should palmiero be in the hall of fame?

[LarryD]

38 homers for however many straight seasons, 100 RBIs, too. he'll hit at least 500 homers.

but he's never been an all-star starter, never played in a world series and has never led the league in HRs.

i dunno.

[mattarific]

I wouldn't vote for him, like you say he's not a regular all-star and no rings.....plus 500 homers will seem like nothing in 5 or so years.

[KLSnow]

To belong in the Hall of Fame, in my mind, there needs to be a period in history where you were the single greatest player. Palmeiro never won an MVP, and was consistently solid but never led the league in most categories. I don't think he belongs.

But I will say this: If there's any doubt to a guy's Hall of Fame credientials, he probably won't get in. Certainly not right away. Baseball is the only sport that is extremely selective in who gets in and who does not...which causes problems in cases like Bert Blyleven and Jack Morris but will save the Hall of Fame from marginal players like Palmeiro and hopefully Fred McGriff. I'm a proponent that Cooperstown is a place for baseball history. A place for people to go to learn about great players from the days of old...guys like Napoleon Lajoie, Charlie Gehringer, Frank Chance....great players the baseball world would forget if not for the Hall of Fame. Cluttering it with semi-superstars just takes away from those who are already there.

[mattarific]

I totally agree ksl

[UNCfever]

Is this the last year for him? If not then I think it will depend on how much longer he plays and the numbers he can't put forth. I compared his numbers to Bonds who is the same age and they just didn't seem close enough to even compare.

I really think for a player to make the Hall in todays time, they have to put up some type of numbers that will make people remember whether it's offense, defense or pitching.

Palmeiro has put up some very nice numbers, but when somebody mentions his name to me, I am like "so what".

[DaveW]

To belong in the Hall of Fame, in my mind, there needs to be a period in history where you were the single greatest player.

if this were the case, there would be about 20 guys in the hall of fame. How long would a player have to be the single greatest player? 1 year? 5 years?


500 and he is in. There is only 17 or 18 players with 500 homeruns. Think about the 1000's of players who have been in the majors. To be able to last in the Majors long enough to hit 500 is worthy of hall of fame consideration on it's own. you have to average around 33 homeruns a year for 15 years to hit 500. Palemerio should be in with no problems.

[DaveW]

I compared his numbers to Bonds who is the same age and they just didn't seem close enough to even compare


if you try to compare anyone to Bonds and they wont seem close enough to compare.

[vpkozel]

NO. 500 homers in this Homer Happy era is not good enough. By the way, here is a great site to compare stats.

Baseball Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/)

[UNCfever]

Originally posted by DaveW
I compared his numbers to Bonds who is the same age and they just didn't seem close enough to even compare


if you try to compare anyone to Bonds and they wont seem close enough to compare.

That's my point, there has to be a mark or standard to measure against, and to me that standard needs to be evaluated each year.

So in the next 10-15 years you will see a lot more players than ever before hit the 500 homer mark, so all of them should be in based on the one stat?


So who should we compare his numbers to? Dave Kingman, Jim Rice, Bob Horner, I am sure we can find somebody that his numbers will just blow away so that he needs to be in the Hall.

[UNCfever]

Originally posted by vpkozel
NO. 500 homers in this Homer Happy era is not good enough. By the way, here is a great site to compare stats.

Baseball Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/)


Damn nice site! Thanks for the link.

[KLSnow]

I also use Baseball Reference for most of my research, and I agree it's probably the most useful baseball history site on the web. Of course, as I say that, I'm wearing my baseball-almanac.com floppy hat. But still.

I don't think you can argue that 500 home runs is the end-all for the Hall of Fame, because the meaning of simple stats like that can change. As proof I give you Gavvy Cravath, who led the big leagues in home runs in 1913, '14, '15, '17, '18, and '19, with 19, 19, 24, 12, 8 and 12, respectively.

As for my earlier argument about being the greatest player of your time, let me expand on it. To me, if you win an MVP, you belong in the Hall of Fame. To me that means you were the best player of your league for that season. It doesn't always work that way, but for the most part it does.

Take Robin Yount, for example. Had he been a center fielder his entire career, he's probably not a Hall of Famer. But because for a while he was a great shortstop plus a great hitter, he was the most valuable player in baseball at several points in the early 80's.

Palmeiro played a solid defensive first base, won a few Gold Gloves (but also once won a Gold Glove and DH of the Year at the same time), and put up some good numbers, but he was never the best player in the league, and in a lot of seasons not even the best on his team. I don't think he's worthy.

[KLSnow]

Before I forget to do it I'm going to cement my "not best player on his own team" argument. Palmeiro was in the top 8 in the MVP voting in 1993, 1996 and 1999, but never finished higher than 5th.

In 1993 (w/ Texas) he hit .295 with 37 HR and 105 RBI
Juan Gonzalez hit .310 with 46 HR and 118 RBI

In 1996 (w/ Baltimore) he hit .289 with 39 HR and 142 RBI, but hit behind:
Brady Anderson: .297, 50 HR, 110 RBI and
Roberto Alomar: .328, 22 HR, .410 OBP

In 1999 (back w/ Texas) he hit .324 with 47 HR and 148 RBI, and only played 28 games in the field (but still won a Gold Glove)

Juan Gonzalez and Pudge Rodriguez both played the field for most of the season (Gonzalez played 16 games at DH, Pudge 1) and both hit .326+, with 35+ HR and 113+ RBI. Pudge finished one hit shy of 200 and stole 25 bases, too.

[LarryD]

whatever happened to...

Originally posted by KLSnow
Brady Anderson: .297, 50 HR, 110 RBI and

[Xcaliber]

Personally I dont think baseball is at the point where 500 homers won't get you into the hall just yet. I know the league now is homerun happy but he was consistently hitting homeruns before the increase in homers. I think the standards will change after guys like Palmeiro, McGriff and Griffey get 500. So pretty much I expect him to get in but probably not right away.

[Bunky]

he deserves to get in. i was listening or reading this argument recently, and the selling point was the 500 hr/ 1700 rbi/ something else category that he is only 1 of 9 to reach. The whole time maintaing a .290 + average. He has done this while playing fulltime at first base. This isn't a Eddie Murray situation where he has extended his numbers by DH'ing for the last 5 years of his career. Regardless the fact that he has not won a MVP, or WS, or much else for that matter, to say he was NOT one of the Top 1B of MLB is shortsighted and ignorant.

[Yuck]

Originally posted by LarryD
whatever happened to...



Brady Anderson - I read an article somewhere about him recently. He's playing with the Padres (?) AAA team. From what I got from the article, his intent is getting back to the majors, but their intent is to groom him for a coaching position. He knows his shit when it comes to talking hitting, I can see him as a minor league manager.

[Bunky]

Originally posted by Mr Yuck


Brady Anderson - I read an article somewhere about him recently. He's playing with the Padres (?) AAA team. From what I got from the article, his intent is getting back to the majors, but their intent is to groom him for a coaching position. He knows his shit when it comes to talking hitting, I can see him as a minor league manager.

he was released.

[KLSnow]

K, a whole bunch of arguments at once:

Brady Anderson: Signed a rather large contract after the huge 1999 season he had, got released by the O's after failing to gain a roster spot a couple of years later...released by the Indians last season, and I remember hearing about him in camp with someone this spring, but essentially his career is over.

If you'd like an argument for what steroids can do to someone, I'd point you to him...never hit more than 16 HR from 1993-1995, got suddenly huge and then hit 50 in 1996, and then fell right back off faster than you can say Albert Belle.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Palmeiro played 135 games as a DH in 1999. Since then he has toned it down, playing 46, 46 and 55 games as a DH in 2000, 2001 and 2002, respectively. But that's still enough for me to say the DH aided his career. Can anyone here imagine what Ted Williams or Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth could have done if they had been allowed to take the day off in the field 300 times in their last 4 seasons? They may all have gained 2 or 3 years.

[law1ng2b]

KL,
maybe i got lost somewhere in there, but did i see where you said that if a guy wins the MVP, then he should be in the hall of fame?

"To me, if you win an MVP, you belong in the Hall of Fame."

here is a list of guys who won MVP awards and do not deserve to be in the hall of fame...

Mo Vaughn
Terry Pendleton
Dale Murphy (won twice)
Ken Caminiti
Willie Hernandez

Jim Rice will probably have to wait until he is eligible for the veteran's committee.

the jury is still out on these recent winners...
Ishiro
Tejada
Kent
Juan Gonzalez

maybe i am missing something here, but it seems ridiculous to say that a guy has to win the MVP in order to get into the hall. Kirby Puckett never won an MVP...neither did Lou Brock...or Dave Winfield...what about Eddie Murray?

i might would come close to agreeing with you if you said that a guy needed to be the best player in a specific time period at HIS position in order to be considered.

as for Palmiero, i say he is in. the guy is a lifetime .292 hitter...has hit over .300 6 times...won three straight gold gloves...he will have over 2700 hits and 500 home runs. check this out from MLB.com where they put him in perspective among today's players...

'Among active players is 3rd in doubles and rbi, 4th in at bats (8446), runs, hits, and total bases, 5th in games, and 6th in home runs and sacrifice flies (91-tied)...Is tied for 54th all-time with 9 grand slam homers...Has the most homers in history among all players whose last name ended in "P"...Over the last 10 years (1992-2001), ranks 3rd among all major league players in rbi (1134), is 4th in hits (1680), and is 5th in homers (374)...In the last 5 seasons (1997-2001), places 5th in homers (214) and rbi (622).'

all this by playing virtually everyday...he has played in 98.5% of his team's games over the past 11 years.

it is not all about 500 home runs...although i think that is a big part of it. but i think he has done enough to warrant induction...a first ballot inductee??? maybe not...but he deserves to be in.

[KLSnow]

K, I'll admit maybe the MVP alone doesn't cut it. I do think Dale Murhpy should be a Hall of Famer, though.

About those stats you gave me on Palmeiro, some of them are useful, but some of them are ridiculous. I don't measure the strength of a player's career on how many grand slams he's hit. And having the most home runs by a player who's last name started with "P" doesn't impress me that much either...the next best P is Tony Perez, who hit 379 and ranks 47th all time. Mike Piazza, Boog Powell, Dave Parker and Lance Parrish are the only other 4 in the top 100. Jose Canseco hit more than any other C, and Andre Dawson is the greatest D of all time. Greg Vaughn is the top V.

Sac flies? You can't be serious.

Palmeiro has had a solid but never really great big league career. If you want to put him in the Hall of Fame you'd better enshrine him right next to Mark Grace.

[law1ng2b]

granted...i probably should have taken out a few things of that passage...i simply did a cut and paste. i agree that sac flies, grand slams, and most homeruns by any player with the last name that starts with 'p' does not make you hall of fame material. but the others simply put him in the 'elite' of the players of his time in the big leagues. look at them...and you simply mention that they are useful? in the last 10 years, he is in the top 5 in hits, rbi, and HR. plus he won three gold gloves.

you want to compare him to mark grace? are you kidding me? with the exception of BA, his numbers pale in comparison to Raffy.

Palmiero .292 BA, 527 2b, 499 hr, 1594 rbi,.523 slg
Grace .304 BA , 509 2b, 171 hr, 1139 rbi, .444 slg

wanna look at some other first basemen that are already there?

Orlando Cepeda (inducted in 1999)
.297 ba, 417 2b, 379 hr, 1365 rbi
Harmon Killebrew (1984)
.256 ba, 290 2b, 573hr, 1584 rbi,
Tony Perez (2000)
.279, 505 2b, 379 hr, 1652 rbi
Willie McCovey (1986)
.270, 353 2b, 521 hr, 1555 rbi
Eddie Murray (2003)
.287, 560 2b, 504 hr, 1917 rbi

Raffy's numbers are right there with these guys. you may want to argue that Cepeda and Perez are not HOF material, and i won't give you much of an arguement there. but only one of these guys had the luxury of getting in via the veteran's committee (Cepeda) the rest were voted in...and no one will argue with Killebrew, McCovey, and Murray belong there.

[vpkozel]

I still don't think that he should be in the hall, but this is pretty freaking impressive.

From Gammons' Diamond Notes

What truly makes Rafael Palmeiro special is that he has been there, playing 97 percent of his team's games for 17 years. In that same mold? Garrett Anderson. "I believe reliability is extremely important," said the Angels' star left fielder. "I want to be out there, even if I don't feel well. The opposition doesn't know it."

[Braves]

Originally posted by DaveW
To belong in the Hall of Fame, in my mind, there needs to be a period in history where you were the single greatest player.

if this were the case, there would be about 20 guys in the hall of fame. How long would a player have to be the single greatest player? 1 year? 5 years?


500 and he is in. There is only 17 or 18 players with 500 homeruns. Think about the 1000's of players who have been in the majors. To be able to last in the Majors long enough to hit 500 is worthy of hall of fame consideration on it's own. you have to average around 33 homeruns a year for 15 years to hit 500. Palemerio should be in with no problems.

:xyzthumbs...he will be in...and deservedly so. The man can play the game and consistently. Probably the most underrated player of his time. If only he played for the Yankees...we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[two-six]

Originally posted by Braves


:xyzthumbs...he will be in...and deservedly so. The man can play the game and consistently. Probably the most underrated player of his time. If only he played for the Yankees...we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Well said Braves :applause:

After reading this thread, I think I need to bump him to my Most Underrated Players Thread. He is easily deserving of the HOF.
As far as being the best player on his team. Not such an easy task when you're playing around some guy named Ripken and a kid named Gonzalez.