Debates: Freshman Teams, Parents in sports, Iredell County

[Braves]

I saw this on another website and found the replies interesting. I love this picture

[rcbbfan]

I certainly hope not, but sometimes it seems like it. I think that every HS has at least 1 over bearing parent that needs to be barred from the games. Usually for their own kid's sake. It must be a curse of some kind, 'cause I can remember them being around when I was in HS. ('66-'70)
I try to just stay out of it these days. I coached or helped coach my son from Tee-ball through middle school and to tell you the truth I enjoy the games much more now. I get to watch him play now instead of having to watch everybody. Don't get me wrong because I loved being with the kids but coaching takes a lot of time (if it's done right) and some times it just isn't worth the head aches and hassles. (mostly parents)

[SouthPawDad]

That's why I try to sit away from the other parents at hs games, or pick one or two guys who want to talk "strategy" instead of bashing coaches, players or other parents. Heaven forbid I ever have to sit around my wife or the rest of the gaggle!

As mentioned on another post, go watch a t-ball game (from your car so you can't hear the parents) and see what really gets your heart pumping.

[playme]

I think the problem comes from recreational sports (9-10), (11-12),(13-15), when a player is not required to "try-out", but makes a team because he(she) or his (her) parents just sign up for whichever sport is in season at their county rec dept.... don't get me wrong these are important for all our children; but rules say that if a player shows up for a game; that player must play 1 inning in the field, or have 1 at bat...there is nothing wrong with these rules for rec. sports. Each player is not at the same level...some are more advanced...

i always give and have each parent sign a set of rules call: "Parents: Let The Coaches Do Their Job", I explain practice, coaches desicions in front of players, paying attention to players safety, respect for other athletes; and if they have the time to coach, do it..these rules are used by Patrick J. Concannon..

i think maybe parents fail to realize that hs coaches must evaluate players abilities in a short amount of time..and perhaps they don't understand what a "role player" is...

this is going to open a can..............

[FBGuru]

I thought this would be a good thread for my first post!!

This looks like a great forum . . . .glad I missed all the excitement of re-registering.

IMO - Parents are much more destructive in the younger age groups. Usually by the time the kids get to HS the interest of the parents has wained. As a coach, I found significant difference in parental involvement in ages 8 to 12 than in ages 14 to 16. Of course, there are always exceptions.

I believe some parents assume that since the MS/HS coach is not a volunteer, but a professional and thereby should be a better coach with only the team's best interest at heart. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. Paid coaches are sometimes influenced or make mistakes. It is part of the challenges of being a professional.

My son played QB in HS. His first year the AD/HC told me that he would have started my son, but that the OC son was going to be the starter the next three years. His second year he started every game at QB (at the largest HS in NC) except for one - the HC son started that game. There are other more recent examples, but I was disappointed to see so much non-football influences at the HS level.

When my son was seven, he had played two years - one at QB - and I was 'too busy' coaching men's football (and other stuff) to coach that age. There was a lot of parental involvement at this age group and one day late in the year, when it was freezing cold, I came to this practice late. When I arrived, all the parents were watching me - so I knew something was up. My son was playing DE and the coach was trying to get the FB to block the DE. They kept running the same play over and over, with the coach yelling and screaming. It was bitterly cold and my son was sobbing, but was not letting the FB block him. What the coach was doing was wrong, especially at that age. But I didn't interfere. Finally, one of the asst. coaches did and stopped what was going on. He never coached again that year. That incident probably helped my son become as tough a player as he was, but it was still wrong.

BTW, The HC's son played FB (no talent) and the Asst. coach son played QB (he did ok).

My son was the fastest player on the team that year, but played defensive line. He ran the ball four times in preseason and scored three - never ran again. HC told me he was a three yards and a cloud of dust coach, he didn't like breakaway runners.

But as a parent, I did not get involved that year. I have coached kids every year since.

Once, when I was coaching 11-13 year-olds, a dad claimed he saw a player hit his son after the whistle in practice. He got out of his truck, ran onto the practice field at East Meck and jumped the player and sat on top of him banging his head against the ground. That is the most extreme I have ever witnessed. We pulled him off and banned him from practices and games. I wanted to call the police and press charges, but the parents of the attacked boy didn't care. I've also had a parent hit me in the chin when I didn't substitute his son the way he wanted me to. I did call the police, but later dropped the charges. This parent later became one of my biggest supporters and the attack had more to do with personal problems at home rather than on the field.

BTW, I also distributed lists of rules and parental 'Ten Commandments" and had parents meetings, etc. But you still run into those that can be unreasonable. One lady who was very severe in her attacks on me for not playing her son at RB his first year at age 8 still calls me every year to see where I'm coaching - she now wants her son to play for me wherever I'm at - if possible.

And lastly, a little off the subject, but I was appalled to hear the name of one of my former players in the news for kidnapping and robbery last week. He played on my 12 year old team (Football & baseball) and was going to play on my 13 year-old football team. He came from a rough background, but was a good kid and would have been my starting QB. Unfortunately, he missed the POP Warner certification and the commissioner refused to allow a makeup at that age group. All the other age groups had makeups, but he didn't feel they had time to let him attend another age groups makeup to be certified. The boy came to most of the practices for about half the season, but never played organized sports again. I don't know what difference it would have made in his life to keep involved in sports, but it might have helped him make better decisions. He was one who's parents were NEVER involved . . .




Whew!! I think that's enough for a first post.
:anon:

[Braves]

Great post FBGuru !!

I think we all have witnessed or been involved in a parent/coach
"debate". They are not fun, but if handle right, like apparently you did, many times the outcome can be positive.

I tell ya, I admire all coaches. The fact that they sacrifice their time for whatever reason to coach kids is wonderful. We have all experienced Daddy ball, but the point remains that Daddy is still sacrificing his time.

Even at the older ages you still witness position and playing time politics. I don't think that will ever go away, but there is one bone to pick for coaches who coach younger kids. Quit living your dreams through your child. Avoid the mentality of winning at all costs and teach them fundamentals There is no place for " burying a kid".

Sometimes I wonder how many kids lost interest in sports after being placed with unnecessary expectations from their Dad.

[Rob]

Amen Braves.

The worse thing a parent can do to a child is push them when they are young. I have been coaching competitive swimming professionally for 20 years and have seen literally hundreds of promising young swimmers learn to hate the sport because of pressure parents put on them.

Whenever I see it I imediately back off of the kid in my coaching of them. I then have to assume the support role the parent should be taking. It is difficult to do but can salvage a career.

This looks like a good forum. I am a newbe to the board but look forward to some good conversation. I might even take in a baseball game or 2 once I learn a little here. Who are the good teams in Winston-Salem?

[Prepster]

Rob:

With quality posts like that one, it's great to have you on the board! As you can probably tell, many of us are "refugees" from the Charlotte.com high school baseball board.

While I know that the Triad has some great baseball, generally, I don't feel qualified to comment specifically. However, if you'll check out the attached thread, I think it might help:
http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5316041581&f=1106002781&m=9136067791

[Village Idiot]

I had very few problems with parents back in the day cause I was up front with them from the start. Now I did have some complainers cause you cant please everybody all the time. I taught blocking and tackling EVERY DAY, EVERY PRACTICE. We won alot and I see people out and about in my hometown that either played for me or their children did. But...I've seen the other side of the story as well. People want capable coaching at the HS level (thread topic). They have high hopes for their kids, some unrealistic, some not. They have invested time and money through AAU, USSSA and JO sports, sometimes having outstanding coaching along the way. Then they may end up disappointed at the HS level if the coaching (or decisions) arent what they're used to. Its almost a step down in some cases. You see this alot in Baseball. The competition is fierce, the pressure is high, people explode. We as a society have created this, in a way, in our zeal to excel to the next level. I love the cartoon at the top...it expresses the MOST important viewpoint of all.

[Braves]

Originally posted by TANK
I had very few problems with parents back in the day cause I was up front with them from the start. Now I did have some complainers cause you cant please everybody all the time. I taught blocking and tackling EVERY DAY, EVERY PRACTICE. We won alot and I see people out and about in my hometown that either played for me or their children did. But...I've seen the other side of the story as well. People want capable coaching at the HS level (thread topic). They have high hopes for their kids, some unrealistic, some not. They have invested time and money through AAU, USSSA and JO sports, sometimes having outstanding coaching along the way. Then they may end up disappointed at the HS level if the coaching (or decisions) arent what they're used to. Its almost a step down in some cases. You see this alot in Baseball. The competition is fierce, the pressure is high, people explode. We as a society have created this, in a way, in our zeal to excel to the next level. I love the cartoon at the top...it expresses the MOST important viewpoint of all.



Well said....great post Tank

[AAUMom]

Thanks Braves :)

I'd have to say parents are capable of ruining sports at ALL levels, not just high school. Having travelled extensively over the past four years with AAU baseball, I've seem my share of obnoxious parents, kids who don't seem to have that glint in their eyes anymore as they are inundated with a barrage of 'helpful instruction' from sideline former athletes or wannabes (aka moms and dads). It's a shame really. As parents, we all want the best for our children. We want them to succeed in whichever field they choose. We want to be supportive, to push them just a bit when necessary. I find there is sometimes a fine line though. You see parents trying to recapture their Glory Days by focusing solely on the childs 'athletic career' to the point that it does more harm than good. Give me a break, these are kids. If they are going to go far in their chosen athletic field, they'll not only need skills, attitude, dedication, support, but they will also need to LOVE the game.

[observer]

From what I have witnessed in sports of all ages from 5 yrs through college, parents haven't necessarily ruined sports, but they sure can make for a long season! The most disturbing trend lately are parents who have lost the desire for their kids to be young men and women of integrity - all they care about is how often their kids plays! There are some who have no appreciation for the time and effort that coaches put in, and oftentimes these dedicated coaches are missing their own kids' games to coach kids of ungrateful, critical parents! It always pleases me, though, to see a kid rise above their parents' pettiness and really give 100% to the team.

[THEBIG"O"]

I have to say, I agree with observer on this one. It is just sad to see the kids who begin to follow in their parents footsteps. I think a perfect example of this is the LeBron James story. Given to someone who would punish him and set rules for him and this story could have been completely different. And maybe he wouldnt have been as good of a player but he would be a man, but instead you have this 18 year old kid who has been kicked off the team, but he is driving around in a Hummer, and wears all of the nicest clothes with his multiple chains and shoes. And his superstar attitude reflects on the court. Humility is something I dont see enough of in sports today (on all levels) and I think this comes from parenting, where each person thinks their son or daughter is the next number one draft pick and therefor deserves special treatment. I know the best advice I ever got was from my mom one day when I was getting a little big headed. She told me son just play the game, and let your game speak for itself. If your good enough then you wont have to say anything, and if your not then you shouldnt say anything. Just my opinion. (and maybe a few others)

[Original]

WOW Braves....what a great PURE picture! HOW TRUE! I find it so amazing that the thing the PARENTS get so wired about the kids don't even worry about.:confused: Seems to me the parents are far more jaded than the players . The players ....hopefully....are still out there because it thrills them and being part of the team is FUN. Contributing to the greater good and winning is G R E A T! Don't need the parents overanalyzing ( hey we need spell check because I can't spell!) everything . THAT makes me TIRED to be around those folks! Strategy....fun.....Subjective comments.....not fun.......

[Braves]

Originally posted by Original
WOW Braves....what a great PURE picture! HOW TRUE! I find it so amazing that the thing the PARENTS get so wired about the kids don't even worry about.:confused: Seems to me the parents are far more jaded than the players . The players ....hopefully....are still out there because it thrills them and being part of the team is FUN. Contributing to the greater good and winning is G R E A T! Don't need the parents overanalyzing ( hey we need spell check because I can't spell!) everything . THAT makes me TIRED to be around those folks! Strategy....fun.....Subjective comments.....not fun.......

Two points Original:

1. Don't worry, I'll spelchk for ya

2. Do you actually know people like that? :)

[LakeNormanFan]

Why is baseball so popular in some counties and not in others?

My son has played baseball in Iredell County since he was 5. The TBall and Coach-Pitch leagues were OK but after that we were in for a shock........there are NO, I repeat NO decent baseball fields located in the South part of Iredell County for Little League or higher. That meant jumping in the car several times a week to make a 50-mile round trip to Statesville's Sertoma Field complex to play Babe Ruth baseball. AAU? Forget it! Every AAU player I know 14U has to drive to Concord or Charlotte/Mecklenburg to play on an AAU team. High School baseball???? South Iredell didn't even have enough kids to go out for baseball to have a JV team.....Statesville hasn't had a JV baseball team in three years!!!!! The new Lake Norman High had many kids to go out for the team but it's pathetic what the parents and coaches have had to go through to get the baseball field there in to playing shape (when the school was built the athletic budget allowed for a gem of a football field, a very attractive sunken basketball gymnasium and for baseball we were given a backstop and field full of weeds------- no mound, no lights, no outfield grass, etc. etc.....)

If not for the legendary Whitey Meadows I don't think they would even play baseball in Iredell County! It's hard to believe that Iredell borders such a great baseball county like Rowan.....



:feedback:

[Braves]

You are absolutely right. That is pathetic.

When I think about the good (HS) programs in our area, I think about some very important people that shaped those programs..and I'm talking about from T-ball to the HS baseball coach. The one commonality at all the levels is COMMITTMENT!!

There seems to be ONE person to lead that program at each level...and through their sacrifice were able to affect the parents to also sacrifice their time and money to help....and as that one person moved on to the next level, there was another qualified person to take their place and would raise the bar a little more.

I'm going to raise some names, just because they deserve the attention. These are just a few of 100's of people who continue to sacrifice their time to help baseball in Charlotte:

1. John Shamp - has been coaching and developing young kids since he met Abner Doubleday

2. Rod Alexander- does not have children, yet continues to coach kids for over 20+ years...and all the kids he ever coached continue to carry a great relationship with him.

3. Randy Layman- every Association, if they are going to be successful, must have a Layman. Through his leadership, he makes dreams happen.

4. Hal Bagwell- HS coach South Meck. He demands high standards and accepts nothing less. This goes for players to his field.

There are many people, like the guys I have mentioned, at every successful association. They make the dreams happen

But to make those dreams happen, there must be a committment from another powerful group...the parents.

It's a cycle that must not be broken !

[NCBBallFan]

We've played an interlocking schedule with the younger kids from the mooresville area for years from up here in the northern part of meck county.

They have some players, that's for certain, but, what seems to be lacking is that core group of coaches that teach the new coaches starting out. Without that core group, the kids don't get the instruction and quit early because they don't like loosing all the time.

The rec league in the Mooresville area needs some shaking up. I think the Upper Deck program will be a great help to Mooresville baseball in the future. You have a year-around hitting facility and two excellent pitching instructors (Dewayne Rosenbaum & Larry Woodall - great guys too) up there. They are starting community travel teams. I don't think it will be too long before the Mooresville area is turned around completely.

Get your kids over there and support that facility - that's what it will take to grow baseball again in Iredell Co.

[LakeNormanFan]

I guess I should have mentioned those guys ----

DeWayne and Larry and the Upper Deck gang have been a real God-send to this area----- they even hooked my son up with a team that qualified for the AAU 13U Nationals in Sarasota last year (Reds' spring training facility - what a blast!)

Thanks for giving them props!

[NCBBallFan]

You can't get much better instruction than those two ... If you are a young pitcher starting out - you need to see them - they will get you off to a sound, solid footing.

Give Iredell county time, it will be all the way back - but it does take time.

[Village Idiot]

Speaking of Iredell County
First I would like to address the issue concerning the facilities, or the lack thereof. This all starts at the top and works its way down. Lack of interest at the county and city government levels reflect THEIR lack of committment to our youth programs. Thats where the money is and also where the decisions are being made as to where and how much money is spent on fields and gyms. We here in Mooresville got up a group several years ago and presented our case to the Rec. Dept., City Council and NBC News 6. We were told that changes and improvements would be made but not much has changed. Iredell/Statesville school system is in poor shape financially, many of the high school facilities are NOT up to standard due to this and probably other leadership issues. Mooresville Sr. High seems to be doing better in large part to AD Mike Carter at MHS and the success of the football program has provided funds for improvement and maintenance of facilities and programs. Its all about leadership.

As for local teams (AAU, USSSA, etc.)
Several years back a group of us (dads) were'nt pleased with our progress in youth baseball as it stood then. WE TOOK IT UPON OURSELVES to create and develop select tems apart from the rec level. It was a slow start and we got spanked...a bunch, as our friends from the NM area can tell you. But we stood together and stayed together and slowly made improvements. As of last season (our final one) we won many games in AAU and USSSA tournament play, at one time being ranked number 2 in the USSSA national rankings and finished 5th in the state tournament. As the population grows here in Iredell county this should add to the talent and coaching pool others who are dedicated to these programs. Maybe you, Lake Norman Fan, could get the ball rolling? There are local AAU and USSSA teams already established in this area as well. But I'll agree with you, MUCH more needs to be done in comparison to neighboring counties.

As for local high school teams:
S. Iredell is suffering from a loss of players DUE to Lake Norman High School. They are currently a 2A (down from 4A) school now and lost many of their better players to Lake Norman. Lake Norman, being a first year school is suffering from normal growing pains and the effects thereof, not suprising. However, lack of competent coaching has been an issue at many Iredell Co. schools (not all) and that includes Mooreville too. I'm feeling your pain. I have no clue as to Statesvilles situation, could be money or lack of interest. Feel fortunate for your situation at LNHS, their facilities are the ENVY of ALL other county schools, except maybe for the baseball field, but it will come.

Whitey has been THE baseball icon of our town since I was a kid. I know him well. His Legion teams are a source of pride for us. We need more like him, he's a good man. We simply dont have the number of kids as most of our neighboring counties do but were growing fast and that should change soon.

[ajax]

Any of you guys representing West Iredell? I heard you guys playes Alexander Central last Thursday..What are some of the thoughts on ACHS and West? Also I heard North Iredell playes ACHS tomorrow, whats the word on North?

[QueenCityHillbilly]

I was very close to Iredell Co. baseball for 2.5 years.
I think there is some real good talent, the Johnson bro's, etc....
I also think there are some fine coaches that actually care a whole bunch, there just isn't enough interest for some reason. Well, there wasn't 2 years ago anyway, there may be now. The kids that did play were hard core and real gun ho about playing. South Iredell kind of got hosed by some parents who were real rude to the coach there. Mooresville is just an extention of Whitey's Legion team. Coach Gatton always did a decent job at West I though, and Brian Hightower really brought a lot of enthusiasm adjacent to the Holler, he just didn't have enough talent. I certainly hope it's getting better.

[LakeNormanFan]

Thanks for all the feedback!!!! -
(is this is a great board or what?)

TANK: - You're right on the money, there's a big difference between Mooresville baseball and Iredell County baseball. Mooresville has a great program and I hope Lake Norman HS follows in thier footsteps

With a lot of hard work, the baseball facility will be as nice as the football and basketball (thanks to parents and others work has begun on installing lights).

Coach Robert Little is very dedicated to reviving baseball in the area I think his first year team will surprise a few this year.
Thanks again............

[NCBBallFan]

Lake Norman Fan:

Get the younger kids excited about baseball in your area again ... especially being a new school. Allow youth team that show up at the game to get in free (their parents will have to pay and you will DEFINATELY make up the lost gate at the consession stand - youngsters RUN through money at ball games). It will be good if they sat as a team and their coaches would have the opportunity to explain different facets of the game - teaching them at the same time.

Talk to your players about making a point of going out of their way to introduce themselves to the youngster attending the game. You will get the excitement back in Iredell County in no time.

[DodgerBlues]

With the number of quality freshmen getting cut every year, some say it's time for the HS coaches to get together and have a league of freshmen teams. I know Mike Shildt was advocating this a couple years back and found little interest among the coaches, but the fact is that freshmen teams are the way of the world in most big cities. A lot of good baseball players are getting cut, and others who make the team don't play their freshman year, and that's a shame. Many of them go on to play in later years or transfer to play. In addition, a lot of second-tier upper classmen get cut to make room for the fresh troops each year.

Most schools carry 16 to 18 on the varsity and another 16 or so on the JV team, about 33 or 34 total. That's an average of only 8 or 9 per class. By letting 13 or so freshmen play on a freshmen team, the coaches get to see who the freshmen are that they want to keep in their programs, and they can cut back a little on their roster sizes. Wouldn't it be nice to have 15 players on varsity and jv and 13 on the freshman team -- 43 total. You keep an average of 10 per class for the upper 3 years and get a look all season at 13 young guys. The freshmen could play an abbreviated, Saturday-only 8 or 9 game schedule and we'd really get a look at the up and coming talent.

Field space, coaches, umpires, and practice time are all big issues, but somehow other big cities make it work. All the big programs -- Providence, Butler, East Meck, Sout Meck, North Meck, Myers Park, Independence, Hopewell, etc., have plenty of quality players to fill the teams.

More kids playing, more future fans, etc. What do you think?

[NCBBallFan]

The year before last, 4 freshmen made the team at North Meck... Those players are now Juniors and are split between North & Hopewell.... It can hurt a class & a player to loose that one year of school ball. I agree with Dodgerblue - BUT ... in this day and age where schools are looking for ways to shrink athletic budgets, it isn't going to happen.

[SouthPawDad]

Because of budget and other concerns, I think a Freshman team would have to have a volunteer coach (school or Dad) and the parents would have to raise the $ for equipment, umpires, etc. It's great that the larger schools have an abundance of talented freshmen, but most smaller schools don't.

[Mudcat]

The big schools up north have had these teams for years. I attended high school in the western suburbs of Chicago in the early 70's and we had 4 baseball teams. Varsity, JV, Sophmore, and Freshman. It was a pretty big school but all the schools in our conference had the same setup.

[NCBBallFan]

This is pretty much standard in other parts of the country.

Another thing that seems pretty much standard in the big sports states (California, Texas, Florida & others) is last period PE - and you can have a specialty PE course in YOUR sport. So the baseball players could actually work on their games AT SCHOOL - LEGALLY - WITH THEIR COACH the entire year. If you also had a field house.........talk about being ready for the season!!! Same for the football team, the soccer team, the softball team, the tennis team, the basketball team..... If you are a multi-sport athlete, you choose which team you will work out with for the year (that's what they do in other states).

A block schedule makes that a little more difficult but you don't want to lift 5 days a week anyway and a block schedule would allow upper body/lower body time + infield/pitching in the field house with long toss outside on nice days. That would average out to 4 hours of baseball (or whatever) per week, with instruction, during the off-season.

You don't get credit for it after 2 years and you have to be on a team the prior year in order to get last period PE (reserved for returning players - all sports).

Now .... if you could couple 1) Freshman teams 2) last period Specialty PE & 3) Cheerleaders/"Between Inning Field Maintenance Workers"...... that's got the earmarks of a NICE program!!!!

(Added) Another thought - maybe get the cheerleading squad to work the consessions at the games - in uniform (that brings in the male students, which brings in the females students) they could circulate, take orders and deliver the grub. The parents could watch the game, the gate goes up and the concession money goes WAY up and the CL squad gets a percentage of the concessions for competitions, uniforms, etc.

Too bad none of the A.D.'s read the board....This has promise. Think of batting averages if you had that much off-season winter hitting..... Pitchers would be ready... lessen arm problems due to having them in proper condition....The last period P/E would be optional - not mandatory. You can get credit for 4 years of chorus or band, but not 4 years of P/E....

[Mudcat]

We have last period PE. It's called men's athletics and women's athletics. And that is on a 4x schedule. So they get 1 1/2 hrs a day. The way you work it is you take it for 1 semester each year.