smart. What I can't understand is why some of you people think that there is a magic suitcase of money that only came from tourist spending nights in Meck county.
Like I said--I don't mind getting it up the ass but don't try to convince me that it ain't no dick you got shoved up there.