View Full Version : There's Something Fundamentally Wrong with Me
Let me first say that I'm not posting this to whine, brag, or feel sorry for myself, nor even to ask for advice, though anyone who wants to is free to express their opinion. I don't expect this to be interesting to anyone but me, and it's extremely wordy (surprised?), but putting things on screen/paper sometimes helps me realize things I didn't before.
I've got some weird hormone/phermone thing going on lately, and it's really hilighting what I believe is a fundamental flaw in my personality. Lately, I've had a lot of opportunities to score strange pussy, and I'm not trying at all, but situations keep arising and decent and even hot girls are making themselves eerily available, and even though I'm generally decent looking and have a decent body, I know I'm not the hottest guy in the world, plus I'm short.
Today, I'm walking out of work, waiting to cross 7th street, and 2 girls in a car waiting to make a left yell out, "Nice pants!". The driver is hot, like skanky, stripper hot, complete with tats and piercings, and of course, she's got a heavy friend in the passenger seat. I didn't understand what they were saying and looked at them funny, so the driver says, "You want a ride?". No sooner are the words out of her mouth when some strange voice, apparently mine, says, "Hell, yeah!". I have no fucking clue where it came from, especially since my minivan is less than 50 feet away, and I really had no intention of taking a ride, but I walk over to the car, still waiting at the light, and start talking to the driver. I comment on her tats, tell her she looks good, and ask her where they're going, and we exchange names. She says they're going to Vinnie's and why don't I stop by later for drinks. I told her I would and took her cell phone number. The whole time she's just got her car in the middle of the street and the light has turned red and green 3 times, and people are honking. Right now I am sitting here typing this instead of riding to Vinnie's, contemplating if I should throw away the number to avoid the temptation to fuck a girl that would probably not even care that I'm married.
It really would have been just cool if I could accept it as a pleasant occurrance and compliment and let it go, but the sad fact is that I would love to fuck this and just about every other girl I think looks good. This and the other related situations in my life really have me wondering what the fuck is wrong with me that I can't refrain from thinking of such things, especially considering that I REALLY, REALLY enjoy my life in general and get TONS of sex. I have got to figure out and disarm this thing before I do something I can't undo, because so far, without getting into too much detail, I haven't fucked anyone, and I know I can't let that happen. However, the fact that I haven't actually fucked anyone really only makes it marginally better than if I had. I mean, I'm still wanting to, still essentially deceptive for not revealing my conflict. So, I feel I need to know why I am so fucked up if I'm ever to have a chance to fix it.
What's wrong with my life in general? Nothing, and I enjoy the hell out of almost every single thing I do.
What's wrong with my sex life? The only thing that ever bugs me about my sex life definitely plays into my desire to bang other people. That is, me and my wife really love each other, and we have mindblowing sex really often, plus she lets me get a little freaky with her with the anal and other deviant things and will blow me whenever I ask. HOWEVER, my wife is essentially not someone who wants to get freaky for her own pleasure. That is, sex to her is deep and spiritual. There is nothing she does sexually with me that isn't out of pure love. There's not a depraved, selfish bone in her body. She loves my entire being. She feels her orgasms all the way through her soul to the point where she cries sometimes from coming. This is, to me, the definition of spiritual sex, and it really is the best sex. The problem is this. If I had to choose one type of sex to have, this would be it, but I would like to be able to have that occasional hostile sex, where she doesn't give a fuck about anything but my dick and really doesn't even like me that much. I'd like to be used every once in a while. Many people know only that type of sex, and I pity them, because it really is less fulfilling, but I would like it from time to time. So now I wonder why me or anyone would want what really boils down to a loveless and selfish experience, plus I feel that my desire for such a thing means that I'm essentially less spiritually developed than my wife.
I have to assume that I'm having a hard time accepting that I'm worthy of such a complete love, and based on some of my depraved desires and potential to stray, aren't I actually less than worthy? And which caused which? But I think the idea that I want to have love expressed to me in a loveless fashion makes sense based on the fact that my father really had no idea how to express love in a positive way, so some part of me associates negativity with what I wrongly came to know as love. Another part of this thing that bugs me is that my wife has ABSOLUTELY no clue about the shit that goes through my mind. I try weakly to tell her that I'm not as good and sweet as she thinks I am, but she insists that I am and really appears to have a hugely inflated perception of my goodness as a person (I really do treat her well and am considerate of her feelings when we're together). It sounds great to be thought of as better than you are, but I feel like I'm passively lying every day, and I feel pressure to improve when I don't even know if that's possible, and she's enabling those feelings. Plus, I resent that she doesn't seem to know me well enough to see through me.
So, I know in a broad sense that part of this issue is that I have a negative self image and feel unworthy of love. The question in my mind is how best to handle my future. Do I try to improve myself quitely and without rocking the boat to meet the standard that she believes I already exceed? I really don't know if that can work, because part of my negative self image comes from a sense that I've been deceptive. So then, do I tell her everything I've done and thought over these many years in an effort to truly reform, and hope that she can deal with an atomic bomb going off in her little world? It's more honest, and probably more healthy in the long run, but it would seem insane to risk the destruction of such a great relationship when I could just suck it up and attempt to control my behavior, if not my thoughts. And the scariest thought for me: is there simply an insurmountable spiritual divide between my wife and I? I really believe that people grow at their own pace,spiritually and otherwise, and I know that I'll get to where I need to go, but I know based on past experience that I have little control over how fast I spiritually mature, but that it will happen. But what if the slow pace of my development and fast pace of hers leaves me dragging her down and her unwittingly making me feel inferior? That's scary shit to me. I love my wife and know that there is no way I could find anyone else with a comparable overall package of looks, abilities, common interests and enjoyable time together, communication ability, and capacity to love, but is it possible that I'd be better off with someone as flawed as myself? The crazy thing is that this is a huge conflict inside me, yet I can't at all say I'm unhappy. I really enjoy life every day. I guess I'd have to say that I'm not unhappy, but I am a little scared.
I see a red corvette in your life or maybe a red 64 goat convertible. Also a Donzi with a name like wavebanger
How long have you been feeling this way?
I don't really know. To a degree, since the beginning, but I see her spiritual growth accellerating recently and finally was able to put my finger on it.
Originally posted by VOR
I see a red corvette in your life or maybe a red 64 goat convertible. Also a Donzi with a name like wavebanger
Uh, I think you're referring to the '99 Harley Fat Boy that's on it's way to my house from Miami...
Originally posted by sadic1
Uh, I think you're referring to the '99 Harley Fat Boy that's on it's way to my house from Miami...
No my vision is clear, you're still working a gradient.
Do you want to grow more spiritually?
Originally posted by VOR
No my vision is clear, you're still working a gradient.
OK, but I want my Corvette yellow.
Originally posted by Patti
Do you want to grow more spiritually?
Absolutely, but I know that for me it's not a matter of "making it happen". It's a matter of putting my heart in a place to "allow it to happen". In other words, I can't control how fast that happens.
sounds like that might be the real conflict there,, but you're transferring that to the difference between you and her. I know you are aware of it, but it's not her fault.
two-six
06-13-03, 12:32 AM
you got cliff notes for that?
WilliamJ
06-13-03, 12:33 AM
dude, your a guy. guys think about fucking hot women. good guys stay faithful to their wives even though they think about fucking hot women.
the incident at the light did not happen. you were fantacizing about how it would be to have that hot chick in the car blatantly hit on you. good story though.
the rest of your tale....keep looking for that spirituality, it will find you. in the meantime keep digging your wife and the blessing she is in your life.
Originally posted by sadic1
It's a matter of putting my heart in a place to "allow it to happen".
Don't you think you could control that to some degree?
Originally posted by WilliamJ
dude, your a guy. guys think about fucking hot women. good guys stay faithful to their wives even though they think about fucking hot women.
the incident at the light did not happen. you were fantacizing about how it would be to have that hot chick in the car blatantly hit on you. good story though.
the rest of your tale....keep looking for that spirituality, it will find you. in the meantime keep digging your wife and the blessing she is in your life.
That is really a good post William.
Originally posted by Patti
Don't you think you could control that to some degree?
It's not unlike addiction, IMO. You can't just decide to beat it, but you have to decide to beat it or else it'll never happen.
Actually Sadic, I know where you're coming from. I believe most men (and maybe women, too, I don't know) have a need for deviance. Some of us act on it and some of us don't.
Sadic you're about 35 aren't you?
Originally posted by CharPirates26
you got cliff notes for that?
Actually, this was the first thread I ever started that I hoped nobody would read because it was too long and boring.
Originally posted by VOR
Sadic you're about 35 aren't you?
33. I know, and it's comforting to hear it.
Originally posted by Mr Yuck
Actually Sadic, I know where you're coming from. I believe most men (and maybe women, too, I don't know) have a need for deviance. Some of us act on it and some of us don't.
Women do too.
Originally posted by WilliamJ
dude, your a guy. guys think about fucking hot women. good guys stay faithful to their wives even though they think about fucking hot women.
the incident at the light did not happen. you were fantacizing about how it would be to have that hot chick in the car blatantly hit on you. good story though.
the rest of your tale....keep looking for that spirituality, it will find you. in the meantime keep digging your wife and the blessing she is in your life.
All true and well taken (except for the part about the thing at the light, which unfortunately did happen). But I've been looking for that spirituality, and I'm wondering if that's not a copout. Is there really any potential for growth if I can't be honest about my feelings?
two-six
06-13-03, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by sadic1
Actually, this was the first thread I ever started that I hoped nobody would read because it was too long and boring.
i was just funnin with ya...very good post, and you're not alone in that way of thinking. like some have said tho, its just a thought, happens to everyone
Originally posted by sadic1
33. I know, and it's comforting to hear it.
Well it goes away about 45 so enjoy. It also can complicate your life and leave you kicking yourself later. Anyway don't fret, you will find spiritual cognition comes about at the weirdest times. Just follow your heart, ignore the crotch and the head.
Originally posted by VOR
Well it goes away about 45 so enjoy. It also can complicate your life and leave you kicking yourself later. Anyway don't fret, you will find spiritual cognition comes about at the weirdest times. Just follow your heart, ignore the crotch and the head.
That is extremely comforting, so thanks. It's very true what you say about spiritual cognition, and that's something I've been aware of for a while. I worry that I'm just too far behind my wife in this respect, though, and find myself somewhat lonely not being able to tell her all the reasons for that. We've actually had productive conversation about this topic in the purely abstract spiritual sense. But putting the gory details of it's manifestation into the conversation could (well, would) leave me kicking myself, but it could also result in the deepest and most meaningful understanding of each other and maximum soul cleansing. It's a high risk/high return thing. I'll most likely take your advice, though. But I wonder if that's not a sign of weakness.
I took my wife upstairs to the guest room and banged her the minute I got home today. What would Freud say?
Originally posted by sadic1
That is extremely comforting, so thanks. It's very true what you say about spiritual cognition, and that's something I've been aware of for a while. I worry that I'm just too far behind my wife in this respect, though, and find myself somewhat lonely not being able to tell her all the reasons for that. We've actually had productive conversation about this topic in the purely abstract spiritual sense. But putting the gory details of it's manifestation into the conversation could (well, would) leave me kicking myself, but it could also result in the deepest and most meaningful understanding of each other and maximum soul cleansing. It's a high risk/high return thing. I'll most likely take your advice, though. But I wonder if that's not a sign of weakness.
I took my wife upstairs to the guest room and banged her the minute I got home today. What would Freud say?
If you feel a great need to alter the path of your life, then strike off. What can one say it's your life to live, but really contemplating playing with barbies and discussing spirituality in the same paragraph. Whatever the case I'm sure your wife will make sure the kids are taken care of so that has to be a load off. And it is afterall up to you to find the game that you're supposed to play. So now that I've said next to nothing Good luck.
first off, let me commend your honesty.
there are not too many people who would stop to question the push behind their actions, much less talk about it.
have you considered talking to a counselor?
does it help to know that everyone else feels this way?
i think you are right to assume that your wife and you are operating on different "spiritual" planes right now, and that's probably totally normal.
me? i've always felt like a one-man movie, with everyone else just being characters and scenery. i live inside of my head.
now, i know that many people don't. they feel much more connected to the world. they feel stronger emotions than i do. and i envy that.
i kind of am waiting for that one horrible life-changing experience -- death of a child, of gina, me getting cancer -- that will elevate my "spirituality" because i do feel detatched at times from my loved ones. which bugs me. maybe i'm just overly selfish? i'm not sure.
alas, it may never happen.
i say, don't risk screwing up what's going on in your life. but do come out to the party and get trashed so we can watch you flirting around with all the wimmins. at least give me a wingman.
oh, i'm 33, too, but don't get nearly the quantity or quality of domestic action that you do. at the same time, i don't think about boning every half-way attractive person i see. i don't put myself in the position to. i made a deal with myself to commit myself to my marriage and my kids and my family -- even though i may feel like i'm not worthy of how great they are.
basically, fake it until you make it.
it's like starting out on a diet. you'll want to eat everything you can when you first start out and the hunger pangs are awful. but each cookie you pass up or each mcdonalds you drive past is another step in what you know in your mind (not your stomach) is the right path.
fake it until you make it.
after a week of good behavior, you know that you're a week into your new life. you have to be militant about it when you start and purposly avoid situations that you know can lead you astray. talk out loud to yourself and say, "sadic, you should not go sit in that car with that pussy. what would your wife and kids say if they were here?" commend yourself out loud for making the right decision, too: "sadic, you did the right thing by not cramming your hogleg into that soccer mom."
i used this tactic on myself when i thought i was beating off too much as a teenager. i always envisioned my dead great aunt or my grandmother there in the bathroom.
fake it until you make it.
Originally posted by LarryD
me? i've always felt like a one-man movie, with everyone else just being characters and scenery. i live inside of my head.
now, i know that many people don't. they feel much more connected to the world. they feel stronger emotions than i do. and i envy that.
i kind of am waiting for that one horrible life-changing experience -- death of a child, of gina, me getting cancer -- that will elevate my "spirituality" because i do feel detatched at times from my loved ones. which bugs me. maybe i'm just overly selfish? i'm not sure.
So I totally got chills reading this. I feel exactly the same way. I always thought it was some immaturity factor that I would grow out of but it hasnt happened. I am really happy to know that I am not alone in this.
PantherPaul
06-13-03, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by VOR
Well it goes away about 45 so enjoy. It also can complicate your life and leave you kicking yourself later. Anyway don't fret, you will find spiritual cognition comes about at the weirdest times. Just follow your heart, ignore the crotch and the head.
HOLY SHIT I AM 43! No way in hell I am going to stop fantisizing about women. Hell I can't remember the last woman I saw, talked to whatever I didn't at least for a second think about what they looked like naked, or how they would be in bed. Does this make me a bad husband, man? No. Acting on the impulses would do that. Give yourself a break, your human. Channel those feelings into your real life relationship and wait for the fireworks
SilverSurfer
06-13-03, 01:41 AM
I met a few girls at the Crawdads game tonight. :)
SilverSurfer
06-13-03, 01:42 AM
All in fun of course. :D
stop tempting sadic with your fast food ho-hos!
Originally posted by PantherPaul
HOLY SHIT I AM 43! No way in hell I am going to stop fantisizing about women. Hell I can't remember the last woman I saw, talked to whatever I didn't at least for a second think about what they looked like naked, or how they would be in bed. Does this make me a bad husband, man? No. Acting on the impulses would do that. Give yourself a break, your human. Channel those feelings into your real life relationship and wait for the fireworks
whos talking about fantisizing? I'm talking about walking down the corridor at work and a fetching thing pops out a door and says "ya wanna?"
That's a really interesting and helpful post, Larry. You were one of the people who I was hoping would notice and reply to this because I expected as much.
As long as I don't go over the edge, the behavior itself and managing it is less significant than the source of my tendencies. I believe I can and will pull back from the edge (and sometimes wonder if it's not the edge that I love), and don't have the balls or heart to hurt my family for the benefit of a little more self actualization. The thing I must get my mind around is why that tendency, that tiny little molecule, exists within me. I need to know if it's a natural part of me or if it's a germ, a virus that needs to be expelled forcibly. Do I embrace it to strip it of it's power, or do I deny it into nonexistence? The issues are about the nature of my spirit, not the ability to control my actions, though failure to control my actions would complicate the matter well beyond my ability to deal with it productively. In truth, I haven't been physically close to banging anyone other than my wife. I just know how easy it would be, and that raises the issue.
PantherPaul
06-13-03, 01:52 AM
Lifes full of temptations. Marriages are like diets. Doesn't mean you can't look at the menu
PantherPaul
06-13-03, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by SilverSurfer
I met a few girls at the Crawdads game tonight. :)
That one in orange looks like a be-iotch
sadic, i think that one of the neat things about the world is that we're all at different levels of growth and matuity.
in no particular order, there are:
* total fuckups that kill and steal from people.
* saintly people who only care about helping others.
* worker bees who are too dumb to question why they do the things they do.
* geniuses who are socially inept, but advance humankind.
* people who get into trouble, but show remorse because they are self-aware enough to know they shouldn't do the things they do.
* people who have a fundamental calling in life and are true to it until the end.
* people who are constantly searching for something.
we're all at different levels of maturity.
i guess i somehow believe in reincarnation and that, if we can master our tests that are given to us by life, we come back the next time at a higher level. like school. if you can write your name and say the alphabet, you go on to first grade. if you can write sentences, you go to the second grade. but all of those kids in all different grades go to the same school at the same time. they have to interact.
i've decided that i'm OK being a 7th grader, even though i wish i could be as cool as the 10th graders who get to go off campus for lunch. i know i'll get there some day, in some life. for now, though, i'm aware that i've got fallabilities and all i can do is make the best decision i'm capable of when presented with a problem or situation. i figure that if i do that enough times, i'll graduate to the next grade.
i don't think it's possible to skip grades, as much as i want it.
maybe you and your wife are in different grades. but then, wasn't it always cool to be dating the 11th grader when you were in 9th grade? just remember that she's going through the same life test and that she chose you, too. maybe that's part of her test.
hasbeen99
06-13-03, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by sadic1
The thing I must get my mind around is why that tendency, that tiny little molecule, exists within me. I need to know if it's a natural part of me or if it's a germ, a virus that needs to be expelled forcibly.
Speaking as one Christian to another with similar struggles, it's both, Sadic. It's a natural part of you, and it's a virus that needs to be expelled forcibly.
I wish I had time to post more, but the rest will have to wait until tomorrow (Friday).
Originally posted by LarryD
sadic, i think that one of the neat things about the world is that we're all at different levels of growth and matuity.
i guess i somehow believe in reincarnation and that, if we can master our tests that are given to us by life, we come back the next time at a higher level. like school. if you can write your name and say the alphabet, you go on to first grade. if you can write sentences, you go to the second grade. but all of those kids in all different grades go to the same school at the same time. they have to interact.
i've decided that i'm OK being a 7th grader, even though i wish i could be as cool as the 10th graders who get to go off campus for lunch. i know i'll get there some day, in some life. for now, though, i'm aware that i've got fallabilities and all i can do is make the best decision i'm capable of when presented with a problem or situation. i figure that if i do that enough times, i'll graduate to the next grade.
i don't think it's possible to skip grades, as much as i want it.
maybe you and your wife are in different grades. but then, wasn't it always cool to be dating the 11th grader when you were in 9th grade? just remember that she's going through the same life test and that she chose you, too. maybe that's part of her test.
This is a really great analogy, so I'll go with it. It's just that my wife thinks I'm in 11th grade (OK, 10th) when I'm really in 9th. I can honestly do enough of the 11th grade work to pull it off, but a 9th grader that can do most 11th grade work is still a 9th grader. I guess there's a part of me that fears she wouldn't want me if she knew I was really in 9th grade. But how can she love me completely if she can't know me completely? (Bear in mind, this is all in the metaphorical/spiritual sense; I'm not making a case for it being a good idea to tell her every fucked up thing I've ever thought).
Originally posted by hasbeen99
Speaking as one Christian to another with similar struggles, it's both, Sadic. It's a natural part of you, and it's a virus that needs to be expelled forcibly.
I wish I had time to post more, but the rest will have to wait until tomorrow (Friday).
I disagree that it can be both, but I'm willing to be swayed and look forward to your explanation.
Originally posted by sadic1
I guess there's a part of me that fears she wouldn't want me if she knew I was really in 9th grade. But how can she love me completely if she can't know me completely?
you need to just let that go. i did.
i felt awful moving back here to tallahassee. seriously went into some mild depression over it. i didn't feel that i was capable of being a good enough father, husband, brother, son, nephew or grandson because i had to come back home.
some days, i still don't know what the fuck i'm doing back here in tallahassee because i was perfectly happy up there in charlotte.
i think that, at our darkest moments, we all think we're a grade or two less than where we really are.
don't worry about what your wife thinks of you. i completely understand that you feel as if you are lying to her by not telling her you think you're fucked up. however, she chose you. she chooses you every day. she sees more in you than you see in yourself. you complete something in her the same way she completes something in you.
those feelings you have to bang random snatch probably won't go away until you start recognizing that they are pulling you away from where you really want to be in your heart. i think that you must be close to some sort of an epiphany because you are seeing the temptations all around you -- and they are strong. you are definately being tested.
grab your no. 2 pencil, look at your wife and kids, and think hard about which bubble you fill in.
chipshot
06-13-03, 02:43 AM
I was downtown all evening for the first time in several years and all I can say is that it is full of young trouble. I call shenanigans on Sadic though, that sounds like BS. :D
Originally posted by LarryD
you need to just let that go. i did.
i felt awful moving back here to tallahassee. seriously went into some mild depression over it. i didn't feel that i was capable of being a good enough father, husband, brother, son, nephew or grandson because i had to come back home.
some days, i still don't know what the fuck i'm doing back here in tallahassee because i was perfectly happy up there in charlotte.
i think that, at our darkest moments, we all think we're a grade or two less than where we really are.
don't worry about what your wife thinks of you. i completely understand that you feel as if you are lying to her by not telling her you think you're fucked up. however, she chose you. she chooses you every day. she sees more in you than you see in yourself. you complete something in her the same way she completes something in you.
those feelings you have to bang random snatch probably won't go away until you start recognizing that they are pulling you away from where you really want to be in your heart. i think that you must be close to some sort of an epiphany because you are seeing the temptations all around you -- and they are strong. you are definately being tested.
grab your no. 2 pencil, look at your wife and kids, and think hard about which bubble you fill in.
I agree completely. And she did choose me and has fully owned up in our conversations abstractly related to this to knowing of these immature elements of my spirit and pretending to share those traits. So, to me it's a not a blame/fear of being wrong kind of fear. It's not a fear that I'm wrong or not good enough, or not invested enough in my family, because I really feel that I am in almost all my actions that directly concern them. I feel very connected with them personally. It really boils down to a fundamental fear that if someone knew all of your thoughts, that they couldn't love you.
Because of the strange aura around what's been happening, it really seems to be some sort of test. I guess the obvious test is one of fidelity, and I'm OK with that. This was never a question of whether or not my family would stay together, but a question of how much honesty is too much, and how complete love can be through censored communication.
I have to say you guys are all awesome. This is the most personal thought I've ever posted, and nobody has been the least bit judgemental, so please accept my thanks and pat yourselves on the back.
"You need to just let that go." - LarryD
Said by others. Words of wisdom.
Originally posted by chipshot
I call shenanigans on Sadic though, that sounds like BS. :D
It's not like they blew me in the middle of the street. I just got the digits. The light didn't change 3 times, and only 1 car honked. Kristy had short blond hair, a flame tattoo aroound her forearm and a pierced lower lip and eyebrows. Kritin was heavy and black with a pierced lower lip. When I looked in the car, she pulled out a huge cock.
Originally posted by sadic1
but a question of how much honesty is too much
....and there is the dilemma. You have received some great feedback and WilliamJ, in his own way, had a masterful post.
The fact that you get tempted and have thoughts of having any kind of sex outside of marriage puts you in the 100% class of normalcy. It will become even stronger when you reach 39-45 age. But VOR is right...around 45, you start to accept that you no longer are young. The temptations do not present themselves nearly as often....and the desire somewhat wanes.
If I could instill one piece of advice it is this...your wife is not your priest. She does not want to know your hidden thoughts that may jeopardize your relationship. Women do not think like men when it comes to relationships and it is not our right to try to change it.
Stargazer
06-13-03, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by sadic1
So then, do I tell her everything I've done and thought over these many years in an effort to truly reform, and hope that she can deal with an atomic bomb going off in her little world? It's more honest, and probably more healthy in the long run, but it would seem insane to risk the destruction of such a great relationship when I could just suck it up and attempt to control my behavior, if not my thoughts. And the scariest thought for me: is there simply an insurmountable spiritual divide between my wife and I?
Be careful, Sadic. Don't use your wife's happiness as a stepping stone to your own spiritual development.
LarryD and Braves have said it far better than I could...
builder
06-13-03, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by sadic1
Actually, this was the first thread I ever started that I hoped nobody would read because it was too long and boring.
I skimmed it. You should take William's advice and also lay off the caffeine.
Originally posted by Braves
....and there is the dilemma. You have received some great feedback and WilliamJ, in his own way, had a masterful post.
The fact that you get tempted and have thoughts of having any kind of sex outside of marriage puts you in the 100% class of normalcy. It will become even stronger when you reach 39-45 age. But VOR is right...around 45, you start to accept that you no longer are young. The temptations do not present themselves nearly as often....and the desire somewhat wanes.
If I could instill one piece of advice it is this...your wife is not your priest. She does not want to know your hidden thoughts that may jeopardize your relationship. Women do not think like men when it comes to relationships and it is not our right to try to change it.
It really is reassuring to hear from people a few years older than I how normal this is and how it changes over time. And I believe all who have advised to simply stay the course and manage my actions have given me good advice. And while I've always had these thoughts, the angst that I'm feeling right now regarding them is very much a growing pain of some kind, much like how babies get really cranky for a couple of weeks before they hit a growth spurt. But while I look forward to things changing, I almost don't want to lose the moment, because it forces me to take a hard look at my motives and essense. I think one of the reasons this bugs me though, is that in many ways my wife and I ARE each others' priests. I feel our relationship to be somewhat unique in the level of intimacy we share regarding things other than this one particular dynamic. Exposure is a way of life for us in our relationship, and there's usually no such thing as letting sleeping dogs lie. Every time we've recognized and attacked a communication-inhibiting issue in the past, it's been extremely painful but ultimately productive and relationship-enhancing. Perhaps this issue simply represents the limits of the potential productivity of communication. But the fact that this dynamic stands in such stark contrast to other parts of our relationship makes me wonder how intimate we would be if we could dissect and push through this like we do everything else, rather than just leaving it a little black hole, a small area that cannot be loved. As I said before, we actually have discussed this in a diluted, nonspecific way. The thing is, I know we can only get to a certain level of communication without laying all of the specifics on the table, and I hate feeling like the gatekeeper in what should (but cannot) be a completely open discussion. So, while the ultimate answer is to stay the course, I guess this is just my way of thrashing about and making noise from the pain, and of processing the feelings, and reeling in the monster. As is often the case, the value of the process equals or exceeds the value of the product.
Puttingood
06-13-03, 10:25 AM
so, you getting a divorce too?
someone's having a mid life crisis.
two things about your post...
1. schlotzsky's deli is locatred on 7th st. come on by sometime.
2. williamj is a good wingman for the fat chick.
WilliamJ
06-13-03, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Bunky
2. williamj is a good wingman for the fat chick. where's the love?
sadic,
were you to tell your wife, what exactly would you say?
Originally posted by Puttingood
so, you getting a divorce too?
No way!!!
Originally posted by Boo
someone's having a mid life crisis.
Yes, way!!!
Originally posted by WilliamJ
where's the love?
I'd guess there would be a ton of it, literally.
meatpile
06-13-03, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by sadic1
Let me first say that I'm not posting this to whine, brag, or feel sorry for myself, nor even to ask for advice, though anyone who wants to is free to express their opinion. I don't expect this to be interesting to anyone but me, and it's extremely wordy (surprised?), but putting things on screen/paper sometimes helps me realize things I didn't before.
I've got some weird hormone/phermone thing going on lately, and it's really hilighting what I believe is a fundamental flaw in my personality. Lately, I've had a lot of opportunities to score strange pussy, and I'm not trying at all, but situations keep arising and decent and even hot girls are making themselves eerily available, and even though I'm generally decent looking and have a decent body, I know I'm not the hottest guy in the world, plus I'm short.
Today, I'm walking out of work, waiting to cross 7th street, and 2 girls in a car waiting to make a left yell out, "Nice pants!". The driver is hot, like skanky, stripper hot, complete with tats and piercings, and of course, she's got a heavy friend in the passenger seat. I didn't understand what they were saying and looked at them funny, so the driver says, "You want a ride?". No sooner are the words out of her mouth when some strange voice, apparently mine, says, "Hell, yeah!". I have no fucking clue where it came from, especially since my minivan is less than 50 feet away, and I really had no intention of taking a ride, but I walk over to the car, still waiting at the light, and start talking to the driver. I comment on her tats, tell her she looks good, and ask her where they're going, and we exchange names. She says they're going to Vinnie's and why don't I stop by later for drinks. I told her I would and took her cell phone number. The whole time she's just got her car in the middle of the street and the light has turned red and green 3 times, and people are honking. Right now I am sitting here typing this instead of riding to Vinnie's, contemplating if I should throw away the number to avoid the temptation to fuck a girl that would probably not even care that I'm married.
It really would have been just cool if I could accept it as a pleasant occurrance and compliment and let it go, but the sad fact is that I would love to fuck this and just about every other girl I think looks good. This and the other related situations in my life really have me wondering what the fuck is wrong with me that I can't refrain from thinking of such things, especially considering that I REALLY, REALLY enjoy my life in general and get TONS of sex. I have got to figure out and disarm this thing before I do something I can't undo, because so far, without getting into too much detail, I haven't fucked anyone, and I know I can't let that happen. However, the fact that I haven't actually fucked anyone really only makes it marginally better than if I had. I mean, I'm still wanting to, still essentially deceptive for not revealing my conflict. So, I feel I need to know why I am so fucked up if I'm ever to have a chance to fix it.
What's wrong with my life in general? Nothing, and I enjoy the hell out of almost every single thing I do.
What's wrong with my sex life? The only thing that ever bugs me about my sex life definitely plays into my desire to bang other people. That is, me and my wife really love each other, and we have mindblowing sex really often, plus she lets me get a little freaky with her with the anal and other deviant things and will blow me whenever I ask. HOWEVER, my wife is essentially not someone who wants to get freaky for her own pleasure. That is, sex to her is deep and spiritual. There is nothing she does sexually with me that isn't out of pure love. There's not a depraved, selfish bone in her body. She loves my entire being. She feels her orgasms all the way through her soul to the point where she cries sometimes from coming. This is, to me, the definition of spiritual sex, and it really is the best sex. The problem is this. If I had to choose one type of sex to have, this would be it, but I would like to be able to have that occasional hostile sex, where she doesn't give a fuck about anything but my dick and really doesn't even like me that much. I'd like to be used every once in a while. Many people know only that type of sex, and I pity them, because it really is less fulfilling, but I would like it from time to time. So now I wonder why me or anyone would want what really boils down to a loveless and selfish experience, plus I feel that my desire for such a thing means that I'm essentially less spiritually developed than my wife.
I have to assume that I'm having a hard time accepting that I'm worthy of such a complete love, and based on some of my depraved desires and potential to stray, aren't I actually less than worthy? And which caused which? But I think the idea that I want to have love expressed to me in a loveless fashion makes sense based on the fact that my father really had no idea how to express love in a positive way, so some part of me associates negativity with what I wrongly came to know as love. Another part of this thing that bugs me is that my wife has ABSOLUTELY no clue about the shit that goes through my mind. I try weakly to tell her that I'm not as good and sweet as she thinks I am, but she insists that I am and really appears to have a hugely inflated perception of my goodness as a person (I really do treat her well and am considerate of her feelings when we're together). It sounds great to be thought of as better than you are, but I feel like I'm passively lying every day, and I feel pressure to improve when I don't even know if that's possible, and she's enabling those feelings. Plus, I resent that she doesn't seem to know me well enough to see through me.
So, I know in a broad sense that part of this issue is that I have a negative self image and feel unworthy of love. The question in my mind is how best to handle my future. Do I try to improve myself quitely and without rocking the boat to meet the standard that she believes I already exceed? I really don't know if that can work, because part of my negative self image comes from a sense that I've been deceptive. So then, do I tell her everything I've done and thought over these many years in an effort to truly reform, and hope that she can deal with an atomic bomb going off in her little world? It's more honest, and probably more healthy in the long run, but it would seem insane to risk the destruction of such a great relationship when I could just suck it up and attempt to control my behavior, if not my thoughts. And the scariest thought for me: is there simply an insurmountable spiritual divide between my wife and I? I really believe that people grow at their own pace,spiritually and otherwise, and I know that I'll get to where I need to go, but I know based on past experience that I have little control over how fast I spiritually mature, but that it will happen. But what if the slow pace of my development and fast pace of hers leaves me dragging her down and her unwittingly making me feel inferior? That's scary shit to me. I love my wife and know that there is no way I could find anyone else with a comparable overall package of looks, abilities, common interests and enjoyable time together, communication ability, and capacity to love, but is it possible that I'd be better off with someone as flawed as myself? The crazy thing is that this is a huge conflict inside me, yet I can't at all say I'm unhappy. I really enjoy life every day. I guess I'd have to say that I'm not unhappy, but I am a little scared.
I only think of fucking some stranger like once or twice an hour.
Never did it though. I just jack off.
Originally posted by LarryD
sadic,
were you to tell your wife, what exactly would you say?
Well, I guess I'd show her my initial post and talk from there. Why waste the effort already expended on it? It ain't happening, though.
Originally posted by chipshot
I was downtown all evening for the first time in several years and all I can say is that it is full of young trouble. I call shenanigans on Sadic though, that sounds like BS. :D
yep...if they yelled anything it was something to the effect of "get out of the road fat ass!"
Originally posted by sadic1
Well, I guess I'd show her my initial post and talk from there. Why waste the effort already expended on it? It ain't happening, though.
well, after looking at it again this morning, it seemed as if the guys were all saying, "hey, it's normal."
then i thought, how can his wife get upset wtih him for being normal? maybe it'd be a relief to her. or maybe she'd get turned on knowing that other women found her man desirable.
then i wondered what the reactoin of the female posters would be if their husband said this to them. then i wondered how you would word "this" -- because it's all in the wording, i'd imagine.
so, what worries you more?
* telling your wife that you want to bone random women; or,
* telling your wife that you doubt you'll ever be as good a person as she is; or,
* telling your wife that she is more spiritually advanced than you and it's causing you to feel disconnected from her.
what would be the worst-case reaction?
i'm not advocating exposing your dark side, but you seemed to say that you guys have shared everything in the past -- good or bad -- and i'm wondering why this one "feels" different to you.
Originally posted by LarryD
well, after looking at it again this morning, it seemed as if the guys were all saying, "hey, it's normal."
then i thought, how can his wife get upset wtih him for being normal? maybe it'd be a relief to her. or maybe she'd get turned on knowing that other women found her man desirable.
then i wondered what the reactoin of the female posters would be if their husband said this to them. then i wondered how you would word "this" -- because it's all in the wording, i'd imagine.
so, what worries you more?
* telling your wife that you want to bone random women; or,
* telling your wife that you doubt you'll ever be as good a person as she is; or,
* telling your wife that she is more spiritually advanced than you and it's causing you to feel disconnected from her.
what would be the worst-case reaction?
i'm not advocating exposing your dark side, but you seemed to say that you guys have shared everything in the past -- good or bad -- and i'm wondering why this one "feels" different to you.
I've already told her the second and third bullets very directly. We've had some excellent conversation around it, and she's more OK with it than I sometimes am. But that's because it's not complete without the first part. I'd say that could get ugly.
meatpile
06-13-03, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by LarryD
sadic,
were you to tell your wife, what exactly would you say?
That's a piece of info she doesn't need to know. In my opinion, you're not helping her by telling her - kinda b/c you're the problem. No reason to drag her into it - you haven't done anything.
By telling her, you might only be trying to make yourself feel better - and you could inadvertantly really harm her.
Originally posted by meatpile
By telling her, you might only be trying to make yourself feel better - and you could inadvertantly really harm her.
Absolutely true. The internal debate I have is whether or not causing her that pain will be ultimately liberating for both of us and clear blockages in our relationship and communicatin that we didn't know were there, or if it's just a product of a selfish desire to be understood. The potential magnatude of that pain makes the decision for me. I just wonder if that makes meresponsible, or weak.
Stargazer
06-13-03, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by sadic1
Absolutely true. The internal debate I have is whether or not causing her that pain will be ultimately liberating for both of us and clear blockages in our relationship and communicatin that we didn't know were there, or if it's just a product of a selfish desire to be understood. The potential magnatude of that pain makes the decision for me. I just wonder if that makes meresponsible, or weak.
Responsible...no contest! The fact that you might ultimately liberate yourselves from something that you don't even know is there is a chance that only a selfish person would take.
WilliamJ
06-13-03, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by meatpile
That's a piece of info she doesn't need to know. In my opinion, you're not helping her by telling her - kinda b/c you're the problem. No reason to drag her into it - you haven't done anything.
By telling her, you might only be trying to make yourself feel better - and you could inadvertantly really harm her.
the other side of this is by not telling it creates dishonesty. Honesty not deception builds intimacy.
Originally posted by WilliamJ
the other side of this is by not telling it creates dishonesty. Honesty not deception builds intimacy.
Yes! The question is, does one assume that ever-increasing intimacy is a goal within the relationship, or do we seek the greatest degree of intimacy that we feel both parties can handle?
meatpile
06-13-03, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by WilliamJ
the other side of this is by not telling it creates dishonesty. Honesty not deception builds intimacy.
There's alot of honesty that doesn't need to be said. hypothetical examples:
'You don;t suck my dick as good as any of the other girls I dated'
'I've never liked the way you look in shorts'
'Your neck is kinda thick'
All of these might be true, but it would be pretty horrible to say them, and even though it would be honest, they wouldn;t enhance intimacy.
I think lusting after random sluts falls into the same category.
Originally posted by meatpile
There's alot of honesty that doesn't need to be said. hypothetical examples:
'You don;t suck my dick as good as any of the other girls I dated'
'I've never liked the way you look in shorts'
'Your neck is kinda thick'
All of these might be true, but it would be pretty horrible to say them, and even though it would be honest, they wouldn;t enhance intimacy.
I think lusting after random sluts falls into the same category.
ok, fuck, i'm crying. that's funny as hell.
This is starting to sound a little bit like the spouse that cheated, is it better to admit you cheated and hurt your spouse and possibily ruin your relationship and bust up the family? Or do you live with the guilt silently for the rest of your life? Is coming clean really better for the relationship or is it a selfish act to only relieve the cheater of their guilt?
Stargazer
06-13-03, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by meatpile
There's alot of honesty that doesn't need to be said. hypothetical examples:
'You don;t suck my dick as good as any of the other girls I dated'
'I've never liked the way you look in shorts'
'Your neck is kinda thick'
All of these might be true, but it would be pretty horrible to say them, and even though it would be honest, they wouldn;t enhance intimacy.
I think lusting after random sluts falls into the same category.
I think it's an amazingly insightful post.
Originally posted by Stargazer
I think it's an amazingly insightful post.
It really is.
Puttingood
06-13-03, 11:30 AM
Careful with that honesty meat.
Originally posted by Patti
This is starting to sound a little bit like the spouse that cheated, is it better to admit you cheated and hurt your spouse and possibily ruin your relationship and bust up the family? Or do you live with the guilt silently for the rest of your life? Is coming clean really better for the relationship or is it a selfish act to only relieve the cheater of their guilt?
It's exactly the same, with the exception that the act hasn't been committed. But it's like the act is just a formality as long as the source of the desire exists. The act is just a symptom of the condition, which is the same regardless. But not having committed the act makes it appear more possible to have truly productive conversation around the issue. Of course, "more possible" could mean thatthe odds are taken from .1% to 2% chance. Hence, the return to, "stay the course".
Puttingood
06-13-03, 11:35 AM
so, the real Fat Boy is on the way and you see a vision.
builder
06-13-03, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by sadic1
But not having committed the act makes it appear more possible to have truly productive conversation around the issue.
Unless your wife is open to swinging, you're fooling yourself.
meatpile
06-13-03, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by sadic1
It's exactly the same, with the exception that the act hasn't been committed. But it's like the act is just a formality as long as the source of the desire exists. The act is just a symptom of the condition, which is the same regardless.
I disagree completely. Ever feel like beating the shit out of someone? Or ramming some fucker with your car? Would acting out be just a 'symptom' of the core desire?
No way. Fuck some random slut and check yourself afterwards. You'll feel way different.
I think your lust is 100% normal. It might be painful, but it's still normal.
Originally posted by sadic1
...Of course, "more possible" could mean thatthe odds are taken from .1% to 2% chance. Hence, the return to, "stay the course".
This part would indicate that I'm not actually fooling myself. I just have intermittent thoughts about the possibility of fooling myself.
Originally posted by meatpile
I disagree completely. Ever feel like beating the shit out of someone? Or ramming some fucker with your car? Would acting out be just a 'symptom' of the core desire?
No way. Fuck some random slut and check yourself afterwards. You'll feel way different.
I think your lust is 100% normal. It might be painful, but it's still normal.
I appreciate, concur with, and am comforted by the wisdom of your perspective and advice. And you're right that acting it out would take things to a completely new level. However, the act IS just a symptom of the underlying condition, just like many symptoms may or may not ever arise, despite the presense of a disease. I can repress the symptoms, but I'd feel better if I could understand the source of the disease and cure it. Maybe it's not possible to cure it, by I do feel like I'm understanding where it comes from better recently, and that drives me to push further.
meatpile
06-13-03, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by sadic1
I appreciate, concur with, and am comforted by the wisdom of your perspective and advice. And you're right that acting it out would take things to a completely new level. However, the act IS just a symptom of the underlying condition, just like many symptoms may or may not ever arise, despite the presense of a disease. I can repress the symptoms, but I'd feel better if I could understand the source of the disease and cure it. Maybe it's not possible to cure it, by I do feel like I'm understanding where it comes from better recently, and that drives me to push further.
Isn't there a such thing as a 7 or 10 year itch? Hasn;t this been proven chemically or something?
Originally posted by sadic1
I can repress the symptoms, but I'd feel better if I could understand the source of the disease and cure it. Maybe it's not possible to cure it, by I do feel like I'm understanding where it comes from better recently, and that drives me to push further.
Good luck. Not trying to be snide, but if you really could figure out the why and clue everyone else in, you'd be rich. I'd think most people are just doomed to "deal with it".
This has been a very good thread. Meat's use of the term slut a while back was downright poetic.
Originally posted by meatpile
Isn't there a such thing as a 7 or 10 year itch? Hasn;t this been proven chemically or something?
Sure, but that's as general as saying it's a mid life crisis, which it is, but all that does is label a phenomenon that commonly occurs among people that share certain characteristics and are likely to have similar feelings as a result. There's still real reasons and sources for all of those feelings, and for me, externalizing feelings strips or reduces their power to overtake me and allows me a better look at them. That's the process I'm going through now.
muff_spelunker
06-13-03, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by sadic1
Kristy had short blond hair, a flame tattoo aroound her forearm and a pierced lower lip and eyebrows. Kritin was heavy and black with a pierced lower lip. When I looked in the car, she pulled out a huge cock.
I personally would've run like hell. They would probably give you something that doesn't wash off with soap and water. Have you called the "digits" Kristy gave you? Do you know if they are legit? I'll bet they aren't. I hope she's not that stupid.
You haven't mentioned this, so I'll ask. Did you ever think perhaps your wife may be having the same feelings you are having about wanting to get some strange? Being honest with her may open some exiting ventures for both of you. She may be miserable the way things are now. It may be festering inside of her as it is you, or she may already be doing something about it. You never know.
builder
06-13-03, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by muff_spelunker
Did you ever think perhaps your wife may be having the same feelings you are having about wanting to get some strange?
So are you saying that this could be a viable option for couples? How would you deal with the resulting jealousy that you know will crop up? Are there rules? If so, what are they and who decides how compromises will be made?
Originally posted by muff_spelunker
I personally would've run like hell. They would probably give you something that doesn't wash off with soap and water. Have you called the "digits" Kristy gave you? Do you know if they are legit? I'll bet they aren't. I hope she's not that stupid.
You haven't mentioned this, so I'll ask. Did you ever think perhaps your wife may be having the same feelings you are having about wanting to get some strange? Being honest with her may open some exiting ventures for both of you. She may be miserable the way things are now. It may be festering inside of her as it is you, or she may already be doing something about it. You never know.
I haven't tried the number, and probably won't. I'm going to bet it's real, mostly because there just wasn't much time and she came up with it pretty quick and without that look of "should I or shouldn't I?".
I am as close to 100% positive as someone can be that my wife has no desire for any strange. It's really not in her nature. To her, without spiritual connection, sex is a negative experience. I'd feel better if she was (a little) more like me, but this is the manifestation of the different spiritual levels that we currently exist on. While I know I'm OK like I am and am always growing, I firmly believe that her sexual perspective is a product of spiritual maturation, and not just "different strokes for different folks".
SilverSurfer
06-13-03, 12:14 PM
This is definitely a HOF thread.
Damn, just go beat off and deal with it. That's what I do. Most of the time anyway. That's the only advice I got.
Heavy shit, man.
Puttingood
06-13-03, 12:15 PM
So are you saying that this could be a viable option for couples? How would you deal with the resulting jealousy that you know will crop up? Are there rules? If so, what are they and who decides how compromises will be made?
Yeah, there are rules and jealousy so if any one is planning on trying it then they better be very secure with themselves.
Are you sure they weren't prostitutes?
damn, sadic's only going to live to be 66. :(
Originally posted by LarryD
damn, sadic's only going to live to be 66. :(
I had a psychic tell me 65. I'm cool with it. I'm gonna be ready to go by then.
Patti, I have no idea if they were prostitutes. I would have guessed that the driver was a dancer, and it's not exactly a huge leap to prostitute from there.
muff_spelunker
06-13-03, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by sadic1
I haven't tried the number, and probably won't. I'm going to bet it's real, mostly because there just wasn't much time and she came up with it pretty quick and without that look of "should I or shouldn't I?".
Quit being so naive. When don't want to give my number out, I either give an old number or combine mine and my parent's or something like that. It doesn't take much brain power to come up with a phone number. You obviously want to continue with the fantasy by believing the number is real, so good for you.
To her, without spiritual connection, sex is a negative experience.
This is probably true for 90% of women, but even those women have fantasies (maybe she fantasizes you are someone else when she is making love with you) and want a grudge fuck now and again.
Puttingood
06-13-03, 12:37 PM
Muff speaks the truth. But I don't think most men want to hear it.:D
muff_spelunker
06-13-03, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by meatpile
Isn't there a such thing as a 7 or 10 year itch?
I get a 2-3 year itch. At that point, I'm done with the relationship and ready for someone new. I like the thrill of the chase and the beginning of relationships.
builder
06-13-03, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by muff_spelunker
I like the thrill of the chase and the beginning of relationships.
Oh god....that's me in a nutshell. There's something about the rush of walking up to a stranger and seeing just how long it takes to get them in bed. Unfortunately, gay men are so easy that my desire to play this game has dwindled drastically in the past year. :(
Originally posted by muff_spelunker
Quit being so naive. When don't want to give my number out, I either give an old number or combine mine and my parent's or something like that. It doesn't take much brain power to come up with a phone number. You obviously want to continue with the fantasy by believing the number is real, so good for you.
It's immaterial if the number is real or not. It certainly may not be. I was just speculating. I'm gonna have to call now, just to see.
Originally posted by muff_spelunker
but even those women have fantasies (maybe she fantasizes you are someone else when she is making love with you) and want a grudge fuck now and again.
She has fantasies, but not about other men or spiritually disconnected sex. You can think me naiive for believing that, but I've probed it in every way imaginable, and that's just the way it is. I'd love to have company in this imperfection of mine with regard to this topic, but I wouldn't wish for her to regress to make me more secure. All that swinging and multiple parter stuff is really just more ways to take the intimacy and deepest beauty out of sex. I feel it's OK to acknowledge wanting or enjoying that, but feel it should be called what it is, which is a reflection of a spiritual shortcoming.
Puttingood
06-13-03, 01:14 PM
She has fantasies, but not about other men
Thats right. Wives don't fantasize about other men and if they did then they would tell their husbands if he asked.
builder
06-13-03, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Puttingood
She has fantasies, but not about other men
Thats right. Wives don't fantasize and if they did then they would tell their husbands if he asked.
I think it's healthly for couples to talk about their fantasies. Topher and I do all the time. And once in a while, we act on them while surprising the other. It's somethng that keeps it exciting and allows us to enjoy each other without bringing in a 3rd, 4th, or 10th person. However, we've done that too. I thought I would not be able to handle that and I tested myself....but sex for me has always been like a handshake...And that whole honesty thing is the most important part of being able to share yourself, and your partner with someone else without becoming jealous because he/she screamed louder and came harder than he/she ever has with you. One reason for that is because it was his/her fantasy to be with someone else while you watched.
You're in denial sadic. Your wife just isn't telling you everything.
Originally posted by Puttingood
Thats right. Wives don't fantasize and if they did then they would tell their husbands if he asked.
I'm tellin' ya it's true, but there's no way to prove it. She don't like the other mens. We've been married 10 and together 13 years, and we've talked about and done lots of sexual stuff. I would know. There would be a hint, a molecule, a look, an implication. It's just not there, and I'd like to see it, because it would make me feel a little less inferior with regard to the subject. I understand anyone who thinks I'm deluding myself, though. No sense arguing about it.
builder
06-13-03, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by sadic1
It's just not there, and I'd like to see it, because it would make me feel a little less inferior with regard to the subject. I understand anyone who thinks I'm deluding myself, though. No sense arguing about it.
There's the problem. Your wife knows that by not showing any outward desires for other men that she's got you in a position you prefer to not be in.
On the other hand...have you asked her about other women?
Originally posted by builder
I think it's healthly for couples to talk about their fantasies. Topher and I do all the time. And once in a while, we act on them while surprising the other. It's somethng that keeps it exciting and allows us to enjoy each other without bringing in a 3rd, 4th, or 10th person. However, we've done that too. I thought I would not be able to handle that and I tested myself....but sex for me has always been like a handshake...And that whole honesty thing is the most important part of being able to share yourself, and your partner with someone else without becoming jealous because he/she screamed louder and came harder than he/she ever has with you. One reason for that is because it was his/her fantasy to be with someone else while you watched.
You're in denial sadic. Your wife just isn't telling you everything.
We do talk about fantasies. Hers just don't include other men or loveless sex. I understand why you feel the way you do, but I feel your perspective on the subject is even more shallow and immature than my own. Let's face it. Anyone who wants to get pissed on has a major disconnection between love and sex. No offense, but it's true.
vpkozel
06-13-03, 01:25 PM
I'm still waiting to see if the number worked.
Originally posted by WilliamJ
where's the love?
pull back a couple folds and aim it.
builder
06-13-03, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by sadic1
Anyone who wants to get pissed on has a major disconnection between love and sex. No offense, but it's true.
There can be love without sex...and sex without love. Interlocking the two leads to a lot of heartbreak and denial.
Originally posted by muff_spelunker
This is probably true for 90% of women, but even those women have fantasies (maybe she fantasizes you are someone else when she is making love with you) and want a grudge fuck now and again.
I think that this is one big area where men and women differ in their fantasies because, and I have no proof of this, I think that when women fantasize they tend to focus more on themself than their fantasy partner. It's more about how she feels and what makes her feel good than about some other physical or made up person.
I think that it's highly possible that she doesn't have fantasies about other men. Let's face it this is one reason why porn magazines directed at women just don't realize the profits that ones directed at men do. Porn movies that target women have more story, and less cheesy music I hope, to them than do others
Originally posted by builder
There can be love without sex...and sex without love. Interlocking the two leads to a lot of heartbreak and denial.
Sex, in it's most perfect form, is an expression of love, and love is essentially the willingness to acknowledge one's own insignificance in the light God, the universe, or whatever big picture you believe in, if any, and to become nothing. To be free of needs and perception ofpersonal empowerment. Sex can exist without love and be pleasurable, but the capacity to enjoy sex without love moves in direct proportion to one's spiritual bankruptcy. And we're all spiritually bankrupt as humans when compared with God, just to different degrees. To interlock sex and love is very much to expose one's self to potential abuse. Heartbreak and denial are the result of someone being abused after taking the rather large step of opening up.
If you'll forgive me for speculating, your desire to be pissed on, as well as S&M and many other acts that may be considered "fetish", is reflective of having been made to associate love and abuse together. Someone evacuating themselves on you is one of the most direct metaphors for abuse possible. It is the definition of being told you are worthless, regardless of what physical reasons one has for enjoying such activity. I'd reason that one who desires such treatment has a diminished capacity to acknowledge and accept true love, which is kind and nurturing, and not at all what many of has have been taught to feel it as. And for me, the desire to have impersonal sex is similar, but not as far gone. I do accept true, spiritual love, but I can't yet live in that world 100% of the time because I feel or have been made to feel on some level that I don't deserve to.
Sadic - Have you thought much about religion here? Aren't you Catholic? (sorry if I am wrong here) I know Catholics are real big on confessing. Us Baptists are real good at repressing. Y'know - you can think it, but don't do it. So I don't get that urge to confess all that much.
You think maybe you are just expressing what you were taught - that confession is good for the soul?
chipshot
06-13-03, 02:21 PM
You need to work on your fundamentals.
Originally posted by kshead
Sadic - Have you thought much about religion here? Aren't you Catholic? (sorry if I am wrong here) I know Catholics are real big on confessing. Us Baptists are real good at repressing. Y'know - you can think it, but don't do it. So I don't get that urge to confess all that much.
You think maybe you are just expressing what you were taught - that confession is good for the soul?
That's an astute observation, and yes. I do feel confession is valuable, but more because of the pshycological connotations associated with taking personal responsibility for ones thoughts and deeds, of explicitly accepting ownership of one's flaws and qualities. Because I view actions only as symptoms, the fact that I can control my actions does not make me less spiritually bankrupt. It may make me look less spiritually bankrupt, but the release or reconciliation of the source of the desire for those actions is the only thing that can heal one's spirit, which is an infinitely loftier goal in my eyes.
muff_spelunker
06-13-03, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Meow
I think that this is one big area where men and women differ in their fantasies because, and I have no proof of this, I think that when women fantasize they tend to focus more on themself than their fantasy partner. It's more about how she feels and what makes her feel good than about some other physical or made up person.
Maybe it's because of my persuasion, but I visualize whatever woman I'm fantasizing about. What do women fantasize about if not someone else?
I think that it's highly possible that she doesn't have fantasies about other men. Let's face it this is one reason why porn magazines directed at women just don't realize the profits that ones directed at men do. Porn movies that target women have more story, and less cheesy music I hope, to them than do others
Porn for men is a big industry becuase they are visual. Women can come just thinking about it; no touching involved. I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think a man is able to do that.
builder
06-13-03, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by sadic1
I'd reason that one who desires such treatment has a diminished capacity to acknowledge and accept true love, which is kind and nurturing,
And you'd be wrong again.
I know true love. I'm as sure of that as you that your wife has no desire for anyone but you. The BDSM "fetishes" are an outlet that requires an inordinate amount of control and trust. You can't let just anyone tie you up or promise to be gentle as they push their hand inside you.
Safe, Sane, Consensual. - The three pillars of BDSM culture.
Originally posted by builder
You can't let just anyone tie you up or promise to be gentle as they push their hand inside you.
This is HOF quote material here.
vpkozel
06-13-03, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by kshead
This is HOF quote material here.
Is there a quote thread? If not - we need one.
There that quote thingy that is on the home page that you can add quotes to.
Originally posted by builder
And you'd be wrong again.
I know true love. I'm as sure of that as you that your wife has no desire for anyone but you. The BDSM "fetishes" are an outlet that requires an inordinate amount of control and trust. You can't let just anyone tie you up or promise to be gentle as they push their hand inside you.
Safe, Sane, Consensual. - The three pillars of BDSM culture.
Obviously, I disagree. "Trusting" someone not to physically harm you is a far cry from the kind of trust associated with the exposure of loving someone. Loving someone and being loved is like taking your life savings out of the bank and burning it on your front steps. That whole world of fetish and bondage was made up to coddle peoples' negative self images, to make them feel like it's OK to live within their personal dysfunction. But I'm sure for some people, it represents a transient stage of spiritual development, just as for others, it's a place to hide from the terrifying reality of true exposure and nonexistence. I believe you've felt true love, but that you've never expressed or accepted it fully, which is why you associate the intimate connection between sex and love with heartbreak and denial and settle for much less in some of your activities.
vpkozel
06-13-03, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Patti
There that quote thingy that is on the home page that you can add quotes to.
As unbelieveably descriptive as that was, I don't know what you are talking about patti. :D
builder
06-13-03, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by sadic1
Obviously, I disagree.
And I know that you can argue until your face is blue. Carry on.
Originally posted by vpkozel
As unbelieveably descriptive as that was, I don't know what you are talking about patti. :D
I just noticed you aren't on test mode. I think you have to be in test mode to see it.
Originally posted by builder
And I know that you can argue until your face is blue. Carry on.
You realize that your last post was the 113th in the thread, right?
builder
06-13-03, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by sadic1
You realize that your last post was the 113th in the thread, right?
I know when to quit.
Originally posted by vpkozel:
As unbelieveably descriptive as that was, I don't know what you are talking about patti.
yeah, you have to be in the test style.
hasbeen99
06-13-03, 03:23 PM
After re-reading this thread, and specifically your initial post this morning, I think I've come to the conclusion that there are four issues to deal with, and they're all connected. First, is your sex drive. Second is your spiritual growth. Third is the intimacy gap between you and your wife. Fourth is your pride.
Forgive me in advance for coming across as melodramatic in this post, but I have good reason for doing so. I have been on the road you're on. I have seen what can happen -- the widespread destruction of faith, family, and friends -- and I am telling you with everything I have within me, if you do not win this fight, you will lose everything.
Originally posted by sadic1
I've got some weird hormone/phermone thing going on lately, and it's really hilighting what I believe is a fundamental flaw in my personality. Lately, I've had a lot of opportunities to score strange pussy, and I'm not trying at all, but situations keep arising and decent and even hot girls are making themselves eerily available... It really would have been just cool if I could accept it as a pleasant occurrance and compliment and let it go, but the sad fact is that I would love to fuck this and just about every other girl I think looks good.
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. --1 Peter 5: 8
Lions do not pick out the strongest of the herd, nor do they attack head-on. They pick the weakest, and hit them where they are most vulnerable.
The enemy has found your weakness, Sadic, and has chosen this time in your life, amidst these circumstances to hit you hard where you're weakest. He knows he cannot have you, but he knows he can destroy your life. He has spotted the weak spot in your marriage coinciding with the hormonal surge in your body, combined with confusion and a little fear, and he's exploiting it for all it's worth. You are most definitely under attack -- and it's not just you, but your wife as well. And I think you already know that.
This and the other related situations in my life really have me wondering what the fuck is wrong with me that I can't refrain from thinking of such things... I have got to figure out and disarm this thing before I do something I can't undo... I feel I need to know why I am so fucked up if I'm ever to have a chance to fix it.
Here is where I see God's purpose in what is happening to you. He knows you're playing spiritual catchup to your wife, and he knows it's bothering you. I think He's allowing this to happen to you to 1) make you more dependent on Him, which will 2) grow you spiritually. As you probably know, the Bible promises that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear (1 Corinthians 10: 13), and at the same time will provide a way of escape. He has kept His word in my life. Every single time I've been tempted, I've been shown a way out. Every single time. The hard part is bending our will to follow God through the escape hatch when the whole rest of our being wants to stay and indulge. That's where spiritual growth can happen -- learning how to tap into God's strength, rather than depending on your own.
HOWEVER, my wife is essentially not someone who wants to get freaky for her own pleasure. That is, sex to her is deep and spiritual. There is nothing she does sexually with me that isn't out of pure love. There's not a depraved, selfish bone in her body.
I believe that spiritual sex as you have defined it between husband and wife is very much what God intended sex to be. But I also believe that sex was very much about experiencing all sorts of pleasure. It does not have to be deep, heavy, romantic, and spiritual all the time. Sometimes it can be just about mutual pleasure. Our biology asserts that truth, and the Bible backs it up. Ask your wife to read Song of Solomon, located between Ecclesiastes and Isaiah in the Old Testament. It's veiled in poetry, but basically it gives the green light to couples to enjoy just about anything that gives them sexual pleasure (within the boundaries of marriage). Your wife may have been taught growing up that anything other than straight missionary was bad or dirty, but also to serve and submit to her husband. She may need a little coaxing to experiment and explore her own body, but if you can show her in the Bible where it says it's okay, she may be more open to it.
I have to assume that I'm having a hard time accepting that I'm worthy of such a complete love, and based on some of my depraved desires and potential to stray, aren't I actually less than worthy?
I have gone through the same thought process many times in the 9 years I've been married to Leslie. She can just throw me a look of pure love, and I feel so unworthy I almost feel a sense of conviction. What I have learned to accept is that I am not worthy at all, and never will be. I have learned that she is looking at me with the unconditional love of God, and how can I ever be worthy of that? I can't. So I humbly accept it, and live my life in gratitude for it. Now I am free to fully appreciate it without the guilt. I think the same is happening with you, and I think you can have the same result if you choose to adopt that humble acceptance.
I think the idea that I want to have love expressed to me in a loveless fashion makes sense based on the fact that my father really had no idea how to express love in a positive way, so some part of me associates negativity with what I wrongly came to know as love.
Could very well be. Growing up, our parents are the first who are supposed to define what love is for us. I came from a twisted background myself, so I had a very difficult time accepting the kind of love Leslie offered me, and sometimes I still do. I got to a point in my life that I didn't believe it existed. I have learned since that it does, and that I am overwhelmingly fortunate to receive it. Looks like you are, too.
Another part of this thing that bugs me is that my wife has ABSOLUTELY no clue about the shit that goes through my mind. I try weakly to tell her that I'm not as good and sweet as she thinks I am, but she insists that I am and really appears to have a hugely inflated perception of my goodness as a person.
Yep. Been there, too. It's much like the tag line from the old radio show -- "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? ONLY THE SHADOW KNOWS!"
Part of how you see her looking at you is borne from ignorance, but part of it is a result of the love she feels for you. I think it's very similar to the way God loves us. When we are reconciled to Him, He sees past and through all the garbage in our lives and sees us as the pure children He made us. Your wife sees past the flaws she knows about, and sees your innermost being. That's what she's in love with. And yeah, that can be uncomfortable. But I'm convinced you probably do that to her, too. In every thread about your wife I've read here, you've described her as not just the perfect wife, but a dream that every straight man on this board would LOVE to have in his life, if he doesn't already. But if your wife saw herself the way you see her, she'd almost certainly say that wasn't the real her, and she'd immediately start pointing out flaws in herself. It goes both ways.
I do agree, however that there may be a problem with your perceptions. But corrections and adjustments can be made to make things right again.
I resent that she doesn't seem to know me well enough to see through me.
I think she does. What is the real you, Sadic? Are you the loving husband she sees, or the dispicable lustmonger you see yourself to be? The truth is that you are a mixture of the two. Do not discount one for the other. It is important for both of you to see the mixture -- the truth -- not just what you want to focus on.
hasbeen99
06-13-03, 03:24 PM
The question in my mind is how best to handle my future. ...And the scariest thought for me: is there simply an insurmountable spiritual divide between my wife and I? I really believe that people grow at their own pace,spiritually and otherwise, and I know that I'll get to where I need to go, but I know based on past experience that I have little control over how fast I spiritually mature, but that it will happen. But what if the slow pace of my development and fast pace of hers leaves me dragging her down and her unwittingly making me feel inferior? That's scary shit to me.
I think there are three things you need to do to solve your dilemma. Because I've been where you are, I can tell you this works. It's proven itself worthy in my own life.
1) Fix the intimacy with your wife. The trick here is to be vulnerable and trust her with the truth, but not to paint such a shockingly ugly picture of yourself that she can't handle it. My recommendation would be to sit her down and tell her that you've been subject to a LOT of temptation lately, and it's really bothering you. Ask her to pray for you, that you can remain pure for her. And re-affirm for her your devotion to her, and only her. Tell her that you are committed to being pure, for her and for God. She doesn't need to know the details about or picture the women who are tempting you. The details will only hurt and scare her. Asking for her prayers to help you remain devoted only to her should motivate her in the right way, and the step of trust will deepen your intimacy level.
2) Get some accountability built into your life. I don't know if the Catholic church has embraced the small group idea like contemporary Protestants have, but if they have, that's a great place to start. If not, ask some guys you're familiar with and trust to hold you accountable, to pray with you and for you, and to help you with this battle. There are more of us out there than you may realize.
3) Get closer to God. I know that Catholics have a different way of connecting with God than Protestants do, but spend more time in prayer and meditation. Basically, work God and His influence into more of your life. In my own experience (and the experience of others) the closer you feel to God, the less likely you are to be tempted. Perhaps asking your priest for some guidelines in this area would prove useful. It would be a start, anyway.
As a long-term veteran of this war, I can affirm that it is as much spiritual as physical, if not moreso, and the victory is found on the spiritual side, not the physical side. The reason is simply because the physical side does not want to win. The spirit must recruit the will, and overcome the flesh. With God's help, it can.
vpkozel
06-13-03, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by LarryD
yeah, you have to be in the test style.
That is just plain discrimination against us defaultees with stuff. Imma call Jesse Jackson. :mad:
Originally posted by vpkozel
That is just plain discrimination against us defaultees with stuff. Imma call Jesse Jackson.
sign me up, too. i'm a defaultee with stuffer.
vpkozel
06-13-03, 03:34 PM
Hasbeens. You are a truly good guy, and I am very glad that we have your perspective and spirituality to lean on here if we need it. :xyzthumbs
same here, hasbeens.
interesting that your general perception of the situation and advice given in part 1 was the same as mine.
hasbeen99
06-13-03, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by vpkozel
Hasbeens. You are a truly good guy, and I am very glad that we have your perspective and spirituality to lean on here if we need it. :xyzthumbs
Thanks, VP. I'm just trying to live what I learn, and pass on what has been given to me. :)
Originally posted by LarryD
same here, hasbeens.
interesting that your general perception of the situation and advice given in part 1 was the same as mine.
Thanks, Larry. And yes, I did notice that you shared some of the same points and advice I did. So did WilliamJ, and Meatpile, too (I think). Good posts. :xyzthumbs
Hasbeens, I was really looking forward to your post, and you did not disappoint. There's so much in there that I can't possibly comment on all of it, but in a nutshell, I agree with you. However, much of what you have written is about controlling myself physically and how to effectively do so. It's all good advice, but not really the deepest source of my conflict. I'm not worried so much that I will be unable to control my actions. I'm bothered by the existence of the dynamic. I realize that it's critical to control my actions, but feel that this is not an aggressive enough goal. Also, I want to clarify that I feel that the sex I do have with my wife is perfect for what it is - expression of love. That doesn't mean that it's tame or vanilla or always missionary or any of that, or that she doesn't have and express lustful passion. It's often just the opposite. She has tremendous physical needs and appreciates me physically. In other words, I don't believe she's inhibited in any way. She enjoys certain deviant activities quite a bit and even things she doesn't particularly enjoy, she is willing to do as long as they don't compromise her ability to express love. The ONLY place she can't meet me is in a loveless, impersonal style of sex. She can't use sex to express hostility or selfishness or any other negative emotion the way I can and occasionally would like to. As such, I have no desire to change her sexually. I believe she is near where me and everyone else should want to get to, and for her to cater to any of my sexual desires that are borne out of true negativity would hurt both of us.
Your assessment of this being my weakness and it being under attack is right on the money, as is your assessment of God's purpose in doing so. I have the faith to avoid the physical pitfalls, but I don't necessarily have the faith to think that controlling myself physically will in and of itself change me for the better spiritually. I believe that a physical breakdown in self control would set me back light years spiritually, but not that physical control will advance me spiritually. But I really don't know, and it's a moot point as long as I continue to control myself and improve my ability to do so by trying to live a fiathful life with regard to God and my wife. I have to believe my heart will change if and when it is supposed to.
As for your numbered steps of advice, I have and am continuing to do exactly what you say in number 1. I haven't specifically emphasized the literal temptations, but I have addressed the dynamic and expressed how and why it bothers me and causes me fear. I feel we're OK on this front. My only issue with this, as I expressed earlier in the thread, is that I can't help but think that the more information we can share about this dynamic, the more and faster we can grow from it, but it's difficult to decide how much is too much to share. Number 2 is honestly a bit touchy feely for me, but if I ever feel the need to resort to such a thing, I hope I wouldn't hesitate to use a support group. Number 3, to get closer to God, is something I have been working on actively and will continue to do so for the duration of my life.
The advice from you and others to simply accept love humbly with the knowledge that I don't always truly deserve it is really the key point to me. My wife really did know what she was getting when she married me, and I can't beat myself up for being who I am, so long as I do the right thing. In truth, she wouldn't love me the way she does if I wasn't flawed in the ways that I am. Obviously, that doesn't give me license to feed or ignore my flaws, but it should allow me to accept love in spite of them.
Anyway, thanks. This has been a great exploration for me.
voyergirl
06-13-03, 05:29 PM
i've got to get back to read this one. i am out of here right now for a graduation tonight. i promise i'll be back to read through this one.
sadic, i do like you. and i might be wrong, but you already know the answer to many of your questions. i've got to read through this whole thread(your initial post actually:( sorry, i scanned only) to understand what exactly is going on.
william, i read a bit past you first post in this thread. your head and heart are good.
hasbeen99
06-13-03, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by sadic1
However, much of what you have written is about controlling myself physically and how to effectively do so. It's all good advice, but not really the deepest source of my conflict. I'm not worried so much that I will be unable to control my actions. I'm bothered by the existence of the dynamic. I realize that it's critical to control my actions, but feel that this is not an aggressive enough goal.
I posted so much about controlling the physical because that's where I feel most of the practical application can be found. But I agree wholeheartedly that physical desire is not the big picture.
If I understand your definition of "the dynamic" correctly, I would tell you that its existence should bother you. It should be setting off alarms in your mind and in your heart, because it's a threat to what you hold most dear. I believe it can be diminished, even drastically, by using the methods I have outlined, but as far as eliminating it altogether? I don't know if that's possible. In the seventh chapter of Paul's letter to the church of Rome, he described the inner conflict that we all have as being tied to "this body of death". I don't know if it's possible to completely remove this particular vulnerability from our flesh. If you figure it out, let me know. I'll be most interested to hear the solution. Otherwise, the fight for purity goes on. And purity is the larger goal that you speak of. It's not just actions, else we are no better than the pharisees of old. Purity is from the inside out. That's our ultimate goal, and that's what we aggressively strive for.
...I don't believe she's inhibited in any way. ...The ONLY place she can't meet me is in a loveless, impersonal style of sex. She can't use sex to express hostility or selfishness or any other negative emotion the way I can and occasionally would like to. As such, I have no desire to change her sexually. I believe she is near where me and everyone else should want to get to, and for her to cater to any of my sexual desires that are borne out of true negativity would hurt both of us.
I believe you're right -- enticing her to compromise the high sexual standard she's clinging to would hurt both of you. But that does not change the fact that you still have those desires. The question I think needs to be asked is, "Is this kind of sex what God wants?" God is about exclusively intimate connection, and intense pleasure in the bedroom (figuratively speaking). He's not a prude by any stretch, as outlined in the Song of Solomon. IMO, what He's NOT into are negativity, hurt, pain, or even apathy. God sets boundaries for us for very practical reasons. He takes away those things that will cause us pain, which allows us to freely enjoy the rest. In short, I think the specific desires you have for loveless, impersonal sex probably fall short of God's ideal. And if that is true, the best thing you can do spiritually is continue to acknowledge they're there, resist them in an extreme fashion (i.e. don't get the digits; don't even walk up to the car -- walk away), and pray continually that God will remove that particular thorn. But keep in mind, He may choose not to. Despite repeated pleas, He did not remove Paul's. He left it there to keep him humble and keep him dependent on his heavenly Father. Know that God may choose the same fate for you. I think He has for me, and it kills me. But I also know it works.
...I don't necessarily have the faith to think that controlling myself physically will in and of itself change me for the better spiritually. I believe that a physical breakdown in self control would set me back light years spiritually, but not that physical control will advance me spiritually.
I agree completely, and I apologize if I led you to believe I was saying otherwise. Physical control is a means to an end -- a tool to work toward purity, not purity itself. Physical purity will facilitate spiritual growth, not cause it. But you're absolutely right that failure to be physically pure will most definitely sabotage your spirit, and cause damage to your heart and mind that leave long term scars -- not only on you, but on people you love.
I have to believe my heart will change if and when it is supposed to.
Agreed. We cannot completely dictate how fast we mature spiritually. We can do our part, but growth is a team effort between us and God, and there are circumstances and timing that must be brought into consideration which are out of our control. But to keep it simple, our job is simply to continue to submit to Him and pursue Him. He will continually reveal Himself in His time, not ours.
As for your numbered steps of advice, I have and am continuing to do exactly what you say in number 1. I haven't specifically emphasized the literal temptations, but I have addressed the dynamic and expressed how and why it bothers me and causes me fear. I feel we're OK on this front.
Excellent!
My only issue with this, as I expressed earlier in the thread, is that I can't help but think that the more information we can share about this dynamic, the more and faster we can grow from it, but it's difficult to decide how much is too much to share.
I understand your point that any holding back at all can compromise the ideal intimacy level, and it is not without merit. But I still believe that because of the destructive nature of sexual temptation, specifically how violently it attacks spousal trust, it would be better to forego telling her all the details for the time being, and let her focus on praying for and helping you. In the future, if you want to tell her that some woman came onto you today, I think that would be okay, but be sure to tell her in the context of you still being caught up in this temptation battle. Context in discussions like those can mean everything, especially to women. Their propensity to intertwine emotion into reasoning demands proper context.
Number 2 is honestly a bit touchy feely for me, but if I ever feel the need to resort to such a thing, I hope I wouldn't hesitate to use a support group.
I'm not talking about a circle of guys in folding chairs that say, "Hi, I'm Eric and I'm a sex addict." I'm talking about 1, maybe 2 guys you can confide in. Guys you are, or can be, in regular contact with who you trust enough to give permission to ask the tough questions. That's what I mean by accountability. And BTW, it doesn't have to be in person. It can be over the phone or over the internet.
Number 3, to get closer to God, is something I have been working on actively and will continue to do so for the duration of my life.
Excellent. That pursuit will serve you well, and eventually will bear the fruit you're looking for, and much, much more.
The advice from you and others to simply accept love humbly with the knowledge that I don't always truly deserve it is really the key point to me. My wife really did know what she was getting when she married me, and I can't beat myself up for being who I am, so long as I do the right thing. In truth, she wouldn't love me the way she does if I wasn't flawed in the ways that I am. Obviously, that doesn't give me license to feed or ignore my flaws, but it should allow me to accept love in spite of them.
Precisely. And that is such a parallel for how God loves us. It is the picture of unconditional love and grace that some of us are lucky enough to have living examples of every day.
Sadic, I won't add my 2 cents because I would only be reiterating what hasbeen, Larry, William and meatpile have said.
I just want to give you a huge big thumbs up for opening yourself up in this thread. I imagine that you were hesitant about it, not knowing what kind of response you might get from people. However, you went ahead and opened up.
This can sort of take the place of a counseling session. You can open up here and know we won't judge you. As has been said repeatedly, many men on this board have been through the same experience you have. These can truly help.
I want to encourage you for whatever lays ahead. I have a feeling that, despite all the distractions that may be sent your way, your ultimate desire is to grow in your love and relationship with your wife and God.
I believe God wants this as well - so trust in him. Keep talking to him and to your wife. I believe that lots of good will come out of this!
Carry on. :)
I really think you're just over-analyzing this...practically every man wants to fuck every semi-hot girl he sees. If you're strong enough to not act on the urges, then you have no problem. There is no point in delving deep into your mind to find some kind of dysfunction, it's in all of us. It sounds like you have an incredible wife, and you would truly be a fool to do anything to jeapordize your relationship with her, including blabbing about wanting to fuck every girl you see. As someone else said, that's like saying "yes" when she asks if these pants make her look fat.
i'll add this comforting thought, sadic:
adultery is a sin. as such, it's been around for thousands of years. so, it is not abnormal to have those thoughts. millions (if not billions) of men have.
Thanks to all of you. Writing and writing specifically in this forum are each tools I have come to depend on to better understand myself and solicit the thoughts of others, and you all have really exceeded my greatest hopes for what could have come from this thread.
There are many different perspectives present here, but I find 2 very basic ideas, and both are useful and important to me. To paraphrase:
1. You're a guy. That's how we are. You don't have to deny who you are, but manage your actions, and everything will be cool.
2. Regardless of what you do or don't do, this is a faith issue, and you must manage your actions and address how this plays into God's plan for you.
These are both true, and there will be times when I rely on each of them to make me feel better, manage my situation, and manage my spirit. I sort of admire those who have only the perspective of number 1. It's much simpler. You are what you do, and for those who feel this way exclusively, it's true. However, I've always been of the mind that we are what we think and feel, and what we do is the result of those things. And over the last number of years, I've come to believe that what I think and feel and my connection to God are intimately related, and that comes with a shitload of baggage that doesn't allow me to ignore my feelings about anything. There is no meaningless thought and certainly no conflict within my thoughts that exists but for God's specific plan for me. But I know I can't live thinking that way all day, every day. As hasbeens noted, this is a specific time that I'm designed to pick this thing apart, look at everything, and ask for help to be of right mind and body. I have to believe that there's an excellent reason for that right now, but I also know that soon I'll be OK with just being a fucking guy and not beating myself up about it.
Originally posted by sadic1
but I also know that soon I'll be OK with just being a fucking guy and not beating myself up about it.
see..your journey is almost over
Guys don't like to admit this colloquial truism perpetrated by the womenhood, but it is true...." Guys are dogs "...and the quicker you accept this realization, the easier it is.
builder
06-13-03, 10:48 PM
Jebus Christhe....when did God come into this thing? :confused:
hasbeen99
06-14-03, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by builder
Jebus Christhe....when did God come into this thing? :confused:
Genesis, I think. :wink2:
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