This just in from FoxNews

[Dukesuckgounc]

Inspectors Find Empty Chemical Warheads in Iraq :cool:

[barracuda]

Could this be a smoking gun?

[Dukesuckgounc]

very well couid be the smoking gun that we are looking for woard out of israel is saying that war mit start on February 22

[Ssstern]

12 shells. Just my devious mind but how hard would it be to have some of our SEALS slip in there and plant 12 shells to get the Smoking Gun...

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq on Thursday found empty warheads designed to carry chemical warfare agents, a U.N. spokesman said in Baghdad.

Hiro Ueki did not elaborate on the possible significance of the find during an inspection of the Ukhaider Ammunition Storage Area. He said an inspection team had gone there to inspect a large group of bunkers constructed in the late 1990s.

"During the course of their inspection, the team discovered 11 empty 122 mm chemical warheads and one warhead that requires further evaluation," Ueki said in a statement.

"The warheads were in excellent condition and were similar to ones imported by Iraq during the late 1980s. The team used portable X-ray equipment to conduct preliminary analysis of one of the warheads and collected samples for chemical testing."

There was no immediate comment from the Iraqi side.

President Saddam Hussein's administration has insistently denied still possessing chemical weapons, which Iraq has been repeatedly ordered to give up under United Nations Security Council resolutions dating back to the Gulf crisis of 1990.

Inspectors have complained that Iraq has failed to provide evidence of action it says it took to destroy stocks of banned weapons following the departure of previous U.N. teams in 1998.

Following a new Council resolution, 1441, passed in November last year, U.N. inspectors returned to Iraq four weeks ago.

The United Nations has warned Iraq that a failure to observe its ban on chemical, biological and nuclear weapons will have "serious consequences." The United States is already massing forces in the region for a possible invasion to overthrow Saddam.

.

[Superfluous_Nut]

What is the significance of an empty warhead? Were provisions made in the resolution regarding this sort of thing? Obviously you could draw the conclusion that they're waiting for their payload or that the payload is hiding somewhere else, but are the missiles themselves explicitly barred? Considering what the US is attempting to do, I really think we need to "go by the book" as best we can or it'll be very, very bad.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

I'm really not for a war, and I'm on the fence here, but......

I believe that some people, especially partisans, wouldn't beleive Saddam had WMD, if he, himself, sent out a live vid feed- where he's standing there with his arm around a nuke, with the words "to America with love, Saddam" on it. All the while telling us "it'll be there in a coupla days".
Those "some " people would still say, "it's a damn GW hoax, and I don't buy it.....", until the fallout hits them. Then they'd still blame the "administration" on it. Especially anyone who doesn't eye-witness the exposion, themselves, in Europe.

Now this ain't the smoking gun, neccessarily. And I bet we never find a smoking gun that'll convince the "masses" of the world, no matter what's ever found.

[vpkozel]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut
What is the significance of an empty warhead? Were provisions made in the resolution regarding this sort of thing? Obviously you could draw the conclusion that they're waiting for their payload or that the payload is hiding somewhere else, but are the missiles themselves explicitly barred? Considering what the US is attempting to do, I really think we need to "go by the book" as best we can or it'll be very, very bad.

Nut, I think that just having this type of warhead is a breach of the SC resolution. However, I am sure that all the same talking heads will come out and say that this isn't that big of a deal and we should just relax, and besides it was empty, and so on and so forth. I guess my question is - what will it take for you to accept that he is in breach. Would anything short of a nuclear or chemical weapon in the air towards a city convince you?

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by vpkozel


Nut, I think that just having this type of warhead is a breach of the SC resolution. However, I am sure that all the same talking heads will come out and say that this isn't that big of a deal and we should just relax, and besides it was empty, and so on and so forth. I guess my question is - what will it take for you to accept that he is in breach. Would anything short of a nuclear or chemical weapon in the air towards a city convince you?

If it's truly a breach, then I accept it as such. But keep in mind this is exactly why I think you first find out what is there, then decide on a course of action. If everything is as borderline as this case, then that has to be taken into consideration just as if we found out he had helped the 9/11 terrorists and had a current plan brewing for sneaking a nuke into NYC. Those would be two extremes that would justify two different courses of action.

[Dukesuckgounc]

foxnews just said that President Bush has even biger smoking gun so i gues today what the Inspectors Find today was just the bigin

[Boo]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/16/sproject.irq.wrap/index.html

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Just wondering...wouldn't Iraq not inluding these weapons in the 11000 page 'disclosure' be a breach in itself, regardless of whether they were empty or not?


edit: Oh, sorry, I just read where Iraq said they'd 'forgotten' about them. Wonder how much other shit Iraq has 'forgotten' about.:rolleyes:

[meatpile]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin
Just wondering...wouldn't Iraq not inluding these weapons in the 11000 page 'disclosure' be a breach in itself, regardless of whether they were empty or not?

Yes. I think that's the whole point. If they didn't disclose these, what else are they hiding?

How old is the chemical weapon residue?

How long would it take to put Chemical weapons in the warheads?

I think this is pretty hard evidence.

As if we wouldn't had bombed the piss out of them anyway.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

If the building they were in were built in the 'late 90's' as was stated, it's not like they been there long enough to have really been forgotten. Or is there really just so much other stuff like that there, just them 11 were overlooked?

[Boo]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut
What is the significance of an empty warhead? Were provisions made in the resolution regarding this sort of thing? Obviously you could draw the conclusion that they're waiting for their payload or that the payload is hiding somewhere else, but are the missiles themselves explicitly barred? Considering what the US is attempting to do, I really think we need to "go by the book" as best we can or it'll be very, very bad.

if you found an empty crack pipe in your kid's room what would you say?

it's empty therefore no problem here?

[Boo]

Originally posted by meatpile




As if we wouldn't had bombed the piss out of them anyway.

yep...too late now. We aren't sending over 10's of thousand of troops to twiddle their thumbs.

[Patti]

Originally posted by Boo


if you found an empty crack pipe in your kid's room what would you say?

it's empty therefore no problem here?

Good point Boo. We have wasted to much time and money on these assholes trying to prove they are innocent the way it is.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by Boo


if you found an empty crack pipe in your kids room what would you say?

He'd probably bitch...but then his kid would say..."

"What's the significance about an empty crack pipe? Were there provisions in your resolution reguarding that I not smoke crack, as to actually possessing an EMPTY crack pipe? Obviously you could draw the conclusion that I was actually gonna smoke crack out of it, but is an empty crack pipe actually barred? Considering the fact of what you are attempting to do, dad, you should definitely go by the book, but I remember nothing about empty crack pipes."

Then EJ relies, "You are right son, an EMPTY crack pipe is not bad for you. I guess until I actually see you smoke crack in it, I should just mind my own business. I have taught you well, my son."

[Boo]

It's only fair that we now bomb them with empty tomahawks..that'll teach 'em.

[Braves]

Originally posted by Boo
if you found an empty crack pipe in your kid's room what would you say?

Well..if he said " Sorry Dad, I forgot "..then Okay :D

But seriously, does anybody actually believe that the US is going to let Saddam off the hook no matter what? Bush is going to oust him with or without UN backing..( He must really know "something" that he hasn't made public )..that's the only reason I can think of for him to be so determined to get Hussein.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

I swear I don't WANT to go to war, but:
I think Bush does have evidence, and lots more. I think he's letting it known, piece by piece to the inspection team, so that they find stuff, or evidence, saving the big shit for last.
As they find little shit, and Hussein still doesn't want to 'update' his 'list', then when the bigger shit comes along, nobody can say a damn thing when the bombs go a-flyin.

[Patti]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin
I swear I don't WANT to go to war, but:
I think Bush does have evidence, and lots more. I think he's letting it known, piece by piece to the inspection team, so that they find stuff, or evidence, saving the big shit for last.
As they find little shit, and Hussein still doesn't want to 'update' his 'list', then when the bigger shit comes along, nobody can say a damn thing when the bombs go a-flyin.


Is he stringing it out as long as he can so he can be the big hero close to the election.

I'm not dissing Republicans. But I wouldn't put that past most politicians regardless of the party they are affiliated with.

[T_Schroll]

Blix had to lead around by the nose the last time to find anything. Same thing this go round. He found nothing early on and bitched that if we had any intelligence to give it to him. We did and guess what? He starts finding shit.

There's a reason this shit is not being made public. It compromises sources and tips off Saddam. Better that when (not if) we go in this shit be nailed down as to it's location so it can be neutralized and not allowed to be used against our troops or the Iraqi population.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by Boo


if you found an empty crack pipe in your kid's room what would you say?

it's empty therefore no problem here?


That sounds like a good question, 'cept that a crack pipe isn't a reasonable thing for a kid to own. Iraq isn't barred from owning ordinance, just certain varieties. If this was one of the varieties as it stands, then I would conclude that they are in breach of the UN resolutions.

That crack pipe analogy is interesting, tho. Iraq is the "son with the empty pipe (and presumable the crack to fill it)" and I guess that makes the USA the "father with stash of crack and loads and loads of crack pipes".

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by Patti



Is he stringing it out as long as he can so he can be the big hero close to the election.



No, I don't think so, but I wouldn't put something like that past any politican.
However, I do think Bush's getting his 'ducks in a row' if you will, because we're gonna wait for the report, and we have to have everything in place before we start. He ain't gonna say we're at war and wait till everything's ready, we'll hear about actually being at war when the bombs start falling.

I still think we might avoid the war, by simply showing that we're ready to actually go, and his neighbors are gonna get rid of Saddam for us (hopefully), and I think that's the innitial plan.
Everybody, including Saddam, knows he's a gonner when the shit hits the fan.
His neighbors wouldn't be pushing so hard to do it this way, without our military being there. Rattling sabers to help get things your way is one thing, rattling them when you got a military ready to kick ass accomplishes much more.
I think also, as soon as he's gone, whether by a war or coupe, we're gonna have our military there to take care of N.Korea, by war or coupe (don't think that's possible here), or negotiation spurred by the same saber rattling(possible with show of major force), thus killing two birds with one stone.

[Boo]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut



That sounds like a good question, 'cept that a crack pipe isn't a reasonable thing for a kid to own. Iraq isn't barred from owning ordinance, just certain varieties. If this was one of the varieties as it stands, then I would conclude that they are in breach of the UN resolutions.

you don't think kids own crack pipes?

Iraq is barred from owning weapons and weapons systems (ie chem warheads).


That crack pipe analogy is interesting, tho. Iraq is the "son with the empty pipe (and presumable the crack to fill it)" and I guess that makes the USA the "father with stash of crack and loads and loads of crack pipes".

except Iraq makes their own chem and biological agents.

Making the chemicals is generally not a problem...we already know Iraq is fully capable of making several chemical and biological agents, they can be stored any where, in anything. Its the delivery system, such as a warhead, that is the real indicator of a viable weapon system.

One don't fill a warhead with bio wepons and let it sit...leak...get old. chem/bio weapons don't last long. usually you fill them within weeks or even days of using them.

It's not like they found a bunch of dinged up, dented, dusty, dirty, nearly destroyed warheads on the ground of some bombed out bunker. The warheads are potentially operational and evidently well maintained. It's against the resolutions for Iraq to have them....period end of story. Plus, they aren't accounted for in their report.

Chemical warheads? What chemical warheads? Oh!!!You mean those chemical warheads. Please don't ask us what we buried under those new dirt mounds.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by Boo

you don't think kids own crack pipes?


you missed my point. what i was saying is that a crack pipe isn't somebody anybody should have. iraq is barred from having particular types of weapon systems. if these warheads fit into the category of "chemical warheads" then it sounds like they're in breach.


Making the chemicals is generally not a problem...we already know Iraq is fully capable of making several chemical and biological agents, they can be stored any where, in anything. Its the delivery system, such as a warhead, that is the real indicator of a viable weapon system.

One don't fill a warhead with bio wepons and let it sit...leak...get old. chem/bio weapons don't last long. usually you fill them within weeks or even days of using them.


Hence the question, "What is the significance of empty warheads?" I would hope that if what you say is true (and i'm not doubting that it is), that the resolution would list "payload ready" warheads as something we need to know about.

[Boo]

Chemical warheads differ in design from your basic HE (high explosive)/frag warhead: Where the traditional HE warhead is relatively thick-shelled (to send more fragments whizzing through the air on exploding), a chemical warhead would be thin-skinned, saving weight to deliver more chemical agent. It would be designed for a small explosive charge - just enough to disperse the agent - where the HE warhead will have a much more substantial charge.

Any Army Field Manual in the world lists shells with low-grade explosions as an indication of chemical attack.

These aren't Scud warheads, btw - the 122 mm free-flight missile is a battlefield weapon with a maximum range of 20 km (about 12 and a half miles). They're launched from a multi-barrel launcher and while they're pretty imprecise, they can deliver a lot of ordnance on the target area in a very short time.