Does anyone find it strange...

[The Brain]

...that baseball's best closer is a former starter that had to hire a psychiatrist to help him get past his problem of finishing out games??

[LarryD]

gagne was never a starter.

[mattarific]

yes he was

[two-six]

Originally posted by The Brain
...that baseball's best closer is a former starter that had to hire a psychiatrist to help him get past his problem of finishing out games??

yes, i do find that quite strange actually

[The Brain]

Originally posted by LarryD
gagne was never a starter. :rolleyes: This is one you can't even argue... right now... no matter HOW much you hate the Braves... Smoltz IS the game's best closer

[vpkozel]

Originally posted by The Brain
:rolleyes: This is one you can't even argue... right now... no matter HOW much you hate the Braves... Smoltz IS the game's best closer

Ummmmm. I'll have an order of "you certainly can argue that gagne is better" please. And they were both starters (but I don't know if gagne ever started in the majors).

Stats

Pitcher YEAR G GS IP H R ER HR BB SO W L Hld Sv BS BAA WHIP ERA


Smoltz 2003 32 0 34.1 26 3 3 0 5 44 0 0 0 24 1 .206 0.90 0.79

Gagne 2003 30 0 31.0 13 7 7 1 6 56 1 1 0 21 0 .125 0.61 2.03

[DaveW]

Gagne may get the job done but he is going to give his manager heart failure before years end. 2.09 whip is teetering on a disasterous inning. He will get eventually get bitten in the ass.

[vpkozel]

Originally posted by DaveW
Gagne may get the job done but he is going to give his manager heart failure before years end. 2.09 whip is teetering on a disasterous inning. He will get eventually get bitten in the ass.

His ERA is 2.03 (I assume that is what you were talking about). His WHIP is 0.61 (vs. Smoltz's 0.90).

What does WHIP stand for? Walks+Hits per Innings Pitched?

[DaveW]

oh...nevermind what i said

[Chisox17]

no one is close to smoltz

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Chisox17
no one is close to smoltz


except gagne

[The Brain]

if you were picking a Fantasy team you'd damn sure pick up Smoltz before you would Gagne.... any arguments???

[Big Russ]

I'd pick Smoltz because I'm a Braves fan.

As far as how effective they are. I don't see one being noticably better than the other. They both get it done.

[DaveW]

Originally posted by The Brain
if you were picking a Fantasy team you'd damn sure pick up Smoltz before you would Gagne.... any arguments???

I would pick smoltz first but to say no one is close to Smoltz is absurd. The numbers dont lie.

[two-six]

Originally posted by The Brain
if you were picking a Fantasy team you'd damn sure pick up Smoltz before you would Gagne.... any arguments???

i'd take smoltz...i think experience is probably the difference in ERAs between the two. if you look at the rest of the #'s they're almost identical, or even in gagne's favor a bit. but experience is the key to winning, and smoltz is the best closer in the game because of that.

doesn't hurt that he has 3 of the nastiest pitches in the show

[vpkozel]

Originally posted by The Brain
if you were picking a Fantasy team you'd damn sure pick up Smoltz before you would Gagne.... any arguments???

I would take Smoltz - but that is because the Braves have a much better team than the Dodgers, which means that Smoltz stands to save more games. As for pure individual stats, I think Gagne has the better ones. If they are both pitching as well as they can and my life is on the line if the guy gets a hit - I'd take Gagne, because when he is on he is simply unhittable. But that wasn't what you were originally talking about.

[smashmouth5]

If your the other team and you're down by one in the 9th who would you rather face, Smoltz or Gagne? I think that if you asked, most would say Gagne. Smoltz has 4 pitches that he can throw at anytime and get you out.


I also believe the Braves ran Gagne off the field last time the Dodgers and Braves got together.:D

[The Brain]

Originally posted by vpkozel


I would take Smoltz - but that is because the Braves have a much better team than the Dodgers, which means that Smoltz stands to save more games. As for pure individual stats, I think Gagne has the better ones. If they are both pitching as well as they can and my life is on the line if the guy gets a hit - I'd take Gagne, because when he is on he is simply unhittable. But that wasn't what you were originally talking about. dude that's a crap reason... if they are THAT much better then their games wouldn;t be close enough to save that often... and the KEY stat.. ecspecially in fantasy ball is that ERA and strikeouts...

[DaveW]

Originally posted by The Brain
dude that's a crap reason... if they are THAT much better then their games wouldn;t be close enough to save that often... and the KEY stat.. ecspecially in fantasy ball is that ERA and strikeouts...


oll...dude shut up while you still can.

[The Brain]

Originally posted by DaveW



oll...dude shut up while you still can. still can't prove me wrong... you hate that too... don't cha?

[vpkozel]

Originally posted by The Brain
dude that's a crap reason... if they are THAT much better then their games wouldn;t be close enough to save that often... and the KEY stat.. ecspecially in fantasy ball is that ERA and strikeouts...

Dude. You are an idiot. I am no fantasy goober, so I don't know the scores for the 2 of them - why don't you post them and then we can see if there is as big a descrepency as you seem to imply. However to your first point, I crunched some numbers that prove without a doubt that your assertion here is just plain stoopid.

NAME G AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
Braves 61 2130 352 615 125 14 98 1062 338 208 351 32 8 .289 .354 .499 .853
Opponents 61 2071 285 519 120 9 57 828 269 239 382 31 16 .251 .325 .400 .725

NAME G AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
Dodgers 62 2067 220 511 108 9 39 754 205 161 374 28 11 .247 .310 .365 .675
Opponents 62 2032 201 450 85 8 47 692 186 192 528 47 26 .221 .288 .341 .628

Runs/Game # Games Average Score Differential
Braves 352 61 5.77 1.10
Opponents 285 61 4.67

Dodgers 220 62 3.55 0.31
Opponents 201 62 3.24

The first set of stats is the offensive production of both the Braves and Dodgers and their opponents so far this year. From that I took each teams runs scored and allowed, divided it by the number of games and came up with an average game score. You can see that the Braves average score is over 1 run a game higher than the Dodgers. But it is still WELL BELOW the 3 run lead needed to qualify for a save. So this tells me the following that on average Smoltz can give up a run and still get the save, whereas Gagne is pitching with no room for error - because if he gives upa run the game is tied (again on average). Of course these are all averages and they can be misleading, but I don't have the time to research the scores and situations for each time these 2 guys came into the game.

Please remember that I am not arguing that Smoltz is not good - or even that he is not better than Gagne. I am arguing that you can certainly make a case that Gagne is teh best closer. Don't forget to post the stats.

[The Brain]

quit being a dork I wasn't arguing Smoltz vs Gagne in that last argument... just your reasoning that Atlanta is a better team as to why you'd take him... and you know that

[vpkozel]

Originally posted by The Brain
quit being a dork I wasn't arguing Smoltz vs Gagne in that last argument... just your reasoning that Atlanta is a better team as to why you'd take him... and you know that


Huh? You said that if the Braves were that much better then he wouldn't get whole bunch of saves because the games wouldn't be close enough. Then you said that the important things were era and strikeouts. That is exactly what I responded to. Don't get mad at me if you can't get your point across. Oh - and still waiting on those stats.....


Originally posted by The Brain
dude that's a crap reason... if they are THAT much better then their games wouldn;t be close enough to save that often... and the KEY stat.. ecspecially in fantasy ball is that ERA and strikeouts...

[DaveW]

Originally posted by The Brain
dude that's a crap reason... if they are THAT much better then their games wouldn;t be close enough to save that often... and the KEY stat.. ecspecially in fantasy ball is that ERA and strikeouts...


you have to be winning to get an opportunity at a save, sherlock

[The Brain]

no my point is that is if you ranked the Braves as that much better than the Dodgers then the Braves games wouldn't be close enough to save... they'd be winning by for or 5 runs and Smoltz wouldn't have a reason to get off the bench

[Xcaliber]

According to the fantasy league I'm in Gagne is the better fantasy player. Plus Gagne is 27, Smoltz is 36. I also think Smoltz has had a few more arm operations than Gagne. I'll take Gagne.

[RSgal]

I'd pick Gagne, for the simple reason that the Braves make me want to vomit. :D

Really though, the stats of these two guys are so similar...I'd be happy to have either of them.

[vpkozel]

Originally posted by The Brain
no my point is that is if you ranked the Braves as that much better than the Dodgers then the Braves games wouldn't be close enough to save... they'd be winning by for or 5 runs and Smoltz wouldn't have a reason to get off the bench

And that is why I did the comparison - to see if your logic held up. It didn't as the averages say that the Braves win by ONE run per game. And xcalibur's post shoots down your other theory as well - that Smoltz has better fantasy numbers. And none of this changes the fact that you were saying that Smoltz has no one even close to him - yet it is clear that there is a VERY good case to be made that Gagne is not only close to him, but BETTER.

[two-six]

well i'm with brain on this one. maybe not in the way he said it, but i'm taking smoltz anyday. fantasy, real-life, doesn't matter. its all about experience, and there are not many in the league, starters or relievers that have his kind. he is a money pitcher, just look at his win/loss in the playoffs. yes, gagne is very good. but i go back to the ERA. i think that is the one stat where experience really shows.

[vpkozel]

fair enough 26, but Gagne's ERA seems to have basically been skewed by one really bad outing against the Braves where he gave up 3 runs in 1/3 of an inning - for an ERA of 108 - on May 12.

Gagne (http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/players/profile?statsId=6342)

[DaveW]

you are as happy as a pig in shit if you have either in fantasy baseball. saves are a bitch

[two-six]

Originally posted by vpkozel
fair enough 26, but Gagne's ERA seems to have basically been skewed by one really bad outing against the Braves where he gave up 3 runs in 1/3 of an inning - for an ERA of 108 - on May 12.

Gagne (http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/players/profile?statsId=6342)

you do make a good point there. similar to last year when smoltz got lit up by the mets in the first few weeks. it took well into the summer to get the ERA back down.

[vpkozel]

More evidence that brain was talking out his ass.... :D

Baseball prospectus reliever ratings.

Baseball Prospectus Top 30
(As of Sept. 12)
Player rating salary
S. Hasegawa 28.4 $1.8M
B. Wagner 27.3 $8M
Eric Gagne 27.0 $550K
R. Cormier 26.9 $2.98M
B. Donnelly 26.7 $325K
G. Mota 25.3 $675K
D. Riske 22.7 $314K
J. Smoltz 22.4 $10.67M


On a different note 550K? Gagne is in for a BIGGGGGG raise soon.

[Shrapnel]

Jesse Orosco

[Turbo]

Bruce Sutter

[Turbo]

Dennis Eckersley

[Turbo]

Rollie Fingers

[Franchise]

Originally posted by The Brain
:rolleyes: This is one you can't even argue... right now... no matter HOW much you hate the Braves... Smoltz IS the game's best closer

how can he be the best and on the DL? Gagne has set records and will win the Cy Young....he IS the best.

[two-six]

Originally posted by Franchise


how can he be the best and on the DL? Gagne has set records and will win the Cy Young....he IS the best.

you just answered your own question. gagne will do both of those, BECAUSE smoltz is on the DL. fuckin leech. that was smoltz's record and his cy young.