Bush challenges affirmative action

[PantherMills]

I'm curious as to what the opinion of this board is on this?


Thursday, January 16, 2003

WASHINGTON — President Bush announced Wednesday that his administration will challenge an affirmative action program being tested before the Supreme Court, saying the University of Michigan's points-rewards for minority students amounts to a quota system.





"I strongly support diversity of all kinds, including racial diversity in higher education, but the method used by the University of Michigan to achieve this goal is fundamentally flawed," the president said in a late afternoon announcement in the White House Roosevelt Room.

"At their core, the Michigan policies amount to a quota system that unfairly reward or penalize prospective students solely on their race," he said.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Race shouldn't matter when picking people based on merit. I would point out, tho, that there are other equally wrong criteria used in the selection process. You get points if your parent is an alumn, for example. You get points if you're poor. You get points for a variety of things that don't relate to ability or merit. It gets difficult trying to wade thru which ones are legit and which ones aren't.

[PantherMills]

I'll give mine up front...

I think giving a prospective college student an initial 20 points out of a possible 150 because of their race is a slap in the face to the ones who receive these points.

It's like looking at a young black man square in the face and telling him, "You're not good or smart enough to do this on your own...so here, take this."

Hardly a vision of a colorblind society if you ask me.

[Agent Smith]

I agree that affirmative action is insulting and that race should not matter.

[lj4three]

until our public school system is equitable to all races and monetary backgrounds- i'll support affirmative action.

lemme drop this on you:

one of my good friends, who is black, went to west charlotte high school, a predominantly black high school. kid didnt have a dad, mom was an on and off drug user, and he had to work a job to help his family get by. many higher level courses were not offered at his high school in comparison to mine and other charlotte area high schools. the kid pulls a 3.7 GPA and an 1170 SAT score.

i've got another friend- white, pretty rich, solid family background, never had to work a job in his life. this kid went to providence high school, which gets funded up the ass by CMS. kid gets a 3.9 GPA and a 1200 SAT score.

who do you choose?

gimme the black kid who had to deal with all the shit he did- the cycle has to be broken somewhere. i'm sorry, but america fucked over the black people for 300+ years, disjointing the familial structure, CIA using them as guinea pigs w/ drugs, and racism is still out there. trust me, its still out there and its not as minute as people think. yes, strides have been made- BUT- until these kids get out of the cycle that was created by America, affirmative action needs to be carried out.

[Agent Smith]

Originally posted by lj4three
until our public school system is equitable to all races


Affirmative action is a racist policy that is not equitable to all races.


Here is an example:

There are two doctors; one white and one black. One of these doctors may have been moved along through medical school because of their race and not merit.

Which doctor would you choose to operate on your eyes?

[lj4three]

Originally posted by Agent Smith


Affirmative action is a racist policy that is not equitable to all races.


Here is an example:

There are two doctors; one white and one black. One of these doctors may have been moved along through medical school because of their race and not merit.

Which doctor would you choose to operate on your eyes?

thats total bullshit. people who are against affirmative action always pull the non-qualified card out. for someone to operate on your eyes, that person would've had to undergo massive training and certifications, so you're argument holds no water. as a matter of fact, its insulting and insinuates racial frustrations in my opinion. for every 1 case you may quote that supports your outlandish statement, there are thousands of others where minorites arent even given the chance.

and lemme add this, the recent study by the U of Chicago (i think) revealed that people with "white" sounding names get 5 times the number of call-backs from interviews than those with "weird" sounding names. i'm one with a "weird" sounding name.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three
...many higher level courses were not offered at his high school in comparison to mine and other charlotte area high schools. the kid pulls a 3.7 GPA and an 1170 SAT score.

i've got another friend- white, pretty rich, solid family background, never had to work a job in his life. this kid went to providence high school, which gets funded up the ass by CMS. kid gets a 3.9 GPA and a 1200 SAT score.

who do you choose?...



Another vote for school choice. :)

There's nothing wrong with taking into consideration the kid's primary education or lack thereof. But to give someone a leg up based on their skin color is reverse descrimination, and it's wrong.

And a 3.7 GPA and a 1170 SAT will get him into quite a few schools. But it shouldn't shove the other kid out just because he's not black.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by lj4three
until our public school system is equitable to all races and monetary backgrounds- i'll support affirmative action.

lemme drop this on you:

one of my good friends, who is black, went to west charlotte high school, a predominantly black high school. kid didnt have a dad, mom was an on and off drug user, and he had to work a job to help his family get by. many higher level courses were not offered at his high school in comparison to mine and other charlotte area high schools. the kid pulls a 3.7 GPA and an 1170 SAT score.

i've got another friend- white, pretty rich, solid family background, never had to work a job in his life. this kid went to providence high school, which gets funded up the ass by CMS. kid gets a 3.9 GPA and a 1200 SAT score.

who do you choose?

gimme the black kid who had to deal with all the shit he did- the cycle has to be broken somewhere. i'm sorry, but america fucked over the black people for 300+ years, disjointing the familial structure, CIA using them as guinea pigs w/ drugs, and racism is still out there. trust me, its still out there and its not as minute as people think. yes, strides have been made- BUT- until these kids get out of the cycle that was created by America, affirmative action needs to be carried out.

LJ, give the kid with the shitty background some points for his hard work and perseverance, not his melanin count.

Switch the colors of the kids' skins and which would you take? The hardworking disadvantaged white kid or the rich black kid?

[lj4three]

Originally posted by PantherMills


Another vote for school choice. :)

There's nothing wrong with taking into consideration the kid's primary education or lack thereof. But to give someone a leg up based on their skin color is reverse descrimination, and it's wrong.

And a 3.7 GPA and a 1170 SAT will get him into quite a few schools. But it shouldn't shove the other kid out just because he's not black.

i wont support school choice until there is equal funding of schools and a serious effort to revitalize inner city and poor-area schools. the disparity is there, and its the first thing that needs to be fixed. if things ever get level, and scores/behavior/attitude doesnt change, then i'd support vouchers.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut


LJ, give the kid with the shitty background some points for his hard work and perseverance, not his melanin count.

Switch the colors of the kids' skins and which would you take? The hardworking disadvantaged white kid or the rich black kid?

hardworking disadvantaged white kid. without a doubt.

EDIT: lemme add that statistics show that black families are much more unstable than white families- structure wise. with that being said, for every white disadvantaged kid out there, there are probably 7 or 8 black ones. WE- the country- AMERICA- have to correct the travesty we placed on the black people. its our duty. and until it aint corrected, i'll support affirmative action.

[Agent Smith]

Originally posted by lj4three


for someone to operate on your eyes, that person would've had to undergo massive training and certifications, so you're argument holds no water.


Yes, this is an extreme example. My point is that you would question people's abilities if there was a chance that they only made it into a profession because they were "helped" by affirmative action.


Do you accept that affirmative action is a racist policy?

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


i wont support school choice until there is equal funding of schools and a serious effort to revitalize inner city and poor-area schools. the disparity is there, and its the first thing that needs to be fixed. if things ever get level, and scores/behavior/attitude doesnt change, then i'd support vouchers.

This may be for another thread, but school choice will make the underachieving schools fade away through competition. .Competiton will level the playing field. The NEA and the monopolistic school system we have now won't

[lj4three]

Originally posted by Agent Smith



Yes, this is an extreme example. My point is that you would question people's abilities if there was a chance that they only made it into a profession because they were "helped" by affirmative action.


Do you accept that affirmative action is a racist policy?

no. its not. its righting a much more vicious wrong that was perpetuated by us for over 300 years. racial attitudes are ingrained in many minds- and until we can guarantee that blacks have just as much opportunity, we need to continue to do the right thing and break this cycle of hopelessness that many blacks are born into.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by PantherMills


This may be for another thread, but school choice will make the underachieving schools fade away through competition. .Competiton will level the playing field. The NEA and the monopolistic school system we have now won't

i agree with the statement you have made.


with that said- why dont we higher standards and increase funding in our public schools that face current problems?? the public school situation is totally solvable- we just need washington and other subsidiary governing bodies to realize that NO ONE school should have ANY benefit over the other. education should be for everyone, everywhere.

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by Agent Smith






Do you accept that affirmative action is a racist policy?

no lj doesn't because all he knows is the liberal bs he has had crammed down his throat by the education system in this city and the media he pays attention to. once lj gets in the real working world and sees how blind ideology causes much harm, then i believe he will be more realistic in his ideas.

superfluous nut being a liberal at least sees this subject as being rediculous and is honest enough to admit it.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by lj4three


hardworking disadvantaged white kid. without a doubt.

EDIT: lemme add that statistics show that black families are much more unstable than white families- structure wise. with that being said, for every white disadvantaged kid out there, there are probably 7 or 8 black ones. WE- the country- AMERICA- have to correct the travesty we placed on the black people. its our duty. and until it aint corrected, i'll support affirmative action.

<sarcasm>
You realize that by selecting the hardworking, disadvantaged white kid over the rich black kid, you're just perpetuating the vicious cycle of keeping the black man down, right?
</sarcasm>

[Agent Smith]

Affirmative action is a policy based on race. A policy based on race is by definition racism. You are trying to justify "good racism."

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


... WE- the country- AMERICA- have to correct the travesty we placed on the black people. its our duty. and until it aint corrected, i'll support affirmative action.


That's the guilt trip you've got to get over. I've never owned any slaves, nor has anyone else I know. It's like if your daddy commited a crime against my mama and justice was never served, that I should hold you responsible. That's ludicrous.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by WilliamJ


no lj doesn't because all he knows is the liberal bs he has had crammed down his throat by the education system in this city and the media he pays attention to. once lj gets in the real working world and sees how blind ideology causes much harm, then i believe he will be more realistic in his ideas.

superfluous nut being a liberal at least sees this subject as being rediculous and is honest enough to admit it.

i've got a fucking job so dont talk all condescendingly too me. i truly believe in my viewpoint- and basically everyone i know disagrees with me. but, dont denounce my opinion because you dont agree with it. stop being so holier-than-thou.

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by lj4three


no. its not. its righting a much more vicious wrong that was perpetuated by us for over 300 years. racial attitudes are ingrained in many minds- and until we can guarantee that blacks have just as much opportunity, we need to continue to do the right thing and break this cycle of hopelessness that many blacks are born into. that is so much bs that i have neither the time or patience to begin argueing it.

the fucking democrats of the goddam 60s reenslaved the black people in this country under the guise of civil rights. fortunately enough have seen the truth in the above statement and are breaking those bonds.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by PantherMills



That's the guilt trip you've got to get over. I've never owned any slaves, nor has anyone else I know. It's like if your daddy commited a crime against my mama and justice was never served, that I should hold you responsible. That's ludicrous.

i just think thats the selfish approach that many republicans and whites in general believe in. i dont believe in that- i believe in correcting one's past mistakes. yes, you didnt do a damn thing- but america did and we have to pay for our mistakes. its called sleeping with a pure conscious.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


i agree with the statement you have made.


with that said- why dont we higher standards and increase funding in our public schools that face current problems?? the public school situation is totally solvable- we just need washington and other subsidiary governing bodies to realize that NO ONE school should have ANY benefit over the other. education should be for everyone, everywhere.

Lookit, Kmart is fading away because Kmart sucks. People go to Walmart because it's better.

It's really that simple.

[Couz]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut


<sarcasm>
You realize that by selecting the hardworking, disadvantaged white kid over the rich black kid, you're just perpetuating the vicious cycle of keeping the black man down, right?
</sarcasm>


:rofl:

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by lj4three


i've got a fucking job so dont talk all condescendingly too me. i truly believe in my viewpoint- and basically everyone i know disagrees with me. but, dont denounce my opinion because you dont agree with it. stop being so holier-than-thou. i know i am self righteous about my views and i believe them to be wholely correct. the point you are not getting is that you are 20 and those you are argueing are in there 30's and 40's. i admire your tenacity albeit misplaced.

oh and me as a tax paying american do not owe a single black person a fucking thing. don't even get me starting and this travesty bs.

i'm sure you have a job but being a student you still have yet to taste life. :)

[WilliamJ]

one more thing lj, thank god you ain't in charge :)

[lj4three]

Originally posted by WilliamJ
i know i am self righteous about my views and i believe them to be wholely correct. the point you are not getting is that you are 20 and those you are argueing are in there 30's and 40's. i admire your tenacity albeit misplaced.

oh and me as a tax paying american do not owe a single black person a fucking thing. don't even get me starting and this travesty bs.

i'm sure have a job but being a student you still have yet to taste life. :)

nope- YOU dont owe black people a thing. I dont owe black people a thing. BUT- we, together, owe it to blacks that demonstrate the ability to perform at high-levels a chance at improving themselves and their families.

EDIT: william, thank God we debate over a message board. :)

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by lj4three


nope- YOU dont owe black people a thing. I dont owe black people a thing. BUT- we, together, owe it to blacks that demonstrate the ability to perform at high-levels a chance at improving themselves and their families.

EDIT: william, thank God we debate over a message board. :)

they already have these oportunities!!

[Couz]

Example of affirmative action (this is a true story)

The company I work for went through a Dept of Labor review in 94 or 95. The man that did sat across the table from me and said 'I can't find any thing wrong with your personnel practices....etc, etc'. But I won't feel like I'm doing my job unless you raise the pay of two or three of you black employees. The man was of course black.

Now here is a man that stayed in my office for three days, reviewing personnel actions, pay rates, raises, promotion, terminations, hires, etc. He interviewed four of our black employees. He admits that everything is okay but forces us to raise the pay, with back pay, of two or three black employees to keep him from making up a violation.

Now what did these employees do to deserve that raise? By raising the black employees pay because they were black discriminate against the white employees?

Affirmative action is wrong. You cannot create policy to change the way people feel whether they are black or white. I'm not defending racism but affirmative action is wrong.

[Couz]

Inamorata has told me a story before about a married couple in CA that both tested for a fireman position. They took the tests, did the drills, etc. Since they were married they each knew what the others score was. The husband tested better but the wife was offered the job. They needed another female fireman.

I don't know about you but I want the best PERSON fighting the fire at my house, or defending my country, or chasing crooks, etc.

[lj4three]

thats an abuse of affirmative action. yes, AA needs to tweaked and these abuses that i dont stand for should be dealt with.

i dont agree with what happened to you, couz.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


i just think thats the selfish approach that many republicans and whites in general believe in. i dont believe in that- i believe in correcting one's past mistakes. yes, you didnt do a damn thing- but america did and we have to pay for our mistakes. its called sleeping with a pure conscious.

Forgiveness is a powerful thing, LJ.
I've got 2 nephews who come from an inter-racial relationship. I see first hand the difficulties they go through, even today. But you'd have to hog-tie me and shove a tape-recorder up my rear before I would tell either one of them that they can't make it on their own. That they're not good enough because of the color of their skin. And that's what affirmative action does. It doesn't give reparations, it gives repercussions that stack against their self-worth.
It won't be easy, but by God, when they do, they'll know they did it by their own merits and not by some handout because someone said they couldn't do it own their own.

[Couz]

Originally posted by PantherMills

And that's what affirmative action does. It doesn't give reparations, it gives repercussions that stack against their self-worth.
It won't be easy, but by God, when they do, they'll know they did it by their own merits and not by some handout because someone said they couldn't do it own their own.

Hallelujah and pass the ammunition.

[lj4three]

thats a valid point, Mills- i'll take that into consideration.

but for now i've got to get to bed- 8am class. :(

i hope to have been slaughtered by grid and a few others when i check back in. :)

[WilliamJ]

Originally posted by lj4three
thats a valid point, Mills- i'll take that into consideration.

but for now i've got to get to bed- 8am class. :(

i hope to have been slaughtered by grid and a few others when i check back in. :) yes holes have been punched in all your professor's theories and ideals.

[SincereNCinMD]

President Bush used A Action to get into college so what is he complaining about?

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD
President Bush used A Action to get into college so what is he complaining about?

So you're saying skin color is a good qualifier?

[SincereNCinMD]

And why does every associate affirmative action with black people? ALL races use affirmative action.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD
President Bush used A Action to get into college so what is he complaining about?

They had a quota for coke-heads?

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


So you're saying skin color is a good qualifier?

Not saying it is but how you promote diversity if you took affirmative action away?

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut


They had a quota for coke-heads?

The fact his father was alumni and rich because he only had average grades...thats affirmative action because he was probably chosen over someone more qualified.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


Not saying it is but how you promote diversity if you took affirmative action away?

Good question.
I believe that if you instill in our youth that they have the right to pursue their dreams and goals, reguardless of race, that the achievers and leaders of tomorrow will be a very diverse group.
If anyone attempts to derail anyone because of race, let them face the repercussions of the laws that are already in place. This goes for the whites, blacks, purples...you name it.

Just leave race out of it. It has nothing to do with it.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


The fact his father was alumni and rich because he only had average grades...thats affirmative action because he was probably chosen over someone more qualified.

I see nothing wrong with this. Favoritism for alumni and their children is understandable and debatable. Quotas are not.

[LarryD]

Originally posted by Couz
Example of affirmative action (this is a true story)

The company I work for went through a Dept of Labor review in 94 or 95. The man that did sat across the table from me and said 'I can't find any thing wrong with your personnel practices....etc, etc'. But I won't feel like I'm doing my job unless you raise the pay of two or three of you black employees. The man was of course black.

Now here is a man that stayed in my office for three days, reviewing personnel actions, pay rates, raises, promotion, terminations, hires, etc. He interviewed four of our black employees. He admits that everything is okay but forces us to raise the pay, with back pay, of two or three black employees to keep him from making up a violation.

Now what did these employees do to deserve that raise? By raising the black employees pay because they were black discriminate against the white employees?

Affirmative action is wrong. You cannot create policy to change the way people feel whether they are black or white. I'm not defending racism but affirmative action is wrong.

that's not affirmative action. that's illegal. don't blame that on AA.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by LarryD


that's not affirmative action. that's illegal. don't blame that on AA.


Giving someone 20 points for college entrance because he's black is AA. Do you agree that's wrong?

[LarryD]

i was saying that couz' example was wrong.

i'm with lj on this one.

we just have to tough it out for a while until the playing field is evened in people's minds. it's disgusting that we even have to have affirmative action -- have to legilate that minorities get a fair shot.

this is a white dominated society, there's no getting around that. and there's no getting around the fact that people are people, and, more times than not, they'll make decisions that they are comfortable with. if that means a white male (who statistically does most of the promoting) hiring a guy who he perceive "thinks" like him over a woman, a black, an asian, an american indian or a muslim, then that's probably what they'll do.

diversity is good. i wish we had more diversity here on the board.

don't take it as offense. i've seen the good things that affirmative action has done. i've been exposed to different cultures in my workplace. i like that.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


I see nothing wrong with this. Favoritism for alumni and their children is understandable and debatable. Quotas are not.

So since he's the son of an alumni its call favoritism but when a black person is chosen because of their race a quota is being met? So you see nothing wrong with someone who is less qualified getting chosen because their parents are alumni compared to a person being black.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by LarryD

diversity is good. i wish we had more diversity here on the board.


how do all black schools enter into this world view?

affirmative action is a wedge, in my opinion. i'm all for making an even playing field, but you gotta start with inequitties, not skin color. if the argument is that blacks live in bad areas with bad schools, then give special consideration to folks from bad areas with bad schools. if hispanics have a tougher time because english is a second language for them, then give consideration to folks who had to pick up english as a second language. if asians are so damned smart because... damn, why are they so smart?

anyway, you get the idea, i'm sure you can name a bunch of good reasons why you'd want to help somebody get a little boost. use those reasons, not skin color.

[PantherMills]

Race-based quotas are wrong. For any color.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills
Race-based quotas are wrong. For any color.

I agree.

[VOR]

Originally posted by Agent Smith


Affirmative action is a racist policy that is not equitable to all races.


Here is an example:

There are two doctors; one white and one black. One of these doctors may have been moved along through medical school because of their race and not merit.

Which doctor would you choose to operate on your eyes?

How could he be moved along through medical school, how could he pass his state boards? You are trying to use the example of minority hire loading dock worker who is hired to achieve company wide hiring quota (usually to allow the executive ranks to remain lilly white) and fucks off all day and sprucing up the story by making him a doctor.

[PantherPaul]

100% against Affirmative action. While I can sympathize with the way people were raised I would rather choose between 2 blank resumes or transcripts. Giving anything above what the rest of the people are getting isn't fair to the non receiving person. Sure I would like to see the high schools equally funded but why penilize anyone just because of the color of their skin or the thickness of their wallets

[gridfaniker]

Originally posted by lj4three
hardworking disadvantaged white kid. without a doubt.

Thought you said you support affirmative action.

[Boo]

The litigants' seats never belonged to them. That notion, in itself, is racist. And if there's no racial motivation for the suits, why haven't the litigants questioned the special considerations given to applicants of all colors who benefit from U-M's affirmative action policy? Extra points are given to applicants who suffer from economic disadvantage or children and grandchildren of alumni or applicants from underrepresented counties in Michigan.

[Sportsgirl]

Personally, let me say, I was very disappointed in President Bush. Why announce this decision on such a divisive and emotional issue at all? And especially on Dr. Martin Luther King's Birthday? This country is on the brink of war, possibly with two countries. It's a time for us to pull together as a nation. Now we're back at each other's throats again, right after letting the dust settle from the Trent Lott debacle. I think Mr. Bush made a mistake here.

Secondly, I really think there are two issues at stake here, being colorblind and open-eyed. While I think it is preferable that society be colorblind and not discriminate based on race, gender, etc., I think it is also important that we keep our eyes open to diversify. Of course, race has nothing to do with skills, education, or qualifications, but race does matter when it comes to minorities believing they can achieve the American Dream. It is easy for some people to say, "oh, your color doesn't matter," but when I don't see people of color working for you, going to your colleges, getting promotions, etc., it makes me wonder. How can people preach to minorities that they can be successful when they don't see others like themselves making it? Women, blacks, and Latinos, minorities who have been historically discriminated against, deserve the same opportunities that white men have had since this country was established. And, Agent Smith, just because minorities are admitted or hired because of Affirmative Action, it doesn't mean that their work or skills are not as good as whites. I see nothing wrong with recruiting "qualified" women and other minorities. Diversity is good for business.

[PantherPaul]

Diversity is fine but not forced diversity. Why does one group of people get a better chance than another. I know it's niave to think that America is color blind but why can't a person just be judged on their accomplishments (grades, SAT) that and why a business has to hire X number of women, blacks etc is ludicrious. The business owner should be able to hire who he wants. If not hiring X number of women or blacks hurts his business then who suffers? him his business, his desicion.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

OK, try an answer this.

Of my 8 great grandparents:

Full American Indian
Full American Indian
Full American Indian
Full American Indian
1/2 American Indian 1/2 White
1/2 White, 1/4 Black, 1/4 Amerian Indian
Full White
Full white

Everyone of them very poor, poor, or very low middle class.

I look like a dark skinned white person. Race points?

1250 SAT

Only a 2.8 GPA in HS. I was lazy in HS.



Do I get more or less points because my father was the first of any family member to go to college, but only went because he served in the military and went on the GI bill. My Parents never had enough money to pay for, but one semester of my college, I paid the rest. I was the first generation in my family to have indoor plumbing. Nobody in my family has ever owned slaves, and have never heard the 'N' word, or any other derogotory word towards another race from anyone ever in my family. Most all my grandparents best friends were black. Poor Points?

I played football in HS, but since I'm not very big, I was good enough to play rugby in College. Athletic points?

I grew up in an urban setting. Location points?

My parents were married when they had me, stayed married, didn't do drugs/alcohol, and instilled a work ethic and emphasized education, so I'd be better off than anyone else in my family had ever been. Would that be NEGATIVE points? You'd think so by the way people think nowadays. When I was in HS they suspended people, spanked kinds, and FAILED them if they didn't make the grades. People had to EARN a high self esteem.

My parents scraped by, both of them working, and my dad working 2 jobs from the time I was old enough to go to school, + served in the National Guard, when I (and brother and sister) was in school just so they could live somewhere that had decent public schools. Not a slum, but not high class either. Negative points?

Nobody in my family have ever recieved any handout, or welfare, or anything. And have never asked to. Negative points?

Nobody in my family inherited anything from anybody, because nobody's ever gone to the grave without actually owning anything much, if any.

So exactly how many points do I get?


Bottom Line:
Your parent(s) doom you to a shit life if they aren't prepared to raise you properly, not the white man, not slavery 150 years ago, not racism by some, not in the last 25 years.

Society's problem:

Shitty parents, who have shitty kids, who flood the schools, looking for babysitters, and generally don't give a shit about any damn thing, except for getting something for nothing, looking to blame their situation on somebody else, and having that that attitude OK'd and agreed with by the school administrators, and teachers.

Fix that shit, and we wouldn't have to award any damn points to anybody, depending upon the color of their skin, no level some sort of 'playing field' somebody's parents didn't try and level to begin with. And don't give me any rhetoric about 1 parent housholds because of death. One parent housholds have created millionaires, with the right parenting of even one.

That white guilt shit spilled onto some of you white folks, are putting you right where the likes of J.Jackson, and Al Sharpton want you. Ready to open your wallets and pay up for something you had nothing to do with, and by the way, me paying also- and I can guarantee, myself, nor my family benefitted in any way shape or form.

[Boo]

here is the point system

http://www.umich.edu/~mrev/archives/1999/summer/chart.htm

[PantherPaul]

:applause: Folks we have a winner

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by Boo
here is the point system

http://www.umich.edu/~mrev/archives/1999/summer/chart.htm

So should women cry since men get 5+ points for becoming a nurse?

[Boo]

looks to me like if you are a smart kid (GPA wise) from Michigan...you'll get it regardless.

I like that 20 points for being a scholorship athlete.

[Boo]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


So should women cry since men get 5+ points for becoming a nurse?

I beleive that's because there is a nursing shortage. Nursing is a female dominated field...so in order to get more nurses, they have to encourage men to be nurses...hence 5 points. Michigan has a top flight nursing school.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by Boo


I beleive that's because there is a nursing shortage. Nursing is a female dominated field...so in order to get more nurses, they have to encourage men to be nurses...hence 5 points. Michigan has a top flight nursing school.

Yea i know...i just thought it was funny when I saw it.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Oh, I'll also add:

Something my grandad used to say about being discrimnated against cause he was an Injun:

"SOME of those people are just stupid, and they weren't raised too good. Micool, all you have to do to get to where you are happy in life, is to be true to yourself and work hard for what you want. Don't ever let nobody give ya nothin, cause then you'll always be expecting it, and you'll never be happy.":cool:

Mr. Shorty Bowling c.1975

[Boo]

Coach...I'm from MI....with your indian blood, you would have gone to college for free...at least back in '94...don't know if things have changed.

[SincereNCinMD]

Just curious about that point system...do they give 20+ to EVERY minority that applies or they weight in all the grades and points first before using racial identification?

[vpkozel]

Sportsgirl, the reason that Bush made this anouncement was because the Supreme Court is hearing a case to challenge the constitutionality of the Univ. of Michigan's (law school I think) admission policy. The administration was filing a brief in this case (I don't know if this was a required brief or not). The timing of the announcement to MLK's birthday were unfortunate, but not intentional.

[Boo]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD
Just curious about that point system...do they give 20+ to EVERY minority that applies or they weight in all the grades and points first before using racial identification?

good question.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by Boo


good question.

I think its interesting because looking at the chart only 1 options can be assigned for miscellaneous. In other words out of the total number of Minorities what percentage are there for

Socio-economic Disadvantage?
Racial/Ethnic Minority Identification or Education?
Men in Nursing?
Scholarship Athlete?
Provost's Discretion?

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by Boo
Coach...I'm from MI....with your indian blood, you would have gone to college for free...at least back in '94...don't know if things have changed.

That's great Boo. But I don't have an actual ID card that says I'm an official Injun neither. Sure I'd have to because I look white, but I could prove it I suppose, nontheless.
But you missed my point, I don't want any of that. I'd rather know I got where I am, on my own, on MY terms. And I'm happy for that.
BTW, I went to college in the early 80's.

If there were only one place race/gender was an issue, and I use this at work when hiring:

2 candidates for a job. One minority (any race/gender actual 'minority' for the workplace). Both entirely equal in all other aspects BUT race/gender.
Minority status is wildcard in event of tie, simple as that.

[Sportsgirl]

Originally posted by vpkozel
Sportsgirl, the reason that Bush made this anouncement was because the Supreme Court is hearing a case to challenge the constitutionality of the Univ. of Michigan's (law school I think) admission policy. The administration was filing a brief in this case (I don't know if this was a required brief or not). The timing of the announcement to MLK's birthday were unfortunate, but not intentional.

Thanks. Even so, though, why do it all? I understand some of his advisers were not in favor of his decision and that the brief was not required. Now, that's what I heard, but I could be wrong. But, anyway, why not let the Supreme Court do their thing without his interference? I just don't understand this.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin
Oh, I'll also add:

Something my grandad used to say about being discrimnated against cause he was an Injun:

"SOME of those people are just stupid, and they weren't raised too good. Micool, all you have to do to get to where you are happy in life, is to be true to yourself and work hard for what you want. Don't ever let nobody give ya nothin, cause then you'll always be expecting it, and you'll never be happy.":cool:

Mr. Shorty Bowling c.1975

That's it, right there in a nutshell. Micool, everyone on this board could have benefitted having a grandaddy as wise as yours.

Nothing makes me prouder to be an American than to hear stories of individual grit and determination, people who surpassed barriers, and made it to their destination.
And yes, some barriers are higher for some people than for others. That's life. My 8 year old's in a wheel-chair from spina-bifida, do you think his barriers may be higher than others? He, like everyone else, has to learn to say to himself, "if it is to be, it's up to me."

[lj4three]

affirmative action, in its purest form- providing opportunities to those minorities who would otherwise have a MORE difficult time than the majority in finding jobs or getting into school- is integral to cultivating the already growing segment of disillusioned young minorities. what cant be denied is that actions by our government and by America against minorities over our history have contributed greatly to the situation on hand today- fractured families, cycle of drugs, hopelessness. NOT everybody is 100% self-sufficient in leading their life, and for those individuals who faced the most mistreatment (african americans), there needs to be a rebuilding phase and a sense of hope that YES- i can make it. much rebuilding has gone on, but the cycle is not complete. until we can 100% say that societal inequities that were caused by our mistakes have been removed, then we cant do away with affirmative action.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


That's it, right there in a nutshell. Micool, everyone on this board could have benefitted having a grandaddy as wise as yours.

Nothing makes me prouder to be an American than to hear stories of individual grit and determination, people who surpassed barriers, and made it to their destination.
And yes, some barriers are higher for some people than for others. That's life. My 8 year old's in a wheel-chair from spina-bifida, do you think his barriers may be higher than others? He, like everyone else, has to learn to say to himself, "if it is to be, it's up to me."

So what if your son is denied because of the wheel-chair?

[PantherPaul]

Originally posted by lj4three
until we can 100% say that societal inequities that were caused by our mistakes have been removed, then we cant do away with affirmative action.

You know as well as anyone that day will never come to pass. There will always be assholes that look down on some group of people be they women, minorities, handicaps whatever. Affirmative action is nothing more than a crutch for people to blame why they don't have what they want and are too lazy to go out and get it.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by PantherPaul


You know as well as anyone that day will never come to pass. There will always be assholes that look down on some group of people be they women, minorities, handicaps whatever. Affirmative action is nothing more than a crutch for people to blame why they don't have what they want and are too lazy to go out and get it.

if it wasnt for AA, i doubt my friend who i mentioned in an earlier post, would've gotten into chapel hill. BUT- he's currently pulling a 3.5 (4.0 major) GPA in biology. seems like he's not "bringing down" the quality of students- instead, he brings diversity, and a quality mind to the table. and also, he's getting a chance that he may never have had if it werent for AA.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by PantherPaul


You know as well as anyone that day will never come to pass. There will always be assholes that look down on some group of people be they women, minorities, handicaps whatever. Affirmative action is nothing more than a crutch for people to blame why they don't have what they want and are too lazy to go out and get it.

And those people having chilren they don't bust their asses for to make it better for THEM.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


So what if your son is denied because of the wheel-chair?

So what if someone's denied because he's black? It's wrong.

Look, all I'm saying is don't give my kid something because he's in the wheelchair, give it to him because he derserved it.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


if it wasnt for AA, i doubt my friend who i mentioned in an earlier post, would've gotten into chapel hill. BUT- he's currently pulling a 3.5 (4.0 major) GPA in biology. seems like he's not "bringing down" the quality of students- instead, he brings diversity, and a quality mind to the table. and also, he's getting a chance that he may never have had if it werent for AA.

If he weeded out someone who was more qualified because of his skin color alone, he shouldn't be there.

[Agent Smith]

Originally posted by Sportsgirl
And, Agent Smith, just because minorities are admitted or hired because of Affirmative Action, it doesn't mean that their work or skills are not as good as whites.


Where did I say this?

Affirmative action gives preference based on race, not merit. If someone is a better candidate for a job because of race, that is racism.

If someone is not qualified for job, but then suddenly is because of race, how can you logically say they are now qualified.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


So what if someone's denied because he's black? It's wrong.

Look, all I'm saying is don't give my kid something because he's in the wheelchair, give it to him because he derserved it.

I didn't say give them something because he's in a wheel chair. And if he did get it because of the wheel chair how can you prove that wasn't the deciding factor?

[lj4three]

Originally posted by Agent Smith


Where did I say this?

Affirmative action gives preference based on race, not merit. If someone is a better candidate for a job because of race, that is racism.

If someone is not qualified for job, but then suddenly is because of race, how can you logically say they are now qualified.

i've never heard of an illiterate black woman being appointed to a librarian position.

what you stated above is racism- AA does not say hire minorities b/c they are minorities. AA says that if they are qualifed and are minority, theres some value there and should be given proper consideration to promote diversity.

there are abuses of the AA system- which i dont agree with.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


... And if he did get it because of the wheel chair how can you prove that wasn't the deciding factor?


And that's exactly why those of us in the minority who have worked our asses off, and our parents too, don't want everyone in the majority to think that there was even the possibility we got to where we are because of our race, and not our work/merit.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


I didn't say give them something because he's in a wheel chair. And if he did get it because of the wheel chair how can you prove that wasn't the deciding factor?



Since we're talking about entrance policies to universities, I'll stick to that premise.

On the enrollment form, they shouldn't ask if he's in a chair. Just like they shouldn't ask the color of his skin. To me, it shouldn't be a factor to consider.

Let's say someone gets in ahead of you and you are more qualified, based on their qualifications. At this point, you have a valid arguement based on your merits and nothing else.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin



And that's exactly why those of us in the minority who have worked our asses off, and our parents too, don't want everyone in the majority to think that there was even the possibility we got to where we are because of our race, and not our work/merit.

so how can people cry and say a he was hired "because he's black" or he got into school because he's black?

[lj4three]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin



And that's exactly why those of us in the minority who have worked our asses off, and our parents too, don't want everyone in the majority to think that there was even the possibility we got to where we are because of our race, and not our work/merit.

micool- just to let you know. I'll personally never want to be appointed b/c of the color of my skin- i want to be decided by my merits and merits alone.

however, arguments against AA would be valid if we lived in an idealistic society- we dont. people are not always judged by their merits alone, they are judged by their names, their accents, their skin color, their religion, etc. i dont see a better remedy than AA that has been proposed to address the issues. idealistically, you're right micool- but this isnt a black-white issue, its a lot more gray.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


so how can people cry and say a he was hired "because he's black" or he got into school because he's black?

Because that's what, in certain instances, AA does.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by lj4three



....there are ______ abuses of the AA system- which i dont agree with.

You left out three very important words there, LJ. It's the words: MANY, MANY, MANY. It's not like they are few and far between.
I've worked for the Gumment for 16 years, it happens everyday.
It causes more problems, than it actually fixes. That's the real world, not the one your professors have taught you about, the short time you have been on the planet.
BTW, did you or your parents get where they/you are because of AA?

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


Because that's what, in certain instances, AA does.

proven how?

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


...people are not always judged by their merits alone, they are judged by their names, their accents, their skin color, their religion, etc. i dont see a better remedy than AA ...


Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


so how can people cry and say a he was hired "because he's black" or he got into school because he's black?

Why?
Because of AA.
Do away with it, and nobody can say just that.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin


You left out three very important words there, LJ. It's the words: MANY, MANY, MANY. It's not like they are few and far between.
I've worked for the Gumment for 16 years, it happens everyday.
It causes more problems, than it actually fixes. That's the real world, not the one your professors have taught you about, the short time you have been on the planet.
BTW, did you or your parents get where they/you are because of AA?

why do you guys think my professors have taught me about AA?? i've never taken a philosophy/political science/current events class in college- i'm a computer science major damn it!! :)

the only course i've taken that has anything to do with politics is european history.

my parents got where they are by themselves- my dad got his mechanical engineering degree in bangalre university and moved to DC in 1976, got a job at becktel, and then moved to charlotte in '79 and landed a job at duke power. he showed up an hour before work and left an hour after, everyday- didnt take sick leave nor any holidays for his 3 years there. he opened a photo-developing shop that failed, and then opened a graphics shop which he's run for over 15 years. its all his sweat and blood.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


proven how?


By giving 20 points to a prospective college student, based exclusively on their skin color.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills




Since we're talking about entrance policies to universities, I'll stick to that premise.

On the enrollment form, they shouldn't ask if he's in a chair. Just like they shouldn't ask the color of his skin. To me, it shouldn't be a factor to consider.

Let's say someone gets in ahead of you and you are more qualified, based on their qualifications. At this point, you have a valid arguement based on your merits and nothing else.

Since we sticking with entrance policies how can it be proven that the minority wasn't chosen or given points for......

Socio-economic Disadvantage?
Men in Nursing?
Scholarship Athlete?
Provost's Discretion?

In other words racial background account for how many % points of total minorities who were rewarded with it?

[lj4three]

Originally posted by PantherMills



Two wrongs don't make a right.

since we DONT live in an idealistic world- what is an actual remedy?

[builder]

Originally posted by Agent Smith
Affirmative action is a policy based on race. A policy based on race is by definition racism. You are trying to justify "good racism."

lj...you're a minority. So am I. Of course, I happen to be a white minority. But I can't see giving anyone anything because they're a fucking queer. You'd probably agree. Skin color has nothing to do with anything except what we make of it. Leave that shit off the applications and see what happens.

Yeah yeah...America is unfair to the blacks and other minorities. Well, we're not a socialist country (yet) and until that day, it's gonna be that way. Now...go stand in line for 6 hours for your 3 squares of toilet paper.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by lj4three


>>my parents got where they are by themselves- my dad got his mechanical engineering degree in bangalre university and moved to DC in 1976, got a job at becktel, and then moved to charlotte in '79 and landed a job at duke power. he showed up an hour before work and left an hour after, everyday- didnt take sick leave nor any holidays for his 3 years there. he opened a photo-developing shop that failed, and then opened a graphics shop which he's run for over 15 years. its all his sweat and blood.

And that is very commendable, LJ. I wasn't implying, just asking.
I'm proud of your parents, and you for doing just that.
BTW, my dad worked (still does occasionally) for Becktel, and CP&L, Duke Power, and TVA accordingly. He's a supervisor for safety requirements for all those when they shut down plants for refueling/retooling.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin


And that is very commendable, LJ. I wasn't implying, just asking.
I'm proud of your parents, and you for doing just that.
BTW, my dad worked (still does occasionally) for Becktel, and CP&L, Duke Power, and TVA accordingly. He's a supervisor for safety requirements for all those when they shut down plants for refueling/retooling.

my fault- i took it the wrong way. :)


Let me add that thinking over AA- yes, it is racisim, in a sense b/c its making race a determining factor in some appointments (thanks for pounding that in my head blder). BUT- i dont see anyother remedy- do you guys?

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


why do you guys think my professors have taught me about AA?? i've never taken a philosophy/political science/current events class in college- i'm a computer science major damn it!! :)

the only course i've taken that has anything to do with politics is european history.

my parents got where they are by themselves- my dad got his mechanical engineering degree in bangalre university and moved to DC in 1976, got a job at becktel, and then moved to charlotte in '79 and landed a job at duke power. he showed up an hour before work and left an hour after, everyday- didnt take sick leave nor any holidays for his 3 years there. he opened a photo-developing shop that failed, and then opened a graphics shop which he's run for over 15 years. its all his sweat and blood.


Think a little about this, LJ, because I think you and I can find alot of common ground on this.

Look at your Dad. He's not perfect. He's made mistakes. Through his sweat and blood, he's provided for his family and he has a kid who's bettering himself and going to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. When you look back over the positives of his life, do you have pride in his accomplishment of making it own his own merits? Do you think his barriers may have been higher than some others? I bet they were.
Now if these things were handed to him based on his skin color, do you see where things would be different?

I believe we need to strive for diversity. Descrimination is wrong, just don't fight it with descrimination.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by builder


lj...you're a minority. So am I. Of course, I happen to be a white minority. But I can't see giving anyone anything because they're a fucking queer. You'd probably agree. Skin color has nothing to do with anything except what we make of it. Leave that shit off the applications and see what happens.

Yeah yeah...America is unfair to the blacks and other minorities. Well, we're not a socialist country (yet) and until that day, it's gonna be that way. Now...go stand in line for 6 hours for your 3 squares of toilet paper.

you're right. but- i just cant come to grips with not trying to help out those individuals who's childhoods have been fucked up due to the america's policy's 40 years ago- once a family or society is fractured, it takes a lot of work to put it back together. me and my family never had to experience that.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

>>my fault- i took it the wrong way.

No problem, we might dissagree on things, but I can tell your heart is in the right place, you WANT a better society, and you seem very intelligent.

>>Let me add that thinking over AA- yes, it is racisim, in a sense b/c its making race a determining factor in some appointments (thanks for pounding that in my head blder). BUT- i dont see anyother remedy- do you guys?

Now see, that's what debating like this is all about. I can see some of your points, you can see some of mine. Maybe we'll all figure it out one day.;)

[barracuda]

I going to read this thread tonight, its toooo long to read at work, but, to get to the original point, this merit system is flawed. I believe I read somewhere that the essay they write for admission is only worth 1 point where other criteria like mentioned (alumni, race etc.) are worth a substantial amount more.If this point has already been brought up sorry.

[builder]

Originally posted by lj4three
i just cant come to grips with not trying to help out those individuals who's childhoods have been fucked up due to the america's policy's 40 years ago- once a family or society is fractured, it takes a lot of work to put it back together.

Jesus Fucking Christ....IT'S NOT THE 1950's ANYMORE PEOPLE! Today's society is a hell of a lot different from the 50's. You can't expect to find stay at home mothers and working fathers in every home. If you did, you're probably find Rosa Parks sitting in the back of the bus too. I think as a country we have blown this (race bullshit) way out of proportion and some people are using this as an advantage to get something they not only did not earn, but don't deserve. As a future business owner, I would never consider someone's race as a reason to give or deny a job. I need someone who can do the work and get it done on time with as little fuss from me as possible. Hell, I'd hire a blue man with 16 face piercings if he could do the work asked.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


you're right. but- i just cant come to grips with not trying to help out those individuals who's childhoods have been fucked up due to the america's policy's 40 years ago- once a family or society is fractured, it takes a lot of work to put it back together. me and my family never had to experience that.

And at your age, that's exactly where you should be. You're truly grappling with these issues and your only agenda is to find an answer. I commend you for that.

[lj4three]

Originally posted by builder


Jesus Fucking Christ....IT'S NOT THE 1950's ANYMORE PEOPLE! Today's society is a hell of a lot different from the 50's. You can't expect to find stay at home mothers and working fathers in every home. If you did, you're probably find Rosa Parks sitting in the back of the bus too. I think as a country we have blown this (race bullshit) way out of proportion and some people are using this as an advantage to get something they not only did not earn, but don't deserve. As a future business owner, I would never consider someone's race as a reason to give or deny a job. I need someone who can do the work and get it done on time with as little fuss from me as possible. Hell, I'd hire a blue man with 16 face piercings if he could do the work asked.

That makes a whole lot of sense, actually.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

>>BUT- i dont see anyother remedy- do you guys?

I don't have a remedy right off the top of my head. Wish there was one other than reverse discimination, but discrimination is discrimination, and life ain't fair.

When you live in the wilderness, and you ain't a good hunter, you gonna be eatin grass. You ain't a good farmer, or a good hunter, you gonna starve. Somebody comes along and gives a chunk of wilderbeast today to fill your belly, you live to starve tomorrow.

My remedy is to work hard, teach my kids how to hunt anf farm, and they won't need anybody to put them at the head of the line.
Hopefully they'll be there, showing others how to do the same.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


Since we sticking with entrance policies how can it be proven that the minority wasn't chosen or given points for......

Socio-economic Disadvantage?
Men in Nursing?
Scholarship Athlete?
Provost's Discretion?

In other words racial background account for how many % points of total minorities who were rewarded with it?

None of these you've mentioned, and adding alumni favoritism as well, do not conflict with the 14th ammendment of the constitution. Raced based criteria does.
Descrimination in and of itself is not bad. It helps football coaches choose the best athlete when they descriminate on athletic ability. It helps law schools choose the best candidates for legal training when they descriminate on intellectual ability.

It doesn't help anyone to descriminate against skin color and it violates the 14th ammendment as well. This was the reason for the brief being filed by President Bush.

[LarryD]

Originally posted by PantherMills
Race-based quotas are wrong. For any color.

that's easy for someone in the majority to say because it would infringe upon your majority status -- even just a smidgen.

[Boo]

Under existing law, such a challenge would be doomed to fail.

Challenges to AA are premised on two sources of law: the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment. The 1964 Act only applies to discrimination in certain specified categories, the most important of which is race; legacy status or the lack thereof is not one of those categories. Thus, a challenge to legacy admissions would have to be premised on Equal Protection arguments.

Under Supreme Court precedent, the Equal Protection clause is applied using different tests depending on the subject matter under challenge. For certain fundamental rights (voting, ballot access, travel) and for "suspect classifications" -- e.g., race or alienage -- courts apply the strict scrutiny test. This requires that the government show that whatever is being challenged is narrowly tailored to satisfy a compelling government interest.

Then there is an intermediate scrutiny test for "quasi-suspect" classifications such as gender, which is inapplicable here.

And then there's the catch-all rational basis test, which requires that the plaintiff prove that the act his is challenging has "no rational basis." This is, as you can imagine, a very difficult burden to meet. A state college could easily defeat a challenge by saying "legacy applications are beneficial to the school as a whole because they aid in fund-raising." Boom, rational basis test met.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


None of these you've mentioned, and adding alumni favoritism as well, do not conflict with the 14th ammendment of the constitution. Raced based criteria does.
Descrimination in and of itself is not bad. It helps football coaches choose the best athlete when they descriminate on athletic ability. It helps law schools choose the best candidates for legal training when they descriminate on intellectual ability.

It doesn't help anyone to descriminate against skin color and it violates the 14th ammendment as well. This was the reason for the brief being filed by President Bush.

My point is how are they going to prove that the minority student didn't get one of those 4 factors I mentioned or any of the 5 factors at all?

[Sportsgirl]

Even if race is removed as a factor, people still find ways to discriminate. So much for being colorblind. Read on below.


from CNN

Study: It helps to have a 'white' name
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 Posted: 8:07 PM EST (0107 GMT)


CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- It helps to have a white-sounding first name when looking for work, a new study has found.

Resumes with white-sounding first names elicited 50 percent more responses than ones with black-sounding names, according to a study by professors at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

The professors sent about 5,000 resumes in response to want ads in The Boston Globe and Chicago Tribune. They found that the "white" applicants they created received one response -- a call, letter or e-mail -- for every 10 resumes mailed, while "black" applicants with equal credentials received one response for every 15 resumes sent.

The study authors, including University of Chicago associate professor of economics Marianne Bertrand, said the results can solely be attributed to name manipulation.

"Our results so far suggest that there is a substantial amount of discrimination in the job recruiting process," they wrote.

The professors analyzed birth certificates in coming up with what names to use. The white names included Neil, Brett, Greg, Emily, Anne and Jill. Some of the black names used were Tamika, Ebony, Aisha, Rasheed, Kareem and Tyrone.

Companies that purported to be equal opportunity employers were no more likely to respond to black resumes than other businesses, the study found.

Carolyn Nordstrom, president of Chicago United, a group that seeks to increase corporate diversity, said the study shows the need to educate those that make hiring decisions.

"We like to believe that this has changed, but this is evidence that it hasn't," she said.

[gridfaniker]

Originally posted by Sportsgirl
Even if race is removed as a factor, people still find ways to discriminate. So much for being colorblind. Read on below.


from CNN

Study: It helps to have a 'white' name
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 Posted: 8:07 PM EST (0107 GMT)


CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- It helps to have a white-sounding first name when looking for work, a new study has found.

Resumes with white-sounding first names elicited 50 percent more responses than ones with black-sounding names, according to a study by professors at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

The professors sent about 5,000 resumes in response to want ads in The Boston Globe and Chicago Tribune. They found that the "white" applicants they created received one response -- a call, letter or e-mail -- for every 10 resumes mailed, while "black" applicants with equal credentials received one response for every 15 resumes sent.

The study authors, including University of Chicago associate professor of economics Marianne Bertrand, said the results can solely be attributed to name manipulation.

"Our results so far suggest that there is a substantial amount of discrimination in the job recruiting process," they wrote.

The professors analyzed birth certificates in coming up with what names to use. The white names included Neil, Brett, Greg, Emily, Anne and Jill. Some of the black names used were Tamika, Ebony, Aisha, Rasheed, Kareem and Tyrone.

Companies that purported to be equal opportunity employers were no more likely to respond to black resumes than other businesses, the study found.

Carolyn Nordstrom, president of Chicago United, a group that seeks to increase corporate diversity, said the study shows the need to educate those that make hiring decisions.

"We like to believe that this has changed, but this is evidence that it hasn't," she said.

Black people don't still name boys Tyrone do they? Names, black or white, become obsolete over time. You don't see too many girls named Agnes or Hazel or Edith, or boys named Herman, Stanley or Albert. What are some black names that you aren't seeing much of anymore? I'd bet Tyrone is one of the them. That and Stymie.

[slydevl]

Just saw that Condoleeza Rice, a black woman, played a huge part in developing the administrations stand against AA in this particular case. Does that affect anyone's opinion about the stand?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3752-2003Jan16.html

[Rumpeltiltspin]

It could be said that a lot of those names that are insinuatedly not 'white' sounding, could be foreign.

That doesn't make it right, just an observation that they are quick to make it a black/white thing.
Like I said in a another post, what if my parents hada named me Squanto, instead of Micool, and I was applying to the job over the phone or by mail?

Maybe those companies are 'namists'.

Note to parents, nae your kids 'white' names, and your kids might not be disriminated against.




I'm just playing 'devil's advocate' here. Racism in any case is wrong.

[Boo]

is Howard University racist? How about Grambling?

[SincereNCinMD]

2001 racial breakdown of students at the University of Michigan.

Percent of undergraduate enrollment by race/ethnicity
Non-resident alien 4.4%
Black non-Hispanic 7.8%
American Indian or Alaskan Native 0.7%
Asian or Pacific Islander 12.3%
Hispanic 4.2%
White non-Hispanic 64.1%
Race-ethnicity unknown 6.5%

UM has a population of 38,000 students
Undergrad enrollment 24,547

Honestly this question is for anyone...do you REALLY believe that if they took away the race thing that minority percentages would rise for this school?

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by Boo
is Howard University racist? How about Grambling?

Believe it or not whites get scholarships to these school because they are minorities.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by LarryD


that's easy for someone in the majority to say because it would infringe upon your majority status -- even just a smidgen.

Nope. SincereNCinMD said that, "Believe it or not whites get scholarships to these school because they are minorities."

And that's wrong. A colorblind society cannot exist until we keep striving forward to become a colorblind society.

If a majority of indians want to get together and go to a school. Let them. If a majority of blacks want to, let them. If whites do, let them. But don't deny them because of skin color, nor should you admit them because of it.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


My point is how are they going to prove that the minority student didn't get one of those 4 factors I mentioned or any of the 5 factors at all?

To me, it doesn't matter. Take race out of the equation and there won't be any question if they got there based on race. The others are permissable descriminations.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Everyone, disciminate in some way or another?
Yep, everone disciminates in some way or another.
To expect it to completely stop is delusional utopianism.

Afterall Sportsgirl, that ain't no white lady in your avatar.
Couldn't one say that you was discriminatory in some fashion?
That pic is not a pic of your kid, or yourself, but a BLack woman.
There ain't a white woman good enough to be used as your avatar?


Now I don't mean any of that sportsgirl, but I see many people quick to judge whites/blacks in just that sort of manner. EVERY damn thing is about race to some people, white AND black AND Injun, and I feel it's making things worse. Sometimes it gets to a point that pushing the envlope just so far, before it starts going backward. And I feel it's getting to that point now. And it scares me.

And sportsgirl, I wasn't insinuating that you do this at all, just making a point.

[SincereNCinMD]

Only way you're going to have a color-blind society is for everyone to be completely blind.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD
Only way you're going to have a color-blind society is for everyone to be completely blind.

That's saying it's OK to be a racist because racism exists and I disagree.

[SincereNCinMD]

Racism will never die. Even though people may never speak the words the thinking alone is just as bad.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD
Racism will never die. Even though people may never speak the words the thinking alone is just as bad.

I agree. Wholeheartedly. I think we may agree more than you realize.
The 14th ammendment is there to outlaw descrimination based on race. AA is doing just that, descriminating based on race. And because racism exists, doesn't mean there shouldn't be efforts to abolish it when it comes to the eligibility for a job, college enrollment, etc.

[LarryD]

i think we need a definition of racism.

i think it can -- and will -- die. i don't want a colorblind society. i think our differences make us more interesting, on the whole.

to me, racism is a person of one race thinking they are superior to another solely ased upon the color of their skin.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by LarryD
i think we need a definition of racism.

i think it can -- and will -- die. i don't want a colorblind society. i think our differences make us more interesting, on the whole.

to me, racism is a person of one race thinking they are superior to another solely ased upon the color of their skin.

That is exactly right, Larry, but you can also add that racism is ,
"the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability"

Racism is also "Discrimination or prejudice based on race."

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by LarryD
i think we need a definition of racism.

...to me, racism is a person of one race thinking they are superior to another solely ased upon the color of their skin.

Other definitions, by todays standards:

Preferential treatment based on race.

Hatred of a particular race for any reason, including the past actions taken by a some of a particular race's ancestors.

[PantherPaul]

Originally posted by lj4three


he's getting a chance that he may never have had if it werent for AA.

You are assuming your friend WOULDN't have gotten in except for AA. Don't think much of him do you

[PantherPaul]

Originally posted by lj4three


you're right. but- i just cant come to grips with not trying to help out those individuals who's childhoods have been fucked up due to the america's policy's 40 years ago- once a family or society is fractured, it takes a lot of work to put it back together. me and my family never had to experience that.

AA will not fix poor parenting. Parents of today have a lot more going for them to help raise better kids IF the parents take advantage of these. Too many parents look at schools (high school and elementary schools) as day care. As soon as the parents get home they park their ass's in front of tube with kids and think it's quality time. Too often the parent is looking to blame when they don't turn out a good kid. Although spending 24/7 time with kid doesn't guarentee well adjusted kids either

[lj4three]

Originally posted by PantherPaul


You are assuming your friend WOULDN't have gotten in except for AA. Don't think much of him do you

he's my friend, enough said.. SAT requirements are 1200+ i believe at chapel hill. he got an 1170. he got in. those are the facts.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Two of my best employees are Black. They are both friends and coworkers. They came from terrible backgrounds, yet stayed in school, worked hard, and made something of themselves without any AA help, whatsoever. They think AA is wrong. They are both very conservative. We just were talking about this stuff, "Funny", one says, "it's hard being a conservative black man, other blacks say I've turned white. And that's just the stupidest stuff I've ever heard."
The other guy says, "Yeah, that's a fact. I didn't realize speaking correct english was actually a white thing."
I just smiled and thanked them for being great empoyees.

They both asked me if they were hired because of AA. I truthfully told them "no." They both stood here in my office and said they'd have quit had I said yes.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by lj4three


he's my friend, enough said.. SAT requirements are 1200+ i believe at chapel hill. he got an 1170. he got in. those are the facts.

1200 required for in-state?...I knew plenty of people who got in with less than that...some didn't even crack 1000

[Sportsgirl]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin
Afterall Sportsgirl, that ain't no white lady in your avatar.
Couldn't one say that you was discriminatory in some fashion?
That pic is not a pic of your kid, or yourself, but a BLack woman.
There ain't a white woman good enough to be used as your avatar?

And sportsgirl, I wasn't insinuating that you do this at all, just
making a point.

I don't think that's a good analogy. What you are describing is personal taste, not discrimination. The fact that Whitney Houston, featured in my avatar, is a matter of my personal musical taste. She is one of my favorite singers who happens to be black. I don't get your point.

And to Boo, FYI, there are at least 2-3 historically black colleges that over the years have a majority white student body, Bluefield State, West Virginia State College is 87 percent white, and Lincoln University in Missouri is 67 percent white. Kentucky State University is 42 percent white.

White enrollment in HBCs is on the rise, mostly because whites are finding the tuition is cheaper and there is major recruitment to all races. And, yes, whites do attend on scholarships, and a lot of them admit that they truly value the cultural experience of attending these historic institutions. What about all-female colleges, military colleges, and religious universities? Do you want to do away with them, too?

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by Sportsgirl


I don't think that's a good analogy. What you are describing is personal taste, not discrimination. The fact that Whitney Houston, featured in my avatar, is a matter of my personal musical taste. She is one of my favorite singers who happens to be black. I don't get your point.



Sorry you don't get it.

I'm saying there are those that put 'racism' into everything, that's all s-girl. And I didn't neccessarily mean you. I recognize there is a difference between personal preferrence, and racism. But some people don't, blacks, whites, and injuns.

Now (hope not ) to really piss you off:
So Whitney is a great singer, I agree. Do you think she's a good person, a good parent, and a good judge of character in men?
Do you give her a pass at that, or overlook her shortcomings in that area because she's black, or because you just like her music?
Am I, in fact a racist because I think she is not? Do I not give her the same pass you do, because I'm not 100% Black?

Well see, another point Black folks like the Jacksons and Sharptons, who look at everything through racist eye's (really because it's lucrative), would be asking white folks insinuating questions such as I'm asking you right now. I'm not picking on you, but you said we all discriminate, throwing 'stats' from a 'report' out there when it's against "white" companies, and some jump right on the bandwagon. But let law enforcement, or whatever, arrest more blacks with crimes, in a high back populated neighborhood- while showing stats to prove their points, and some seem to easily dissmiss them, or say 'you can't lump all blacks together'-while at the same lumping all whites, or 'white' companies together based on some 'research'.
It's just amazing a lot of people are quick to use stats when they favor something they agree with, yet dissmiss others when it's against them, or THEIR own race.
And again S-girl I'm not saying you do, just making the point that almost everyone does, to a certain extent.

Damn, she's gonna rip me a new one for saying that....


Hey, them white peoples lumped all us heathen Injuns together. But I fogive them, and the white part of too.;)

[lj4three]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


1200 required for in-state?...I knew plenty of people who got in with less than that...some didn't even crack 1000

nope. i know many people that winded up going to UNCC w/ 1200ish SAT scores that couldnt get into Chapel Hill.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


nope. i know many people that winded up going to UNCC w/ 1200ish SAT scores that couldnt get into Chapel Hill.

And as they sit in classes in Charlotte, they know there's a guy in CH who got in with a score of 1170. With everything else being equal, did they deserve to not go to the school of their choice because of skin color?
LJ, there's answers out there, but this ain't it.

[Sportsgirl]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin


Sorry you don't get it.

I'm saying there are those that put 'racism' into everything, that's all s-girl. And I didn't mean you. I recognize there is a difference between personal preferrence, and racism. But some people don't, blacks, whites, and injuns.

Now (hope not ) to really piss you off:
So Whitney is a great singer, I agree. Do you think she's a good person, a good parent, and a good judge of character in men?
Do you give her a pass at that, or overlook her shortcomings in that area because she's black, or because you just like her music?

Damn, she's gonna rip me a new one for saying that....
I understand your frustration with the folks who make excuses and whine all the time, but you can't deny that racism is indeed alive and well in America today. And I, for one, have become so frustrated with having to prove, especially here in the South, that my work and credentials are just legit as other white applicants, only to be at the bottom of the pay scale totem pole below white women with the same experience for the same job.

IMHO, Coach, opposition to Affirmative Action is about the fear that some whites have of losing power. They think significant gains by minorities pose a threat to the majority in control. But I simply don't see that since the overwhelming majority of students selected are still white and the percentage of minority applicants accepted is very low in the cases I've heard about. If they do away with race, then they also should do away with points for alumni relatives, military service, etc.

Now, about Whitney Houston. I have been a fan of hers for many years. I've bought her albums, seen her in concert, watched her videos - been one of her biggest fans because, first, the girl has a wonderful voice, I dig her tunes, and she's glamorous - an all-around black female superstar. She's the queen of R&B. Having said that, do I think she walks on water? Of course not. Right now, I think Whitney is in denial about her drug problem and about her wreck of a marriage. I'm hoping she gets help and leaves Bobby Brown. But, in the meantime, I'm still her fan.

I listen to a lot of white pop, country, rock, and jazz artists and groups, whom I love just the same, like Amy Grant, Faith Hill, Hall & Oates, the Bee Gees, Billy Joel, Elton John, the Cars, Paul McCartney, Steppenwolf, Steely Dan, Bob James, Chicago, Fleetwood Mac, the Eagles, and many, many more. I like a variety of music (mostly from the 70s and 80s), just like I like a variety of people.:)

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Thanks S-girl, for not laying into me, whew!

I edited what I said, I was trying to make a point about that article you quoted, not jumping on you, and I'm sorry for that.

You are right about Whitney, it's a shame.

Also, I know the Als and Jessies don't 'speak' for you, just making a point in same post.

And about the power thing, possibly, but you can't deny that minorities like myself and others who have gotten to where they are, not by AA, don't like AA for other reasons, don't have any 'power' to give up. The only 'power' I have is to raise my kids with high standards for them.

My opinion:

Alumi points- I agree, no points should be given. If most of the Alumni are white, then white Alumnus kids have an unfair advantage there, perpetuating non-'diversity'. However, many alumni donate a lot of money to their schools, and that may be why that is a factor.

Military, well I can't see that as a pob to give points there. Anybody who has seved our country in that aspect, should get some points for it.

Athletics? Well I can see points there because someone who is involved greatly in athletics + academic merits, is achived thru VERY hard work. That, and athletics actually makes money for Colleges, thus makeing tuition costs lower for everyone else.
Again the money factor, right or wrong.

Poor backgrown/area from? Points here too.

Color of skin? Nope. Unless it is the last tiebreaker.

[Sportsgirl]

Originally posted by Rumpeltiltspin
Thanks S-girl, for not laying into me, whew!

And about the power thing, possibly, but you can't deny that minorities like myself and others who have gotten to where they are, not by AA, don't like AA for other reasons, don't have any 'power' to give up. The only 'power' I have is to raise my kids with high standards for them.

My opinion:

Alumi points- I agree, no points should be given. If most of the Alumni are white, then white Alumnus kids have an unfair advantage there, perpetuating non-'diversity'. However, many alumni donate a lot of money to their schools, and that may be why that is a factor.

Athletics? Well I can see points there because someone who is involved greatly in athletics + academic merits, is achived thru VERY hard work. That, and athletics actually makes money for Colleges, thus makeing tuition costs lower for everyone else.
Again the money factor, right or wrong.

No problem, Coach. This has been a very interesting and enlightening discussion, to say the least.;)

Basically, what you mentioned above proves my point about power. $$$ = power. So, it is not necessarily merit that people get accepted into college. It's the rich and the powerful and the bold and the beautiful that seem to always get ahead. I guess that what's it's really all about. Who's to say there weren't some white students admitted to U. of Michigan that weren't qualified? Unfortunately, we'll never know, but I see no need to do away with Affirmative Action completely. It would be like throwing the baby out with the bath.

It's time for me to go. I'll be back next week after I return from Atlanta.

This was a good discussion.:)

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Have a good weekend, Sportsgirl.:)

[PantherPaul]

Hell I had a 1110 and didn't get in to UNC. Black man must have gotten my spot

[vpkozel]

Originally posted by Sportsgirl


Thanks. Even so, though, why do it all? I understand some of his advisers were not in favor of his decision and that the brief was not required. Now, that's what I heard, but I could be wrong. But, anyway, why not let the Supreme Court do their thing without his interference? I just don't understand this.

I agree that if wasn't required then he should have stayed out of it.

[Rumpeltiltspin]

Originally posted by vpkozel


I agree that if wasn't required then he should have stayed out of it.

Form what I've, don't know how valid tho-
Condoleza Rice.

[wossa]

not having read this whole thread yet -

my take is affirmative action sucks.

You should get everything on merit. If you are a white male with better credentials and are passed over for a minority then you were discriminated against.

Period.

Senior year I was put on a waiting list when I applied to UNC. A good friend of my mine had a lower SAT score, much lower class rank and a lower GPA. We both had almost identical extracurricular activities.

But somehow I ended up on the waiting list, but she, a black female was accepted. I was happy for her but as I look at that I was discrminated against, purely so the school could fill a gender or racial quota.

[twin$]

Originally posted by wossa
not having read this whole thread yet -

my take is affirmative action sucks.

You should get everything on merit. If you are a white male with better credentials and are passed over for a minority then you were discriminated against.

Period.

Senior year I was put on a waiting list when I applied to UNC. A good friend of my mine had a lower SAT score, much lower class rank and a lower GPA. We both had almost identical extracurricular activities.

But somehow I ended up on the waiting list, but she, a black female was accepted. I was happy for her but as I look at that I was discrminated against, purely so the school could fill a gender or racial quota.

How are you so sure their decision was based solely on race? I could say the same thing. I graduated from college in 1998, have worked in the IT field for over 4 years, have my MCSE, several internships under my belt, but I still can't even land a help-desk job in the Charlotte area. I have been trying since college graduation to move back to NC. I was forced to move to VA, where blacks are more likely to have Engineering/technical positions. I have a few white friends that have had no problem getting these type of jobs in Charlotte or surounding areas, some w/o degrees or certifications. Even when I was in High School in that area, the only part-time jobs I could find were in fast food, while my white friends could easily land jobs in department stores, offices etc. Even today, I bet you can go into a department store at any mall in NC and you can count the number of black males in sales positions on one hand. Now, that's descrimination........

[Boo]

Originally posted by twin$


How are you so sure their decision was based solely on race? I could say the same thing. I graduated from college in 1998, have worked in the IT field for over 4 years, have my MCSE, several internships under my belt, but I still can't even land a help-desk job in the Charlotte area. I have been trying since college graduation to move back to NC. I was forced to move to VA, where blacks are more likely to have Engineering/technical positions. I have a few white friends that have had no problem getting these type of jobs in Charlotte or surounding areas, some w/o degrees or certifications. Even when I was in High School in that area, the only part-time jobs I could find were in fast food, while my white friends could easily land jobs in department stores, offices etc. Even today, I bet you can go into a department store at any mall in NC and you can count the number of black males in sales positions on one hand. Now, that's descrimination........

where were you trying to land a job? there is so much "outsourcing" of IT work in the city now combined with the people who used to do the work being laid off...there is a glut of unemployed IT workers in this city. Most of the "big" employers are under budget crunches and are only hiring for critical positions.

MCSE workers are a dime a dozen here. Why would anyone hire you when they can just pay a contractor til the work is done?

Your best bet is to change your name to something that sounds like you are from India.

[Boo]

Originally posted by wossa
not having read this whole thread yet -

my take is affirmative action sucks.

You should get everything on merit. If you are a white male with better credentials and are passed over for a minority then you were discriminated against.

Period.

Senior year I was put on a waiting list when I applied to UNC. A good friend of my mine had a lower SAT score, much lower class rank and a lower GPA. We both had almost identical extracurricular activities.

But somehow I ended up on the waiting list, but she, a black female was accepted. I was happy for her but as I look at that I was discrminated against, purely so the school could fill a gender or racial quota.

go back and read the actual UofM point system....there is no quota.

[twin$]

Originally posted by Boo


where were you trying to land a job? there is so much "outsourcing" of IT work in the city now combined with the people who used to do the work being laid off...there is a glut of unemployed IT workers in this city. Most of the "big" employers are under budget crunches and are only hiring for critical positions.

MCSE workers are a dime a dozen here. Why would anyone hire you when they can just pay a contractor til the work is done?

Your best bet is to change your name to something that sounds like you are from India.

I know MCSE's are very common, but I have a BS also, years of business and technical experience. Given the fact that the economy in Charlotte is f&(ked up right now, but I have been trying 2 land a technical job there sine 1998!, before the IT bubble burst. I have given up in the area for the moment b/c, as you said "there is a glut of unemployed IT workers in this city". My problem existed before the current economic situation though.

Also, U R right, the OofM doesn't have a quota system.

[Boo]

yep...IMO, you almost have to know someone to put in a good word for you or you don't have a chance.

[twin$]

Originally posted by Boo
yep...IMO, you almost have to know someone to put in a good word for you or you don't have a chance.

Such as the Family Legacy system UofM, but everyone is so concerned w/ the AA issue. I am almost willing to bet that more kids of alumni have benefited than those from AA.

[Boo]

Originally posted by twin$


Such as the Family Legacy system UofM, but everyone is so concerned w/ the AA issue. I am almost willing to bet that more kids of alumni have benefited than those from AA.

I don't think the people who are bitching about UofM's system have actually read the point system.

[twin$]

Originally posted by Boo


I don't think the people who are bitching about UofM's system have actually read the point system.

EXACTLY!!! Most people think AA means that a white person is going to take a white person's job or spot in college, when that is not the case, when AA is applied properly.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by Boo


I don't think the people who are bitching about UofM's system have actually read the point system.


If you show up at the door of UofM with a perfect SAT score, they give you 12 points on their point system. Show up as a black person, they'll give you 20. That seems about fair, don't it?:rolleyes:

[twin$]

Originally posted by PantherMills



If you show up at the door of UofM with a perfect SAT score, they give you 12 points on their point system. Show up as a black person, they'll give you 20. That seems about fair, don't it?:rolleyes:

Well, if a middle class black person from NC shows up w/ the same SAT as a white kid from Michigan who is the cousin of an alumni, his parents were alumni, and the white kid is considered Socio-economic disadvantaged, then guess who gets in? The white kid. The white kid would get 4 pts b/c his parents were alumni, 1 point b/c his cousin was an alumni, 20 pts for being Socio-economic disadvantaged and 10 more for being out of state. The white kid has just racked up 35 extra points for things that have nothing to do w/ talent. Even if the black kid got 20 points for being black, he still comes up short. So if AA is done away with, so should a lot of other things used as part of the Admission Criteria. It's not as if Blacks are the only ones benefitting from this system (as anyone who hasn't actually read the Admissions Criteria would think).

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills



If you show up at the door of UofM with a perfect SAT score, they give you 12 points on their point system. Show up as a black person, they'll give you 20. That seems about fair, don't it?:rolleyes:

Who says they give you an automatic 20 points for being black? That was never said.

[Agent Smith]

Applicants receive up to 40 points for other factors that indicate an applicant's potential contribution to LSA. They may receive 20 points for one of the following: membership in an underrepresented minority group, socioeconomic disadvantage, attendance at a predominantly minority high school, athletics, or at the Provost's discretion. Reflecting the University's commitment both to state residents and to broader geographic diversity, counselors assign ten points for Michigan residency, six additional points for residency in underrepresented Michigan counties, and two points for residency in underrepresented states. Applicants receive one or four points for alumni relationships. The personal essay can earn up to three points. Based on an applicant's activities, work experience, and awards, counselors may assign up to five points for leadership and service, and five more points for personal achievement.

source:

http://www.umich.edu/~urel/admissions/faqs/uapolicy.html

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


Who says they give you an automatic 20 points for being black? That was never said.

What Agent Smith said. They give 20 points for underrepresented minority group .

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by twin$


Well, if a middle class black person from NC shows up w/ the same SAT as a white kid from Michigan who is the cousin of an alumni, his parents were alumni, and the white kid is considered Socio-economic disadvantaged, then guess who gets in? The white kid. The white kid would get 4 pts b/c his parents were alumni, 1 point b/c his cousin was an alumni, 20 pts for being Socio-economic disadvantaged and 10 more for being out of state. The white kid has just racked up 35 extra points for things that have nothing to do w/ talent. Even if the black kid got 20 points for being black, he still comes up short. So if AA is done away with, so should a lot of other things used as part of the Admission Criteria. It's not as if Blacks are the only ones benefitting from this system (as anyone who hasn't actually read the Admissions Criteria would think).

All I'm saying is, take the race issue out of it. A persons skin color should have nothing to do with it.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


What Agent Smith said. They give 20 points for underrepresented minority group .

Um you didn't read what Agent Smith said. It said they MAY (key word) get it for being a minority. In other words its NOT guaranteed.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


Um you didn't read what Agent Smith said. It said they MAY (key word) get it for being a minority. In other words its NOT guaranteed.

What's your point? The fact that they may use the color of someone's skin was my point, and I think it's wrong.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


What's your point? The fact that they may use the color of someone's skin was my point, and I think it's wrong.

The point is unless these kids who got rejected can prove anything, they are crying over nothing.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


The point is unless these kids who got rejected can prove anything, they are crying over nothing.

But the possibility puts a question mark over every minority there, and that's unfair to them, especially the ones who deserve to be there on merit alone.

Let me ask you this. Putting everything else aside, do you think that it is fair to use the color of someone's skin to qualify for anything?

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


But the possibility puts a question mark over every minority there, and that's unfair to them, especially the ones who deserve to be there on merit alone.

Let me ask you this. Putting everything else aside, do you think that it is fair to use the color of someone's skin to qualify for anything?

no its not

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


no its not

That's all I'm saying.
Why should the powers that be at the UofM , or anywhere else for that matter, even know what the applicants race is. Give the best applicants their admission to school, and if they're all purple, so be it.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


That's all I'm saying.
Why should the powers that be at the UofM , or anywhere else for that matter, even know what the applicants race is. Give the best applicants their admission to school, and if they're all purple, so be it.

And my point is how can they prove they recieved 20 points also because they were a minority?

[lj4three]

Originally posted by PantherMills


That's all I'm saying.
Why should the powers that be at the UofM , or anywhere else for that matter, even know what the applicants race is. Give the best applicants their admission to school, and if they're all purple, so be it.

i agree with this policy- the only thing is, that the whole admissions process would have to be rewritten- everywhere. sadly, we dont live in a world of ideals.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by lj4three


i agree with this policy- the only thing is, that the whole admissions process would have to be rewritten- everywhere. sadly, we dont live in a world of ideals.

True. But it should be our goal.

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


And my point is how can they prove they recieved 20 points also because they were a minority?

We seem to be going around in circles, here. I just think that if someone has the possibility of using someone's race as criteria, that ain't right. I don't care about proving anything.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


We seem to be going around in circles, here. I just think that if someone has the possibility of using someone's race as criteria, that ain't right. I don't care about proving anything.

I don't think its right someone who got in over them with the alumni status either but you will never hear a cry about that would you?

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


I don't think its right someone who got in over them with the alumni status either but you will never hear a cry about that would you?

You're right. I said somewhere else in this thread that I don't have a problem with that.


edit: about not crying over that... alumni status is understandable, reguardless of your color.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


You're right. I said somewhere else in this thread that I don't have a problem with that.


edit: about not crying over that... alumni status is understandable, reguardless of your color.

So what does parents have to do with anything when 2 people are applying for college and one gets a boost just because their parents graduated from the school? In other words DENYING the other person from getting in.

[twin$]

Originally posted by PantherMills


You're right. I said somewhere else in this thread that I don't have a problem with that.


edit: about not crying over that... alumni status is understandable, reguardless of your color.

How is alumni status understandable? What does one's parents have to do w/ the individuals accademic performance? that can used as a tool for racial discrimination. Im sure there are a lot more white alumni atUofM than any other color.

[PantherMills]

A good percentage of people who attend college never graduate. Those associated with alumni have a much higher graduation rate. With everything else being equal, colleges stand a better chance of graduating a student who is associated with an alumni.

Again, state why the color of someone's skin should be an issue?

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills
A good percentage of people who attend college never graduate. Those associated with alumni have a much higher graduation rate. With everything else being equal, colleges stand a better chance of graduating a student who is associated with an alumni.

Again, state why the color of someone's skin should be an issue?

people's parents who are alumni have a higher graduate percentage based on what?

[SincereNCinMD]

So those kids who are crying could of been denied because they might have been chosen over by another kid who's parents was a graduate of the university. And its no problem with that? What if the denied kids parents did go to college and graduated college (but not at UM)? Is it still right?

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


people's parents who are alumni have a higher graduate percentage based on what?

We're veering off course, here.
Descrimination, as I've said, is not bad. Descrimination becomes bad when race is used as a qualifier. Alumni status has nothing to do with race.

[SincereNCinMD]

Originally posted by PantherMills


We're veering off course, here.
Descrimination, as I've said, is not bad. Descrimination becomes bad when race is used as a qualifier. Alumni status has nothing to do with race.

Well for those kids who got denied, tell them to "GET OVER IT"

[PantherMills]

Originally posted by SincereNCinMD


Well for those kids who got denied, tell them to "GET OVER IT"


ok...get over it.