View Full Version : Serious question for Fred, Cltbuilder and other Homosexuals
I am interested to find out:
I do not know if you consider yourselves Christian or not. However, I would like to know how you reconcile what the Bible says regarding homosexuality with your sexual preference.
Do you believe the Bible was inspired by God? Do you believe that Paul was inspired when he wrote against homosexuality? If so, do you just sweep it aside?
Do you sweep aside the entire Bible as outdated and wrong?
I'm interested to find out. These are questions I've always had but never had the guts to ask a homosexual. Now, I'm in some serious need of being straigthened out! (no pun intended, please)
Please, I am not trying to judge, but to understand.
Scripture references:
Romans 1:26-27, NIV. "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
Leviticus 18:22, TLB. "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin."
I Corinthians 6:9, TLB. "Don’t you know that those doing such things have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who live immoral lives, who are idol worshippers, adulterers or homosexuals--will have no share in his kingdom."
I Timothy 1:10-11, TLB. "Yes, these laws are made to identify as sinners all who are immoral and impure: homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, and all others who do things that contradict the glorious Good News of our blessed God, whose messenger I am."
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 - (too long to quote) but its a call to pure and moral lives.
meatpile
03-21-02, 11:47 AM
What's the bible?
turbodog, do you have a jesus fish on your minivan?
boo-urns
03-21-02, 11:51 AM
oh shit....another one of these.
too bad they didn't archive the old board...there must have been 20 pages of this topic.
Originally posted by LarryD
turbodog, do you have a jesus fish on your minivan?
Oh, lordy, don't start that thread Larry :D
Puttingood
03-21-02, 11:53 AM
:beer: :apopcorn: :drums: :coffee:
Beer or coffee (your preference)---Popcorn-----Drum Roll
Let the show begin !
Lainey, are you coming ?
Originally posted by Puttingood
:beer: :apopcorn: :drums: :coffee:
Beer or coffee (your preference)---Popcorn-----Drum Roll
Let the show begin !
Lainey, are you coming ?
...I'm here, Putt. I just had to get the Lazboy outta storage...it has been awhile since we've undertaken this particular topic. Make sure you've got plenty of supplies.
Originally posted by meatpile
What's the bible?
I think it's more a matter of ignoring the rules then screaming and crying and carrying on then throwing yourself at the mercy of the court when caught. In the same vein how does the deacon who beats his wife and abuses his children reconcile his behavior as that of a christian? Or the church lady who dumps on the members of the flock who can't seem afford the latest fashions? The fact that Jesus spent most of his time among the ophans widows whores and infirm should give you some inkling as to nature of christanity, not what was called christanity after it was coopted by the roman empire.
Kakia69
03-21-02, 12:05 PM
Before i even begin to answer your questions...and before Fred and Builder jump in like flaming meteors and scorch this thread...i have one dumb question...
exactly what year was the word "homosexuality" coined? I doubt it was added to our language during those biblical times.
boo-urns
03-21-02, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Kakia69
Before i even begin to answer your questions...and before Fred and Builder jump in like flaming meteors and scorch this thread...i have one dumb question...
exactly what year was the word "homosexuality" coined? I doubt it was added to our language during those biblical times.
it was the year 124 BC...two Israelites were bartering over the value of a camel. One said that he would pull a favor for the other for an extra bag of wheat. The reply "get out of my face you fucking homo."
do you have the exact scripture number for that boo-urns?
Originally posted by Kakia69
Before i even begin to answer your questions...and before Fred and Builder jump in like flaming meteors and scorch this thread...i have one dumb question...
exactly what year was the word "homosexuality" coined? I doubt it was added to our language during those biblical times.
I have no idea myself, but I'd honestly assume that some form of the word was used FAR in advance of the Bible. Like say....the first time someone saw caveman "Fred" humping another caveman.
Captain Morgan
03-21-02, 12:10 PM
And wasn't one of the 10 commandments something about not coveting thy neighbor nor doing him up the ass?
meatpile
03-21-02, 12:12 PM
I lived in Boulder when Bill McCartney *coach of buffaloes* made his infamous 'homosexuals are an abomination of almighty God' statement while being interviewed on campus.
That didn't go over well.
I also once decided to go to church - hadn't been in about 10 years, *come to think of it, I haven't been since*. I'm all psyched to get spiritual and what not. This place was really big and modern. Had a rock band and all. Everyone was so friendly - and it was a special sermon. They were handing out these brochures and smiling.
I grabbed a brochure, and took my seat while listening to the nerd-rock. I looked down, and then realized I was in for a social experience, as opposed to a spiritual experience. The sermon was about how homosexuality was an abomination, and they had 2 hours and special guests from all over the country! Everyone in the congregation showed up dressed in their Sunday best, I'd say 2000.
The had reformed homos, they had the love the sinner, but hate the sin jargon, innaccurate stats about how homos are child molesters, and how they're, and I QUOTE, "COMIN' AFTER MY KIDS!!!!".
At the time, I was taking a class on fascism - focusing mainly on the social aspects of it's rise to power, how the people are generally good, starting with strong socialism and nationalism. Then, WHAMMO! A common enemy is recognized, and they team up and go after them. For Nazis, it was Jews. For these guys, it was homos. There was a list of 'tenets of fascism' that I learned *forgot them*, but the people in this church, and the way the message was sold, was fascist by definition.
I used that experience for a paper. I think the brand of Christianity was called Vineyard or something. Lots of smiling white people. Very fucking scary.
cltbuilder
03-21-02, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Kakia69
exactly what year was the word "homosexuality" coined? I doubt it was added to our language during those biblical times.
Exactly, I don't know. But I researched this in regards to Shakespeare when in college and found that their words for men who favored men included "ganymede and bugger". Apparently as the scientists began to classify and study people, they added homosexual to the language to describe those people.
And for Turbo, since I do not believe in your christian god that inspires men to fear for their souls in order to be saved from death, I will disregard your question and move on to the next thread. Thank you.
LATER:
Actually, I will answer you. I don't believe that we can fully understand anything that was written by "inspired" men so many many years ago. I wish I had time to go into this, but honestly, I don't think it's important. I don't believe that a religion that was begun by men because their old religions had failed them should be allowed to tell me how to live when I feel something I can't control. Christians can say and do as they wish, within reason, and find bible verses to uphold their beliefs. I find my own rationalizations in my own mind and if I am wrong, then I guess I will see you in hell.
Puttingood
03-21-02, 12:23 PM
And I popped extra for this ! :chair:
Kakia69
03-21-02, 12:26 PM
Turbo,
For starters, one just can't go through the Bible and pick out verses that will back up one's views. You have to understand how people lived back then and how a society of people existed.
"Such an act was considered as an "abomination" for several reasons. The Hebrew prescientific understanding was that male semen contained the whole of nascent life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the woman provided only the incubating space. Hence the spilling of semen for any procreative purpose -- in coitus interruptus (Gen 38:1-11), male homosexual acts or male masturbation -- was considered tantamount to abortion or murder. (Female homosexual acts and masturbation were consequently not so seriously regarded.) One can appreciate how a tribe struggling to populate a country in which its people were outnumbered would value procreation highly, but such values are rendered questionable in a world facing total annihilation through overpopulation.
In addition, when a man acted like a woman sexually, male dignity was compromised. It was a degradation, not only in regard to himself, but for every other male. The patriarchalism of Hebrew culture shows its hand in the very formulation of the commandment, since no similar stricture was formulated to forbid homosexual acts between females. And the repugnance felt toward homosexuality was not just that it was deemed unnatural but also that it was considered un Jewish, representing yet one more incursion of pagan civilization into Jewish life. On top of that is the more universal repugnance heterosexuals tend to feel for acts and orientations foreign to them. (Left-handedness has evoked something of the same response in many cultures.)
You can do the research. The premise of the entire Bible is this:
that we love/accept each other unconditionally. For me, only the ten commandments is the only part of the Bible that seems worth living by. There are so many books that haven't even been added to the Bible...and you can find them in your local bookstore.
And any Bible thumper that tries to quote from the Old Testament is being tossed into the local dump truck.
meatpile
03-21-02, 12:28 PM
What kakia said.
And also that it was a letter to the Romans, who - if anyone has seen Caligula, were pretty fucked up.
Kakia69
03-21-02, 12:34 PM
...and a little more info for your inquiring mind...
Old Testament texts have to be weighed against the New. Consequently Paul's unambiguous condemnation of homosexual behavior in Roman 1:26-27 must be the centerpiece of any discussion.
"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their woman exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error."
No doubt Paul was unaware of the distinction between sexual orientation, over which one has apparently very little choice, and sexual behavior, over which one does. He seemed to assume that those whom he condemns are heterosexual, and are acting contrary to nature, "leaving," "giving up," or "exchanging" their regular sexual orientation for that which is foreign to them. Paul knew nothing of the modern psychological understanding of homosexuals as person whose orientation is fixed early in life, persons for whom having heterosexual relations would be contrary to nature, "leaving," "giving up" or "exchanging" their natural sexual orientation for one that was unnatural to them.
In other words, Paul really thought that those whose behavior he condemned were "straight," and that they were behaving in ways that were unnatural to them. Paul believed that everyone was "straight." He had no concept of homosexual orientation. The idea was not available in his world. there are people who are genuinely homosexual by nature (whether genetically or as a result of upbringing no one really knows, and it is irrelevant). For such a person it would be acting contrary to nature to have sexual relations with a person of the opposite sex.
Likewise the relationships Paul describes are heavy with lust; they are not relationships of consenting adults who are committed to each other as faithfully and with as much integrity as any heterosexual couple. That was something Paul simply could not envision. Some people assume today that venereal disease and AIDS are divine punishment for homosexual behavior; we know it as a risk involved in promiscuity of every stripe, homosexual and heterosexual. In fact, the vast majority of people with AIDS around the world are heterosexuals. We can scarcely label AIDS a divine punishment, since non-promiscuous lesbians are at almost no risk.
And Paul believes that homosexuality is contrary to nature, whereas we have learned that it is manifested by a wide variety of species, especially (but not solely) under the pressure of overpopulation. It would appear then to be a quite natural mechanism for preserving species. We cannot, of course, decide human ethical conduct solely on the basis of animal behavior or the human sciences, but Paul here is arguing from nature, as he himself says, and new knowledge of what is "natural" is therefore relevant to the case.
Gosh, i'm feeling neglected. So much about homosexuality being a sin. What about bi-sexuality? i think i'm going to start going to a different church every Sunday so I can promote bi-sexuality!!!
boo-urns
03-21-02, 12:38 PM
you are wrong...homosexuality was started by an isrealite camel distributor trying to get more wheat....he later learned what was going on and became the first transvestite...and his wheat supply went through the roof while the unsuspecing johns that he was a woman.
damn shows already started, hmmmph, I'll find me a corner somewhere to listen, watch, and lurk too
muff_spelunker
03-21-02, 02:34 PM
where's that dead horse so we can beat it? :sleep:
I don't have all the answers and never claimed to. Yes I believe the Bible but I feel it has been influenced by man's feelings over time during translations. Yes I consider myself a Christian and I have no doubts about my salvation. One of these days I will face God and answer for my sins. I am not afraid of Him; it's mankind and their ignorance I fear. In the end, God knows what I can and can't help. If there is one philophosy I have learned to live by, it's "To Thine Own Self Be True." I may not be able to help what I am, but I can help who I am. And who I am is a good man. I can live with that. ;)
Originally posted by muff_spelunker
where's that dead horse so we can beat it? :sleep: NEXT!
Just out of curiosity- Why are straight people fascinated with homosexuality? I mean- it's like being a Jew. I know they exist. I have contact with very few of them. I was raised to believe they would go to hell. They don't bother me, so I don't bother them. But I am not intrigued by them. What's the deal? :confused:
Shrapnel
03-21-02, 03:17 PM
You da man, Fred!!
Well, you know, kinda.
meatpile
03-21-02, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Fred
Just out of curiosity- Why are straight people fascinated with homosexuality? I mean- it's like being a Jew. I know they exist. I have contact with very few of them. I was rasied to believe they would go to hell. They don't bother me, so I don't bother them. But I am not intrigued by them. What's the deal? :confused:
FASCINATING! TELL ME MORE!
BearBryant
03-21-02, 03:31 PM
usually people that ask a bunch questions pertaining to homosexuality are trying to figure out if they are gay or straight.
To be very honest, my question had nothing to do with defending the "general" view of homosexuality by mainstream christianity. It has all to do whether homosexuals consider themselves christians - and how they reconcile their view of homosexual behavior compared what the Bible says.
I am a christian - but I myself have a hard time, in my own mind, with what do to with these verses.
Really, Fred answered my question more than anyone (I guess he would know best anyway). I wanted to know how a homosexual christian sees the Bible's remarks about homosexual behavior.
Now, I'm not going to fall for the trap of defending either the Bible's views or the humanistic views. I for one have no absolute knowledge so I'm not sure which view to accept.
Kakia - either you believe in the whole Bible or you believe in none of it. You can't pick and chose which parts you can believe it. One one hand, you say that whoever "tries to quote from the Old Testament is being tossed into the local dump truck." Then, you say that you believe in the "Ten Commandments". Where do you think those are found? In the Old Testament. The New Testament is built on the foundation of the Old Testament - when one truly comprehends them both, one finds that they don't disagree, they actually agree with each other.
Interesting quotes you pasted - good food for thought.
Originally posted by LarryD
turbodog, do you have a jesus fish on your minivan?
LOL Actually, I don't. And I'd never be caught with one either. :D
Originally posted by Fred
Just out of curiosity- Why are straight people fascinated with homosexuality? I mean- it's like being a Jew. I know they exist. I have contact with very few of them. I was raised to believe they would go to hell. They don't bother me, so I don't bother them. But I am not intrigued by them. What's the deal? :confused:
As you said you have contact with very few jews. Here there is a very vocal and graphic gay population so naturally the consciousness is aroused and elevated.
jeanmarie
03-21-02, 04:04 PM
(I can't figure out how to attach quotes)
Fred, you are correct. Only God knows what is in our hearts and it is up to only Him to judge us. The one reason us Baptists have received such a bad name over the years is the SBA being so judgemental.
People are so interested in homosexuals because they are really just nosy busybodies!
meatpile
03-21-02, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Turbo
Kakia - either you believe in the whole Bible or you believe in none of it. You can't pick and chose which parts you can believe it.
I do. I believe parts and don't believe others. So, one can.
Originally posted by meatpile
I do. I believe parts and don't believe others. So, one can.
I don't think you understand what position that puts you in, bro.
When it comes to the Bible, you only have to choices to believe in:
1. It is a book inspired by God. The things in it are the wishes and will of God for humanity.
2. It is a book written by humans. Therefore, it is not divine nor necessary for us to follow.
If one believes #1, then one cannot pick and choose in the Bible. Everything there is inspired by God. If one picks/chooses, then one is putting themselves above God by saying - "well God, you may have inspired this part, but I choose not to believe it." This obviously is dangerious - but ONLY if one believes in the Bible.
If one believes #2, then why believe any of it?? It wouldnt make any sense to believe in any part of the Bible of it is not an inspired book by God. The Bible actually claims to be inspired, and if you beleive it isnt, why believe any part of the lie?
Besides, in the Bible, Jesus actually claimed he was God. Either he was telling the truth or he was the biggest liar in history.
Anyway, I'm still doing lots of thinking regarding this whole thing. I'm trying to sort it all out. I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to believe or how to live.
Puttingood
03-22-02, 12:32 AM
John 3:16
All I got to say about it.
Yep you truly buy into 3:16 you pretty much buy into everything
Kakia69
03-22-02, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Turbo
Kakia - either you believe in the whole Bible or you believe in none of it. You can't pick and chose which parts you can believe it. One one hand, you say that whoever "tries to quote from the Old Testament is being tossed into the local dump truck." Then, you say that you believe in the "Ten Commandments". Where do you think those are found? In the Old Testament. The New Testament is built on the foundation of the Old Testament - when one truly comprehends them both, one finds that they don't disagree, they actually agree with each other.
Interesting quotes you pasted - good food for thought.
Who says I can't? The Catholic church does it. The Methodist church sure as hell does it. The Baptists do it. The Mormons do it. What about the Church of Latter Day Saints? All of these religions started at the same place. All of my personal beliefs aren't even covered by the Bible...and I refuse to be a small minded imp...which is what I believe I would become if i refused to view the world outside of biblical passages. I truly believe that the Bible does not include every book ever written. There is evidence of it. You have to have FAITH...period. not just faith in the book.
My faux pas on the Old Testament.
Originally posted by Turbo
my question had nothing to do with defending the "general" view of homosexuality by mainstream christianity. It has all to do whether homosexuals consider themselves christians - and how they reconcile their view of homosexual behavior compared what the Bible says. Do divorced people who have remarried consider themselves Christians? Love the sinner, not the sin. I was in a 5 yr relationship with a cop. I was committed to that relationship and honestly believe that sex with him was not a sin. (Since we were not legally allowed to marry- our commitment was to each other and God, not legal.) But sex with every other man I have had sex with IS a sin. Yes, screwing around is a sin. But no more so for a homo than a hetro. As far as the Bible goes Turbo, I think that it has been translated so many times, so many chapters were left out etc... that we have to use our commen sense that God gave us to do what we feel is right and good. Homosexuality is not wrong, but engaging in homosexual relations is wrong if it is not with a person you have made a commitment with in front of God.
Kakia69
03-22-02, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Turbo
1. It is a book inspired by God. The things in it are the wishes and will of God for humanity.
2. It is a book written by humans. Therefore, it is not divine nor necessary for us to follow.
Actually, it is a book inspired by God/Higher Power AND written by humans
Turbo:
The Jews only believe in one Testament
The Christians believe in two Testaments
The Mormans believe in three Testaments
Maybe the Jews and Mormans think they are just as right as you think you are. You are obviously Bpatist to believe that your religion is right and all others are wrong. Nothing personal, but if anyone hits hell wide open, it will be the Southern Baptists for being so judgemental. (And yes, I was born and raised one- was in Sunday School and worship service every Sunday and was taught the same crap you were. I would still be a member if they didn't damn everyone who didn't think as they thought to hell.) We were put on this earth to help each other along, not condem each other to hell. I personally believe that we will be judged by what we believe to be true.
Kakia69
03-22-02, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Turbo
Besides, in the Bible, Jesus actually claimed he was God. Either he was telling the truth or he was the biggest liar in history.
he could be one in the same. Jesus lurked on land (one dimension) and in another "heavenly" dimension he went by a different name. Who knows? oh well, i'm bored with this subject. sorry. You just need to keep an open mind and be aware that there is so much more that needs to be experienced and understood...and the book just doesn't explain everything.
I have to say kakia and Fred, I am enjoying the serious conversation as opposed to insulting anyone for whatever points are brought up. This is just mental stimulation and a very valuable conversation. Thank you both.
Kakia - just because churches pick apart the Bible doesnt make it right, does it? You mentioned believing things outside of the Bible, thats fine with me. If, however, those things are in contradiction to the Bible - which do you throw out? The Bible or those "outside" things? My point is...if you believe the Bible is God's revealed will, then you are sorta stuck in a very hard position. You're right though, it does take faith. Thing is, faith is based on nothing you can prove. Thats the tricky thing about faith.
Fred, I totally see your point. I really do. Only thing I would reply to is:
"far as the Bible goes Turbo, I think that it has been translated so many times, so many chapters were left out etc... that we have to use our commen sense that God gave us to do what we feel is right and good."
I think if one followed that idea to its natural conclusion, we would each have our own idea of what is right and good and what isn't. The terrorists felt that what they did was "right and good", didnt they? So, there has to be some common rule/belief that everyone can agree to. It can't just be what our own personal common sense tells us.
One more thing, since I missed both of your last two posts.
I am keeping my mind open, this is why I'm asking. Fred, in no way am I trying to say that I am "right" and anyone else is wrong! Believe me! Besides, I'm not a Southern Baptist. :)
Ok, I'll let it die. Sorry to take up both your times so much.
Kakia69
03-22-02, 01:22 AM
I was raised a Methodist...no fire and brimstone sermons. It was very comfortable and relaxing. What angers me the most about the church now is that they want gay men and women to attend. They say "we will welcome you" and "we will accept your $$$" and "we'd love to have you as a member of this congregation"...but we do not approve of how you choose to live your life. It's not announced, just known. It's just like the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Amazing!!!
Originally posted by Kakia69
I was raised a Methodist...no fire and brimstone sermons. It was very comfortable and relaxing. What angers me the most about the church now is that they want gay men and women to attend. They say "we will welcome you" and "we will accept your $$$" and "we'd love to have you as a member of this congregation"...but we do not approve of how you choose to live your life. It's not announced, just known. It's just like the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Amazing!!!
I fail to see what you find so amazing? Do you expect the church to ignore the written word of the bible for the some wishy washy interpretation of what god's will means to me is ok as long as I think I'm not hurting anybody?
Seems that logic failed miserably in the early 80's when people decided that acting like monkeys was acceptable as long as they weren't hurting anybody, the result was the spread of a plague that has killed millions more than it should have.
Seems to me you take the same tack as the holy rollers that you condemn just the extreme opposite argument.
The Brain
03-22-02, 01:46 AM
Mkay... my personal beliefs... I personally feel I'ma VERY devout Christian... BUT I don't regularly attend Sunday Service... I don't read my Bible nightly... I don't "condemn" people like Kakia and Builder for their sexual prefrence (Note I didn't include Fred its due to him being a closet hetero:D ) Anyways back to my point... The origin of the Bible in its purest form is NEVER to be seen again... when written originally I TRULY believe it was a devine work and spoke the word of God... but over time it has been changed an edited for Kings, monarchy, liars, cheaters, and people who interpret it in different way... now don't get me wrong on the most part I believe what the Bible says... but as far as Christianity goes... my PERSONAL opinion is this... we are ALL sinners... yeah it sucks get over it... not ONE of us are worth a place in heaven... BUT the key meaning to ALL of Christianity is that if we BELIEVE that God sent Jesus to earth to die on the cross, and that by his sacrifice we are all forgiven of our sins... THEN and ONLY then will we go to heaven... it doesn't matter ow many days we go consecutively to church... it doesn't matter how diligently we read our Bible... it doesn't matter what our sexual preference is... as long as we TRULY have faith and believe then we will go to heaven... no that doesn't mean go out and commit actions that you would believe God would look down on... but I no matter WHAT sins I personally commit... I KNOW I'll be in heaven.
please God - make it stop
mikepira
03-22-02, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Kakia69 The Catholic church does it. (focuses on the New Testiment)
Gotta disagree with you there...In fact, the catechism spent a great deal of time with the Old Testiment.
True, books in the Old Testiment might not be the focal point of the homily, but the Old Testiment is acknowledged.
mikepira
03-22-02, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Fred
I don't have all the answers and never claimed to. Yes I believe the Bible but I feel it has been influenced by man's feelings over time during translations. Yes I consider myself a Christian and I have no doubts about my salvation. One of these days I will face God and answer for my sins. I am not afraid of Him; it's mankind and their ignorance I fear. In the end, God knows what I can and can't help. If there is one philophosy I have learned to live by, it's "To Thine Own Self Be True." I may not be able to help what I am, but I can help who I am. And who I am is a good man. I can live with that. ;)
Gotta agree with you there.
To back up my point, wasn't it Jesus who spent time with people whose activities were frowned upon (i.e. mary magdalene, etc) :)?
mikepira
03-22-02, 02:11 AM
Notice that I am not equating prostitution with the gay lifestyle.
I am simply saying that both activities, or lifestyles, are equally frowned upon :)
Originally posted by VOR
Seems that logic failed miserably in the early 80's when people decided that acting like monkeys was acceptable as long as they weren't hurting anybody, the result was the spread of a plague that has killed millions more than it should have. Just curious VOR, but it sounds as if you are saying Aids is punishment for sin. If God were passing out sexually transmitted diseases as punishment for sin, you'd be down at the free clinic all the time!
Wossa- if you don't like it, stop clicking on the topic! DOH!
Brain- it sounds as if you and I believe a lot alike. But it is not any more of a "preference" than being white is my preference. If I had my preference, I would be a middle class yuppy husband that liked pussy, had 4 children, a mini-van, an Explorer and 2 golden labs.
Turbo- There is nothing wrong with asking serious questions and I appreciate your 'questions without insults' approach.
I have no doubt that in time, it will be proven that homosexuality is not a choice (either by genetics or something) and millions of people will have to eat their words. But in the meantime, we get to beat the horse and tolerate the ignorance of those too narrow minded to think on their own.
Kakia69
03-22-02, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by VOR
I fail to see what you find so amazing? Do you expect the church to ignore the written word of the bible for the some wishy washy interpretation of what god's will means to me is ok as long as I think I'm not hurting anybody?
Seems that logic failed miserably in the early 80's when people decided that acting like monkeys was acceptable as long as they weren't hurting anybody, the result was the spread of a plague that has killed millions more than it should have.
Seems to me you take the same tack as the holy rollers that you condemn just the extreme opposite argument.
I probably should have explained more. I use to be one of those horrible bible thumpers because of where I was raised. Totally naive to the world. Had A LOT of faith in the church. Then I moved to Atlanta...became more in touch with myself...became more aware of gays...met this really great gay guy who is now my best friend...just a different person now. You are right, Vor, it's not amazing. I guess i was still naive in regards to the methodist church and once they took that stance...well, i won't support a church that takes money from gays while quietly disapproving that lifestyle.
meatpile
03-22-02, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Turbo
I don't think you understand what position that puts you in, bro.
When it comes to the Bible, you only have to choices to believe in:
1. It is a book inspired by God. The things in it are the wishes and will of God for humanity.
2. It is a book written by humans. Therefore, it is not divine nor necessary for us to follow.
If one believes #1, then one cannot pick and choose in the Bible. Everything there is inspired by God. If one picks/chooses, then one is putting themselves above God by saying - "well God, you may have inspired this part, but I choose not to believe it." This obviously is dangerious - but ONLY if one believes in the Bible.
If one believes #2, then why believe any of it?? It wouldnt make any sense to believe in any part of the Bible of it is not an inspired book by God. The Bible actually claims to be inspired, and if you beleive it isnt, why believe any part of the lie?
Besides, in the Bible, Jesus actually claimed he was God. Either he was telling the truth or he was the biggest liar in history.
Anyway, I'm still doing lots of thinking regarding this whole thing. I'm trying to sort it all out. I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to believe or how to live.
Since I'm not Christian, it doesn't matter. I like #2, because there are some common sense things regarding humility and what not. I mean - Jesus was way cool.
boo-urns
03-22-02, 09:50 AM
God, Satan, Buddha, anyone...please make it stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
slydevl
03-22-02, 09:52 AM
Why can't history books simply relate was has occurred in the past? I mean history is pretty black and white right? Somehow the opinions of the editors pervade their way onto the pages. I view the Bible in a similar vein.
Originally posted by Fred
Just curious VOR, but it sounds as if you are saying Aids is punishment for sin. If God were passing out sexually transmitted diseases as punishment for sin, you'd be down at the free clinic all the time!
Wossa- if you don't like it, stop clicking on the topic! DOH!
Brain- it sounds as if you and I believe a lot alike. But it is not any more of a "preference" than being white is my preference. If I had my preference, I would be a middle class yuppy husband that liked pussy, had 4 children, a mini-van, an Explorer and 2 golden labs.
Turbo- There is nothing wrong with asking serious questions and I appreciate your 'questions without insults' approach.
I have no doubt that in time, it will be proven that homosexuality is not a choice (either by genetics or something) and millions of people will have to eat their words. But in the meantime, we get to beat the horse and tolerate the ignorance of those too narrow minded to think on their own.
No fred just the consequences of not following the rules laid down. Had there not been the level of promiscuity that exists in the gay world then the effect of aids would not have been so pronounced outside of the african continent.
Kakia69
03-22-02, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by VOR
No fred just the consequences of not following the rules laid down. Had there not been the level of promiscuity that exists in the gay world then the effect of aids would not have been so pronounced outside of the african continent.
What about the level of promiscuity and the "waiting until your married" rule in the heterosexual community?
slydevl
03-22-02, 12:04 PM
I think the whole wait until you are married rule only existed because back when it was made people were getting married at age 12. Sex could be physically harmful before that age not to mention pregnancy.
Originally posted by VOR
No fred just the consequences of not following the rules laid down. Had there not been the level of promiscuity that exists in the gay world then the effect of aids would not have been so pronounced outside of the african continent.
Just great. I'm sure the entire generation of hemophiliacs that have been wiped off the planet in the last 20 years would disagree. :rolleyes:
The Brain
03-22-02, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by VOR
No fred just the consequences of not following the rules laid down. Had there not been the level of promiscuity that exists in the gay world then the effect of aids would not have been so pronounced outside of the african continent.
I heard the first guy contracted it from havin sex with a Monkey... I always wondered about that Mickey Dollan(sp?)... seriously anyways God wouldn't have cursed those that were hetero with the AIDS disease if he were trying to punish the homosexuals for what you deam wrong...
Puttingood
03-22-02, 01:13 PM
It is believed that the virus came from African customs of drinking the blood of monkeys or eating them raw. the evidence definitely points that way.
The last major study done showed over 34 million cases world-wide with 71% of those being in Sub Saharan Africa. 16% were in Southeast Asia.
America has now surpassed the 1 million mark for the first time and the overwhelming majority of the cases are gay male. There has been a very sharp increase in needle junkies and a decline in gay male but the majority of those infected and those projected to test positive in the next 10 years are gay males.
There is a difference in HIV and AIDS.
To say that the infected population is gay/ straight and include the African nations in any study of gay-straight is ludicrous.
New York City is number one on the infected list--boosted by its large population and I would imagine drug addicts. Probably no more per capita than any where else but the facts speak for themselves.
Atlanta is number 10 and is projected to rise quickly in the next 10 years.
This study is 2 years old but still one of the only in-depth ones available.
I am talking about live people here and not the people that have died from AIDs already.
It is a sad fact that any diesease such as this that can easily be prevented has spread so rapidly through our society.
You only have to hold the hand of 1 friend as they die and wonder why when it is so preventable. I have held the hand of many and I still wonder why.
I think ignorance is the main diesease here and its killing good people at an alarming and unnecessary rate.
If you are gay--then wise the hell up ! If you ain't gay then don't be stupid out there and think you are not at risk.
I know there are exceptions like blood transfusions and passed from the mother(breast milk, etc. etc.) but these are very minute compared to the people that could have used prevention to start with.
meatpile
03-22-02, 01:16 PM
Really? I thought it was because God Hates Fags. I saw some folks on TV carrying those signs around.
Originally posted by Puttingood
I think ignorance is the main diesease here and its killing good people at an alarming and unnecessary rate.
You got that right Putt.
Too early for another beer Putt?
Originally posted by Kakia69
What about the level of promiscuity and the "waiting until your married" rule in the heterosexual community? Get with the program Kinky. VOR thinks that since we can't get married or have legal unions (as he stated in my thread), that we should remain virgins. ('If I can't get laid, then you can't either' train of thought.) It's people like him who lay conscious in the ER slowly bleeding to death and refusing blood due to the fear of HIV. Life without some risks really isn't living at all.
Originally posted by Fred
Get with the program Kinky. VOR thinks that since we can't get married or have legal unions (as he stated in my thread), that we should remain virgins. ('If I can't get laid, then you can't either' train of thought.) It's people like him who lay conscious in the ER slowly bleeding to death and refusing blood due to the fear of HIV. Life without some risks really isn't living at all.
See that's the attitude that got y'all dead.
Tell me gay man why in 20 years of queerity why haven't you found a mate? Then tell me it not solely about physical attraction and when the problems start to arise in the relationship then its time to hit the door. Dogs are more loyal to one another.
From the sound of it VOR, you died years ago and someone just forgot to tell you!
Nice edit VOR. First off, it's not been 20 years. Remember I tried your side of the fence first. Second of all, I just got out of a 5 year live-in relationship a few years ago that I thought was 'forever'. I am nowhere near ready to do that again and never will. Anymore stupid questions? And speaking of dogs- who put on your choke leash on too tight recently?
Originally posted by Fred
Nice edit VOR. First off, it's not been 20 years. Remember I tried your side of the fence first. Second of all, I just got out of a 5 year live-in relationship a few years ago that I thought was 'forever'. I am nowhere near ready to do that again and never will. Anymore stupid questions? And speaking of dogs- who put on your choke leash on too tight recently?
not a stupid question case in point.
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