For the Pitching Guru's

[Braves]

Another great site for those who don't get enough info on pitching.

Check out the forum " Best of.." then go to "Tempo and Nolan Ryan thread" ...sometimes there is just too much information, but the videos of pitching mechanics are awesome. Check out some of the other threads under "Best" as well.



For the pitching guru's (www.setpro.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb+get-topic;f=2;t=000604#000000):D

[Applejack]

Originally posted by Braves
Another great site for those who don't get enough info on pitching.

Check out the forum " Best of.." then go to "Tempo and Nolan Ryan thread" ...sometimes there is just too much information



For the pitching guru's (www.setpro.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb+get-topic;f=2;t=000604#000000):D

Yo Braves,
These guys are too intricate. Too specific.
I learned from Dave Stewart that everyone cannot excel by doing the picture perfect thing.
Dave told me to try everything that will enhance what got me there but never to forget what got me there.
That's why he went from almost out of baseball to winning 60 + games in three years.
But this is some good stuff.

[Braves]

I agree AJ..I'm old school " See it, hit it". But I'm trying to adapt to these new fangled toys. Listen, I was one of the last to tryout that other new toy....the Computer :D

I'll tell ya something though. There is a thread on there about pitching motion where they show the different mechanics of Steve Avery; from when he first started (successful) and when he finished with the Red Sox ( disastrous )....it was amazing the differences and it was very noticeable why he lost his fastball.

You wonder if he was presented with this earlier, if it could have saved his career.

[NCBBallFan]

I've seen that clip. I believe the biggest part of the change in his mechanics were related to his injuries.

AJ, I've heard that you don't learn to pitch until you've gone through an injury. Until then your a thrower ususally (I'm thinking of Kerry Wood for example). Like every old axiom, there is a liberal amount of exageration in that one, but how much of a grain of truth is present?

[Braves]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
I've seen that clip. I believe the biggest part of the change in his mechanics were related to his injuries.

Correct..but it was a rib injury. He recovered, but changed his mechanics during rehab. You would think all the money that is spent by ballclubs that a simple video of before and after would be available...but never underestimate arrogance. I'm not saying that they didn't do that, but it is quite clear that the changes made by Avery, clearly were not in his best interest.

[NCBBallFan]

I'm sure your not old enough to remember Dizzy Dean (except from the broadcast booth like I do) but he got hit by a line-drive on the big toe.

He tried to pitch through the toe injury and blew out his shoulder from the change in mechanics. I don't know if Avery got a secondary injury from his ribs, but it does happen sometimes.

[Applejack]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
I've seen that clip. I believe the biggest part of the change in his mechanics were related to his injuries.

AJ, I've heard that you don't learn to pitch until you've gone through an injury. Until then your a thrower ususally (I'm thinking of Kerry Wood for example). Like every old axiom, there is a liberal amount of exageration in that one, but how much of a grain of truth is present?

I've known Greg and Mike Maddux since 1987 when we all played together in Venezuela. Neither of them had great stuff, but they could both pitch.
Tom Glavine does'nt have great stuff but he can pitch. I have not known either of them to substain serious injury.
Conversely, I've known John Smoltz since 1985 and he had and has amazing stuff, but since his career threatening injury, he has really learned to pitch. He had an idea before but his mentality has changed tremendously. He now wants to figure out how to get a hitter out rather than how to strike him out.
Most people say that because it goes back to what I said before about pitchers and throwers.
Throwers get by mostly on natural talent but when injury comes around and you no longer have that 95 mph fastball or some other devastating pitch then you have to figure out how you are going to get people out.
Sometimes you run across people that are gifted with natural ability and also know how to pitch, that is when it gets scary.
JR Richards, Nolan Ryan, Fergie Jenkins and that sort...

[playme]

i am no pitching guru..however, i learned a long time ago and have since passed it on to my son..that you are not a pitcher until you learn to pitch so the ball can be hit...my son gets about 7..8..maybe 9 Ks a game...most outs are recorded by ground ball outs or pop ups...he must have a good defense behind him, otherwise he suffers from errors, and misplayed hits, those that are routine flyball outs that drop for a hit...he gets upset when he "sets up" a hitter and the ump misses the call...for this he is called a #2 pitcher on the staff, because he doesn't try to "blow" the hitter away..he doesn't try for 12, 13, 18 Ks, per game.

i see young high school sophmore throwers hitting a gun at 87, 88 mph..and icing their shoulders down right afterwards and the next day can hardly lift an arm let alone throw...

he doesn't ice his arm and plays his secondary position the next day with little or no soreness...so far he has topped out at 87mph...i have stressed mechanics..mechanics...mechanics; you can not take 1 part of the mechanics without all the other parts, the mechanics work in unison...we start each session from the stretch because of less movement...

i like the Tom House, Nolan Ryan, and Randy Johnson video with a lot of emphasis on a Tom Seaver follow through to take the pressure and strain off the shoulder and elbow...bend that landing kneeeeeeee.....this also helps in being in a good defensive posture at or after delivery...

again i am no guru or coach or ex-major leaguer trying to make a buck..i am a dad who cares about his son and his son's health...we use tubing for the rotator cuff, a 3lb dumb bell for the arms and shoulders and bunches of running,..sprints, jog, and walking...

by the way his favorite pitch is a true fork ball..not a splitter...fork ball...i know somebody's gonna rip me over this..

[Applejack]

" see young high school sophmore throwers hitting a gun at 87, 88 mph..and icing their shoulders down right afterwards and the next day can hardly lift an arm let alone throw..." by playme

Oh playme, this is a must after throwing in a game. please have your son ice after pitching.

Fork balls in high school?
Let me put it to you this way, I had a roommate with the Tigers who was a # 1 draft pick out of high school. Reason being, he threw 92 mph out of high school.
He did'nt develop an off speed pitch and soon found out that the harder you throw, the further it goes.
Instead of developing a curve ball or change-up he fell in love with the fork ball.
His fastball went from 92 to 83 in a hurry, and now he cannot straighten his right arm without surgery.

[MlbScout]

Amen AppleJack!!! High school pitchers need to stay away from the forkball and splitter. I have worked with many pitchers over the years and always stress in order......Fastball ( 2 and 4 seamer), fastball location, changeup (with fastball armspeed..the hitter swings at the armspeed). Too many young pitchers get overly concerned about movement on the change. The most important thing is to maintain the fastball arm speed, worry about the movement later. Too many high school pitchers never reach their maximum arm strength ( and velocity ) due to the throwing of too many curve balls. They are great for getting out high school hitters, since most high schoolers can't even hit a bad curve. However, they retard the development of the fastball. Good rule for the fastball......use it, or lose it! I don't like to see pitchers throwing the breaking ball until about age 15. Develop a sound delivery, good arm action, master the fastball (with location), and throw the heck out of the change.

[playme]

my point...everyone has a theory....

stop any video of Andy Petite or Randy Johnson, look very closely at their elbows...zoom in on the elbow....look at that deformity....why do high school kids have to hit 90+ mph???....

if the ball is "clocked at 95mph..that means the arm, elbow and shoulder is moving 95mph...MLBScout... does this not bother you?
is velocity what makes a high school pitcher? or his future?

what about proper mechanics? painting the black? ground ball outs? saving that kids arm? elbow? shoulder?

what is a splitter? and how do ya throw it? what's a fork ball and the proper way to throw it?

Curve? Slider? what's the proper way to throw it? any of these can hurt an arm or elbow if not thrown properly...ask Smoltz or Harvey...

new school or old school...which is it...or what works today???

Look at Seaver closely..frame by frame...look at Keith Falke..frame by frame...break the motion down...

like i said...i am no guru, my kid is 6' 4' , weighs 180lbs..never had an arm problem, hardly ever ices, 80% 2 seam, lotsa sink and movement, and 4 seam fastballs 87mph, lotsa balls hit into the dirt at home plate.. forkball breaks in the direction of whichever finger has the most pressure, curve at 76mph...change 73-75mph also..paints the black....cruises at 84 to 86mph.....senior in high school....doesn't care if he plays the next level

he has been recruited in the early signing period and is currently being recruited by D2 college....he just as soon play juco or community college...if he plays college ball it will be for someone locale...

there are 6 steps to the proper pitching mechanics...5 if throwing from the stretch....

[Intimidator Coach]

My son doesnt use ice either. Instead he uses simple exercises
(jobes) after throwing . No arm problems and i agree with throwing all these pitches , it could be bad for arms and shoulders. But by the same token , mine doesnt throw in the high 80's but does have good location and that occasional fork ball he could use , yes ( fork ball ) , only problem is that the pitching coach dont allow it.

I think each pitcher has different limits , what might not work for some works great for others.

[playme]

we use exercises also...and i agree with Nolan Ryan about only throwing off a mound in the bull pen when he is preparing for his start..i believe that the flat work helps keep the stress off the shoulder...

at a recent showcase we attended..which was rained out except for pitchers and catchers...we were told that velocity was all they were interested it and not worry about location...1 kid was 90+ with his ball almost going over the backstop...1 kid was 88 and his pitch would have been behind a right hand hitter...i realize that scouts believe they can teach location..but if kids are asked to do the above in a bull pen to impress a coach or scout, then they have a tendency to rush their mechanics and could lead to injury...my son topped out at 85, was on the corners, and complimented on his mechanics...

i believe that another problem for high schoolers is that usually the pitchers also play somewhere else when not pitching...if they work on mechanics in the pen then go to take infield or vise versa they usually throw more...if at ss, 3b, 2b, or 1b do they use the same throwing motion as from the mound? i think this can lead to overuse of a youngsters arm...

i am sorry but i believe that if the growth plates are still open and the skeletal frame is still growing it is not ready to be bulked up...

besides my son is my best friend and we have suffered together through 2 knee surgeries on the same knee... it is no fun to see your kid lying on the infield and have to be carried off...no i am not the first dad to go through this but it has made me cautious about training methods...

[ajax]

Different treatments work for different kids. However, I believe that every pitcher needs to ice their arm after throwing. But, some kids think that they don't need it and they think that there beliefs are correct. But thats what makes this world great (opinions), so the ones that want and believe they need ice you give it to them. Mechanics I believe are important, but I dont believe that a pitcher only needs mound work during warmups. But again at the high school level you are dealing with not only players but parents as well. I have seen parents run a baseball program by forcing their beliefs about their kids on the coaches, such as pitch count for that kid,routines for that kid,and basically anything else that they believe is appropriate for their kid. I watched all of this transpire when I was a player in high school,and after that kid only listening to that parent he now sits at home and collect a welfare check. But then again some kids throw off the mound twice a week (1 time is game day), then go play thir position and develop arm troubles. So I guess it just depends on the kids body chemistry. I also find it hard to believe that any kid in any program was a #2 pitcher just because he wasnt a strikeout pitcher. That to me sounds like one parents view.