Baseball Talk: Hitting, Pitching, Catching Strategy

[NCBBallFan]

I really should have said "Remember hearing about Merkle?" This was a LONG time ago
The infamous Merkle Boner!

Fred Merkle's bonehead play in 1908 cost the Giants a victory. Because of his play, the game had to be replayed and the Giants lost the rematch. The key was that the rematch was at the end of the season and the Cubs won.

The Play: Merkle was the runner on first. He failed to touch second after an base hit by Al Bridwell. Instead, he went back toward the dugout (most players did this at the time), when he saw the "winning" run cross the plate.

The Polo Grounds crowd filed across the field towards the centerfield gate (yep - across the playing field). Second baseman Johnny Evers (Double Play combo "Tinker to Evers to Chance") got the ball, stepped on second and yelled for a forceout which cancelled the winning run.

The fans were all over the field. The game couldn't be restarted.
After much discussion and bickering, it was decided that the game had to be replayed.

"The Giants lost the pennant...The Giants lost the pennant!"

Ok guys..... Over the years we've all seen some great Merkle's....... Lets share 'em. They can be pro, minor, college, high-school or kid ball.

[cc12501]

I remember hearing about how Olde Providence lost to Sotheast Charlotte in All-Stars. O.P. is up easily on S.E. One of O.P.'s players started to get very upset at the umpire and almost got thrown out at one time. Another problem occured when O.P. could not sub anyone into the game anymore; so those nine had to finish the game. That same player got mad at another call and was ejected from the game, and since they only had 8 to play, they had to forefit the game, and S.E. Charlotte got the win.

[NCBBallFan]

Some baseball rules have a good history. Read this rule carefully and see if you can figure out why it was written.

Rule 7.08 (i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, a runner runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call "Time" and declare the runner out.

It's a great story! Answer to follow later.

[NCBBallFan]

1908: The situation that it came up in was the "double steal" with runners at 1st and 3rd. In those days, you couldn't wait for the 3 run homer. Only two player hit over 9 homers the entire season so everyone played "smallball".

Detroit had a pretty fast squad. One of their speedsters was named Davy Jones (not the singer, I promise). He was on third base and Germany Schaefer was the runner at first.

Players didn't use managers or 3B coaches to tell them what to do in those days, they looked at each other and signaled each other. On the first pitch to the next batter, Germany took off and stole 2B, hoping for a throwdown so Jones could steal home. But the catcher didn't bite. On the next pitch, Schaefer let out a war hoop and stole first base from 2nd. The Cleveland team was so shocked that they just watched him do it! He yelled his intent across the diamond to Jones that he was going to go again. Sure enough, on the next pitch he took off and the catcher, Nig Clarke, tried to throw him out.

Sure enough, Jones scored from third on the throw. This was back in the day when Ty Cobb sharpened his spikes with a file to punnish middle infielders who tried to tag him out and base runners slid with their spikes at face level. It's not surprizing that there wasn't a throw home on the play.

Oddly enough, this was the third time that someone had "stolen first" in the big leagues, but it's the one that's remembered. The rule was changed in about 1920.

:stooges:

[NCBBallFan]

Only one time in the history of baseball can I find where there were two players playing the same position during the same play. Any ideas

I'm not talking about a "shift" or 5 infielders or anything like that. Actually having 10 people involved in A SINGLE play on defense at the same time. Answer to follow.

[NCBBallFan]

Back in the 1880's no substitutions were allowed except in the case of injury. This kinda eliminated all that strategic stuff about lefty-righty matchups and forget relievers....unheard of. If it was your day to pitch, you pitched.....both games.

Before the beginning of the 1891 season, baseball added a substitution rule, but this was without looking at how people in baseball "bend" rules (see emory boards, sand paper, etc). The rule just stated that you could substitute at anytime by announcing the switch.

"Now catching for Boston, Mike Kelly"

Mike "King" Kelly of Boston used the rule when he jumped off the bench to catch a foul ball. He saw that the Boston catcher had no chance to make the play, so he substituted himself in as the catcher while the ball was in the air.

Hence....10 defensive players on one play. Needless to say, the rule was quickly modified.

:cool:

[Braves]

Hey NCBBall, I had heard that you actually witnessed those plays...any truth to the rumors? :D

[NCBBallFan]

Believe it or not, I was around for the next one..... Naw, I'm one of those unfortunates that loves the game, loves to read and remembers tiny little details for decades ..... and can't find my car in the parking lot .... or my way home from the grocery store!
:D :invasion: :laugher: :laugher:

[NCBBallFan]

Last one....The origin of this rule is in "some of our" life times. It's definately in mine. No, I'm not 80 and bed-ridden.....just rode hard and put up wet.

The rule states:
Rule 7.09 (g) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.

Question.....When & why did they write it, what was the rule before.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :thinking: :jawomg:

[gonzo]

I am not the baseball scholar that NCBBallFan is, but I do have a funny story. My son was pitching a SE Charlotte Rec game when he was 14 or 15. Runners at the corners, one out. In those days, he had a tendency to overthrow, which of course led to some wildness. He throws one that winds up headed for the top of thee hitters helmet, so of course the hitter ducks straight down. But he leaves the bat sticking up, the ball hits the bat and rolls straight back to the mound. The other teams runners just stand there, but our team responded perfectly, turning a 1-6-3 double play, out of the inning, yeah!

[NCBBallFan]

Good one gonzo....thats what we need.

Answer to the last rules question.

It's April, early in the season, it's 1957 and the Reds are playing a series against the Braves.... This was back when (believe it or not) the Braves were good and they were heavily favored.

The Red's Johnny Temple is on base, a ground ball by Gus Bell is hit at him and it's an obvious "double play" ball. Temple stops and lets the ball hit him...The ball is called dead, the play is immediately over and Bell is awarded a single. This play keeps the Reds in the game but the lose 5-4.

The VERY NEXT DAY, the same two teams are matched up. This time, Red's player Don Hoak is on 2nd with a runner on 1B. Wally Post hits a ground ball directly at the shortstop. Instead of letting the ball hit him as Temple did, Hoak jumps in front of the shortstop and FIELDS THE BALL barehanded. He then turns around and flips the ball (slowly) to Johnny Logan (Brave's SS). Again, Hoak is out for interference and Post is awarded a single....inning continues.
OBTW: "Braves Win, Braves Win"...final score 3-1.

After those two plays, the rules are ammended to make both the runner and batter out for intentional interference.

Lets hear about some strange plays our kids (or us as players) were in.

[Braves]

I remember a game where we were in the playoffs. It was a 1-1 game in the 8th inning. We had the bases loaded with 2 outs. Our runner at 3rd noticed a particular habit the pitcher had. He would roll the ball in his hand while getting the sign from his catcher.

While the pitcher was receiving his sign, the runner at third made a break to home. The pitcher got too excited and while he was twirling the ball...he dropped it....balk. The pitcher became rattled and we scored 4 runs after that.

[NCBBallFan]

You have a tendancy to forget, after seeing a certain high level of play that there are a lot of "holes" in the knowledge that kids have today concerning the rules.

We were in a tie ball game, in the bottom of the 7th, 2 outs, runners on 1st & 3rd. We put in a pitcher who had done well all year. He had great control and was good at getting the "ground ball"...The other team was at the bottom of the order, so we figured our chances for extra innings were pretty good.

Well, the guy had been watching pitchers fake to third and then throw to first all season...he had done it repeatedly himself. But he figured out to do one better on his own.

On the first pitch, he faked to first and then threw to third....balk...game over..... When we talked to him, he swore he had never heard the rule. All our pitchers received personal instruction on "balk calls" from then on and that instruction was repeated every year.

[Braves]

:D

[Braves]

What are the most important ages and why?

[NCBBallFan]

I dunno but.....

That first "Hit By Pitch" has made more soccer players than any soccer hype in public schools could ever dream of........
:help:

[Braves]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
I dunno but.....

That first "Hit By Pitch" has made more soccer players than any soccer hype in public schools could ever dream of........
:help:

It kind of weeds them out, doesn't it. :)

13 yo moving up to regulation size fields, throwing the ball waaaaaay over to 1st..and hitting to the infield and taken what seems like forever to run to first is a big change.

But is the teaching of fundamentals at a young age more important? Or teaching the finer areas of the game when they are older, more important or trying to save the good players from giving the sport up after being introduced to GIRLS the most critical time? What's your thoughts.

[NCBBallFan]

You talk to a scout and he knows that it's the 18-20 when they really learn how to play, the reach their strength, the pitchers velocity and ability starts showing their final promise.

BUT... Though they develop more (and quicker) in those 2-3 years than any other time, I will hold out for 13-14. You can fix flaws fairly easily up to the age of 14. After that, it becomes VERY DIFFICULT. It shows in HS immediately if you really know how to play the game (even if physically, you lag behind upper classmen).

[Prepster]

Honestly, I think they're ALL important...for different reasons. However, forced to choose, I'm in the "8-10" camp.

Properly coached, young players not only have an opportunity to learn the basic skills correctly; they also can begin to appreciate the fact that baseball is different in some fundamental respects from virtually every other sport. The main difference that comes to mind is the amount of thought it takes to play the game well.

A quick story to this point: When one of my sons was in his first year of coach-pitch, we were riding down the street one day soon after practice had begun, and he said, "You know, Dad, playing second base takes a LOT of THINKING! ...and I'm not sure I can get it all down well enough to keep from letting my team down."

I replied, "You know, son, your coach wouldn't have asked you to play the position if he hadn't been confident you could learn it over time. None of you is expected to know exactly how to play the positions you've been assigned; but, if you'll all listen carefully to what he tells you to do and work hard at it, you'll get there."

Fortunately, for his sake, he hung in there...and he learned in the process that baseball was about MUCH more than just the basic skills.

[THEBIG"O"]

I think I am gonna go with 11-12 on this one just because I feel like these are the years when a kid decides if they are going to be a rec. league player or become serious in baseball. So to me these are the years that you have to instill the type of work ethic in them that it takes to bring your game to that new level. If not then they will be left behind as they move into the older age groups. And no matter how good they are if they dont begin taking the game serious at this age then they should plan on a career of rec. league and not always making the HS team, which is fine if that is what you want.

[law1ng2b]

runner on first, one out. the batter hits a swinging bunt down the third base line. our baseline 'cutouts' were pretty high. the ball rolls into foul territory and both the runner and batter stop. knowing how the baseline was cut, we let the ball hit the lip of the cut, bounce back into fair territory and complete a 5-4-3 double play. how's that for home field advantage?

[NCBBallFan]

oooooooooo Nasty...I like.:cool:

[allrightnow]

I believe the earlier that kids start playing around with a baseball the better. I mean getting used to thrown and batted balls whether they catch them or not, and throwing the ball. The important thing is for them to know about the ball and what it does.

For my money, learning how to hold the ball and throw it are the most important things at a young age (<8). Catching and hitting will pick up as they move along. Tee ball gives them an idea of the hand/eye coordination necessary to be successful in all facets of the game. I know older kids who absolutely have the worst throwing mechanics I have ever seen and it's because they didn't learn to throw at an early age.

As they get a little older and their coordination starts developing a little better (8-10?), then catching the ball correctly and starting to develop hitting skills with pitched balls become important. I have found that the kids who learned to catch early and learned to catch hard thrown balls are light years ahead of some of their peers. A case in point is my own son, he'd go in the house crying because I was "throwing too hard." As it turns out now, he is fearless with hard hit balls and I attribute that to throwing those zingers at him at an early age. I increased the velocity as he was able to adjust, but he even admits it helped him.

At 11-13 or so they can start fine tuning their game and by the time they get to high school, hopefully they are fairly accomplished for their age. You never stop learning though and if you stop honing your game, you're done.

But for me, it all starts with getting a feel for the ball as early as possible by throwing. Catching and all the rest will fall into place with decent coaching.

Does this make any sense?

[rcbbfan]

I think your on the right track, allrightnow. Allow me to share a story with you.

On his 2nd birthday, my father gave my son a big red plastic bat and ball. The handle on the bat was so big that he could hardly get his fingers around it. I took him out in the yard to play with his new ball and bat that he was so proud of. It was June and I didn't have a shirt on. I gave him the bat and after showing him how to hold it and how to stand I stepped back about 5 or 6 feet and pitched him the ball. Well, that was a mistake, he hit the ball so hard that it hit me in the chest before I could move. It was at that point that with a little coaching I knew that he would be a baseball player.

[law1ng2b]

yeah, although it had never happened in a game, we saw it several times in practice and knew that it could happen. just a lesson in baserunning to go all out until you hear the umpire yell 'FOUL BALL'.

this one is not so much a bonehead play...but an interesting way to get out of a jam.

Game 3 of the 1988 NC 4A finals. Harding is leading the heavily favored Rose High School late in the game (5th inning i think). Runners on first and second and no outs. batter hits a sharp one hopper to third. the runner baits the the third basemen into getting him into a rundown. realizing this, the second basemen calls for the ball. the thow just beats the runner from first for the force out. the second baseman then chases down the runner from second and tags him for the double play. two out, pitcher is out of the jam and Harding goes on to win the game and the title.

we practiced run downs every day in practice...and because we executed it to perfection, we were able to turn a tough situation into a major turning point in the game. One throw, two outs...you can't ask for much more than that.

[Braves]

Originally posted by law1ng2b
we practiced run downs every day in practice...and because we executed it to perfection, we were able to turn a tough situation into a major turning point in the game. One throw, two outs...you can't ask for much more than that.

Wasn't Chet Greason the coach at that time?

[NCBBallFan]

Sometimes the youngun's will surprise you. I remember a game that I was coaching when my kid was 9. We were in a 9-10 year old league. Remember back to those days? It was just one step above herd ball (you hit the ball and the whole team ran to it).

Well, anyway, we were trailing by 3 runs but had the bases loaded with walks from the preceeding pitcher. The other team had called time-out and had gone to the bull-pen (i.e. first base) to bring in their big gun (he was 10 ).

Our on-deck hitter seemed to be just staring out at the clouds while the guy was warming up so I went out to him to try to get his head back in the game. Instead, he said to me "see the right fielder?"

The right fielder had his glove on the ground, was playing with dandelions and picking his nose. I did the appropriate coach thing in this situation.....I kept my mouth shut and left.

First pitch, our hitter steps in towards the plate and hits a rocket shot to right field.... The ball is by the RF before he moves. While he is still picking up his glove, the 2B races past him trying to get the ball headed towards the corner. The bases are being drained in a hurry. When the 2B gets the ball, he throws a rainbow towards the IF but, since he went out, there is no one there for the cut-off. The 1B starts trudging towards where the ball landed....kids still trucking around the bases.....

Sure enough, inside the parker... typical home run in those days.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[AAUMom]

I'm new to the board, and a female to boot :) but in my opinion I think the most important age for development is the 8-10 yr age range.

I have a 13 yr old son that has played baseball, beginning with t-ball at the age of 4 to playing on an AAU team as well as his middle school team. He has played AAU since he was 9. We were fortunate that he had coaches that believed in teaching fundamentals from the beginning. I think it's so much more advantageous for a player to learn the basics correctly, and build from that point, rather than have to attempt to correct poor habits later. The coaches he has had have worked the kids hard, but kept it a 'game'. My son has had the pleasure of playing in three different national tournaments, as well as playing at the Cooperstown Field of Dreams twice. We've met many wonderful people, from all walks of life, with different baseball philosophies.

[NCBBallFan]

Welcome aboard AAUMom

It's sure nice to have a voice of reason in this testosterone filed environment.
:flipgrin: :flipgrin: :flipgrin: :flipgrin: :flipgrin:

[Braves]

WELCOME ABOARD AAUMOM

We love to have the ladies here. We are always better informed after their posts.

:xyzwave: :applause::jump:

[AAUMom]

Thank you both very much.

I have a question for you, but some background first.
We live in the Salisbury area, my kids are in the East Rowan school district. We're not "fourth generation Rowan County" people :( having only moved here about six years ago, but I still to this day find baseball, even at the school level, to be so political. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are certain kids that make teams irregardless of ability simply because their parents are on the school board, or is a booster with deep pockets. I think that's a shame. Roster space is limited and should go to the players with the most potential/skills/attitude etc. We've been fortunate in that my son's abilities and attitude have overcome that obstical.

Is it like this at most small town schools?

[Braves]

You will get some great responses from this

[NCBBallFan]

I ain't talking about senior citizen leadership. We use that in government and know the results of that. :help:

It can be defined but it would be better if it was described.

What is Senior Leadership? Where do you see it? Can it be taught? What is really meant when we say "The Senior's have to step up and lead the team"? Does it come from the coach or is it inherrent in the individual? What part does "work ethic" play?

Examples, Examples, Examples........... Let's hear it gang.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Braves]

There are many different kinds of leaders, some let their actions speak for themselves, some do that and are more demonstrative, but the commonality is they must be successful. Without that, their words fall on deaf ears.

[SabreFan]

AAUMOM:

I believe this warrants a completely new thread, don't you Braves and NCBBallFan as this has been a heated topic in many times past? AAUMOM, please start the new thread since it was initially your question however you wish to phrase the question.

I, myself, can not for the life of me figure out why a high school coach could or would jeopardize the succes of his team by bending to politics!!!!!!!!!!! You're right, it does sound very "small town" based. But, I am sure that there are arguments to back up the political issue of picking a team as well!

[Braves]

Originally posted by SabreFan
AAUMOM:

I believe this warrants a completely new thread, don't you Braves and NCBBallFan as this has been a heated topic in many times past? AAUMOM, please start the new thread since it was initially your question however you wish to phrase the question.

Good catch, Sabre!!

[law1ng2b]

Braves,
No, Greason was not the coach then. Buddy Rego was the coach. Greason followed Rego a couple of years after the championship season. The Rams have not been back to the playoffs since Rego left...but i am not going to get started on that.

[NCBBallFan]

Law1ng2b: I see you're living down in Atlanta now... Do you still follow the program at Harding? Keep up with the kids any?

[Braves]

Originally posted by law1ng2b
Braves,
No, Greason was not the coach then. Buddy Rego was the coach. Greason followed Rego a couple of years after the championship season. The Rams have not been back to the playoffs since Rego left...but i am not going to get started on that.


ooops...didn't mean to open a can of worms.

I still see Buddy Rego around. He umpires HS baseball games.

[SabreFan]

I thought that AAUMOM might start this thread but, I guess not! Anyway, anyone want to rethrash this old debate?

As I previously stated, I, myself, can not for the life of me figure out why a high school coach could or would jeopardize the success of his team by bending to politics!!!!!!!!!!! I for one do not buy into the fact that politics has anything to do with picking a baseball team and feel that it is usually a "sour grapes" type of attitude coming from parents and players!:argue:

[NCBBallFan]

Here is what AAU Mom said originally (for reference):

We live in the Salisbury area, my kids are in the East Rowan school district. We're not "fourth generation Rowan County" people having only moved here about six years ago, but I still to this day find baseball, even at the school level, to be so political. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are certain kids that make teams irregardless of ability simply because their parents are on the school board, or is a booster with deep pockets. I think that's a shame. Roster space is limited and should go to the players with the most potential/skills/attitude etc. We've been fortunate in that my son's abilities and attitude have overcome that obstical.

Sabrefan:
You have the distinction of being involved in a program in the big city. Pretty much the same for me. Small town baseball is different. It always has been.

I can't say anything about the north end of the county now because, when you combine the 3 towns up here, the population nears Gastonia in size and it's split among 2 HS (1 until last year).

When your student body is in excess of 1800, no, you won't see politics play much of a part. There is just too much talent to see that happen. When you are dealing with a small town and smaller schools, it's sometimes difficult to field a varsity team and a JV team of 18 top quality starters. You end up with holes and thats where the politics come in.

Let's hear from some of the small town guys and see if the situation has changed over the years.

OBTW: I think you have to eliminate the Hickory area because the kids up there have a .250 batting average at birth and are already hitting 42 on the jugs gun.

[Mudcat]

I can guarantee you that the HS coach at West Henderson does not bow to parent/local politics. His past record affords him the privelege of not having to. I think if you dig, you will find that successful coaches, who have winning programs do not. Younger coaches should really take a close look at their competion, that are winners year in and year out, and truly see what makes them successful. Get involved in their summer programs and support them. The more the kids play "together" the better they get. Give them an opportunity to stay together and play together year around.

[Baseball Manager 02]

When I think of the topic on bone head plays a few come to mind from my rec years. There full of them.
This one comes from about three years ago, SE Charlotte vs. SE Charlotte, or Matthews, don’t remember. I was up to bat and it was late in the game. After hitting two deep line drives I was swinging for the fence. But at that bat I connected with the ball extremely low on the bat shaft, and sent a hobbler right back to the pitcher. Now there are two outs and all he needs to do is throw me out. But instead he takes off to first in a slow trot. Any baseball player knows this is a mistake, because anything can happen when there’s a live ball. Well to make a long story short I ended up sliding under him, clipping him and reaching the base on a sure out. Needless to say his coach was not happy. There’s a reason you learn the basics otherwise you’ll end up here on the bone-head plays.

[law1ng2b]

NCBB,
it is tough to keep up with the program at Harding from down here. Once the coaches that i played for left (knotts and rego) and i moved down here, i lost interest. both programs (football and baseball) have really struggled. the last game i attended was 5 years ago (wow...has it been that long???) when they honored the 10th anniversary of our championship team. to be honest with you, i have followed South Mecklenburg...Hal Bagwell is a college buddy of mine. i come here to keep up with all of CLT ball.

Braves,
I was really disappointed to watch Chet take over the program at Harding...two years after a championship...and they win something like 5 games his first season. they never sniffed the playoffs during his time there. There was still talent there...he just did not know how to deal with those kids.

[catamount36]

i don't know of many coaches that would risk a losing season in order to play the political game. most coaches are way to competitive to allow that to happen. just because a coaches opinion is different from the parents doesn't mean it is politically motivated. some people just have to realize that they are not playing across the creek (at the little leaque) and they now have to MAKE the team.

[allrightnow]

There are probably some political decisions made by coaches, and I have seen some pretty intense lobbying by a few parents to make sure their little dumpling is on the team. I know of parents who have done things for the coach to gain an advantage for their kids, and unfortunately, it does happen. Hopefully it isn't often and hopefully there aren't many coaches that fall into that trap. Coaches are pressured though and there is a lot they can do to dispel any perceptions of politics.

What may look like politics too, is that many of the players come to a school with a reputation already. That reputation is seemingly the result of the ball they played at their previous school. For whatever reason, recreation league reputations don't seem to transfer as easily. So, that political decision could really be a kid's reputation. Coaches talk and they know what to expect when a middle schooler come to high school. Many times though the reputation doesn't meet up with reality.

In my small area, and I won't name it although some may guess, the biggest problem seems to be that many good ball players won't even try out for the team, or they transfer, because of the perception of politics. Whether it is really there or not is another question, but the coach isn't very well liked by his players, and I haven't heard of a one that respects him. In fact I have seen his players walk by him and never utter a word to him. But to be fair, he doesn't speak to them either very much.

I agree with catamount36 though, that a lot of the feelings of politics is most likely a difference of opinion between parents and coach, and of course the parents are going to side with their kid.

If we as parents would butt out of the situation and check OUR egos at the door, most of the kids would be happy. Many of them would be happy just being a part of the team.

[rcbbfan]

Boy, it's really interesting that so many of you guys think along the same lines as I do.

I live on the other side of Salisbury from AAUMom, but I know a lot of the players and parents that are currently playing East Rowan. I've always heard the rumblings of politics in their Little League but never in MS or HS. I know their former coach( my son was fortunate enough to play for him one summer) and I'll never believe that he ever played politics when it came to his team. He was(is) a competitor and he would never let anything jepordize his team's chances of winning, (his record will atest to that) and made a lot of enemies in doing so.
I can't say that I have had the pleasure of meeting their present coach, but neither his reputation as a coach nor convesations with some of his players would lead me to think he is any different.
On the other hand, there's a little(too much) politics in just about everything, I guess baseball maybe no different.

[NCBBallFan]

I will also admit freely that a parent is probably the WORST evaluation of his players talent.

They are either overly enthusiastic or overly critical (and sometimes both in the same sentence).:help:

[SouthLoop]

rcbbfan: Please go on just a little further than that...what exactly are your lines of thought and what exactly do you think?

[rcbbfan]

NCBBallFan, you are SO,SO, right.

When the kids are younger it is much easier to pick out the more talented players, but at the HS level it's much tougher for the untrained eye. That's why when someone asks me about my son I tell them to come to a game and make their own assessment.
As a parent, you're torn between the fact that you think your son(daughter) is a good player and the reality of knowing that what you think doesn't mean squat.(my son reminds me of this every now and then) We all want our kids to be successful in all their endeavors but some just can't see the forest for the trees.

Southloop, I was editing my previous post when you posted. I agree with what was said by all the previous posters. Although there are probably some HS coaches out there that allow themselves to be "bullied" into playing politics(I doubt there are many) I can't say that I know of one first hand. So I don't intend to come on here and accuse anyone of it.

As far as the size of the school, I'm not sure that it really matters.
To me, its a matter of integrity.

You guys will have to forgive me, it took me nearly an hour to type this post. I'm a very slow typist and a computer illiterate to boot.:D

[NCBBallFan]

Originally posted by rcbbfan
You guys will have to forgive me, it took me nearly an hour to type this post. I'm a very slow typist and a computer illiterate to boot.:D

:D :D :D

Reminds me of the old joke..."Ma, I'm writin you this letter real slow cause I know you don't read too fast":D :D :D

Keep 'em comin rbc......thanks

[DodgerBlues]

This is a good thread -- there is not an easy answer. There are politics in everything, and baseball is no different, particularly when our kids are involved. No matter how much integrity a coach has, this is still quite a balancing act. Are you playing Johnny more than Joey because his dad spent 4 hours cleaning up the field for you the other day, or do you really think Johnny's a little better? Did you pinch hit Tim in the 5th inning instead of Todd so you wouldn't have to deal with the call from Tim's dad that night, or did you really think Tim was more likely to get on? There are always decisions made that raise eyebrows :saywhat: and whether the coach is just wrong despite the best of intentions (it happens), or politics had an impact -- is hard to say.

I've been on both sides of this -- as a youth sports coach dealing with tough, in-your-face, always-critical parents :ass: or the overly friendly, overly involved parents :handjob: (not sure which are worse) and wondering whether my decisions were being influenced. I can tell you I think I usually went the other way -- rewarding the kids who worked hard and whose parents were supportive and willing to help when asked, and bending over backward to make sure the jerk parent or the overbearing parent didn't influence me. But I can't say I have always been able to block out the politics and act as if they didn't exist -- they do and they can be quite a distraction.:fart:

On the other side, as a dad I've had to bite my tongue at times and not do what I wanted to do the most -- call and ask a coach what in the world he was thinking when he did something I didn't agree with involving one of my kids. No question I made the right decision not making those calls, but it was very tough.

At the end of the day, parents who play politics only hurt their kids in the long run. Sure there might be some short-term gain, but, eventually, in sports and in life, our kids are going to have to learn to make it on their own and to deal with adversity when it arises. Better to learn those lessons first on the baseball field in high school (or better yet, little league) than lots of places they'll be in the future.

So my friendly advice is this -- support your kids positively, remind them that life is not always fair, teach them to love the game and to make a contribution in whatever way they can -- whether by hitting home runs and pitching no-hitters or by carrying the towels and cheering on their peers. Don't pressure them to achieve and don't "help" them with the coach or confront the coach critically. Participate in parent group activities that help out and contribute in group fundraisers if you're able. "Volunteer" only if the coach asks for volunteers and, if you want to do something "special" for the program, do it annonymously or wait until your kid graduates. You'll enjoy it more, they'll enjoy it a lot more, and you'll both be better off. :D:happy:

[Braves]

What a great post Dodgerblue...I was just going to say the same thing :D

Seriously, you hit all the heads, on all the nails

[NCBBallFan]

Do you guys know the history and the rules for Switch Pitching

:lurking: It's Ok to discuss this aloud in class.

:anon: The masked historian!!!

[Braves]

I had a reply, but I think I'll keep that one to myself:)

Did it start with Babe Ruth or before that..like maybe Originals childhood days

[NCBBallFan]

Score 1 run for Braves. He IS CORRECT! It does go back aways but I'm not interested in that time. I am afraid that it even pre-dates originals childhood, but it's only occurred once in the majors since 1900.

Ancient History: Three pitchers, Larry Corcoran, Elton Chamberlin & Tony Mullane did it in the 19th century, but when they broke in to the bigs, pitchers threw from a box area that was between 45-50 feet from home and there was no mound. Pitchers threw underhanded, The batter got to tell the pitcher where he wanted the ball and fouls were not counted as strikes (ever wonder why records before the modern-area are pretty meaningless...that's why).

There are two episodes remaining to be discovered: Since 1900, who? What major leaguer, regardless of level, was the most extreme example of "switch pitching".

Also, what's the rules.

[Braves]

The most recent was Greg Harris of Montreal in'95...as a side note, he ended his career at the end of that year.

The most interesting was Paul Richards, an Oriole GM. He won both games of a doubleheader. I believe throwing right handed the first game.

I didn't realize the rule has changed

[Braves]

Bear with me, this may be a long post:

Coaches by and large seem to select positions by a particular quality

1st base- Big hitter, can scoop bounced balls
2nd base- good hands and feet, weak arm
ss - good hands, good feet, strong arm
3rd- good hands, strong hitter, slow feet
catcher- fat kid, good hitter
outfielder- can catch flyballs
Pitcher- throw strikes

There are exceptions to these qualities, but those are the stereotypes

But which position gets the least amount of coaching?

My opinion is the outfielders. They genuinely are told to "shag flies and back up throws", but are not taught the fundamentals. Picking up the arc of the ball in flight. Picking up the spin. Windy days. How to get a jump on the ball. Watching pitch location. Where to be on every thrown ball? etc, etc... I just don't believe they get near enough attention.

What positions do you feel are the least taught ?

[NCBBallFan]

Grandslam.... Bottom of the 9th "Braves win..Braves win"

There is no rule. When Harris got approval to switch pitch, MLB gave guidelines to the umpires to keep the batter & pitcher from switching between every pitch and prolonging the game but no rules were adopted.

[Prepster]

I look at it two ways:

In terms of the AMOUNT of time taken with the teaching of the position, I'd agree that it's the outfield that suffers.

However, relative to what players NEED to know to really excell at their position, I'd say it's the catchers. If you've ever seen a major league catcher work with high school catchers, you know what I mean.

[NCBBallFan]

#1. Catcher (terribly inadequate coaching knowledge and instruction)

#2. Third base (most coaches just throw a player out there...once he proves he has the reflexes to handle the hot corner, they just hit him ground balls in practice ... no instruction - he's on his own).

[allrightnow]

You all are probably right that outfielders get the least amount of instruction. Probably because a coach doesn't know how for one thing and relies on the hope that his outfielders can run down a fly ball and catch it at the same time when they were mis-positioned to start with.

3B is another one of those positions that isn't coached well along with the catcher. I've seen pitching coaches who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

As to your stereotypes Braves:

1st base- Big hitter, can scoop bounced balls
A first baseman has to be as fearless as the 3Bman. First base also seems to have the reputation of being the least athletic guy on the field.

2nd base- good hands and feet, weak arm
I agree, but in reality, a good 2Bman has at least as good an arm as the SS. They usually seem to be the weakest hitter on a club a lot of times.

ss - good hands, good feet, strong arm
The SS is usually the best athlete on the team with a good bat in addition to the qualities you listed.

3rd- good hands, strong hitter, slow feet
A 3Bman has to be fearless, they also have to be quick in their reactions to a hard hit ball or they get killed. It doesn't hurt for them to smart as well.

catcher- fat kid, good hitter
You're right, coaches usually put the fat kid behind the plate, like the one old Boilermaker put behind the plate in the Bad News Bears, I can't think of his name. In reality, catchers need to have mobility and quickness. IMHO, they should also be one of the smartest kids on the team. The catcher is the one player that can see the ball in front of every player and can see the whole field. He is the traffic cop of the team and ought to be the general calling the shots. He has to know what a batter did in his previous at-bat and he has to know his pitcher's ability to get the job done on that particular day. If there was ever a coach on the field it is this position.

outfielder- can catch flyballs
Speed doesn't hurt and depth perception is critical. The best outfielders don't immediately judge a ball visually. They do it by sound. They know a strong sharp sound is a well hit ball and they are off to the races as they pick it up visually. I know one high school kid that can do this and realizes he can do it. He is very good.

Pitcher- throw strikes
Throwing strikes is definitely a plus, but smart pitching along with a good catcher is worth its weight in gold to me. You can't just throw strikes, you have to make a batter think you're throwing strikes and make him chase the occasional bad pitch. The pitcher that throws strikes consistently is going to get killed late in the game when he's tired and running out of gas. That's why running is so important for pitchers. They have to learn how to pace themselves too.

[Braves]

I was being facetious in the generalization of the sterotypes.

..and I certainly agree with your opinion of a good catcher. But it seems that there are pitching coaches, catching coaches and fielding coaches that are good in teaching fundamentals and tricks of the trade. But it is rare on the HS level to see a coach spend quality time with the outfielders; teaching the fundamentals and tricks of the trade. The most common theme is " go shag balls"

But what the heck do I know. I'm biased.. I was one of those " go shag balls for awhile, then hit a few"

[allrightnow]

No offense intended Braves, you were right on in your stereotypes. I was adding my opinion of what the position really needed and what a coach needed to look for.

Outfielders are kind of left to their own devices to figure out how to play the position. In your stereotypes we needed to go a step farther and stereotype the outfielders

LF - Not good enough to be an infielder
CF - Fastest player on the team
RF - You sentence the worst player on the team to RF

In reality all of them need good speed and arms, and the RF probably should have the gun on him over the other two positions. I guess they get less coaching because they only have 2 things to do: catch the ball and get it back in. I realize that is overly simplistic, but is basically the case. I guess the more flies you shag the better you are at it. Maybe that's the coaching philosophy there. I'll bet there are very few coaches that can teach a kid to play the ball off of the "sound" of the contact. I'd even bet there are even fewer that have ever heard of the concept. If I can find the article I read about that, I'll post the link.

It's another good discussion question though.

[allrightnow]

I don't know if this will change to a hyperlink or not. It is a link to the story about outfielders playing by sound as well as visual cues.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jun2001/nf20010628_637.htm

[Braves]

good story..I wish they could have related the sound to a metal bat....Ping and Pong

[NCBBallFan]

Another common rotation I've seen for RF is the next game's pitcher. Has a strong arm but won't see a lot of action. The arm is there if you need it but hopefully, he won't have to use it. (Particularly if your pitchers are good hitters - which is the case usually in H.S.)

[SabreFan]

To all of you guys above:

I agree with all of you on your baseball position analyses except with your COMPLETE description and analysis of the catcher stereotype. Open your eyes! The fat catcher of olden days has long pasted and have been told so many, many times by college coaches and scouts unless you have a high school team that is less than adequate!

Sure a catcher has to be smart, a good hitter, and is the traffic cop of the team! But the catchers of modern day times are now mean, lean and quick! A rigorous workout by catchers is now very much essential, as upper body strength is a necessity at this position (as well as other positions too, of course). Fast movement behind the plate for passed balls and the quick pop times down to second from home are essential qualities in a catcher these days which leaves no room for heavy and chubby catchers these days. If your team does have a fat catcher, you will surely be burned on defense behind the plate! Usually one of the quickest and strongest players on college baseball teams these days is the catcher! Put you don't have to take my word for it...just look around!

[statefan]

In some areas your steryotypes are right, but there are some things that arent true, in my opinion:

1st: usually ur big hitter, but thats because thats where they stick the guys who cant play anywhere else when there older but can straight pole. in high school it depends our first baseman this year is smaller and can hit for average, hit around .370 last year, but no bombs. you dont need the long ball to win high school games thats a different story. last year our first baseman was dh'ed for, but was a heck of a defensive 1st baseman, guess it depends on the coach.

2nd: quick feet definately, good hands is a must, but a good arm is absolutely necessary. RELAYS AND BASERUNNING win or lose ball games, so if ur team has a 2nd baseman with a weak harm, good luck, with our team we'll exploit that. offense does vary, our 2nd baseman is a great 2 hole hitter, he's clutch plus he can move runners over.

SS: USUALLY your best athlete but not always. speed and an arm are important. strong leader. strong defense is important for the SS, offense is a plus but does not have to be an offensive powerhouse.

3rd: if you have a 3B with slow feet, your in trouble. any team that has a good coach or one that has any sense will again exploit that disadvanage. unless you have a great athlete on the mound u could bunt all over a slow 3B. plus i agree that 3B's must have good reactions, but its and oxymoron to say slow 3B with good reactions. traditionally ur corner guys have the most power, which i think holds true for the most part. the one thing that stands out most in a 3B has to be the arm.

Catcher: good leader is a must, as is a good arm, but the arm means nothing without accuracy and quick feet. if u have a catcher with all 3, ur in good shape. a good pop time what most coaches evaluate kids on these days. traditionally ur catchers dont have a whole lot of speed due to the wear and tear on the knee, but htere are some occasional freaks. offense usually varies. being a pitcher i think ur catcher must be able to receive well, plus he must be smart, remeber hes callin ur game.

pitcher: the most impotant thing for a pitcher is strikes, a pitcher must also have a good tempo, i hate when i see guys take a week to throw a pitch and then get mad when an error is made, its partly his fault for puttin his players to sleep. pitchers gotta be smart, able to read hitters, and call a good game, although some coaches help out here. velocity always helps, but if u throw strikes and ur ball isnt straight as an arrow, u should be successful, hte addtion of an offspeed pitch is necessary.

LF: i think he is usually ur weakest arm, not necessarilly the slowest but more then likely so, most LF have good sticks.

CF: best defensive outfielder, usually with the most speed. traditionally the guys up the middle of the field were ur defense, but baseball has changed a lot of CF can mash

RF: best arm in the outfield, speed not necessary, but definately will take the kid farther, most of the time they got a good stick.

dont mean to offend anyone these are just my opinion

[Braves]

Hey guys, you're mssing the point of the topic. It's least coached position, not position stereotypes or I would have gone into much more detail about that.

Based on the responses, I guess the stereotype topic would have been better and I wouldn't have glossed over it.

Listen, I agree with the descriptions, partcularly the catcher. Actually, there is no room for that fat guy anymore in baseball, except one......the coach!..and you rarely see that anymore

[allrightnow]

Braves, your original stereotypes do a very good job at pointing out coaching biases and what used to be very ingrained thought. Basically they were a Little League coaching strategy that still works, to some extent, today, even for coaches of older kids. Thinking more about it, you can point to some of those stereotypes and can see the positions that get more coaching than the others. Coaches seem to spend more time on the better athletes and the original stereotypes point those out, true or not.

Which positions that receive more, or less, coaching is probably going to depend on the team's makeup. If the outfielders are competent, then they'll get less attention. As long as they're running them down and catching the ball, coach is going to be satisfied. That's more time to spend somewhere else.

Football has position coaches to help each position while baseball usually has two coaches, three at the most. And there's a good chance that at least one of the coaches doesn't know his head from his ass, compunding the coaching problems.

Part of the coaching problem, as I see it, is the kids who don't start that may not be getting the necessary coaching to make them better. Getting yelled at for missing a ball isn't coaching. At least it isn't good coaching.

[gonzo]

Braves, I have to agree that overall outfield is the least coached postition. IMHO, most of the coaches around never played outfield. What is the first thing they do at practice, split the groups. So the coach never heard the lessons, and the stereotype about outfielders is "go catch the ball and get it back in now". I have had the good fortune to see some quality outfielders for several years now and they do make a difference when coached properly. How many times have we seen a throw down to second get by in a West Charlotte game, yet there stands the runner, because Matt Wiley was PLAYING his position, backing up second. How many times have we seen Rob Davis backup up errant throws past the 1st baseman from his right field position.

But I also agree with Prepster. Catchers have the most to learn, but most coaches do not have the intricate details in their mind to be able to properly prepare a catcher for higher leverl baseball.

[Braves]

Thanks guys..great responses.

[fatman]

Senior leadership, what a topic! My experience is that the underclassmen look to the veterans to set the tone.

When the younger folks were freshmen and sophomores, probably playing JV ball, they probably watched the varsity practicing and playing and, those who were real ballplayers, couldn't wait to move up and play at that level. Most of the freshmen and many sophomores were physically smaller and less mature, and probably were impressed how far the varsity players could hit, throw, field, and run.

When they mature a bit, and are able to play varsity ball, they move to a higher level of competition, similar from going from rec league regular season to all-star tournements where they see a strong line-up from lead off to #10 hitter, rarely any weak links. Their game has to be kicked up a notch.

Upperclassmen, especially seniors, need to be aware that these younger players need to be shown how to compete in the higher level of competition. This is shown by actions, rather than be told what's needed to compete successfully. This starts with off season conditioning, drills, etc. It continues with non-coached get togethers to work out, long toss, bp, etc.

Coaches can only manage the talent, they can't coach desire or work ethic. This needs to be passed down from older players to the younger ones to establish a tradition.

The way the coaching carousel is in the CMS system, I can't see any other way.

Enthusiam and team spirit is contagious and begins with the veterans. When I go to high school games, the teams I appreciate most are the ones who you see standing at the dugout fence cheering their mates on. You can tell by the enthusiam if this is the players idea or if the've been instructed to do so by the coach.

Once the tradition is established, it's hard to destroy a program. Look at I, Butler, South, Providence, etc. The younger ballplayers can't wait to play for these teams. Though the coach can run the program, the veterans carry the tradition.

[playme]

top of the 7th, u r the home team...runners 1st and 2nd..no outs..game tied 0-0....what do u do?

[statefan]

sorry braves,
back to the topic i believe the least coached position hast to be the catcher, there are only a select few who really no how to teach catchers. most guys who were good catchers in high school switched positions in college because he was to good an athlete, also most coaches around the area, were middle infielders or pitchers, go figure.

[DodgerBlues]

Here are my votes:
Least taught -- outfield
Worst taught -- catcher
Most over-coached -- pitcher

And baserunning -- largely ignored yet so, so important.

One of my "mantras" to players has always been -- "baserunners are precious." Nothing gets to me more than seing a guy get picked off or a guy thrown out on a stupid baserunning play. Still, most coaches leave it to the players to react in the game without talking about when to go from first to third on a hit, when to score on a hit, why to freeze on a line drive, why to never make the third out at third, etc. -- the game situation is so important to the baserunner (outs, whose hitting, count, where the fielders are) but "thinking baserunning" is becoming a lost art -- it seems now to be challenge, challenge, challenge, even if you run into stupid, big-inning-killing outs.

One of my favorite sayings is that "baseball is the most overcoached and undertaught sport" -- I think Branch Rickey said that first. Nothing could be more true.

[NCBBallFan]

I gotta agree with Dodgerblue..... You nailed it 100%.

[cc12501]

1. Can the kid at the plate bunt, because if he can he should be.
2. Who's on deck? If it's a bad hitter maybe you let the kid at the plate swing away.

I'd have to say in a 0-0 game that the man at the plate should be bunting.

[SouthPawDad]

DodgerBlues hit the nail on the head with "least, worst and over".

My son's travel team works on defense by position. Each out fielder is worked on what angles to take to both fly balls and groundballs. Angles for left fielders are not the same as for rightfielders and totally different for centerfielders.

Catchers are worked with alone and then with the infielders. Pitchers are worked over and over on fielding their postion and exactly where to go when the ball is put into play.

First and third are coached on where they should position themselves depending on the situation; hitter, outs, score, inning. etc.

High school coaches don't seem prepared to just work on one situation for an entire practice, i.e., fielding bunts or 1st and 3rd situations. These need to be reinforced at some point each week, but that rarely happens. It seems that "batting practice" is more important and takes more time than learning the game. And don't even go into not teaching kids how to run the bases!!

[NCBBallFan]

You're on defense...0-0..The other team is trying to make a "productive out"...get men on 2nd & 3rd with one out (probably). You have to defend the bunt and take that away as much as possible and depend on your reactions & reflexes in case they don't bunt.

Crash bunt coverage...1st charges on the pitch, has right side, pitcher has left side... 2nd has to cheat towards 1B and rolls to cover 1B, SS cheats up the middle toward 2B, 3B bluffs the charge and stays home. Try to get the lead runner if at all possible but GET AN OUT SOMEWHERE.

[SouthPawDad]

I believe if you're the home team you're in the field.

1st and 3rd in on the grass. Who's holding the runner at 2nd depends on the hitter, LH or RH. The hitter, if not sacrificing, should be trying to hit the ball to the right side.

If it's a bunt to 3rd do you run a "wheel" with the shortstop? Depends on how hard the bunt. Ball up the middle, play for two and let runner advance to 3rd. Ball directly to SS or backhand, take out at 3rd (depending on jump). Ball to 2nd, roll two. Ball to backhand hole, take the out at first. Bunt to 1B, depends on speed and distance. Maybe play to 3rd or 2nd, depending on jumps.

Where did my pitcher and 2nd basemen go to cover? Where'd the ball go?!

[SouthPawDad]

Depends on the team. At Ashbrook their are only a couple of seniors and they follow the lead of the juniors, who were also the team leaders as sophomores. These juniors are basically the kids who play yearround, who from the first day of school this fall, took their bats, gloves and shoes to school, and challenged, by example, all who wanted to be better to come work out.

It's the kids who show up when it's raining and try to get into the gym to throw. It's the kids, when it's cold outside, who bring their tennis shoes and head to the football stadium to run the track or the dredded "steps".

It's the pitcher who pats the infielder on the butt who just booted an easy groundball, or the kid who high fives his teammate for laying down a sac bunt.

Coaches can't teach or "will" this on a team, the players know and that's the kid they look to for leadership.

[Applejack]

Base-running is one of the least taught fundamentals in the game but it's one of the most important. ( Remember Lonnie Smith?)
I was fortunate enough to learn from one of the best because when I was not scheduled to pitch I was used quite frequently as a pinch runner.
I had the privilege of learning the art of base-running from Maury Wills and Davey Lopes.
They taught reading pitchers, rounding bags, one way leads, getting back to the bag on pick off attempts, hit and run, noting where the outfielders are playing on particular pitches, steal counts, delayed steals, watching outfielders arms during their warm-ups to see if they are "runnable arms". etc.....

[Braves]

Originally posted by DodgerBlues
Most over-coached -- pitcher

True..yet still aren't getting proper information

[DodgerBlues]

Agreed (I intentionally said "overcoached, not "over taught"). It is amazing to me how many coaches try to coach mechanics --without a real clue as to what they're talking about. I overheard a high school jv coach who is really a football coach telling a really good young pitcher that he needed to change his "arm slot." Jeez. But what really gets me is how high school coaches now almost all insist on calling pitches from the dugout -- guess they can see and sense a lot more from an angle 75 feet away than their pitchers and catchers can from on top the play.

You guys might disagree with me on this, but here goes. My view -- let the catcher make the call -- a firm suggestion, and make the pitcher be accountable for the pitches -- keep both of their minds in the game. One high school coach told me he started calling pitches because his pitchers wouldn't throw enough change-ups. Good point, but cure that by telling the pitcher and catcher you want a good dose of change-ups -- don't call every pitch. Do you really want your pitcher to throw a pitch he's not personally committed to? He's not going to shake you off -- he will shake off his catcher if he doesn't like the call. Another risk to calling pitches from the dugout -- you better be
good -- one high school assistant, a good young coach who pitched for a living for a while, told me he had every opponent coach's signs from the bench last year by the third inning. Probably an exaggeration, but it is a real risk.

Applejack, you want to weigh in on this one?

[Braves]

You've got my VOTE Dodgerblue:D ..of course, you already knew that!

[Braves]

Here you go DodgerBlue. This was AJ's response from another thread

Braves,
I think at the high school level it all depends on the maturity level of the pitcher.
Most guys at the high school level are throwers. If they are truly gifted it does not matter if the coach calls the pitch or not because they are basically getting by off natural God given talent.
Scouts like to see kids that challenge hitters and succeed because if they have the God given talent... you can always teach them how to pitch.
Let me put it this way, I've seen ** pitch on the side. He has the talent but he also has an idea as to what he wants to do with a hitter and where he wants to put the ball when doing it. I'd let ** call their game out there and analize the game afterwards by going over with him the hitters he faced and game film so that all season will be a learning process whether he wins or loses, same scenario.

[Braves]

Another response from AJ about the same topic

"It is a learning experience. For awhile, they seem to fall in love with a pitch' NCBballFan

This is one of the reasons that I personally would call pitches at this age level.
The fact remains that sooner or later a young pitcher of this age group could possibly develop a breaking pitch of some kind and fall in love with it. His arm more than likely can't tolerate the pressure of throwing a breaking ball and possibly ruin an arm.

At the major league level, catchers suggest what they would like for a pitcher to throw. Granted if the pitcher is fairly young and the catcher has vast experience then logically the young pitcher will go with the experienced catcher. This is one of the reasons I suggest all pitchers and catchers sit together between innings briefly to discuss hitters, situations, pitches etc... so that they will both be on the same page.

If this has worked for you in the past go for it. Do not fix a clock if it is'nt broken.

[SouthPawDad]

We've already discussed in this thread that the catcher is the "least taught" position, so when did they learn to call pitches? For that matter, when did the pitcher learn to call his own game? Until they both "learn the rules" neither is in a position to call a game.

So what are the "rules"? Throw 1st pitch strikes. Box the count. Get early contact. Establish the fastball. Establish the inside part of the plate. I'd rather see three 1st pitch outs, than three pitches for one out.

Also, I think it takes the pressure off of the pitcher if the coach calls the pitches. Then the pitcher only has to execute. They can shake off a pitch, but they better get good results from the one they choose.

[Applejack]

OK fellas, coaches and pitching coaches have varying opinions on this topic.
The way I go about this is to teach pitchers and catchers, not only about pitching, but all facets of the game. As much as my limited knowledge will allow me to and as often as time and the players will permit me to.
When I was a coach @ the high school level and American Legion,
I never called pitches for a complete game. I did call pitches in certain situations on occasions such as mid to late innings, close game, man on first with one out and a dead pull hitter is up. In this situation I would call pitches possibly, to set up the double play and also to defend against run counts.
Conversely, I would also have my corners play the line and my middle infielders play @ double play depth.
So, certain situations may warrant a coach to call pitches for that at bat but to me, I would not call pitches an entire game.

[Applejack]

Originally posted by Braves
Another response from AJ about the same topic

"It is a learning experience. For awhile, they seem to fall in love with a pitch' NCBballFan

This is one of the reasons that I personally would call pitches at this age level.
The fact remains that sooner or later a young pitcher of this age group could possibly develop a breaking pitch of some kind and fall in love with it. His arm more than likely can't tolerate the pressure of throwing a breaking ball and possibly ruin an arm.

At the major league level, catchers suggest what they would like for a pitcher to throw. Granted if the pitcher is fairly young and the catcher has vast experience then logically the young pitcher will go with the experienced catcher. This is one of the reasons I suggest all pitchers and catchers sit together between innings briefly to discuss hitters, situations, pitches etc... so that they will both be on the same page.

If this has worked for you in the past go for it. Do not fix a clock if it is'nt broken.

Please note that when this statement was made we were discussing kids that are much younger than high school age kids.

[BearBryant]

My opinion is the outfielders. They genuinely are told to "shag flies and back up throws", but are not taught the fundamentals. Picking up the arc of the ball in flight. Picking up the spin. Windy days. How to get a jump on the ball. Watching pitch location. Where to be on every thrown ball? etc, etc... I just don't believe they get near enough attention.

I learned more about baseball and the outfield in my first two weeks of college than I did throughout my whole life up to that point. I remember wishing I could go back to again.

[NCBBallFan]

On this board, we've talked alot about pitching & defense and even covered some baserunning. We haven't covered hitting yet this year.

How do you teach a player to hit a round object (ball) with a round object (bat) sucessfully? What trigger keys do you use? What descriptions have worked best with you or your players to get them to understand what you are talking about?

[BearBryant]

Have to learn to see it before you can hit it. Best advice I ever got was to think you are going to get a fastball every pitch. You can adjust easier if you get an off speed pitch. Try stepping up to the plate looking curve but getting a fastball. You will be standing in the same place with the bat on your shoulders.

[Applejack]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
On this board, we've talked alot about pitching & defense and even covered some baserunning. We haven't covered hitting yet this year.

How do you teach a player to hit a round object (ball) with a round object (bat) sucessfully? What trigger keys do you use? What descriptions have worked best with you or your players to get them to understand what you are talking about?

How to take a round ball and a round bat and hit the ball with the bat square?
The single hardest athletic thing to do. This is why hitting is a science.
One of the hardest things that I have learned to teach a young player is to keep their head down when swinging and see the ball hit the bat. If you can accomplish that first, then you have a great start.

[phantom89]

I saw a clip on Atlanta Brave player Mark DeRosa the other day. He had band-aids all over his chin.When questioned, he told the reporter that every spring his chin stayed torn up from keeping his head down in the batting cage. Eventually, he gets a callous. Applejack's comment made me think about that.

[NCBBallFan]

Understandable about DeRosa.

When you are tracking the ball, your head will rotate back towards the catcher while your shoulder is rotating through the ball

[Braves]

The best training advice is the most simple; Hit off a tee..over and over and over. I know it's a science and I'm sure other posters will make some great comments about the technical aspects ( Rotational vs Linear ) triggers and such, but give me Tee practice for hand/eye coordination to get started

[rcbbfan]

I'm sure all you guys know more about this subject than me, so is it fair to say that some (most?) HS coaches tend to coach what they know (or knew) as a player? I mean if a coach was a middle infielder is he a better middle infield coach than an outfield coach.
Most on here have agreed that catchers are the worst coached. Maybe it's because most HS coaches weren't catchers.
My son has been very fortunate that his HS coach was a good D1 catcher and his legion coach was a catcher in the Braves and Mets organizations. The best thing is the consistancy of what they both teach.
Do good players make good coaches? Does a good coach even have to have been a player at all?
I'm not trying to be a smart ***. I'm just curious what you think.

[Braves]

I'd like to make one more comment before we get into the technical aspect.

There are so many theories on hitting and most people tap in to what they are most comfortable with. You will find many knowledgeable coaches and instructors who can't even agree where to put your back elbow ( up or down)..NCBball..hehe

Personally, I look at each hitter and their styles. I look for any major "holes" and just try to get them to relax. As long as there are no major fundamental flaws, I just work with quickening their bat drills, hand/eye coordination, muscle memory and forgetting about everything they learned and go up to the plate, "see it- hit it" and hopefully their muscle memory will do what their thought process is telling them.

You can be the best hitting instructor in the world, but if you can't get your player to understand and "feel" what you are saying, forget it...you're wasting each others time.

There are some excellent instructors who know how to "communicate" their wisdom and there are others who might as well be talking to a wall....I guess there are coaches like that, too! Knowledge without communication skills is worthless.

[NCBBallFan]

Braves: I agree with you totally
(for the most part (with exceptions (kinda))).

Your basic hitting style is ususally set between the ages of 10-14, so, in H.S., what you see is what you get. If your a rotational coach and have a group of linear hitters, you aren't going to have the time to change them sucessfully during the course of a season. The reverse is true also.

Players, you have to ride the horse home that brought you to the dance.

That said, there are certain things I look for in players to increase bat speed and improve timing & tempo, but this will vary according to your swing.

Finally, it's hard initially to differentiate between swing and style. If you look at Jeff Bagwell, that is a style I would NEVER encourage any player to adopt, but he sure can smack the ball. He has adopted a style to overcome weaknesses in his swing. When you look at him at contact, you can't imagine how he torqued his body to get from his starting position to his finish. He can do that because he understood his swing. The opposite end of the spectrum was Cal Ripkin. His swing changed every season (and sometimes seemed to change every week). He also understood his swing to the point that he could "tinker" with it.

The goal of any hitting coach is to get the player to understand what he is doing at the plate... not trying to make a cookie-cutter hitter out of him.

[rcbbfan]

Tracking the ball all the way to the point of impact is assential to making solid contact with the bat. I watched several guys struggle to make solid contact for that very reason today. I told one (he ask me) and suggested that he track a couple of pitches without swinging the bat to make sure that that he was seeing the ball all the way in. He did so and proceeded to spank the heck out of the ball. I think that if a player was to make a habit of tracking every pitch to the catchers mit it would be greatly beneficial to his success at the plate. It can also tell you where the catcher is setting up and possibly give some insight to how you might be pitched to.
Hand/eye coordination is an absolute must in this game and from the hitting stand point I agree with Braves that there is no better tool than a tee.

[Braves]

Sorry guys about the multiple posts, but this topic brought back memories

There was this one hitting coach I had that was very colorful. Between the chewing, spitting and wiping his mouth, there were not a lot of words that came out and most of those were four letters. He mumbled a lot and you were never sure he was talking to you because you could only hear him as he waddled passed you. I rarely saw him at the cages, but if you asked for his help, he would come over. Well, I asked for his help one day and he said, " %#@#%&". I took that as okay and went to the cage. After hitting a couple buckets of balls, I kept waiting for him to say something. I stopped and walked over and asked him, " what do ya think". He spit on my shoes, looked up and garbled, " what the #%$#$ are you wastin' my time for. If'n it's a strike, hit the g#$#%$#$ ball. And pick up all those D#$%$ balls, too"...and his sage advice worked.

[NCBBallFan]

Regardless of technique, half of hitting (if not more) requires the proper use of what has been described as the the largest muscle in the male body. With out incorporating this vital muscle in your hitting, your are doomed to fail. This muscle resides between your left and right ear.

[playme]

This is a definate bunt situation....are u playing for 1 run?

[Original]

Do good players make good coaches?
Hmmmm...Some yes...some no...depends upon the individual. Some players are great players but terrible teachers.

Does a coach have to have played baseball? I would think yes ...Most business managers didn't start out as managers they worked their way through the rank and file..... Same with military.....that's why I think the same with coaches.
Fundamental understanding and life experience. NOW....do I think coaches should have continuing education? ABSOLUTELY!:cool:

[Original]

There are some excellent instructors who know how to "communicate" their wisdom and there are others who might as well be talking to a wall....I guess there are coaches like that, too! Knowledge without communication skills is worthless




BRAVES...that was a profound & true statement...
Seriously.....we are talking baseball and life!:cool:

[Original]

NCBBALL ....Thank You ....for the clarity on the largest muscle in the male body.....I WAS wondering WHERE you were going with that one BUT thankfully....I read your post in it's entirety.

[Braves]

:roflmao: Oh Original..you are true to your name

[Savio]

Originally posted by Applejack


One of the hardest things that I have learned to teach a young player is to keep their head down when swinging and see the ball hit the bat. If you can accomplish that first, then you have a great start.

Same rule applies for tennis :D

[Original]

DodgerBlue should get an "A" for his post! Braves...sounds like you guys went to the same school.:cool:

[allrightnow]

I like the coaches that tell a kid who is hitting the ball well that . . . "you can't hit like that." And then proceeds to totally change what is working to what he wants.

[Braves]

Have you ever noticed how a kid 6-7-8 yo has a beautiful swing. Then, after 10-15 yo have had so many coaches change their swing, that they are lost.

There is a HS player playing today that had a perfect swing...could really drive the ball at the age of 12. His father had him enrolled in many hitting classes with different instructors. The poor kid plays his position now, but the HS coach DH's for him...and this kid used to crush it.

[Braves]

It's become fashionable these days where the coach fakes the bunt and takes advantage of a charging 3rd baseman. I would keep him at home...and get an out somewhere.

[allrightnow]

I expect there are a bunch of kids in that boat Braves.

I know a kid that was absolutely ripping the ball in practice and the coach told him he couldn't hit like that so he changed to what the coach wanted and couldn't even get around on the ball. Why is it that the idiots feel they have to micromanage everything?

There are obviously coaches on here, why do your colleagues, or possibly you for that matter, insist on trying to fix what ain't broken?

[gonzo]

Originally posted by allrightnow
[
There are obviously coaches on here, why do your colleagues, or possibly you for that matter, insist on trying to fix what ain't broken? [/B]

Ego. They think if he can hit that good, I can make him even better if he will just follow my rules.

[Braves]

Exactly

[NCBBallFan]

You have a 14 year old who is a marvelous athlete. He just arrived in the U.S. after living abroad in Nepal with his parents who are both avid baseball fans. He has never touched a baseball, but can throw a stone 250 feet.

He wants to learn HOW TO HIT!!

Where do you start?

[BearBryant]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
You have a 14 year old who is a marvelous athlete. He just arrived in the U.S. after living abroad in Nepal with his parents who are both avid baseball fans. He has never touched a baseball, but can throw a stone 250 feet.

He wants to learn HOW TO HIT!!

Where do you start?

whiffle ball

[imking4aday]

Originally posted by BearBryant


whiffle ball

totally...but you gotta drink some beers to play effectively

[NCBBallFan]

Originally posted by imking4aday


totally...but you gotta drink some beers to play effectively

No. At these guys age, they gotta watch Me drink the beers.:cheers:

[Applejack]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
You have a 14 year old who is a marvelous athlete. He just arrived in the U.S. after living abroad in Nepal with his parents who are both avid baseball fans. He has never touched a baseball, but can throw a stone 250 feet.

He wants to learn HOW TO HIT!!

Where do you start?

Don't teach him how to hit.
Put a glove on his hand and teach him location.;)

[NCBBallFan]

Originally posted by Applejack


Don't teach him how to hit.
Put a glove on his hand and teach him location.;)

LOL :jump:

Ok, Ok, but they were "light" rocks......(leave it to a pitcher to find the hole in my description of the potential player - they are trained to find holes in hitters!:D :D )

[DodgerBlues]

Take him to Mike Shildt

[DodgerBlues]

Thanks, Original. I haven't gotten one of those in a long time.

[DodgerBlues]

I am a "see it and hit it" guy, too, and I agree that if it ain't broke don't fix it. But I have seen a lot of little leaguers who are good athletes that just rip the ball hitting off the front foot and pulling everything. And a lot of their dads want to know why on earth you'd want to change their swing. What is the idea teaching him to stay back and go the other way on the outside pitch?

It is tempting to leave them alone and watch them succeed at the little league level, but if you don't fix it it will get more and more ingrained and they won't have a chance when they get older with anything off speed or on the outer half.

[Braves]

There are quite a few hitters that believe in the Charlie Lau theory of hitting...hitting off the front foot. George Brett, Frank Thomas and Kirk Gibson come to mind.

There are theories to combat theories to hitting a baseball. Personally, I just like to see them hacking. That way I know they are comfortable up there.

If my old coach ( God rest his soul) saw the way some hitters let go of the bat on their follow through, he would have died on the spot. But that's taught, too. You have some hitters that are inside out swingers. Nothing wrong with that, that's their style. But it's not taught.

To me, the bottom line is to be comfortable up there..see it- hit it.

And come see me when you quit feeling comfortable.

[playme]

on teams i coach, my catcher runs the team when in the field, in the dug out he sits next to me, he looks at me before each pitch..this position is the hardest and 1 of the most important on the team...he spends more time on drills than anyone, from catching pens to working on throw downs, to blocking, to framing, to practicing "do or die" plays...on trips to the mound, i talk to the catcher first....no i was not a catcher

outfielders are taught to read the pitches and how to position themselves...if 1 of my outfielders is "bored" during practice or a game; he is not reading situations and positioning himself as they unfold and he will be benched...i did play in the outfield some..

3b is probably the least coached on my teams...he must have quick reflexes and soft hands, throw cross his body while off balance...in practice, he gets rockets hit at him, and know how to read situations

ss and 2b are speed positions, i want someone who can cover from the line to behind 2b..ss must have a strong arm and excellent foot work..they work together on double plays, cut offs, throw downs, holding runners at 2b and picks...

1B like 3b must have quick reflexes, good foot work, soft, quick hands and not afraid to take a ball off the chest; he must be able to keep the ball from going to the fence on errant throws in the dirt, and how to hold runners, and handle picks...

everybody works hard on my team and i expect 100% everytime they cross the white line...

[Applejack]

Add Hank Aaron to Braves list.
All this goes back to what I stated before about pitching coaches,
everyone cannot have the Tom Seaver delivery, everyone cannot have the Dave Justice swing.
There have been a number of players that have been quite successful with unorthodoxed swings and deliveries.
Nothing works better than the tee and the cage.
I know, most of my high school career I was DH'd for because the coach did not think I could hit.
My senior year I told him that if I did not hit for myself that I was not going to play.
I set a school record @ .433 that stood for 10 years all because I worked my butt off with the tee and in the cage.

[BearBryant]

Pete Rose and Rod Carew.

[DodgerBlues]

I didn't mean to open that can of worms. You are all three absolutely right, of course -- many of the best hitters, and almost all of the older hitters, are front foot hitters. I think the best example was Babe Ruth.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

I have a video (no, Braves, I didn't see him live -- but is that you in the background on the front row?) In the video his left (back) foot is completely off the ground at contact and the ball flies out of the park. The incredible thing is to watch how fast his hands get the bat through the stike zone.

Anyway, what I should have described is the kid who shifts his weight early -- he uses his stride to transfer his weight, not to start his swing, and loses all power on any pitch except the fastball. I have no problem with the Lau philosophy -- he's certainly much more knowledgable than I am -- and those who think the weight should be on the front foot at contact. To me it doesn't really matter whether it's still going in that direction or has just gotten there, as long as it isn't already there waiting for the bat to catch up. It's just that it seems to me the "back foot" guys have more margin for error.

Braves -- I think it was one of your examples, George Brett, who said his theory of hitting was to "wait as long as I can and swing as hard as I can." Yeah, he got to the front foot, but he waited as long as he could to get there.

AJ is absolutely on the money, of course. No doubt the most important key is practice, practice, practice. Hard work, coupled with good hand-eye coordination, quick hands, and lots of confidence will give a kid a shot at being a good hitter.

[NCBBallFan]

Then, from the posts so far ......

Is a swing something that you "teach"
(Fundamentals, how its done, etc etc etc)

or something that you "tweak"?
(eliminate any glaring mistakes that will hurt down the line and practice, practice, practice)

I think we all agree that there isn't a cookie cutter approach to hitting. (but I personally am opposed to some "keys" that I think give youngsters the wrong idea).

[Applejack]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
Then, from the posts so far ......

Is a swing something that you "teach"
(Fundamentals, how its done, etc etc etc)

or something that you "tweak"?
(eliminate any glaring mistakes that will hurt down the line and practice, practice, practice)

I think we all agree that there isn't a cookie cutter approach to hitting. (but I personally am opposed to some "keys" that I think give youngsters the wrong idea).

You do both and it's all according to the athlete.
If a kid has some fundamental flaws but is hitting rockets consistently.. ok let's let him try a few strokes with minor adjustments in the cage but don't mess with this kid too much.
Now, if he is hitting cross-handed and can't hit water if he fell out of a boat, Let's break it down to it's purest form, like water, and teach this kid how to hit.

[Braves]

Originally posted by Applejack
I set a school record @ .433 that stood for 10 years all because I worked my butt off with the tee and in the cage.

Just goes to show what scouts know. You set school records in hitting and they make you a Pitcher :D

[Applejack]

Originally posted by Braves


Just goes to show what scouts know. You set school records in hitting and they make you a Pitcher :D

Yea, the Babe started as a pitcher, right? ;)

[Braves]

Originally posted by DodgerBlues
I have a video (no, Braves, I didn't see him live -- but is that you in the background on the front row?) In the video his left (back) foot is completely off the ground at contact and the ball flies out of the park. The incredible thing is to watch how fast his hands get the bat through the stike zone.

I knew where you were coming from Dodger, I was just trying to shake you up a little :D But after that comment about me and the Babe, I might have to shake you up a lot!!!!!

I know you weren't old enough to play with Ruth, but I swear that was you dragging that big ol' lumber of Babe's back to the bat rack

[DodgerBlues]

Over the years I've developed some opinions about certain statistics. I'd like to know what you guys think. Which is most important at the high school level -- slugging percentage, batting average or on-base percentage? About 15 years ago Bill James developed a statistic called "runs produced" that combined lots of offensive categories. Is something like that a better measure?

[DodgerBlues]

This seems to be the newest statistic craze. I love statistics, but I must say that I am suspect of this one. My view is that any statistic that depends on the click of a stopwatch twice within 2 seconds is not going to be very accurate. As with some other statistics (i.e. the 40 yard dash), the more you like a kid, the better his POP time will be, because your thumb has as much to do with it as his throw.

Do you really need this to tell whether a guy can throw somebody out? I love watching Pudge gun guys out, too :hasta: but my fear is that this is becoming all that matters for catchers. I saw an article recently that said its getting around that pitchers don't like throwing to Pudge -- one of the reasons? He's so eager to throw guys out that he doesn't give the ump a look at the location.

I'd rather have a kid who blocks everything, frames well and is in control of the game, even if his POP time is 2.2 rather than 2.0. What do you think - particularly at the high school level?:aorangeha

[NCBBallFan]

I created a computer model 2 years ago and ran it through a seasons statistics for pitching, hitting & defense. I used the formulas from the SABR site and collected the data for hitting, errors, base running, out-on-base (other than CS), pitching and catching (PB's). I keyed in all players on both teams for every game played (12) and reached a statistical norm for calculates that sabr uses like (ERA - League Average ERA).

At the end, what it shows is Runs Produced above/below the statistical average in which the team competed for each player and will show a team Runs Produced differential above or below opponent.

After keying in 12 games "season", ran the stats and the Actual Run difference (team) was about 2% off what was predicted.

What I really found out was that the statistics are curiosities. Unless you have the books, with a group of score keepers who all score the same way and key in every player in the league, it's not accurate - it's just a statistical anomaly.

I have the pgrm around somewhere on my old computer. It was interesting - It used the classic Sabr formulas but the sad truth is that SABR only works for MLB - the formulas don't hold true for youth - college baseball.

At the HS level, The easiest one that I use is (Avg+Slg+OnB / 3)
it gives a composite average measure that is easy to get too without a lot of effort.

For Pitchers, I look at a simple calc: ERA * (RA/ERA) .. It factors in talent, plus the ability to pick up a team-mate who just made an error, but needs an entire season to be meaningful. Changes too rapidly. The on-the-fly calc in mid-season is H+BB/IP

In 9-10 yo baseball, a base-on-balls is not work .24 runs, a stolen base .37 and caught stealing -.48 .... A BB is worth .8 runs period - too many advance on WP & PB for any other stat to be worthwhile. All of the published formulas are for MLB - hard to extrapolate downwards and then creating the fudge factor to compensate for JV vs Var.

I had way too much time on my hands is the real reason......:D :D

[NCBBallFan]

Base runners aren't stealing off the catcher in H.S., they are stealing off the pitcher. Speeds are too close to MLB averages for a lot of our faster guys.

One measure that's easier to take than the pop-time is the unload time of the pitcher. You want it in the 1.15-1.25 seconds. Most HS pitchers (except lefties) are above 1.5

I do believe that you can measure pop times accurately by:
1. Stand in the in-field.
2. Don't watch and anticipate for either position.
3. Go entirely by sound.

Pop-time targets should be based pretty much on grade. A JV player doesn't and shouldn't have the same pop time as a V guy... arm's not as strong.
Good: 2.0 Vars 2.2 JV

[rcbbfan]

I'm going to have to agree with DodgerBlues on this one. Pop times ARE absolutely relevent to who's holding the stop watch. I don't necessarily mean "daddy" as opposed to a coach or scout. I mean do you know how quick .1 sec. is not to mention .01 sec?

I recently attended a pitcher/catcher camp at USC in Columbia. While the catchers were throwing for times a couple of other dads and myself were timing the kids ourselves. It was an eye opening experience for me. While we were always pretty close to what the coach on the field had(+/- .1 sec.) , nobody ever had the same times. There was no set pattern, by that I mean nobody always had a faster time or slower time. On several occassions the other dads had better times for my son than I did and I had better times for their sons than they did. While none of us are professional time keepers I think it proves that it depends on who's holding the watch, whether intentional or not.

I have tried to see how quick my reflexes are by starting a stop watch and as soon as I see 1 sec. on the watch, stop it. It takes a very consistant .3 sec. for me to do so. So that means .6 sec. deviation on the throw. To me that means that variations from one timer to another would be very common. Anticipating the catch on either end of the throw will only compound the variation in times.

I really liked what Coach Tanner said at the camp, "Perception is reallity". No matter what a college coach or pro scouts time is, that's the reallity.

My son once asked a college coach at a showcase camp, "What's a good pop time for D1 catchers"? His answer, "1.8-1.9sec. ,BUT if you can hit that number goes up". So, like most everything else in baseball it's all reletive to what a coach or scout is looking for, a catch and throw catcher, a good defensive catcher who blocks balls well and calls a good game, or a catcher who can flat knock the cover off the ball. And that friends is what really matters.

[NCBBallFan]

Yea - I've heard Coach Tanner make that same statement - he's a great guy.

How important is the pop time? As important as the coach wants it to be....

I agree you will have a variance, but they will tend to average out. You can't take 2-3 readings... Do 10-12 per day over 2 days and throw out the extremes as probably your error and then take the average.

[rcbbfan]

Another thing to consider is that I believe that some kids actually throw the ball better in game situations than they do when throwing for a time. When throwing for a time they often either rush themselves too much or put so much pressure on themselves and end up with a higher time. In a game it's totally a reaction and they don't have time to think about it. After all, it's how they throw in the game that matters.

[allrightnow]

We'll be measuring reaction times at 3B next, and I thought the object of playing ball was to have fun.

My question is, if a kid doesn't meet these arbitrary times, does that hold him back him from the next level . . . or even the present level?

Baseball is getting way too technical for me these days. I liked it better when all you had to do was catch the ball, throw the ball, and hit the ball. Now catchers have to worry about their pop time.

[NCBBallFan]

IMHO, like any other measurement, the pop time is just one of a number of things that scouts look at. They are looking at blocking, framing, leadership, hitting, technique, accuracy, footwork, arm strength, poise, etc.

What I think is the most important (and why players have to be evaluated in person during a game) is game instincts, particularly behind the plate.

Each of these will receive a "number" for what the scout thinks is their present ability and he will try to "project" what they will look like as they mature.

We hear about pop times all the time because it's the one objective (versus subjective) measurement so it's an easy comparison. It's not the most important, but it's not ignored.

A catchers pop time compares to a pitchers fast ball velocity. It's the one thing every one wants to know about a pitcher - how hard does he throw. The FB velocity doesn't give you any idea of how well he can pitch. Ditto the pop time if the catcher throws half of them into right center field.

When they measure pop times, they will, at the same time, measure accuracy and report both. As you go on to higher levels, you find out that everything is important - they want you go be complete players. Everything is important, but not critical. If you don't have a good pop time, they may also see a footwork change that can cut .2 off your pop (they will report that also in your projections). They are pretty thorough.

[NCBBallFan]

Here are some attributes for position players. Some are tools and some are skills which is a lot different. A lot of attributes are subjective calls. What are your favorites, or what do you see as the most important?

Tools Categories: Running Speed, Raw Power, Hitting Ability, Fielding Ability, Arm Strength.

Application of Tools Categories: Baserunning, Power production, Fielding Range.

General baseball/personal attributes: Aptitude, Work Ethic, Self Confidence, Agressiveness, Baseball Instincts, Poise, Mental Toughness, Character

[Up and In]

Very well said NCBballFan.

One attribute of a position player that goes along with some that you mentioned would be "ability to handle failure". There sooo many good position players who will make an error and hang his head or make another immediately after. One of the attributes that seperates a good position player and a great position player is the ability to pick yourself up immediately after an error and want the next ball. The ball will find you! Along with picking yourself up, you must have the ability to recognize when a fellow position player is down on himself and pick him up. Too many times a teammate or a coach will get on a player for a physical mistake and "chew him out". It is your job as a fellow position player and as a teammate to "pick him up" after a teammate makes a mistake. By doing that, your/ your teammate will make the next play(s), your pitcher will throw less pitches, your teammate(s) will remain confident and your defense will give up less runs.

Just another little thing that can change the outcome of a game.

[NCBBallFan]

Great observation Up ....

Your a pitcher (from your screen name) .... What about a pitcher picking up a position player by bearing down and not letting in that "un-earned run"....???? Another application of the same thing hunh?

[highntight]

NCBBFAN: One of the hardest one to find is the player who wants to have the bat in his hands or have the ball hit to them in game swinging situations! Do you think this is learned or born with ability.

[NCBBallFan]

tight - you triggered a memory with your question.

Back in '83, Pedro Guerrero was playing 3B for the Dodgers, Steve Sax played 2B. Sax was in the middle of that "throwing slump" that was so famous. He'd make all the difficult plays, but the easy ones, he threw the ball into the stands, that sort of thing. (Sax corrected this).

Pedro started his own defensive "slump" that season. He was interviewed during the season and the reporter asked him about what he thought about at the crack of the bat. Here's his quote.

"First, I hope they don't hit it to me and then I think, 'I hope they don't hit it to Sax.' "

....Those attributes you desribe are aggressiveness and self confidence - they are critical to a ball-player.

corrected typo

[Braves]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
Those attributes you describe are aggressiveness and self confidence

All the great players have this...much like a basketball player wanting to take the last shot.

I believe this was developed at an early age and stayed with them. Some of the best athletes may be very good players, but lack this skill. Kevin Garnett is a good example...others like Clemens, Martinez, Rose want the opportunity to rise to the occasion. Hence the term (Clutch players)

...and to relate this to HS ballplayers. This is something I look for when watching performances. The fact that they may lose or fail doesn't concern me. It's how they competed. Those are the Players to respect.

[Braves]

I agree with you DodgerBlue. It's just another flavor of the month statistic...much like 60 yard times.

It is a measurement and so there is some validity attributed to it, but it's one of many factors culminated in to projecting a good catcher.

I had this conversation with a scout about JK Whited. Now, JK is not the biggest, nor has the fastest POP time, so some scouts were overlooking him. What JK has, that most of his peers don't, is in handling of pitchers. This kid is light years ahead of most in understanding how to control his pitcher and what pitching calls to make. Unfortunately, many scouts play down this importance and place more emphasis on POP times. Just goes to show, that in some cases, scouts were hired by who they knew, not what they knew.

[NCBBallFan]

Braves you've got a good point.

I wonder about a lot of assoc scouts (the unpaid kind)...If they don't have detailed knowledge of the position, the only thing they can report is "general impressions" and objective measurements.

I would hope that the Area Scout would be aware of the limitations of his various Associate Scouts when evaluating certain position players (i.e. pitcher/catcher). Like everyone, they have their strengths and weaknesses.

IMHO: Have a former pitcher or catcher scout pitchers/catchers.

[Braves]

I also understand that nobody wants to jeopardize their jobs. Objective measurements are the best tools to ensure some security....but it stills comes down to " is he a player". It's a crap shoot at best.

But college scouts place way too much emphasis on these measurements...but this opens up another thread

[NCBBallFan]

Objective versus Subjective
This is going to be old stuff to some of you players

Why use objective measurements versus subjective measurements? Evaluating pitchers, catchers, middle-infielders, etc.? Speed is inherrent - It can't be taught or learned. It can be improved only to a certain degree. The same is true for the arm. It is one of those rare commodities. A strong arm can "learn" accuracy, an accurate arm can't necessarily learn strength.

By the time someone reaches their senior year in H.S., radical improvements in either are the exception, not the norm. A HS guy that hits 86-87 routinely from the bump you can project upwards about 3 mph. This is the average (not the exception). This gives you a pitcher who throws 89-90 in the pro's.

How can you improve your pop-time?

1. You must do long-toss. Your pitchers are out there doing it, join them. This is the single most important thing. Start as a freshman. Coaches, don't use your catcher for convenience during practice. Learn to throw bp to a back-stop. You'll rest his knees and give him time to work on arm strength.

2. How you hold the ball during the throw.

Let me 'xplain that one:

WHAT: We teach our outfielders to instinctively reach into their gloves and rotate their throwing hand to make sure you have a 4 seam grip before you take the ball out of the glove. We do this to accomplish two things. 1). Cut down on tailing action during the throw. 2). Backspin on a 4-seamer provides "lift" so it's easier to throw low and on-line towards your target.

HOW: To learn this, you need a ball, a glove and a partner. Catch a soft-toss and remove the ball, adjusting your grip as grab it. Bring it up the the "ear throwing position" and freeze, then just soft-toss it to him so he can practice the drill. You have to do this Hundreds and Hundreds of times. It can become instinctive. THIS WILL HELP AT EVERY POSITION ON THE FIELD. Adjust it while it's in your glove, NOT while you are going up to the throw position. You can glance into your glove initially while doing this - it' not like duck hunting, 2B isn't going to move - it's still in the same place. Learn to do it without looking.

WHY: Everyone has heard about a 4 seam fastball being faster than a 2 seam fastball. The strange thing is that they both leave the pitchers hand at the same speed. The 2 seamer has more drag on it, thus it slows down faster. Where a 4 seamer will slow down 6-7 mph on the way to the plate, the 2 seamer slows down 10+ mph - that's from 60 feet. The catcher is throwing roughly twice the distance. If a 4 seam FB slows down 1 mph per 7 feet of travel, a 4 seam throw to 2B will slow down 14 mph from launch to catch. A 2 seam throw will slow down 20+ mph from launch to catch. Adding 3-4 mph from routine long-toss and always grabbing in a 4-seam manner will "CUT" that pop time down. In addition, the throws will have less "tailing action" on a 4 seamer, providing a more accurate throw. Pay attention to your thumb to make sure it's directly below your two gripping fingers instead of slightly to one side or the other, which affects speed and accuracy also. Pitchers change their spin/speed through changing their grip while maintaining the same arm action. It's something to try.

Knowing why a coach is teaching you something is half the battle to learning it. Work hard guys.

[Up and In]

Thanks NCBballFan.

One of the things that I have learned over the time that I have played this game is that all eyes are on the pitcher. Whether it is the opposing team, the fans, the scouts, or your teammates...people are always watching you. Therefore, no action of yours goes unnoticed. Players are going to make mistakes, it is how you bounce back from those mistakes that makes all of the difference. As a pitcher, it is my job when an infielder makes an error to "pick him up" and let him know that I still have confidence in him and that WE are gonna get through it. I let him know that I am going to get him another groudball and that he is going to make the play.

Pitchers: No matter how many errors are made behind you, you can NEVER point a finger. It is your job to compete on the bump and will your team through it. Also...how many times does an infielder try to make an error?..They are trying their best just like you are, so pick them up and compete your butt off.

NCFAN: I hope I answered your question, I couldve written a whole lot more, but our team has workouts and I gotta run.

[Braves]

I'm really interested in what you guys think about this.

Has MLB ruined the game for the fans and more importantly, for the kids?

Too much pressure on young kids with "Select" teams?

Too much competition from "other" sports ?

Or is Baseball alive and well and thriving?

I have an opinion, but I'll save it for later

[NCBBallFan]

How many of us have soap boxes to climb onto for this debate?

Face it guys - baseball is incredibly complex and the rules aren't for the faint of heart ... My wife has spent many a game on the side-lines trying to explain "balk rules" to a lot of fathers. On a lot of plays, I just grin as the other parents in the stands turn to ask her what happened and why after a play was over. Baseball requires your attention.

The game within a game in baseball is more like a dramatic play or murder mystery with subtle nuances and every detail important. The other sports are more in-your-face. If you aren't willing to really WATCH the game, you will end up at the game, waiting for the 3 run homer and miss the point of it.

We do a terrible job teaching baseball on TV. You see MLB and the Little League World Series - that's it. Nothing in between. I would love to see a "baseball network" formed because watching the game will teach you alot.

In the old days (yes Braves - even before my time) every town had a team, the social event of the day all summer was going to watch the town team play the next town over. There wasn't TV and it was the main social event (with Church) that everyone attended. People understood and appreciated the game. But those times will never return. MLB has to learn to market the SPORT not just their product.

"Select" teams have their place after a certain age, but before that, you want the kids just playing the game with their friends.

What's right with baseball? The sport itself is the greatest, most difficult sport in the world. Regardless of what MLB does, baseball will survive. It's a wonderful teacher for kids. (But get rid of the DH)

- - -
"Little League baseball is a very good thing because it keeps the parents off the streets." Yogi Berra
:D :D :D

[Braves]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
.What's right with baseball? The sport itself is the greatest, most difficult sport in the world. Regardless of what MLB does, baseball will survive. It's a wonderful teacher for kids.

Yes, but is it losing it's popularity? and if so, why?

[NCBBallFan]

Baseball, except for the 3-run homer doesn't fit into the 30 second sound-bite that has become the main source of information for most people. As such it is under-appreciated for what it is.

If you don't understand a game, you aren't going to watch it. Yes, MLB is loosing the battle - but baseball isn't - while the MLB is struggling and the networks are trying to figure out what to say about it, it's becoming one of the fastest growing sports in the world.

Yes, it's loosing popularity in the US - no, everywhere else, it's gaining.

editted by me - I liked my soap box Braves!!!!!! :D

[Patti]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
Baseball, except for the 3-run homer doesn't fit into the 30 second sound-bite that has become the main source of information for most people. As such it is under-appreciated for what it is.

If you don't understand a game, you aren't going to watch it. Yes, MLB is loosing the battle - but baseball isn't - while the MLB is struggling and the networks are trying to figure out what to say about it, it's becoming one of the fastest growing sports in the world.

Yes, it's loosing popularity in the US - no, everywhere else, it's gaining.

editted by me - I liked my soap box Braves!!!!!! :D

NCBBallFan, if you say 'if you don't understand the game you aren't going to watch it' , does that mean less people understand the game today than they did in the 70's?

[NCBBallFan]

I think that is true - there are too many distractions in life and learning to appreciate baseball takes time, but not for all.

My youngest taught himself how to read by taking the sports section to the tub when he was still in kindergarten. He could read every team name and every player name and knew what the batting averages meant. Needless to say, he got "hooked" early.

[Braves]

I'd agree that more young'uns now, understand it less or certainly have less appreciation of the game

[statefan]

Up and In i agree,
the minute a pitcher drops his head, he might as well get off the mound. Pitcher's almost have to be cocky on the mound, if someone makes and error, they must look at it as an opportunity to pick up their teammate and be a leader. The mark of a great pitcher is being able to win when you dont have everything behind you, wheter it be location, velocity or defense.

[NCBBallFan]

welcome aboard statefan

state/up&in

That mental toughness to shake off defensive lapses and the poise to bear down is priceless to a team.

It's interesting, we listed all these tools, physical skills and it's the mental attibutes that everyone is focusing on.....The mental atributes define leadership to me.

[Mudcat]

Well, I can tell you this. We will have several games this spring that will outdraw basketball. 3 games in particular will draw around 2500 fans. So in our area I don't think the popularity is fading. A very successful Babe Ruth program has helped create excitement to where the community follows these kids from a young age.

[statefan]

personally, i think people dont watch MLB for the reasons you've all listed, but heres another one to ponder.

There are so many people losing jobs and the economy is in the toilet right now, why do people want to watch a bunch of guys argue over whether they are gonna make 1 mil or 8 mil.

I kinda hate that teams change from year to year, but i guess players now are showin more focus on money than ever before.

[allrightnow]

I believe the Major League game is losing popularity for many reasons. The game is too long now, and played by millionaires that nobody can relate to anymore and who don't realize where they came from anymore. The players are arrogant and only last year realized just how close they were coming to destroying that golden egg laying goose. The owners and players don't trust each other for good reason and take the fans for granted. I'm not saying that everyone is like me, but I just don't care for the MLB game anymore.

Now, I like minor league ball, particularly A ball. The motivation is different, the players are accessible and likeable, the games are a reasonable length, relatively inexpensive, you can get close to the action, and there is ample opportunity to be a part of the ambience of the game. One of my favorite things to do is to try to spot the young women trolling for ballplayers at the minor league games. I saw a mother/daughter team once that was pretty good. Sorry for the digression, but I had to smile thinking about it.

So is baseball losing popularity? I don't think so from the low minors down. Major league? Definitely.

High school ball is kind of iffy for me right now and may be the aberration in my popularity opinion. High school ball is wildly popular among the participants and their families, but not much beyond that in many places. I don't recall seeing many students at the games unless it was a girl watching a boyfriend or watching a boy and hoping for a boyfriend. Although the boys from Glen High School in Kernersville during the summers have a posse of girls after them that you have to see to believe.

Baseball is probably the most popular among the really young kids where the motivation is different and it is still fun to play and dream. Later on the dreams seem to bust and reality sets in. Just a very humble opinion.

One more comment and I'll quit. I think if we want to keep baseball popular, we need to ease off just a little bit. Playing from February to November without a break year after year gets old for kids with interests outside of baseball. My son knows the game and appreciates the game, but won't play anymore. He started much of his soph year 2 years ago for the varsity and did not play Jr or Sr year. Burnout was among the reasons along with others. People tell me he was/is very good and should be playing. He is just as happy not playing and doesn't seem to miss it. My son had other interests to go along with baseball but it had become a job that he wasn't getting paid for, and I don't mean money. I'm afraid of sports becoming year round specialties at a young age because the pressures eventually have to take a toll and when that toll is paid, the game as a whole is bound to suffer.

Sorry to be so long winded.

[Braves]

No..that was a thoughtful post.

I think most would agree that MLB is suffering...and their marketing of the game is atrocious. One small segment (well, maybe not that small) of baseball that hurt was Sports card collection. This was something most kids did...and they would use their extra non-star cards on their bike wheels. Leave it to the grownups to ruin this endeavor. By making this into a lucrative business, the MLB players wanted a piece of the pie. So autographing came with a price....and if the players didn't sign, they left with a terrible marketing black eye.

The problems with MLB has filtered to all levels of baseball, even Little League. With Daddy pressing his child to excell at a very young age, enrolling him in expensive instructor camps and signing up in expensive Travel teams places most kids in a precarious position. Either they flourish in this environment or fail to live up to Daddy's expectations and loses interest in baseball because he determines he can't meet those expectations.

There are many, many other areas to discuss about this topic, but this will do for now.

But, let me end with a question. If baseball is losing popularity, why are there more people attending MLB games then ever?...and why are there more youth teams across the country ( AAU, AABC, LL, Travel teams, Showcases, Connie Mack, Babe Ruth....)

[NCBBallFan]

Everyone has to have a fav. concerning "Blue"....

Out with it !!!!

[Applejack]

Did you see the article in the Observer today about the umpire throwing Tony Gwynn out because of a uniform discrepancy.:rolleyes:

I think this guy just wanted some press.

[Prepster]

Yeah...the really embarrassing thing about that incident from the ump's perspective is that Gwynn was actually wearing the CORRECT color! The team had changed its colors this year!

[NCBBallFan]

The Really embarrassing part of this is that everyone in the dugout had on the same color jacket as Gwynn.

There is a minor difference between BLACK and RED even if you're color blind.

Here is a link in case you haven't seen it yet.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/aztecs/20030216-9999_2s16colbase.html

[Applejack]

Originally posted by Prepster
Yeah...the really embarrassing thing about that incident from the ump's perspective is that Gwynn was actually wearing the CORRECT color! The team had changed its colors this year!

Das right!!
This guy was really gunning for Tony!

[NCBBallFan]

Applejack - - - How much do you think was really related to the ump being intimidated by Tony's presence and baseball authority?

[Applejack]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
Applejack - - - How much do you think was really related to the ump being intimidated by Tony's presence and baseball authority?

Well, I don't know if there were any series of events that came before the incident but, what I could conclude from the article is that this guy wanted to set a precedent by throwing out a major league star baseball player to show that he will not use his status to intimidate him.
he had it out for Tony, plain and simple.

[NCBBallFan]

When the kids were younger, we had an umpire who had a soft place for catchers (duh!) ... He'd give tips to both teams catchers between innings - that sort of thing.

We had a game come up and the guy told both catchers when they went to the plate with their gear on in the 1st..."If you can frame it, it's a strike". Our guy knew what he meant, but the other team's catcher didn't. Our catcher decided to "test" the ump's definition of "framing" - with a RH batter up, he set up down the middle of the LH batters box. - Strike 1. The ump never said a word to either catcher the remainder of the game. Whenever we wanted a K, the catcher just moved further & further out. On some pitches, you could have put another catcher beside him directly behind the plate and their knees wouldn't have touched.

Final score 8-0. I don't believe that the ump felt going into the game that the kids understood what he was saying, but he was "true to his word".:cool: :cool:

[Papabear]

Several years ago when my son played Babe Ruth ball, his 13-14 year old All-Star team was playing in a tournament at Goodman Park in Matthews, and their first round game was against Matthews. The Matthews athletic association had set up a tent outside of the fence down the left field line, where they were selling tickets and tournament souvenirs such as T-shirts, etc. to raise money for the MARA athletic association. A man in the tent, whom I had never seen before, was taking up money for tickets and souvenirs. Well, an hour or so later, my son's game starts and guess who's calling the balls and strikes behind the plate? Bingo. It's the guy who was in the tent selling tickets and souvenirs for MARA, now umpiring a game involving a Matthews team!! Is that incredible or what? Well, I asked somebody who the umpire was, and they told me his name was Jack Cheves. Now most people with one ounce of common sense would call that situation a conflict of interest. I don't have to tell you who won the game, do I?

Why in God's name would an umpire (supposedly impartial) align himself with an athletic association by selling tickets and T-shirts??? As my son went on to play Babe Ruth, high school and Legion ball, I found old Jack to be one of the worst, if not the worst, umpire in the area. And definitely partial toward Matthews teams. True story.

[Wufman]

I can remember a similar story to NCBBALLFAN's story. Many many moons ago, I was coaching a Little League team and the homeplate umpire was actually trying to give tips to both catchers over the course of the game. And he was very nice about it and actually he's a nice guy too. But things got interesting about midway through the game because the opposing coach switched catchers (don't remember why). Anyway the backup catcher couldn't catch a lick and this umpire quit being so friendly as he preceded to start taking a beating from all the pitches this young kid was missing. Finally, the umpire yells TIMEOUT and walked over to the opposing dugout and ORDERED the coach to switch catchers immediately. The opposing coach obeyed the umpire and switched catchers, problem is, the next kid was even worse and couldn't catch either.

I hated it for the kids, but it was quite humorous if you truly enjoy seeing umpires get their due...

[Braves]

Originally posted by Papabear
Several years ago when my son played Babe Ruth ball, his 13-14 year old All-Star team was playing in a tournament at Goodman Park in Matthews, and their first round game was against Matthews. The Matthews athletic association had set up a tent outside of the fence down the left field line, where they were selling tickets and tournament souvenirs such as T-shirts, etc. to raise money for the MARA athletic association. A man in the tent, whom I had never seen before, was taking up money for tickets and souvenirs. Well, an hour or so later, my son's game starts and guess who's calling the balls and strikes behind the plate? Bingo. It's the guy who was in the tent selling tickets and souvenirs for MARA, now umpiring a game involving a Matthews team!! Is that incredible or what? Well, I asked somebody who the umpire was, and they told me his name was Jack Cheves. Now most people with one ounce of common sense would call that situation a conflict of interest. I don't have to tell you who won the game, do I?

Why in God's name would an umpire (supposedly impartial) align himself with an athletic association by selling tickets and T-shirts??? As my son went on to play Babe Ruth, high school and Legion ball, I found old Jack to be one of the worst, if not the worst, umpire in the area. And definitely partial toward Matthews teams. True story.

I recall this story from the other Board and I remember Wahoo (an umpire ) getting upset about this post :)

I have mixed emotions about Jack Chavious as an umpire. He works tremendously hard and he really wants to do well. But he will hustle to get himself in position and still BLOW the call...and it's not every now and then.

But I like Jack as a person ( a heckuva nice guy ) and I believe his being a good guy is why he helped out Mathews. It's not like he had a son playing over there, but I certainly understand where Papbear is coming from. Appearance of a conflict of interest is just as bad as an actual.

[NCBBallFan]

Questions (for discussion sake):
What purpose does the D.H. serve in High School baseball?

If a player isn't capable of playing in the field, does he have a role beyond High School?

Should this rule be abolished at the High School level?

Chime in guys......

[rcbbfan]

I'm not a big fan of the DH at the HS level, but if their going to do it, do it for the pitcher only, not position players. I think that's what it was originally intended for anyway.

[Village Idiot]

I'm not a fan of the DH at any level. I know that there are those that are for it though and they're reasons are arguable. The one thing that I have always liked about baseball is that players get to display both offensive and defensive skills. For instance; pitchers that cant hit or bunt will come back to haunt you in one way or another. It also waters down the managing aspect of the game, a DH makes it easier on the coach. Just my opinion.

[NCBBallFan]

What about the argument of involving more kids in the game?

[rcbbfan]

I think getting more kids in the game is a poor excuse for using a DH. If you're going to use it do so with the intent of helping the team win the game not just so "Johnny" can play too.

I guess there are times when a DH may be warranted. Like if a HS coach must bring a freshman up from JV to fill a hole caused by injury and the kid just hasn't matured enough to hit V pitching. But, I think that it's important that he explain this to the kid and his parents up front in order to avoid any future problems. (parents most probably)

[Papabear]

I'm not trying to put Jack or any other umpire down by saying that they are dishonest. My point is simple. Umpires must not, and should not, put themselves in the position of possibly being accused of being impartial. There was also on umpire on the old message board who said he used to umpire his son's Legion games. In a situation such as that, I believe that an umpire has an obligation to request that he be assigned to another game. Any comments from you umpires out there?

[Village Idiot]

Originally posted by NCBBallFan
What about the argument of involving more kids in the game?
I guess I dont really have an answer for that. I'm just old school, I remember when I first saw it, it was kind of like cheating in a way.

[BigRed]

Man, am I enjoying all these posts. Where were you guys at when I was pretty decent at the plate in Junior High? Led the team in hits all three years and was not to bad a catcher, but concentrated on basketball in high-school because my junior high coach wasn't a baseball man and no girls showed up at games. By the way, that's one of my few regrets in high-school, not playing baseball. Wished with all my heart I'd played now, but really look forward to alot of high-school games this year along with seeing the Crawdads play a bunch.

[Braves]

Big Red, glad to see you post in here.

Times have changed a little now. There are always a group of young wimmin that come to the games now. Especially on a warm friday night.

I'm also glad that you did not lose your love for the game.

...and the part about " we should have seen you", don't be surprised if DodgerBlue did see you. Umpires were terrible back then also!!

[Braves]

I don't like it for the reasons already stated. I don't like even more at the HS level for this reason. HS kids are always developing. Each at bat, each game, each year. The signal it sends to the position player that he can't hit and the less he gets the opportunity to bat only sends a negative reaction to his confidence and self esteem.

Maybe the reason the position player is not hitting is because he doesn't get enough chances to improve.

[LakeNormanFan]

Braves,

The reason is this; there's nothing wrong with the game of baseball-----but there's plenty wrong with the MLB which unfortunately is all that a lot of folks are exposed to. Bob Costas documented many thought-provoking reasons why the MLB is going "down-the-tubes" and what could and must be done to fix it in his book Fair Ball: A Fan's Case for Baseball (i.e. revenue sharing, salary caps, rule changes, radical realignment, frequent roster changes, fan-friendliness, long games and late starts in World Series games, just to name a few).

Let's face it, Major League Baseball is baseball's best marketing tool for the game itself but for some reason the powers that be in MLB just don't get it (they should look at the NFL and take notes). That's what has sent many fans, frustrated with MLB and thier high-ticket prices and inflated egos flocking to minor league ballparks in recent years (for anyone that hasn't been, the Durham Bulls have a fantastic AAA ballpark). True, as mentioned before, interest in all professional sports have recently been slowed because of the terrible condition of our economy, but baseball has been steadily going downhill since 1994, the year of the strike.

Times have changed and baseball is no longer the only game in town, but in spite of this change it's encouraging to see the number of youth teams growing and that's a good sign that the game will still be around for years to come.


PS - I wish someone would tell me this: Why is baseball so popular in some counties and not in others??!! Sounds like a subject for a new thread........

[Braves]

Good post and a good idea about the thread

[NCBBallFan]

Dernit ....

Thought we could get a discussion going - I don't like it either - in any shape, way or form.

Guess we are all "old school" - go National League!!!!!!

[fatman]

I think that it sucks! When my son played Babe Ruth ball, he always hit in the 3,4, 5 position. When he began as a starting pitcher in JV, he didn't even take batting practice any longer. He's now a sophomore pitcher in college, and I don't remember seeing him at the plate since BR.

Gesselein at Indy was mostly a DH until his senior year in HS, and got a pretty good deal to go to LR.

[fatman]

Other than the obvious, several MLB teams have high dollar rosters while others are basically farm teams for them, constantly changing rosters, and the cancellation of the series several years ago, I wonder if the lack of popularity of the game is due to the present state of youth ball.

When I was a wee lad, though we played in organized leagues, they were only for a short time each year. Now, baseball goes year round with spring ball, all stars, fall ball, travelling leagues, AAU, select teams, etc.

I observed more than once a coach in the under 13 leagues stretch the rules so that the bench players only made token appearances; it was important to win at all costs.

Children who are mediocre or poor players don't get a chance to play much, and this contributes to their becoming non-fans. The more talented ball players move to the big field at 13 are fans who will more than likely stay fans.

Rec ball and select ball have kids so organized that players (and their parents) expect umpires, uniforms, nice fields, etc.

When was the last time you saw kids playing a pick-up game with less than 9 per side, playing in a pasture, field, or street, with a toss of the bat to choose sides, imaginary runners, and rules made up as the game progressed, and children imagining that they're Derek Jeeter, Sean Casey, Ken Griffey, Tom Glavine, etc.?

What happened to the love of the game? Have demanding parents and coaches reliving their youth ruined it?

Most fans of basketball, football, etc., are not gifted players, but do play pick up games and learn about the game. They enjoy watching games on TV because they understand the rudiments of the game. I'm not so sure that this is the case with baseball.

Sorry about the ramblings, but as much as I love the game, I see so much causing the decline of the Grand Old Game.

[Braves]

No ..don't worry about that. All opinions are valued and all rants are acceptable. That was the purpose of my thread.

Quite honestly, I miss Rec ball and all the different levels of players. For me, I derived more satisfaction to watch a kid grow from where he started to where he finished in a season, than any kid picked for an " All Star" team. I hope as I have.. hhem, matured, the purpose of youth teams have become more clearer to me...and that is to have fun playing baseball.

[LakeNormanFan]

well said Braves

even though my son has made the school team and plays AAU he still plans on trying to fit in some Rec League games because it is so laid back and fun. (especially for his MOM)

the AAU intensity has my wife so tainted that she refuses to go to them now

[Braves]

Originally posted by LakeNormanFan
the AAU intensity has my wife so tainted that she refuses to go to them now

My wife goes to games but she won"t watch...she gets too excited. Rec ball was perfect for her

[playme]

ok i will finish this thread...everytime i have run this play it has worked to perfection..once even a double play...

as soon as pitcher comes set, ss moves up even with 2b runner and slaps his glove, (not behind the runner, in front), and breaks for 3b; 3bman breaks for home, 1bman breaks for home, everything happens in front of the runners; 2bman,(key player), breaks for 2b....pitcher wheels for 2b pick-off....runner is usually like a deer caught in the head lights...he is dead...momentum shift...dp still in order....

this play has to be worked on everyday by every pitcher and every infielder...if the coach makes a trip to the mound, the play is blown...if a pitching change occurs, the play is blown...this play will take an agressive base running team out of its game in any inning...

[Braves]

I have now filed this play :D

[NCBBallFan]

When I started this thread, I really didn't care about method of hitting, what I was trying to get you guys to think about is "how do you teach?"

You have top down, bottom up, etc....

My favorite way, if you have a player that is just terrible AND he is at the point where he is willing to work, is to teach it backwards.

If you start and the end and work backwards, each phase you are teaching will be reinforced by completing the sections you have already done, instead of working into the unknown.

Golf instructors have used this and it only makes sense to me.

Ideas anyone?

[neckball]

NCBaseballfan, I've seen it done before, as to working backwards, at a Doyle baseball clinic. Instructor was Chet Greeson.

I agree with BearBryant about having to see it before you can hit it. Next time you're at the batting cage, walk down the side of the net 10 feet or so and watch the hitter's eyes. The guys that are struggling a bit usually are not trackng the ball all the way to the contact box.

I picked up from someone else a pretty simple way to get players "back on track". Throw them a dozen or so 4 seam fastballs and tell them to recognize the spin because shortly you're going to start mixing in 2 seam fastballs. The hitters think they need to know what pitch is coming to help them hit but the whole idea is just to get them to watch the ball. If they can recognize 4 seam from 2 seam in the cage and practice that, most will improve.

[NCBBallFan]

neckball - great name....

Real good observation, you have to use what's above the neck in order to hit the ball!!!!!

[Applejack]

Recognizing a 2 seamer from a 4 seamer? I did not know that was possible.
I understand a curve ball rotation and a slider rotation (see the dot) but I do not quite see how you can pick up 4 seam and 2 seam fastballs.

[NCBBallFan]

I gotta agree with Applejack on that one. The spins are too similar. When you think about the rpm generated and the time the ball is in flight, I don't think you have enough time to do that. Sliders, yes.... the dot draws your eye towards it.

I have an old textbook around here on vision with a section that relates to sports - I'll try to look up some summary notes for you guys. The one thing I do remember from reading the section was that there are a lot of drills you can do to improve your visual baseball ability (not your eye sight). Things like tracking, visual concentration, visual reaction time .... stuff like that.

We don't train the eyes except by performing the routine drills. There are methods that you can do in you own home, without a bat, that will help your hitting...that's about all I can remember for now.

Over on the HSBaseballWeb, Mr. Physix posted a response dealing the the "critical flicker factor" which dealt with how fast moving objects appear to each of us. It seems like some people can actually "see faster", just like some people can throw harder.

[NCBBallFan]

I found my book and shuddered at the thought of making sense of the information in a single post (it's my old Physiological Psychology text book).

So I took the easy way out and went to look for a web site that had (roughly) the same information. I found this one and it's a lot more understandable than the gibberish I would have ended up writing.

http://www.aoanet.org/conditions/sports_vision.asp

If we send our hitting coaches to this site, I'm afraid none of the kids will get to work in the cages this season...:D :D :D

It sure supports the old "See the ball, hit the ball" concept don't it!!!!

[neckball]

The idea behind the drill is not to be able to identify whether a two seam or four seam fastball is coming in a game but to be able to recognize that one spin is different from another. To be able to tell the difference you have to watch the ball. After two rounds in the batting cage, I've had 13 yr. olds who could recognize 2 seam and 4 seam. Again, the idea is to get them to watch the ball all the way in and not necessarily be able to differentiate between slider, cutter, curve, etc. It''s a practice drill that you use to train yourself to track the ball all the way in that you hope carries over to the game. In practice, you don't throw 4 or 5 different pitches hoping your players can name them all. Just see the ball, hit the ball.

[NCBBallFan]

I wonder what subtle clues people sometimes pick up when at bat - whether it's the ball movement or laces or spin.

I know when my son throws a 2-seamer versus a 4-seamer....
With my bifocals on, the two seamer whacks me in the left leg... the 4 seamer whacks me in the right!! :D :D

[Applejack]

neckball "but to be able to recognize that one spin is different from another. To be able to tell the difference you have to watch the ball."

I've been hitting baseballs for 33 years and if you were to put me in batting practice right now, the only way that I could tell the difference in a two seamer and a four seamer is the action the ball makes but not from the spin.

A good drill is to tell your hitters to watch the complete flight of the ball if he does not swing. From the time the pitcher throws the pitch until the catcher catch the ball.
If they are to swing, keep your head down and see the ball hit the bat.

[neckball]

I'm sure we all have couple of favorie stories about Ole Blue, can't play the game without them.

About 10 years ago we were playing a fall game at East Meck, my son was catching that day. First inning, a ball gets by him and he jumps up to go to the backstop to retreive the ball. The umpire grabs him by the chest protector harness on his back and tells him " You and me work too hard back here to be chasing baseballs, the dugouts can chase them today". My son made a new friend that day.


This summer we were in Florida at the National tournament playing a team from Peurto Rico. My team is in the field, PR is hitting. Ball gets by our catcher, umpire turns to the two PR hitters on deck and asks for help. They're talking to each other, not paying attention. In the interest of keeping things moving along, my coaching partner trots to the backstop and picks up the ball. The umpire thanks my partner and then takes a ball out of his bag and tosses it to the backstop. He calls to the PR dugout until he gets their attention and waits on them to retreive the ball. He made his point and didn't have to wait on anybody the rest of the game.

[Prepster]

A few years ago, a Charlotte rec league team was in a small, nearby town playing the host team in their district's championship tournament...a first-round game. The host team was clearly outmanned that day, but they had some additional help on the field.

How did we know for sure...except for the fact that really obvious calls were going against the Charlotte team? One of the Charlotte 12-year-olds, having been called out on a close call at second, returned to the dugout and said, "Coach, after the call, the shortstop turned to the base umpire and said, 'Good call, Uncle Joe!'"

The host team went on to win that day in the double-elimination tournament. After the Charlotte team's protest, those two umpires didn't call another game in that tournament. Come to find out, the base umpire was, in fact, the shortstop's uncle...and the plate umpire was a coach from the host team's rec league!

The two teams faced off again in the final game, and the Charlotte team won handily.

[Braves]

I understand release points and such...but why one day the baseball looks like a softball and the next day it looks like an aspririn?..and what do you do to adjust?

[Intimidator Coach]

I dont have that answer for ya Braves but i did want to say, way back many years ago i was helping umpire some local dixie youth baseball games and i kept hearing this tink , tink , tink , behind the dugout . So i walked over and one of the parents was back there soft tossing sunflower seeds to his kid. I thought that was really an excellent way to train hand eye coordination . All of this mans children have moved on into high school and college and all are very good contact hitters.

Simple things add up and make good fundamental baseball players.

[Original]

The greatest hitter in the world

A little boy was overheard talking to himself as he strutted through the backyard, wearing his baseball cap and toting a ball and bat. "I'm the greatest hitter in the world," he announced.

Then, he tossed the ball into the air, swung at it, and missed.

"Strike One!" he yelled. Undaunted, he picked up the ball and said again, "I'm the greatest hitter in the world!" He tossed the ball into the air.

When it came down he swung again and missed. "Strike Two!" he cried. The boy then paused a moment to examine his bat and bail carefully. He spit on his hands and rubbed them together.

He straightened his cap and said once more, "I'm the greatest hitter in the world!" Again he tossed the ball up in the air and swung at it. He missed. "Strike Three!"

"Wow!" he exclaimed. "I'm the greatest pitcher in the world!"
:p

[Braves]

I love that story!!

[Mudcat]

Intimidator Coach - we have a parent on our team that uses dried pinto beans with his son, hit over .450 as a junior last yr. Sounds like it works.

[Braves]

What are you going to throw...chase, waste or haste?

I know there are many intangibles, but I'm just curious about what are your thoughts?

[NCBBallFan]

Usually Get the out. Throw a pitchers strike, and if he gets a hit, so what. A season is a long thing. You want to accomplish two things.

1. Save pitches...a guy who is throwing 12 pitches per inning will be in better shape come late summer than the guy who is throwing 16-18 pitches per inning. Why waste pitches.

2. Why show the guy everything in one at bat. Throw him something to bang on the ground so you have something different for the 2nd or 3rd time through the order that game. The less pitches that he sees from you, the more the advantages shifts to the pitcher on subsequent at bats.

[Braves]

How many times have you seen a pitcher get to an 0-2 count with fastballs where the bat never touched the ball and the next pitch is junk....single :teeth:

[NCBBallFan]

If it's a weak hitter and he hasn't shown any signs of a decent swing, CHARGE!!! right at him. A good hitter, you still want a strike, but it needs to be a pitch with a purpose .... a ball that says: Hit Me.....Badly Strikeouts are great but it's the out thats important.

A pitchers strike:

1. An extra 1-2 " off the plate: Nibbler
2. Down at or below the knees: East-West
3. In on the hands: North-South
4. Moving through the zone (preferably at an angle) : Junkballer
5. Singing the song, Blue Bayou: Power Guy
6. At a different speed-eye height than the prev pitch: Shifter
A good 0-2 pitch is must be something you can throw for a strike.

What you throw kinda depends on the style of pitcher you are:

North-South
East-West
Power Pitcher
Gear Shifter (Changing Speeds)
Nibbler
Junk Ball

You want to work to your strength and to the batters weakness (and some don't have very many). If you haven't detected his weakness - work to your strength.

[Wufman]

I agree with Braves,,,,, "THAT" always kills me when I see a pitcher throw 2 straight fastballs "completely by" a batter, but then a "genius" pitching coach calls for an offspeed pitch and the batter gets a hit. Just because some pitching coach wants to show everything,,, oftentimes they actually help the hitters.

KISS---"Keep it simple stupid". If a pitcher is "blowing" folks away, stay with it!!! Sometimes pitchers "must pitch" when facing great hitters, but usually in high school or below, a great pitcher can simply overpower hitters...

[NCBBallFan]

Wuf -- I'd agree with you ... if your pitcher is a power pitcher or a North-South Guy that can spot the ball above the hands, making it difficult to catch up with.

But a lot of very sucessful pitchers in H.S. aren't power guys and just flirt with 80 mph (the average college pitcher is at 85 so that's no disgrace). Most everyone in the line-up can hit an 80 mph pitch, so he either has to nibble, change speeds or something.

If you look at a Maddox, he may only have 4 K's in a complete game, but on the 0-2 counts, he let the batter hit the ball - badly. And he can pitch a 9 inning game on 80 pitches.

Hmmmm?????

[Wufman]

NCBBALLFAN, I agree. In high school, a kid must know "how" to pitch. I was only talking about those unique situations where a pitcher is clearly smoking a batter. In that case,,,,,, finish him off!!!

[rcbbfan]

I can't recall any LH catchers at the next level. Heck, I've only seen 1 at the HS level. Are LH catchers at a disadvantage? Do you think that they can succeed at the college or pro level? Opinions guys, lets hear'um.

[SouthPawDad]

Never seen a left handed catcher at any level. Sorry

[Braves]

This is a good question rc and I'm sure there is a logical reason, but it escapes me.

My thought is it has more to do with tradition than anything else.
Tradition forces a LH to be a pitcher, 1st baseman or OF, so he doesn't get the opportunity to develop the skills necessary to learn the position.

Since a talented LH doesn't see a future as a catcher, why spend the time it takes to develop the skills?

[Wufman]

I agree with Braves about tradition, but I also believe that a left-handed catcher has a disadvantage throwing around the head of so many right-handed batters at earlier ages. With a right-handed batter in the box, a left-handed catcher stands up to throw down to 2B and he must adjust his throw around the head of the batter who is probably ducking or simply standing in direct line from the catchers hand to his target (2B). Also, with a left-handed catcher, his balls will occasionally "tail" towards LF when going down to 2B, and you would rather have the throw on the RF side of 2B for an easier tag.

These things can be argued and everyone's got an opinion,,,, but yes there are reasons why left-handers don't usually catch. A big strong left-handed kid would be wise to learn 1B or outfield, if he's not a pitcher.

[NCBBallFan]

I've seen it quite a bit ...

a LH Catcher has one advantage and several disadvantages... that is picking the runner off of 1st, particularly with 2 on. He can get so much more on the throw without having to twist his body and the extra velocity with a more deceptive movement catches runners off guard.

He is at a disadvantage on the throw to 2nd and at a big disadvantage on the throw to third. They have a tendency to sail out into left field because the leads off 2nd are so large, the guys get such a good jump and he has to make such a radical move.

Stealing is definately easier of a LH, particularly 3rd.

The last disadvantage a LH catcher has is the tailing action on the throw to 2B ... it's difficult for infielders to adjust to the change in ball movement. If you are bouncing catchers in & out, don't include a LH in the rotation. If you only have one AND he has a strong arm, it will work fine at a HS level, but not beyond.

They need to get that kid out of there for his own sake. No future. And it may be that no one else can block a ball so they have no choice.

[Braves]

I do agree with the logic you presented NC, but they used to have the same arguments about a LH quarterback

[NCBBallFan]

In some ways, I agree with you Braves. But a LH Quarterback presents more of a challenge to the defense than a LH catcher presents to an offense in baseball. The defense in football has to change pursuit patterns, coverage option, roll-out direction, everything. The receivers have to get used to the spin on the ball but they generally don't curve away from them.

[Braves]

Can't that tail action be corrected...not all LH's throw 3/4 :)

[NCBBallFan]

yes it can... but if it's natural, it can be an advantage. A RH catcher starts the ball just to the left of the bag and it tails right and down exactly (or pretty near) where you want the tag to occur. That tailing action really gives you a slight "margin of error" which can help. That margin doesn't exist with a LH catcher.

When it doesn't happen, the ball is still near the bag for a RH guy. When it does happen, the SS/2B is in no position to make a tag for a LH guy.

[Braves]

I love this thread. It can be argued all day

That tailing action works well at 3rd and throwing behind the runner at 2nd..and the batter will learn real quick how to get out of the way of a LH toss to third. One plunk usually will correct it

[NCBBallFan]

I like it too.....

It's not the batter getting out of the way of the lefty throwing to 3rd ... it's the body shift that has to occur. The runner is getting a larger lead than at 1st and usually gets a better jump.

The LH catcher has to turn his body 180 degrees or risk eiter a bad throw or a throw with no "mustard" on it.. (Back to the food references ... hmmmm).

[Wufman]

Yes guys, its a nice argument, but I'd put my lefthander over at 1B, or the outfield.

Remember one more thing,,,, that "EVEN" if you can convince us all that a lefthanded catcher can do ok, do you honestly believe coaches at higher levels (high school and beyond) will take him seriously?

[Braves]

Originally posted by Wufman
Yes guys, its a nice argument, but I'd put my lefthander over at 1B, or the outfield.

Remember one more thing,,,, that "EVEN" if you can convince us all that a lefthanded catcher can do ok, do you honestly believe coaches at higher levels (high school and beyond) will take him seriously?

Nope..my point exactly. If he has an arm, ...he's a pitcher:)

[NCBBallFan]

100 % agree with Braves ..... GET THAT KID OUT FROM BEHIND THE PLATE.

If he has enough of an arm to be a catcher, get him on the mound. If he doesn't, then teams will run wild on him. They are NOT doing that kid a service and helping him get to the next level. I'm afraid that colleges & pros won't touch a LH catcher unless he absolutely pounds the baseball, and even then, they both will convert him to another position.

If the guy doesn't have the talent to get to the next level, it doesn't matter as much (or if he's a stud in another sport and going to play that sport in college).

But why would anyone want to play something other than baseball?

[Braves]

and why would anyone want to be a catcher?

[NCBBallFan]

Most of the good catchers I've talked to thought the other positions didn't have enough action to suit them.

Most of the average catchers I've talked to play the position because no one else wanted to.

[rcbbfan]

Since I started this thread here's my .02 worth.

As usual all you guy's thoughts and opinions are right in line with my own. While I can admire a kid's dedication to excell when others disagree with him, I can't imagine a knowledgeable parent not seeing the possible(probable) road blocks in his playing future. Although there is no written law or rule that a catcher can't be left handed, baseball tradition alone is quite a hurdle to jump. This particular kid has already transfered from one school because the coach is reported to have said he wouldn't have a LH catcher. On the other hand, he is a blessing to the coach of his new school, who had no catcher to speak of and no prospects to boot.

As far as throwing is concerned, I watched him throw out 1 runner at 2nd(over a right handed batter) and another at 3rd(behind a right hand batter) and the ball was there waiting for them both times. Obviously the pick off move to first is an easier move for a lefty and he executed it to perfection. I watched him throw down to 2nd before each inning and there was no tail in his throws. Which brings me to this point; all catchers should strive to throw with no tail. The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. It doesn't matter if the throw has a tail or is a rainbow, a straight throw of the same velosity is faster. This can be accomplished by the right grip(4 seam) and good mechanics in the throw. The 4 seam grip will help in getting good reverse rotation and causes the ball to ride up.

Since my son is a catcher I naturally have an affection for all catchers. I truly believe that in order to be a good catcher one has to love it. It is to me the most difficult position on the field to master and requires absolute dedication to do so. The physical demands alone are enough to drive most kids from it at an early age and if not, one time behind the dish with a pitcher throwing 80-90 mph fastballs 58' usually will. I have to say that i admire and respect any kid that dons " the suit of fools ".

As I said, I watch a lot of catchers and this kid is as good as any freshman catcher I've seen regardless of which hand he throws with. BUT... if he was my kid, he'd be on the hill in front of the plate not behind it.

[NCBBallFan]

great post rc

The kid sounds like a great player. Keep us posted on his progress. Hopefully, he will the the exception that proves the rule. But baseball people are hard-headed. The riskiest thing for a scout to do is to "take a gamble". A college coach can afford to take one, but, may not want to gamble a scholarship-spot on it.

I just hope the kid hits as well as he catches ... That may end up being the deciding factor down the road.

His arm sounds great....he needs to pitch

[gonzo]

After seeing the ease of getting left haded pitchers money to go to college, if he can find the strike zone, make him a pitcher. Left handed pitchers are rare, while there are plenty of good and even some great catchers out there.

[LakeNormanFan]

14 years old, 55 - 65 degree weather, opening day, just curious as to how many pitches he should be limited to? What's your opinion?

[NCBBallFan]

Too many issues in this one to give a single answer, but a lot of factors have to be taken into consideration.

1. How long has he been throwing this year? Did he pick up a baseball just before tryouts?

2. How big is he, how strong?

3. How hard does he throw?

4. How many pitches is he throwing in bull pens at school? How often?

5. How athletic is he?

You notice that all of the questions concern the needs & abilities of the player, not the needs of the team. If you have youngster, in good shape who came into tryouts in good throwing condition, 1st outing of the year @ age 14 , 60 seems right to me. Age 16 up, 'bout 75.

We can argue about this one all day long...... There is a guideline that was published that I saw posted over on the HS Baseball Web.... I'm going to paste this here, but it's the counts for the MIDDLE OF THE SUMMER...

Suggested Pitch Counts By Age, Max. Pitches/game, Max. games/week

AGE . .... PC ...G/W
08-10 ... 052 ... 2
11-12 ... 068 ... 2
13-14 ... 076 ... 2
15-16 ... 091 ... 2
17-18 ... 106 ... 2

For early in the year, these are WAY too high in my opinion and HS starters, with a tues/fri game sched should pitch once/week max.

[rcbbfan]

Good catch, NC

It's real important that any age pitcher build his pitch count gradually for about a month before the season. That's why pitchers and catchers start so early.:xyzthumbs

[Braves]

Great replies :xyzthumbs:

[LakeNormanFan]

Yes, a JV pitcher, he was at 70 after 5 innings, a hard thrower, very athletic, I thought that was enough (or maybe slightly too much for this early in the year),

The opposing pitcher, a smallish guy, threw 96 pitches in 6 innings.

[NCBBallFan]

I hate to say this, but I don't think a LOT of schools have good JV coaches. Some are in that program because they were willing to do the job, not because they have any qualifications. Some are there from the prestige of being a "coach".

If you have an issue with a coach concerning pitch counts, discuss it before the season, if possible. NEVER do it at a game, make an appointment and have a rational discussion with him.

I don't want to make any judgements about a situation that I know so few details about.

[Original]

We saw a West Meck JV pitcher go for 5 innings but had thrown more than 100 according to our "sideline" statistician. We were the opponent and felt so badly for the kid!