Something to Think About

[Prepster]

A very lopsided outcome from a recent game sparks the recollection of a conversation I had on a baseball sideline yesterday:

The person beside me was offering the opinion that the Charlotte school system ought to offer schools the option of not fielding a baseball team, COUPLED WITH the opportunity for players at those schools to play at a nearby school of their choice. My friend's thesis is that there are some schools in the area that simply aren't fed enough talented players from their district. In many cases, these schools have no JV program. Their varsity is typically made up of 2 or 3 kids who can play the game at the high school level, joined by enough students who can be talked into putting on a uniform to fill out the squad.

The predictable result? They get pummelled game after game by the numerous quality teams in the region.

How can this be healthy for anyone involved? The several honest-to-goodness baseball players at the have-not program never get an opportunity to practice and play with kids whose skills and interest level are comparable, the "players in uniform only" at the have-not program have to wonder why they're out there, and their opponents take little, if anything, from the experience of playing them.

At a time when school resources are precious, one does have to wonder if we're approaching this situation in the smartest possible way. Other thoughts?

[NCBBallFan]

We can all imagine being on the loosing side of one of these games. The stigma (if that is the right word) associated with lop-sided loses can be "injurious", but I believe only temporarily. We as a society may try to protect people too much. The National networks stopped carrying the images of the twin towers shortly after 9/11 as to not injure our nations delicate psyche. I can't agree with either position.

I jumped out to the NC High School record book, to see if there were any examples of this one-sidedness. These are placed here for a couple of reasons. #1: They ARE records, even if no one other than the team that won wants to look at them and the very nature of baseball is to COUNT EVERYTHING, including the number of times the bullpen catcher scratches himself between innings. #2: It's not a unique situation to our area.
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HITS

Game, one team:
33 - Jacksonville Georgetown vs. Rose Hill Charity, 1966 (41-1, five innings)

RUNS

Game, one team:

49 - Bethany vs. Asheville McGuiness, 1967 (5 innings)
44 - Farmer vs. Broadway, 1970 (Farmer 44-0)
42 - Bear Grass vs. Cape Hatteras, 1993

Game, two teams:

52 - Bethany vs. Asheville McGuiness, 1967 (5 innings)

Runs in inning:
25 - Bear Grass vs. Cape Hatteras, 1993 (Bear Grass 42-1)
23 - South View vs. West Robeson, 1987 (South View 34-14)22 - Wilson Hunt vs. Rocky Mount,1990 (Hunt 22-10)
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A student who's basketball team got hammered by Vance this season or got murdered by Independence in football may not mind having one sided reports printed. They happen in other sports (20-0 score this season in HS Softball has been posted).

As much as you feel for the players, I don't believe that not reporting it is the right. Maybe the answer is to have conferences by "sport"? Match up the best with the best but that will only work in metropolitan areas.

I don't have an answer. I don't think we ever will. But we may have some great debating material.

[Prepster]

A couple of brief, clarifying points:

(1) I am FAR from certain, myself, that my friend's recommendation should be followed. Rather, I find it an interesting approach to consider; one that requires a lot of thought, beforehand.

(2) For me, the core issue has a lot less to do about losing, itself, than it does about relegating kids who are passionate about the game to an environment that can't be as good developmentally as one they might find close by....along with a resource question for the school system.

[Wufman]

Prepster, are you suggesting that we allow kids to transfer to another school if the kid's home school doesn't take his/her sport seriously? Doesn't Char/Meck have this already with School Choice? Maybe I'm not understanding you clearly.

I'm sorry if little Johnny is a very good baseball player and his school coach/team don't practice,,, and yes they will be bad as a result. But I'm not sure if allowing kids to transfer in this situation is the solution. Remember I'm coming from a small-town background, but I would rather see some adults get with the coach, or "get a coach" and elevate the program to promote pride among the students,,,, which in turn will make the students WANT to play and excel in that program. Here in Kannapolis, little boys start playing football when they are in elementary school and they all have one thing in mind--- to grow up and play football for the A.L.Brown Wonders. They've all heard about Brumley, Horton, Smith, Johnson, Lott, Maddox, Morton, etc. These young elementary-age boys go to football games in Kann on Friday nights and see these enormous crowds. Guess what? These "SAME" young boys then all grow up and they want to be a part of that. As they get older, they lift the weights and do their running to get there.

Same can be done for other sports at other schools. Sounds like you're talking about a tough situation in which theres a long way to go. But somebody's got to step in and get some pride and credibility into the program...

[NCBBallFan]

School sports are really self-sustaining financially except for the initial investment in building & grounds. The gate & concessions cover the cost of playing sports at most every high school.

Most schools can cover the costs for their entire school year in athletics from the gate of the football season. If that doesn't do it, basketball will put it over the top.

Financially, I don't believe that it is an issue.

[NCBBallFan]

Kids with a "passion" for the game.

With school choice, this is a diminishing concern. Most High Schools don't realize it yet, but they are competing, in every sport for the best middle school players. The kids in the 7-8th grade KNOW who has good programs, they talk to their older brothers, sisters and other ball players at the fields.

Over the next few years, I am afraid you are going to see more and more "specialty sport" schools in Charlotte-Mecklenburg as the best programs attract the best talent. Since rising 9th graders can specify the school that they wish to attend, the situation will sort itself out as far as players are concerned.

[Wufman]

NCBBALLFAN, thats what I'm afraid of,,,, what you said,,,, that in a few years in Char/Meck you will have a select few schools who will clearly dominate everyone else, because all the good players will "choose" to go to the select few good schools. I'm not sure School Choice was designed for athletics, but its certainly going to be used.

Unfortunately for the middle-road schools in Char/Meck,,, they will lose their better players who are transferring to the elite programs. If Char/Meck wants to improve "ALL" their school programs, "SOMEHOW" this must be fixed or the strong will keep getting stronger and the weak will keep getting weaker...

[NCBBallFan]

It will never get "that" severe Wuf, because the number of quality players in the area. Everyone wants playing time in their sport. If two schools happen to be close together, you may find that the sports will "separate" between those two schools. System-wide, it will be impossible.

For example: In the north end of Meck county, the school choice allows you to choose from between: West Meck, North Meck, Vance & Hopewell. Between those 4 schools, they may become somewhat "sport specific", but there are too many players to congregate at just one school.

[Wufman]

NCBBALLFAN, I see what you're saying and further understand that it may never get totally one-sided where every single decent baseball player in Meck.Co. goes to the same school. But with School Choice, my fear is that schools with average programs or maybe weaker programs will always have their better athletes transferring OUT to other schools. With myself living in a small-town, I would RATHER see coaches and/or parents work hard and bring UP the weaker programs (i.e.better facilities, uniforms, better coaching, whatever is needed). I just don't like the idea of allowing students to transfer from one school to another, unless its a true legitimate transportation problem. Maybe that shows you how "little" I know about Char/Meck schools...

[NCBBallFan]

:D :D :D Why develop a football program so everyone can play for Independence??????

:D :D I see your concern, but school spirit and "where your friends go to school" will never let it get TOO much out of hand. Unless maybe the entire middle school baseball team all decides to go to the same school, to be with their "friends"......

I'm beginning to confuse myself.....

[Wufman]

We agree,,, and furthermore, with every single system,,,, "somebody somewhere" will always figure out a way to beat the system. I won't call any names,,, remember "you're" the one who mentioned the Independence football program, not me(haha).

[NCBBallFan]

Wuffie

Remember... We have Independence Football, Hopewell Softball, Central Cabarrus Softball, Vance Men's Basketball and Vance Women's Basketball all in our conference.

That is the current 4A state champ in Football (3 years running), the last 3 4A state champs in softball and Vance is playing for joint Men/Women's state championships this weekend in basketball. Throw in North's State Champs in Cross Country in 2000, 2001. Everyone in this conference is used to getting murdered by someone.

Talk about having some tough games during the season.

[Wufman]

I will have to say one thing about Central Cabarrus in their defense (and it hurts--ha),,, but we have a pretty strict transfer policy in Cabarrus County and no such thing as school choice. Central Cabarrus does NOT recruit. They simply have a very strong girls softball program with a strong feeder program in Harrisburg and Midland for young girls wanting to learn how to play at an early age. They are clearly building a strong program the RIGHT way, just to make it clear. In fact, I wish we (at Kannapolis) had a place for girls to play softball before school ball.

[NCBBallFan]

Originally posted by Prepster
A couple of brief, clarifying points:

(1) I am FAR from certain, myself, that my friend's recommendation should be followed. Rather, I find it an interesting approach to consider; one that requires a lot of thought, beforehand.

(2) For me, the core issue has a lot less to do about losing, itself, than it does about relegating kids who are passionate about the game to an environment that can't be as good developmentally as one they might find close by....along with a resource question for the school system.

We got kinda side-lined there for a little bit. I think Prepster's observations merit discussion by someone other than me with my evident talent for B.S. -- I wanted to bring them back into the fore-front so we could re-focus.

[Braves]

I have two points to make about this subject;

1. Any talented football players wanting to have an immediate impact on a football team...transfer to South Meck.

2. I don't believe in a poor sports program....but I do believe in a poor coach

Mike Shildt proved this point at West Charlotte

A committed coach with a good background could turn around any program (and yes, that goes for Garinger as well). If he/she is willing to sacrifice the time it takes to oversee the feeder programs, get involved with summer teams, have organized developmental practices and get the community involved with your visions, you can turn ANY program around...I am firmly convinced of that. But the key word is commitment.

I believe it is the responsibility of the community to support and demand standards of their school. Now some of those standards may be too high, but that is not the problem. It's when the community doesn't care anymore ( such as HS baseball @ select schools) that I get concerned.

Sometimes, I wish Vicki Hamilton could take a proactive role and selection of coaches for a particular school. In the case of Garinger, I would insist that the coach for that school display a history of turning around a program like that. It can be done and should be done.

[NCBBallFan]

Originally posted by Prepster
The person beside me was offering the opinion that the Charlotte school system ought to offer schools the option of not fielding a baseball team, COUPLED WITH the opportunity for players at those schools to play at a nearby school of their choice.

After reading Braves' very passionate reply, the approach outlined above sounds more like killing the messenger because you don't like what he has to say.

Keep the program. And you need to provide an incentive to improve.... You can't just say "poor {insert school name here}, we forgive you for being poor...."


p.s. No one has ever accused me of being a diplomat, nor does this situation warant one in my opinion

[Braves]

I'm so passionate about this problem that if I had a teaching certificate or a guarantee for 3 years employment as the BB coach @ Garinger, I would turn that program around and compete for the championship in 3 years....that's the kind of attitude that school should demand

[NCBBallFan]

Do you think keeping their scores out of the paper (and off of any website) is providing their program a service?

Yes, it cuts down the embarressment for the players.

No, it cuts down the embarressment to the administration.

[Braves]

Yes, but for this reason only...I don't think those kids should be embarrassed. In fact, I think they should be celebrated because every game they show up and try their hardest. They don't disrespect the game and they don't disrespect their opponents.

I'd say it is pretty easy to show up for a game that you know is going to be competitive. How difficult would it be to show up and know you are going to lose? Those guys show up to play every game and I admire them for that.

Now for the administration...that's a different situation..shame, shame, shame. Obviously, they feel their priorities should be placed elsewhere. But sports is a self esteem lifter for a school with very little of it.

[NCBBallFan]

Originally posted by Braves
Yes, but for this reason only...I don't think those kids should be embarrassed. In fact, I think they should be celebrated because every game they show up and try their hardest. They don't disrespect the game and they don't disrespect their opponents.


A very persuasive and and powerful argument. I agree the kids are showing REMARKABLE guts. They SHOULD be honored in trying their hardest.

Is not posting the score in the newspaper tantamount to a "sin of omission" by NOT holding the school accountable? Are there real players there who won't go out because of the history? Players that have given up on the game because the school has (in essence) given up on them? Given the right situation & coach, are there ALREADY enough decent players at the school to make them respectable, if not competitive in the lower half of the conference?

[Mudcat]

I think this would only work if schools did drop certain sports. The rich wouldn;t get richer quite so easy if Meck did what our county did a few years back. We have an open transfer policy. If a kid transfers to another school in the county, he can. But if he participated in a varsity sport at the school he left, then he has to set out a year in that sport, unless his family moved in that school district.

[Braves]

Mudcat

Last year was " Open Season " in Charlotte

Now, our rules are the same as yours..must sit out a year unless parents move into that district

[rcbbfan]

A couple of things come to mind here for me.

1) As a parent of a pretty good athlete, I want my kid to play with the best team against the best competition that he can, because that's what HE wants. It doesn't matter if it's a school team, summer team, or a showcase team. The important thing to me is that it's HIS decision. As long as I can afford it and the time is there for him to be 100% dedicated to that team.

It's only natural to me that the best players want to play in a winning program. So he wants to transfer to another school. Does it really matter as long as he gets his education? Is that not what HS is for?

2) The other thing is "commitment". Doesn't a player owe it to his teammates, coaches, school, and even his community to finish what he starts? I'm sorry but I'm pretty big on commitment. It's not only a sports lesson but a life lesson as well.

Maybe a compromise is in order. Let a kid go to which ever school he wants his freshman year but if he wants to transfer after that let him sit out a season. It works for the NCAA.

[gonzo]

I have posted my feelings on this for two years on the old charlotte.com. The players are Garinger (and some of the other schools including Waddell) are to be commended. They practice as often as the other schools. They play as often as the other schools. Garinger (the last two years, cannot speak for this year) always had a group of young men who worked hard against very high odds to play baseball. Have they had the best coaching? No. Do they have the parental support of say a South Meck or Myers Park? No. Yet every game they are there, trying to win their first game. And they do it with sportsmanship. No elbows in the first baseman's back, no high spike slides, no head shots with a 4 seamer.

Braves, give me 6 months to get my life settled down and I will come be your assistant.

[Prepster]

I'm going to take one more shot at this, and then I'm going to let it lie...and, I'd like to say up-front that I'm going to sound more like an advocate here of the position my friend was espousing than I really feel. Rather, I think it's something that everyone in a position of responsiblity involving scholastic baseball ought to think about.

Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with "School Choice." That's a completely separate and unrelated topic.

The concern behind this is that there a couple (several?) of Charlotte-area schools that are located in areas where feeder programs are virtually nonexistent or nonexistent, altogether.

As sentimentally attracted as I am to the notion that it's up to the "challenged" school's administration to find the next Mike Shildt or "Braves/Gonzo" duo to come in and inject sufficient energy into the program to revitalize it, I worry. My worry is that, while awaiting their arrival, a steady procession of a few kids per year who are genuinely interested in the game get chewed up and spit out because of the "challenged" school's environment.

As an alternative, why not consider giving the principal and athletic director the latitude to "rest" the baseball program? That school's players who were sufficiently interested to continue would be given the freedom to choose from the couple of programs maintained in their "Choice District;" and, once they'd made that choice, they'd be bound to the same transfer limitations imposed upon all other players.

This "resting" need not be permanent. As a "Mike Shildt-type" coach steps forward or changes in the nature of feeder programs take place, the sport could eventually be reinstated.

Meanwhile, we'd provide a quality high school baseball experience to some players who, in a few cases for many years, have been deprived of it.

[NCBBallFan]

There is no solution for this problem to be found on this board, because we don't have the power or authority to make changes. It is good for everyone to be aware of the situation.

For the scores in question.... please send them to me via Private Message and I will post the results as appropriate, showing courtesy to the players involved.

If a player from the team in question does well in your game against them, please submit that to me also via PM, so that he may receive appropriate public recognition for his efforts, without reflecting the score or the opponent.

I will do my best to make the posts as "delicate" as possible. Players who deserve to be recognized for effort or performance should have that privilege on this board also, regardless of school attended.

[Braves]

I like Gonzo'a idea best of all...:flipgrin:

[DodgerBlues]

I can't get too worked up about the good player who excels at his poor school but who gets to play from day one beginning his freshman year -- even if he is losing all the time. At least he's getting to play for his school and getting to test his skills against the best players.

I have a lot more sympathy for the pretty good player at a school with a lot of players trying out -- like South Meck, Providence, Myers Park, North Meck, etc., who gets cut from the team because he just didn't get noticed in the big numbers at tryouts, or because he had a bad day at the plate in tryouts, or because he just moved in to town and isn't known to the coaches, or because, even though he's a very good third baseman, there are 3 others a little better than him, or, worse yet, because he didn't have the right answer to the question "so where do you play your year round baseball?" when the coach asked him. Or the player riding the pine all the time who would start at many other schools.

I know several of those type players who considered transfering so they could play but decided they'd rather stay in school with their friends. Some of them are sitting on the bench, some are running track, others are playing lacrosse. You can certainly argue that they too should be allowed to go play baseball somewhere else if they wanted. In fact, I'd love to coach a team of the "cast-offs" cut from those programs -- I bet that team would compete and I bet it would be a team that would work hard to prove something.

At the end of the day, though, I believe that high school athletics should be about competing for one's school as part of a team, not about one's personal situation. In that "lab of life" our kids learn that life is not always fair, that they need to learn to make the best out of a tough situation, that "when life dishes out lemons they need to make lemonade", etc., etc. Hard lessons for kids, but valuable ones they will take with them. I only wish we parents would let them learn those lessons along the way in stead of trying to "fix" everything for them.

Those players interested in and talented enough for a career in baseball have lots of alternatives outside of and in addition to their school situation. They are not going to miss out on their future careers because they languished (playing, for goodness sakes) in a weak high school program.

[Braves]

Wow...very well said DodgerBlue. I believe I was just going to say the same thing :D

But, I still say that it is a correctable situation at the offending schools; however, your points are very compelling and true

[Chief]

Reminiscing part II