Religion

[Miss tery]

Baffles me. I really do not comprehend it. Moral life and living by the golden rule often seem to conflict with it's precepts.

[FreakOnA_Leash]

depends on what your rule is I guess.

[Miss tery]

depends on what your rule is I guess.
Cute, but I meant the 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.

[FreakOnA_Leash]

sorry that wasn't the first thing that came to mind when the golden rule. I was thinking more along the lines of something else.

[magnus]

Cute, but I meant the 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.


which you'd suggest should only apply to theists, since you seem to not like being picked on for your own religious beliefs but tend to do so to others?

[Marielle]

Me too, but that's because I have a FAITH, not a religion. Religion is a concept created by man while my faith is given to me by God.

When I believe in the great sacrifice that God made for humanity, the golden rule is a no-brainer. I'm not treating others well, for MY sake, I'm treating others well in respect to God's creation and in gratitude for what He did in my life.

[WilliamJ]

Baffles me. I really do not comprehend it. Moral life and living by the golden rule often seem to conflict with it's precepts.
only in your godless world.

[spud]

Me too, but that's because I have a FAITH, not a religion. Religion is a concept created by man while my faith is given to me by God.

When I believe in the great sacrifice that God made for humanity, the golden rule is a no-brainer. I'm not treating others well, for MY sake, I'm treating others well in respect to God's creation and in gratitude for what He did in my life.


OHHHH That was really good!
And you said so much in few words. Respect for God's creation. We have such a lack of that in todays society don't we?

[VOR]

It's ok tery I still love you.

[spud]

Baffles me. I really do not comprehend it. Moral life and living by the golden rule often seem to conflict with it's precepts.

It baffles me that your constantly fighting against something you don't believe in. I mean the whole "Jesus, God" thing.
If I don't believe in something I don't think about it much. Like UFO's for instance. I certainly don't go around speaking against them. I think your battling with yourself about your true beliefs.

[Miss tery]

It baffles me that your constantly fighting against something you don't believe in.
My form of evangelism. Spreading the word of reason over blind faith.

[vpkozel]

You should spend more time trying to reconcile the Big Bang Theory with gravity, as currently the 2 are mutually exclusive.

[spud]

My form of evangelism. Spreading the word of reason over blind faith.


Oh, then that wouldn't include me. My faith is a long way from blind.
Your in good company. Many people who have gone down that road, and studied the Christan religion have become zelous converts.

[kshead]

You should spend more time trying to reconcile the Big Bang Theory with gravity, as currently the 2 are mutually exclusive.

If you could only use this info to get donations from the flock for preaching about it.....

[Village Idiot]

Baffles me. I really do not comprehend it. Moral life and living by the golden rule often seem to conflict with it's precepts.As much as you post on it you should be an expert by now....or maybe you're just obsessed.

[vpkozel]

If you could only use this info to get donations from the flock for preaching about it.....

That would be an interesting comparison. I wonder what the differences are between the amount of money spent on relegion and the amount spent on science every year.

[Miss tery]

Oh, then that wouldn't include me. My faith is a long way from blind.
Your in good company. Many people who have gone down that road, and studied the Christan religion have become zelous converts.
That does not concern me much as those whose diatribes are coherent usually spell words such as "you're" and "zealous" correctly.

[spud]

That does not concern me much as those whose diatribes are coherent usually spell words such as "you're" and "zealous" correctly.


Well at least you have something new to pick on.
EXCUSE me, I'm not perfect. But I'm going to heaven!

[Miss tery]

My goal is to be accepted to a reputable medical school as an experimental cadaver.

[VOR]

My goal is to be accepted to a reputable medical school as an experimental cadaver.
Well you better die of something special or you just may end up in some technicians garage.

[Miss tery]

Doesn't really matter. When you're dead, you're dead......just like that Possum in the middle of the road or that worm you put on your hook to entice that Bluegill.

[magnus]

which you'd suggest should only apply to theists, since you seem to not like being picked on for your own religious beliefs but tend to do so to others?
So even though you ridicule and try to poke holes in others' beliefs, you don't seem to like your own beliefs being ridiculed. I'll state that once again since I'm sure you wouldn't be the type to shirk a reasonable question.

[Miss tery]

So even though you ridicule and try to poke holes in others' beliefs, you don't seem to like your own beliefs being ridiculed. I'll state that once again since I'm sure you wouldn't be the type to shirk a reasonable question.
I do not understand your point. Please restate it. And I do not have any "beliefs".

[Village Idiot]

So even though you ridicule and try to poke holes in others' beliefs, you don't seem to like your own beliefs being ridiculed. I'll state that once again since I'm sure you wouldn't be the type to shirk a reasonable question.Obsessions have no reasoning behind them....just urges.

[sds70]

Hmmmmm, do we need to start a FAITH & VALUES column :confused: ? ? ? Did anybody ready the feature article in today's local fishwrap? You had a lot of young adults who are now professing no religion at all (i.e. they don't identify themselves with the main religions). Over time, why do you think some folks have just been turned off with organized religion :confused: ?


More Young Adults becoming Non-Religious . . Don't Be Lazy and just register with Charlotte.com to read the article :rolleyes: :rolleyes: !!!!!! (http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/living/7674610.htm)

[WilliamJ]

My form of evangelism. Spreading the word of reason over blind faith.
i have yet to see any faith in God that was blind. Everyone of faith I know has had some form of a spiritual experience.

[magnus]

I do not understand your point. Please restate it. And I do not have any "beliefs".
Yes you do. You believe there's no God.
You also don't seem to respect those that do.
You push the actions of those who profess faith, upon that faith.
But you certainly don't like people coming after what you "feel", "think", or "conclude" about religion, and have noted it so.

So where does the 'golden rule' work for you? When convenient?

[VOR]

Over time, why do you think some folks have just been turned off with organized religion :confused: ?


Probably they figure if they gang together in big enough numbers they can get something else on sunday morning tv besides Plaza sesmo and people in cheap suits and bad hair cuts.

[Miss tery]

with the main religions). Over time, why do you think some folks have just been turned off with organized religion[/url]

They are just getting smarter. They realize all that organized religion stuff is on par with the easter bunny and santa claus.

[Miss tery]

So where does the 'golden rule' work for you? When convenient?
It is an everyday part of my life in interaction with people in the "real" world. That is where I see the rudeness and back-stabbing of the professed "christians" in my work environment and elsewhere. The very few of my acquaintences that admit to atheism or agnosticism are the most gentle and polite people I know.

[Village Idiot]

You had a lot of young adults who are now professing no religion at allNot surprising at all.
After seeing what some churches and its leadership have done with their charge to spread the "word" its no wonder that anyone would become disenchanted with so called organized religion. It does'nt take a rocket scientist to see that many church leaders and members are frauds. They claim to follow the word but their actions outside the church prove otherwise. That is why I always challenge anybody that has questions about God to read the Bible for themselves and make their decisions about God based on his word alone.

Playing "church" wont get you into Heaven.

[magnus]

It is an everyday part of my life in interaction with people in the "real" world. That is where I see the rudeness and back-stabbing of the professed "christians" in my work environment and elsewhere. The very few of my acquaintences that admit to atheism or agnosticism are the most gentle and polite people I know.

So despite your self-suggested intelligence, you're grouping people who do this as having Christian traits, even exclusively Christian? These people aren't that way despite the tenets of their religion? It certainly sounds as if you're putting a face on something that certainly isn't gray area.
Your own logic is that since the average Christian is different than the average agnostic/atheist, being that your friends are the latter, that the average Christian is totally unrefined, barbaric, rude, and so on, knowing that that's horribly discriminative and illogical. And that's without going into the deep-seeded disgust you have for religion skewing your view that much further.

Nonetheless, picking out a tiny snippet of what I'm saying and taking it in another direction doesn't answer my question. You don't like your feelings questioned, and you certianly have an attitude suggesting that you're not only right, you're righteous. That what you're saying is superior to those dumb theists.
So isn't what you're basically saying there, totally in conflict with this same golden rule you're noting? What you're doing, is what you're complaining of in the same post. Correct?

[Miss tery]

You are correct, I am painting with a broad brush that perhaps is a bit antagonistic. But I in no way retract the generalization that those who profess a belief in a higher power are meaner to their fellow human beings than those who do not.

[magnus]

So you trust your friends and those that agree with you, over a more general pool of the rest of the world, that you disagree with? I'm shocked.
Now, if you want, address your treatment of religion v/s how you'd like your own feelings to be respected.
Personally, I don't hold ill will toward you not feeling how I do. It's the treatment of those people and apparenetly feeling begrudged against them that I dislike.

[Miss tery]

We are not even talking about the same subject.

[magnus]

SO the golden rule doesn't apply to your criticism of people within religion? That seems to be related, just dodged.

http://www.cds4kids.com/drvin/dodge.jpg

[Miss tery]

Sure it does.

[builder]

The very few of my acquaintences that admit to atheism or agnosticism are the most gentle and polite people I know.

While I am very Christian like on TBR, in real life, I quite nice, calm, and helpful whenever anyone needs anything. It's my worst trait.

[magnus]

Sure it does.

I assumed you'd continue to avoid the question, yes.
Or you could attempt to be real about it, and just not political.
Hell, don't even have to say it. You're quite contradictory in this thread alone.

[Miss tery]

While I am very Christian like on TBR, in real life, I quite nice, calm, and helpful whenever anyone needs anything. It's my worst trait.
Dang.....I'll always remember this.....you ARE my hero!

[SilverSurfer]

Baffles me. I really do not comprehend it. Moral life and living by the golden rule often seem to conflict with it's precepts.

You know, I used to kind of agree with you, but wait until A life threatening event or illness hits you and you might change your perceptions a bit... Introspection and relying on yourself or others wears you out and can only carry you so far.

You need some sort of spiritual faith, IMO, no matter what it is.You're gonna die one day, and I want to know I'll be there with a higher power when I go to live out eternity. This is not the only chance you get, I don't think.
The golden rule can apply whether you are religious, or not.
By the way, all I read of this thread was the first post, so I apologize if I repeated someone else's opinion.

[Braves]

wait until A life threatening event or illness hits you and you might change your perceptions a bit... Introspection and relying on yourself or others wears you out and can only carry you so far.

The one commonality I have with Miss tery is her belief about religion, my relationship with God is a spiritual one and in many cases it takes events like Silver described above for many people to understand that.

[El Bastardo]

Tery, I got your back. The "golden rule" does not have it's basis in religion, rather it's a merely a heapin' dose of common sense.

There is no dog....

[WilliamJ]

But I in no way retract the generalization that those who profess a belief in a higher power are meaner to their fellow human beings than those who do not.
YOU CANNOT PROVE THIS.

[Miss tery]

YOU CANNOT PROVE THIS.
You are correct. It is merely an observation on my part in my day-to-day interactions with people.

[articulatekitten]

Damn, all kinds of shit happens when I'm gone for a little while . . . .

I can see Miss T's point about so many professed christians behaving in ways that are the opposite of what they profess to believe in. I've seen a lot of that in my life, too, & not just in christians--in other religions as well. We just see more hypocrisy in christianity, I think, because we live in a predominantly "christian" culture. It's hard not to become disenchanted with religion in general after you've dealt with some hard-core hypocrites.

Still, I believe in something beyond what can be measured by science. I am pagan--which is really undefinable these days. I believe in the sanctity of life and nature. I believe there are energies that we don't yet understand & can't measure. I believe that emotions and thoughts can have effects beyond what we realize. And I don't find it necessary to understand & quantify things in order to live by what I believe.

I also have the luxury, in my belief system, of being perfectly free to adjust my beliefs to take into account any new discoveries.

An interesting (to me) side note: among the people who trash a bookstore the worst---Christians, New Age devotees (ah, they shame me!), teachers, bad parents, and rednecks into car/cycle/truck magazines.

[vpkozel]

You are correct. It is merely an observation on my part in my day-to-day interactions with people.

Kind of like the way that you continue to believe in the spontaneous creation of the universe when it is totally at odds with one of our most apparent theories....

[sds70]

You know, I used to kind of agree with you, but wait until A life threatening event or illness hits you and you might change your perceptions a bit... Introspection and relying on yourself or others wears you out and can only carry you so far.

You need some sort of spiritual faith, IMO, no matter what it is.You're gonna die one day, and I want to know I'll be there with a higher power when I go to live out eternity. This is not the only chance you get, I don't think.
The golden rule can apply whether you are religious, or not.
By the way, all I read of this thread was the first post, so I apologize if I repeated someone else's opinion.


BINGO Silver :) . . . . Folks want to know that they know that if they were to die, they would go to Heaven. I think the problem is with so many denominations, you get conflicting information. Some say you need to be 'born again' (evangelical, baptist) while others say doing good works is sufficent (Roman Catholic). For example, many folks practice Mormonism B-U-T, some preachers/folks say that Mormonism isn't the way/true religion. But I'm sure some of us know some folks who are devout Mormon who seem to have everything together (they appear to have a strong walk with God, things are going pretty well in their lives, etc.) and we say how many folks convert to Mormonism on a daily basis. Their denomination seems to have everything in order (and I'm sure this makes a few other ones jealous). Do the folks/denominations who say Mormonism isn't the way have a legitamate gripe O-R is it just a case of being selfish that their denomination is flourishing while there's isn't :confused: ?

[Reznor]

Still, I believe in something beyond what can be measured by science. I am pagan--which is really undefinable these days. I believe in the sanctity of life and nature. I believe there are energies that we don't yet understand & can't measure. I believe that emotions and thoughts can have effects beyond what we realize. And I don't find it necessary to understand & quantify things in order to live by what I believe.

You been talking to Yoda again? You just described The Force. :D

[WilliamJ]

You are correct. It is merely an observation on my part in my day-to-day interactions with people.
this proves your ignorance and inability to make a point. blanket assumptions are a bad thing. if you knew anything about religion and faith you might have a better understanding of people and the world in which you live.

odds are the believers in god out number the non-believers (agnostics not included), therefore by sheer number volume of course you initial point is provable. the irony is, morals are based in a faith and religion. i just made your point for you. however; this only works out if in fact the believers have a super majority.

[Miss tery]

If you were born and raised in Iran this sort of discussion would be illegal. But their point of view is the same about a higher power. Your religion has no more validity than theirs, or AK's paganism.

[WilliamJ]

did i attempt to validate my clain of faith. no i am trying to put your assinine premise to rest. but it is impossible as you cannot and will not respect those of faith's beliefs.

[Miss tery]

Why does it upset you so much when I state that people who do not believe in a higher power are nicer than those who do? Oh, and FYI their IQ's are generally higher as well.

[vpkozel]

Why does it upset you so much when I state that people who do not believe in a higher power are nicer than those who do? Oh, and FYI their IQ's are generally higher as well.

Proof, please. Preesh.

[SilverSurfer]

Proof, please. Preesh.

Yeah. I'd like to know where it's been proven that atheists or agnostics are "nicer" to people than people that have some sort of religious belief. Also, where do you get the "IQ's are higher" thing??? I'd like to see some documentation on that.

[vpkozel]

Yeah. I'd like to know where it's been proven that atheists or agnostics are "nicer" to people than people that have some sort of religious belief. Also, where do you get the "IQ's are higher" thing??? I'd like to see some documentation on that.

I would also like MT to answer my question about which theory she feels is invalid - Big Bang or gravity - as it has been proven that they cannot co-exist as currently understood.

It should be easy for her to do, cause non religious people are real smart and stuff.

[VOR]

You can't talk to her, she's never had one of those incidences where you should by all means be dead but somehow it all blow right by you and though shaken you're sit essentially un scathed.

[Miss tery]

I would also like MT to answer my question about which theory she feels is invalid - Big Bang or gravity - as it has been proven that they cannot co-exist as currently understood.
Umm...I got a "C" in Physics....try The Stephen Hawkings website. (http://www.hawking.org.uk/home/hindex.html)

[vpkozel]

Umm...I got a "C" in Physics....try The Stephen Hawkings website. (http://www.hawking.org.uk/home/hindex.html)

Where is the part where he answers the little conundrum about the expansion of the universe not slowing down as one would expect because of gravity?

Kind of important question to answer, don't ya think?

[VOR]

I would also like MT to answer my question about which theory she feels is invalid - Big Bang or gravity - as it has been proven that they cannot co-exist as currently understood.

It should be easy for her to do, cause non religious people are real smart and stuff.

Oh don't get her started she gets all juicy when the though of the big bang comes up.

[barry49s]

You need some sort of spiritual faith, IMO, no matter what it is.You're gonna die one day, and I want to know I'll be there with a higher power when I go to live out eternity. This is not the only chance you get, I don't think.


If we do indeed "get another chance" as you put it, I'm pretty sure how much money we give to the church or how many times we pray to a higher power has nothing to do with "getting another chance." Treat the earth, animals and fellow man with respect and I'm pretty sure you will be fine. ;) :)

[magnus]

Why does it upset you so much when I state that people who do not believe in a higher power are nicer than those who do? Oh, and FYI their IQ's are generally higher as well.
Because you're saying you prefer people you're friends with, and share a major common interest with, over people who you certainly would dislike anyway due to your bias. But you call it logical.

And anyway, you still haven't bothered noting how the golden rule doesn't apply to your own religious thoughts and beliefs, or rather how you don't apply it.

[Miss tery]

I apply it in my everyday life. I do not apply it here because I see my primary objective to be a source of annoyance and a voice of discord. In real life I would not ridicule anyone for their beliefs, but I would be lying. Here I can say what I truly believe.

[slydevl]

Blind faith? That is rich.

Miss Tery, you could not begin to afford the education that I have, both religous and secular. I have been taught to think logically at one of the top 3 higher education facilities in the US. I have literally spent years studying theology and I believe in Jesus Christ. Hardly blind faith.

You have given absolutely no reason for anyone to respect your opinion over anyone elses. Your repeated attacks on religion leave you incredibly transparent. Which leaves me with one question. What has the church done to you personally to cause you to hate it so? I think you need to answer that question for yourself before you can truly participate in any educated debate about religion.

[Miss tery]

Any discussion of religion carries no more weight than whether one is a Carolina or Duke fan. To take it more seriously than that is embarassing. But then I guess sports fanatics get pretty caught up with their teams as well.

[slydevl]

Any discussion of religion carries no more weight than whether one is a Carolina or Duke fan. To take it more seriously than that is embarassing. But then I guess sports fanatics get pretty caught up with their teams as well.

You have to have a basic understanding of religion to be able to have an educated discussion about it. I have studied Judeo/Christian through the religions of the Far East. I am confident I can have an educated discussion about religion. What are your qualifications?

[Miss tery]

One can be an educated fool. Debate theology with a Muslim cleric. I do not debate theology, just the existence of a higher power.

[magnus]

I apply it in my everyday life. I do not apply it here because I see my primary objective to be a source of annoyance and a voice of discord. In real life I would not ridicule anyone for their beliefs, but I would be lying. Here I can say what I truly believe.

So ...you're not being true to your own rules? Certainly, you don't like your own beliefs being ridiculed, but you can certainly dish that out.

Generally, intelligence and logic go hand in hand with scientific understanding.

In other words, being condescending and dismissing doesn't make one intelligent. You can't say it's so and make it be so.

[slydevl]

One can be an educated fool. Debate theology with a Muslim cleric. I do not debate theology, just the existence of a higher power.

Apparently the only fool in this thread is the uneducated one.

[Miss tery]

Hehe.....I feel just like I'm in the hoops forum. Athiests are a tiny minority in this neck of the woods. Very few of that minority actually speak their minds. I do, and will continue to do so. Get over it.

[slydevl]

Hehe.....I feel just like I'm in the hoops forum. Athiests are a tiny minority in this neck of the woods. Very few of that minority actually speak their minds. I do, and will continue to do so. Get over it.

I'm trying to respect your opinion Miss Tery, I really am. But I find it impossible without knowing whence it comes.

[magnus]

Hehe.....I feel just like I'm in the hoops forum. Athiests are a tiny minority in this neck of the woods. Very few of that minority actually speak their minds. I do, and will continue to do so. Get over it.

I've said before.
*I don't mind that you feel how you do.
*I don't even mind if you want to argue about it.
But here's the kicker. You don't want to face up to the fact that you're criticizing people for the golden rule, or that they don't always adhere to their religion's tenets, and yet you specifically set out to blast others for this knowing you're doing it.

It's also a shame that, though you continue to want to talk religion, you obviously don't face up to an actual discussion about it. You just want to piss people off.

So you can either choose one or the other, but trying to show moral high ground while digging deeper in the mud isn't smart. And though you suggest mental intelligence, you've done nothing to back that either.
Figures to think that if you're so intent on basing something on nothing, you'd be more sympathetic to others that do; but all I ask is you hold yourself to your own rules.

[vpkozel]

One can be an educated fool. Debate theology with a Muslim cleric. I do not debate theology, just the existence of a higher power.

Yet you refuse to explore the limitations of your theories and beliefs. You expect people just to accept your version of the way things are, even though some of your major base beliefs are at odds with each other.

That make you a hypocrite.

[York1]

http://www.anyfuckingthing.com/uploaded/popemicreadyrock-Pinion_TS.jpg

[magnus]

Yet you refuse to explore the limitations of your theories and beliefs. You expect people just to accept your version of the way things are, even though some of your major base beliefs are at odds with each other.

That make you a hypocrite.

Well, it's a simple matter of controversial being more high profile than logical or reasoned. Not to say she doesn't have logic or reason, but as you note there's no actual backing put to it. It's more to make them mad than anything, obviously.

[Miss tery]

I like the basketball analogy. Everybody has a favorite team. Some are christians, some are muslims, some are buddists, some are pagans, etc....
None of them are correct, merely a matter of opinion and faith. It stems from the environment you were raised (read indoctrinated) in.

[Marielle]

I like the basketball analogy. Everybody has a favorite team. Some are christians, some are muslims, some are buddists, some are pagans, etc....
None of them are correct, merely a matter of opinion and faith. It stems from the environment you were raised (read indoctrinated) in.

Yes, but there's always a championship and ultimately only ONE winner. ;)

Honestly, the people who study science and nature in its purest forms are the first to tell you that all proof leads to a creator - an author.

Even Charles Darwin later rescinded his theories having studied it in depth.

[WilliamJ]

I like the basketball analogy. Everybody has a favorite team. Some are christians, some are muslims, some are buddists, some are pagans, etc....
None of them are correct, merely a matter of opinion and faith. It stems from the environment you were raised (read indoctrinated) in.
that's it, talk shit about our upbringing. way to epitomize that goodness.

[VOR]

I like the basketball analogy. Everybody has a favorite team. Some are christians, some are muslims, some are buddists, some are pagans, etc....
None of them are correct, merely a matter of opinion and faith. It stems from the environment you were raised (read indoctrinated) in.

So we call you slam dunk right?

[Miss tery]

all proof leads to a creator - an author.

I guess dukey does have a point with his alien.

[builder]

Yes, but there's always a championship and ultimately only ONE winner. ;)



So when you get to hell and find out that the mormans were right, whatchugonna do?

[Reznor]

So when you get to hell and find out that the mormans were right, whatchugonna do?

burn like the rest of us. :D

[TimTam]

Baffles me. I really do not comprehend it. Moral life and living by the golden rule often seem to conflict with it's precepts.

Wow I had no idea you felt this way...Guess what Fred is caught in a BS love triangle, York is drunk, Putt thinks we all suck, kshead has a gambling habit, Bunky thinks we should eat more sammiches, builder is gay, and Larry is good at photography. What more no shit stuff must you say?

[magnus]

I like the basketball analogy. Everybody has a favorite team. Some are christians, some are muslims, some are buddists, some are pagans, etc....
None of them are correct, merely a matter of opinion and faith. It stems from the environment you were raised (read indoctrinated) in.

And some, despite a facade of "intelligence", really have nothing better to do than try to make someone else unhappy for being unhappy themselves. Do unto others as you fear they'll do unto you.

[Reznor]

And some, despite a facade of "intelligence", really have nothing better to do than try to make someone else unhappy for being unhappy themselves. Do unto others as you fear they'll do unto you.

Not saying that this applies to anyone here, but unfortunately that is often the case in our society.

[articulatekitten]

You been talking to Yoda again? You just described The Force. :D


I'm all about The Force :D

[Turbo]

I like the basketball analogy. Everybody has a favorite team. Some are christians, some are muslims, some are buddists, some are pagans, etc....
None of them are correct, merely a matter of opinion and faith. It stems from the environment you were raised (read indoctrinated) in.

I'm actually disappointed you posted this, Miss tery. This is totally against what you've been saying all these years on TBR.

You've basically said that all religious beliefs have equal weight. They are just different.

Yet, you believe that your religious beliefs (i.e. that there is no God, no "higher power", no life beyond the grave and that humanity should only look to itself for it's strength to improve) are "better" than any Christian's beliefs.

Aren't your contradicting yourself? Seems to me that you are.

I remember my first post in response to you about 4 years ago. In that post I stated that every single belief in God is based on faith. It takes faith to believe that he is there (since it cannot be proven beyond any shadow of doubt) and it also takes faith that he does not exist (since THAT cannot be proven beyond any shadow of doubt).

You, of course, flew off the handle since you didn't like YOUR religious beliefs charactarized as needing faith.

The reality is that everyone needs faith for whatever religious belief they may have. Their beliefs may differ, but they still need faith since their beliefs cannot be scientifically proven beyond any shadow of a doubt.

[spud]

It is an everyday part of my life in interaction with people in the "real" world. That is where I see the rudeness and back-stabbing of the professed "christians" in my work environment and elsewhere. The very few of my acquaintences that admit to atheism or agnosticism are the most gentle and polite people I know.


You crack me up with your talk about gentleness etc and how much smarter people are who don't believe in a God, yet you quickly pointed out my grammer and spelling errors earlier and were quite rude about them, only because you know I profess to be a Christian.

[builder]

Your as fake as you can be.

That should be "You're" not "your".

[WilliamJ]

That should be "You're" not "your".
shhhh.....let him rant.

[spud]

You crack me up with your talk about gentleness etc and how much smarter people are who don't believe in a God, yet you quickly pointed out my grammer and spelling errors earlier and were quite rude about them, only because you know I profess to be a Christian. Your as fake as you can be.


Yeah, but it was 6am when I wrote, it and YOU'RE right! I also have a problem with tonight. I often write tonite, and I KNOW its wrong.

[Marielle]

So when you get to hell and find out that the mormans were right, whatchugonna do?

Not at all, like I said previously I have a faith in God, not man or religion. I don't pigeonhole my faith nor do I have the cockiness to try to pigeonhole God into a mold.

So if I believe in God and there suddenly was nothing after death, what have I lost? Nothing. However, if I didn't believe in God and there IS something after death - I've lost it all.

Just trying to show Mystery that while her analogy seemed like a feasible idea, it has its flaws.

[magnus]

Yeah, but it was 6am when I wrote, it and YOU'RE right! I also have a problem with tonight. I often write tonite, and I KNOW its wrong.
Well, shit happens and so do mistakes. But what gets me is when people intentionally cutesy or dumb down their words, like "tuff".

[slydevl]

Well, shit happens and so do mistakes. But what gets me is when people intentionally cutesy or dumb down their words, like "tuff".

It is the nature of the message board beast. People try to get their message across as quickly as spoken word and end up making mistakes. Things like "tuff" and even misuse of "your" are excusable in my book. Repeated misspellings of the same word like "defence" for example are not.

[vpkozel]

Well, shit happens and so do mistakes. But what gets me is when people intentionally cutesy or dumb down their words, like "tuff".

I know. That is just stoopid.

[builder]

So if I believe in God and there suddenly was nothing after death, what have I lost? Nothing. However, if I didn't believe in God and there IS something after death - I've lost it all.



A life lived in fear is a life half lived.

[slydevl]

A life lived in fear is a life half lived.

Yeah, I feel sorry for you guys for this. There is nothing more liberating than knowing you are saved.

[Ice Man]

So when you get to hell and find out that the mormans were right, whatchugonna do?

Actually Mormanism is a cult. They are not Christians. If you really get into reading what they believe, it is some crazy stuff.


Big Bang Theory: I would like to know how do you create something out of nothing? Seems to me it takes more faith to believe in the big bang than to believe in God.

It amazes me that of all the people who believe in a higher power in this world (billions) we are appartently wrong yet the few athiests are correct. I do know that my Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ and I fell sorry for those that don't know Him.

[sadic1]

If you were born and raised in Iran this sort of discussion would be illegal. But their point of view is the same about a higher power. Your religion has no more validity than theirs, or AK's paganism.

Actually, that's not true. My stepmother was born and raised in Iran and her mother lives in Tehran, and her neighbor there is openly Catholic. In Iran, Christians aren't persecuted and people can talk about religion. Even when things were more strict, this was the case. The Muslims there accept Christianity because all Muhammad said was that he was the LAST prophet. They don't like new religions, like Bahai, because their "prophesies" came after Muhammad, but I don't think they'll kill ya over it.

Anyway, this is always a good topic. All who are arguing with Miss Tery should bear in mind that she is not attempting to engage in a theological discussion, so there's nothing you can say about religion or theology that's relevant to the discussion, and you certainly can't prove the validity of your Christian beliefs by espousing what you've "learned" by studying Christian theology (slydevl). The existence of God has nothing to do with theology. Theology can only exist if one believes in some form of God first.

While I believe in God while allowing for the possibility that He may manifest Himself in extremely abstract forms, I have to say that I agree with Miss Tery that people who profess to be atheists or agnostics are on average a little kinder and less judgemental than those who profess to be Christians. I also believe that it has nothing to do with anyone's belief system. It's a matter of social dynamics.

Most would agree that there is little inherent in Christian doctrine that encourages people to be hurtful and judgemental (though some denominations do basically look for "loopholes" that allow them to condemn or control others), but the fact is that Christians in this country are in the majority (especially in the South), while atheists and agnostics are a very small minority. As such, Christians tend to think that because they're in the majority, they're on the "winning team". Whenever you have a large group of people who think they're on the winning team, the ones in the group who just do and believe things because they want to be with the majority or were born into it are going to become more involved in the fact that their team is winning than the actual belief system, which leads to the potential to be judgemental and all the other bad stuff Miss Tery has run into. The bottom line is that the larger a body of people is with a common belief system, the larger the number of phonies who don't understand why they're there is going to be because idiots are attracted to the safety of large groups. Atheists and agnostics know very well that they're in the minority. So, right, wrong, or indifferent, they have to be committed to their beliefs (or lack of beliefs) just to maintain them in the face of the adversary they're going to encounter from the Christian majority. Also, since there are so few of them, each one feels a little more pressure to be a positive of their group so that people don't think that to be Godless is to be negative. You could run into 100 Christians in a day, and maybe 10 of them are jackholes, but you may only run into 1 atheist in a day, and if that person is a jackhole it's going to have a much greater affect on one's view of their group. You've encountered 10 idiot Christians and 1 idiot atheist, but since you don't meet many atheists, you're going to remember them more. It's kind of like how a minority family moving into a white neighborhood feels some small sense of pressure to represent their ethnicity well so as to disarm negative stereotypes.

In the end, I tend to think that Miss Tery's CONVICTION that there is no God is just as moronic as Spuds' CONVICTION that he's going to Heaven. If you need proof or evidence to have faith, then you don't have faith at all, you've got some form of deductive reasoning. To me, faith and certainty are two different things, and in my experience, people who say things with as much certainty as Miss Tery and Spuds have are really just reacting to the natural human fear of potential nonexistence. Spuds is saying, "I'm so scared to die that I can't function without a guarantee that there's something after," and Miss Tery is saying, "I'm so tired of stressing about the possibility that there's some judgemental God out there, that I'm throwing the whole thing out of my mind. If there is a God, and it's not good enough for him that I'm nice to people, I don't like him anyway."

Nobody likes "maybe"...

[Boo]

blind faith = that monk that set his ass on fire a couple of week ago.

[magnus]

Actually, that's not true. My stepmother was born and raised in Iran and her mother lives in Tehran, and her neighbor there is openly Catholic. In Iran, Christians aren't persecuted and people can talk about religion. Even when things were more strict, this was the case. The Muslims there accept Christianity because all Muhammad said was that he was the LAST prophet. They don't like new religions, like Bahai, because their "prophesies" came after Muhammad, but I don't think they'll kill ya over it.

Anyway, this is always a good topic. All who are arguing with Miss Tery should bear in mind that she is not attempting to engage in a theological discussion, so there's nothing you can say about religion or theology that's relevant to the discussion, and you certainly can't prove the validity of your Christian beliefs by espousing what you've "learned" by studying Christian theology (slydevl). The existence of God has nothing to do with theology. Theology can only exist if one believes in some form of God first.

While I believe in God while allowing for the possibility that He may manifest Himself in extremely abstract forms, I have to say that I agree with Miss Tery that people who profess to be atheists or agnostics are on average a little kinder and less judgemental than those who profess to be Christians. I also believe that it has nothing to do with anyone's belief system. It's a matter of social dynamics.

Most would agree that there is little inherent in Christian doctrine that encourages people to be hurtful and judgemental (though some denominations do basically look for "loopholes" that allow them to condemn or control others), but the fact is that Christians in this country are in the majority (especially in the South), while atheists and agnostics are a very small minority. As such, Christians tend to think that because they're in the majority, they're on the "winning team". Whenever you have a large group of people who think they're on the winning team, the ones in the group who just do and believe things because they want to be with the majority or were born into it are going to become more involved in the fact that their team is winning than the actual belief system, which leads to the potential to be judgemental and all the other bad stuff Miss Tery has run into. The bottom line is that the larger a body of people is with a common belief system, the larger the number of phonies who don't understand why they're there is going to be because idiots are attracted to the safety of large groups. Atheists and agnostics know very well that they're in the minority. So, right, wrong, or indifferent, they have to be committed to their beliefs (or lack of beliefs) just to maintain them in the face of the adversary they're going to encounter from the Christian majority. Also, since there are so few of them, each one feels a little more pressure to be a positive of their group so that people don't think that to be Godless is to be negative. You could run into 100 Christians in a day, and maybe 10 of them are jackholes, but you may only run into 1 atheist in a day, and if that person is a jackhole it's going to have a much greater affect on one's view of their group. You've encountered 10 idiot Christians and 1 idiot atheist, but since you don't meet many atheists, you're going to remember them more. It's kind of like how a minority family moving into a white neighborhood feels some small sense of pressure to represent their ethnicity well so as to disarm negative stereotypes.

In the end, I tend to think that Miss Tery's CONVICTION that there is no God is just as moronic as Spuds' CONVICTION that he's going to Heaven. If you need proof or evidence to have faith, then you don't have faith at all, you've got some form of deductive reasoning. To me, faith and certainty are two different things, and in my experience, people who say things with as much certainty as Miss Tery and Spuds have are really just reacting to the natural human fear of potential nonexistence. Spuds is saying, "I'm so scared to die that I can't function without a guarantee that there's something after," and Miss Tery is saying, "I'm so tired of stressing about the possibility that there's some judgemental God out there, that I'm throwing the whole thing out of my mind. If there is a God, and it's not good enough for him that I'm nice to people, I don't like him anyway."

Nobody likes "maybe"...

Well said.
And I really wanted to annoy myself by, for no reason at all, quoting this entire passage, since people do that and it looks silly.

[sadic1]

I believe the relevant part of the conversation is the social dynamic I described in the last part of my post. If one thinks in terms of raw numbers, it's hard to argue against Miss Tery's point. Because you meet a lot more people who are Christians than not, the majority of the idiots you meet are going to be Christians. This, combined with the idea that anyone who has taken the time to evaluate things enough to be an atheist or agnostic know that they are going to be more closely watched or judged for their beliefs (or lack of) constitutes some support for the dynamic she describes. I just don't blame the religion itself for what amounts to a common social dynamic.

[kshead]

As such, Christians tend to think that because they're in the majority, they're on the "winning team"

Can someone hook me with some odds here? Football season is winding down and I'm looking to move to another venue.

[vpkozel]

Because you meet a lot more people who are Christians than not, the majority of the idiots you meet are going to be Christians. This, combined with the idea that anyone who has taken the time to evaluate things enough to be an atheist or agnostic know that they are going to be more closely watched or judged for their beliefs (or lack of) constitutes some support for the dynamic she describes. I just don't blame the religion itself for what amounts to a common social dynamic.

But she was not speaking in terms of total numbers (e.g., there are more white people in prison than black people), she was speaking in terms of averages and in general, which implies that your typical atheist is smarter, more polite, etc. than your typical Christian.

Which is bullshit.

[magnus]

I believe the relevant part of the conversation is the social dynamic I described in the last part of my post. If one thinks in terms of raw numbers, it's hard to argue against Miss Tery's point.

I just don't blame the religion itself for what amounts to a common social dynamic.
Those were two things I got out of it, and certainly wanted to say when she was dodging earlier.
Of course, to her, it seems, atheists are more likely her friends, so she's taking her friends over the average idiot. Just like any other generalization, it has little to do with the generalization - yankees are rude, southerners are inbred rednecks, jews are dyslexic idiots.
It's perspective, or lack thereof, and I guess ignorance, like the Iran comment.
Basically, yes. People who are more self-aware and able to judge themselves without bias from the outside, can be kinder and more conscientious. But certainly, being able to act superior comes regardless of race, and just like I know my share of Baptists who act the part, I know a lot of Atheists that act taht part and _tery's certainly one as well. It's a character flaw, not a tenet.

[vpkozel]

Can someone hook me with some odds here? Football season is winding down and I'm looking to move to another venue.

Would you really want to bet agaist God?

[kshead]

Would you really want to bet agaist God?

Who said I was betting against? Some atheist might give me good numbers on the money line.

[magnus]

Who said I was betting against? Some atheist might give me good numbers on the money line.
I dunno about that. The money does, after all, say "God" on it. :beatup2:

[Marielle]

A life lived in fear is a life half lived.

Not fear at all which is what makes living this life no loss. Living with my belief in God provides a completeness to my life, gives me a deeper purpose and a strength that I was not able to achieve alone. Some may see it as weak but I just call myself blessed. Agnostics & atheists sometimes say they have no need for God or religion yet they seem to always be on a quest for the bigger better deal - guess that hole cannot be filled with anything they find.

I wouldn't ridicule a person suffering from depression for needing to take a prescription - I don't expect anyone to ridicule me for needing my relationship with God.

[hasbeen99]

Baffles me. I really do not comprehend it. Moral life and living by the golden rule often seem to conflict with it's precepts.

I guess it would depend heavily on the doctrine of the religion in question, and probably on one's interpretation of "The Golden Rule" as well. Usually it's hard to know what another individual would prefer.

[hasbeen99]

My form of evangelism. Spreading the word of reason over blind faith.

Blind faith is a bad thing. Can I join your efforts? :)

[hasbeen99]

Doesn't really matter. When you're dead, you're dead......just like that Possum in the middle of the road or that worm you put on your hook to entice that Bluegill.

Agreed. A dead body is a dead body.

[hasbeen99]

...You had a lot of young adults who are now professing no religion at all (i.e. they don't identify themselves with the main religions). Over time, why do you think some folks have just been turned off with organized religion :confused: ?

I think there are two reasons, speaking strictly from a Christian point of view, and only about the Christian church.

First, many (not all) traditional religious churches have been so corrupted by tradition and custom that the true intentions and purposes of the church (and therefore the positives) have been lost. Many people want to get back to experiencing God, not experiencing church.

Second, there is another large segment of people who are looking for a warm and fuzzy god that makes them feel better without holding them accountable for their actions.

[hasbeen99]

Not surprising at all.
...That is why I always challenge anybody that has questions about God to read the Bible for themselves and make their decisions about God based on his word alone.

Playing "church" wont get you into Heaven.

:applause:

[hasbeen99]

You are correct, I am painting with a broad brush that perhaps is a bit antagonistic. But I in no way retract the generalization that those who profess a belief in a higher power are meaner to their fellow human beings than those who do not.

For that, do you blame the doctrine or the followers? Because in the case of Christians, I can assure you there is a difference in many cases.

[hasbeen99]

YOU CANNOT PROVE THIS.

It's not a matter of fact to be proven. It's an opinion.

[hasbeen99]

Still, I believe in something beyond what can be measured by science. I am pagan--which is really undefinable these days. I believe in the sanctity of life and nature. I believe there are energies that we don't yet understand & can't measure. I believe that emotions and thoughts can have effects beyond what we realize. And I don't find it necessary to understand & quantify things in order to live by what I believe.

I also have the luxury, in my belief system, of being perfectly free to adjust my beliefs to take into account any new discoveries.

Forgive me, but it sounds like you're a lot closer to an agnostic than a pagan. Pagans' beliefs are usually pretty well defined, as they know what the subject of their worship is. Agnosticism is much more vague.

[hasbeen99]

If you were born and raised in Iran this sort of discussion would be illegal. But their point of view is the same about a higher power. Your religion has no more validity than theirs, or AK's paganism.


You're assuming that, based on your own perceptions of Christianity, Islam, and AK's personal beliefs, as well as your own definition of "validity".

[Ignatowski]

Who..or what created god?

[hasbeen99]

Why does it upset you so much when I state that people who do not believe in a higher power are nicer than those who do? Oh, and FYI their IQ's are generally higher as well.

The nicer/meaner thing hits Christians in particular where it hurts. It's a reminder that far too many of us do not live up to the standards we like to claim when it's convenient for us to do so.

The IQ thing is probably perceived as a blanket assumption on the part of the believer that all atheists think theists are morons because we put our faith in a higher power. Of course, that's just as unfair as an atheist assuming all theists are jerks because he or she has run into a few people carrying the label but not living out the doctrine.

[hasbeen99]

If we do indeed "get another chance" as you put it, I'm pretty sure how much money we give to the church or how many times we pray to a higher power has nothing to do with "getting another chance." Treat the earth, animals and fellow man with respect and I'm pretty sure you will be fine. ;) :)

I would agree it has little to do with it, but not 'nothing' to do with it. I would disagree, however, that being ecologically sound and generally a nice person will be much more effective than being in church every Sunday.

[builder]

I always like reading HB's replies. Even though his ideas are very different from mine, he maintains his beliefs and doesn't waver. That takes a serious commitment to what he believes. I gotta give him credit for that even though he is wrong. :D

[hasbeen99]

I apply it in my everyday life. I do not apply it here because I see my primary objective to be a source of annoyance and a voice of discord. In real life I would not ridicule anyone for their beliefs, but I would be lying. Here I can say what I truly believe.

Doesn't this statement prove Magnus' point about hypocrisy on your part?

[hasbeen99]

Any discussion of religion carries no more weight than whether one is a Carolina or Duke fan. To take it more seriously than that is embarassing.


I would agree that anyone who views sports as importantly as their faith should be embarrassed. The difference in weight and value between the two is so significant, it cannot be measured.

It's only logical that one who does not value faith would not see the value of it. :)

[hasbeen99]

I do (speak my mind), and will continue to do so. Get over it.

As long as you cling to this credo, I don't think you can claim "The Golden Rule", can you?

[hasbeen99]

I like the basketball analogy. Everybody has a favorite team. Some are christians, some are muslims, some are buddists, some are pagans, etc....

I'm sort of with you so far. Not totally, but sort of.


...None of them are correct, merely a matter of opinion and faith. It stems from the environment you were raised (read indoctrinated) in.

Here's where you and I part ways. I'll agree that none have a complete grasp of the Truth, but I believe strongly -- as a result of research, process, and experience -- that some are a lot closer than others. And I have yet to find any belief system with more integrity than Bible-based Christianity. But that doesn't mean I've stopped researching and studying, either.

[Miss tery]

One of the reasons I treasure this board is that I can be an honest belligerent asshole about my beliefs. I think this board is separate from the "real" world, and I operate on that assumption. The free flow of ideas on the internet is unique in human history in that we can all be free to speak our minds without any sort of social repercussions. Other than within the confines of the forum of course. I revel in taking advantage of that because I can voice opinions here that I could no where else without losing my job and being shunned by my peers. The same is not true for the other side because they say what the mainstream wants to hear.

So, for that reason I do not adhere to the "golden rule" in this forum.

[hasbeen99]

...Honestly, the people who study science and nature in its purest forms are the first to tell you that all proof leads to a creator - an author.

Many, but not all.

[magnus]

So, for that reason I do not adhere to the "golden rule" in this forum.

So you can operate at will under the golden rule without the 'fear' of something to make you pay for your actions, and yet by your own words you're "real" here, exclusively real, only because there are no repercussions.

It's still contradictory.

[Reznor]

so, in other words, limit mistakes and execute

[hasbeen99]

So when you get to hell and find out that the mormans were right, whatchugonna do?

That's the risk we take. I cannot unequivocally determine that the Bible is right and the Talmud, the Qur'an, and the golden plates of Joseph Smith are wrong. But I've seen enough of a difference in historical and experiential integrity to convince me that the Bible is true. If Jesus isn't who the Bible says He is, I'm screwed.

[Miss tery]

So you can operate at will under the golden rule without the 'fear' of something to make you pay for your actions, and yet by your own words you're "real" here, exclusively real, only because there are no repercussions.

It's still contradictory.
Yup, get over it.

[hasbeen99]

A life lived in fear is a life half lived.

True. But a mortal life lived to the ultimate degree of self satisfaction followed by an eternity of punishment is tragic. It's a risk either way.

[magnus]

Yup, get over it.
I've nothing to get over. It's not my grudge, or my contradiction, nor any level of hollow suggestion of intelligence and insult.
And the worst? I actually don't disrespect your religious beliefs.

[BigVito]

If Jesus isn't who the Bible says He is, I'm screwed.

HB, I disagree strongly on this point.

Worst case scenario, you're beliefs in God in Jesus are wrong. There is no afterlife. There is no "salvation." What you've believed for so long is simply a fairy tale.

You show warmth, humanity and integrity on this board and I find it hard to believe that your board persona is very far removed from your "real life" existence. I imagine that you live a life that balances the "giving" with the "taking" far better than most. Your faith has given you a way to improve yourself and the world you live in. So guess what? Even if you are wrong, you are ahead of the vast majority in living a meaningful life.

In many respects, I agree with MT. I don't believe as the majority on this board believes. By membership, I'm a Unitarian Universalist. By belief, I'm a dreaded "secular humanist" but I do see the value of religion. While it is, far to often a wedge that divides us from our fellows, it is, for many, a path to becoming a better person. For that number, however large or small it may be, religion is a positive force in their world and ours.

[hasbeen99]

http://www.thisboardrocks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53402&page=4&pp=30


This was a great post. Well written, Sadic. I agree wholeheartedly. :applause:

[Miss tery]

HB, I disagree strongly on this point.

Worst case scenario, you're beliefs in God in Jesus are wrong. There is no afterlife. There is no "salvation." What you've believed for so long is simply a fairy tale.

You show warmth, humanity and integrity on this board and I find it hard to believe that your board persona is very far removed from your "real life" existence. I imagine that you live a life that balances the "giving" with the "taking" far better than most. Your faith has given you a way to improve yourself and the world you live in. So guess what? Even if you are wrong, you are ahead of the vast majority in living a meaningful life.

In many respects, I agree with MT. I don't believe as the majority on this board believes. By membership, I'm a Unitarian Universalist. By belief, I'm a dreaded "secular humanist" but I do see the value of religion. While it is, far to often a wedge that divides us from our fellows, it is, for many, a path to becoming a better person. For that number, however large or small it may be, religion is a positive force in their world and ours.
Good post.

[hasbeen99]

Who..or what created god?

My wife asks this all the time. :D

God was not created. He has always been.

[HulkaManiaRunninWild]

HB, I disagree strongly on this point.

Worst case scenario, you're beliefs in God in Jesus are wrong. There is no afterlife. There is no "salvation." What you've believed for so long is simply a fairy tale.

You show warmth, humanity and integrity on this board and I find it hard to believe that your board persona is very far removed from your "real life" existence. I imagine that you live a life that balances the "giving" with the "taking" far better than most. Your faith has given you a way to improve yourself and the world you live in. So guess what? Even if you are wrong, you are ahead of the vast majority in living a meaningful life.

In many respects, I agree with MT. I don't believe as the majority on this board believes. By membership, I'm a Unitarian Universalist. By belief, I'm a dreaded "secular humanist" but I do see the value of religion. While it is, far to often a wedge that divides us from our fellows, it is, for many, a path to becoming a better person. For that number, however large or small it may be, religion is a positive force in their world and ours.

WOW!

[hasbeen99]

The free flow of ideas on the internet is unique in human history in that we can all be free to speak our minds without any sort of social repercussions. Other than within the confines of the forum of course.

Miss tery, the proceeding rant is not directed at you, but at the principle you cited above.

Who came up with that load of bullshit?

Since when do 'social repercussions' go out the window when two (or more) people are talking? Is the internet supposed to be some kind of mythical buffer that keeps people from getting their feelings hurt? Does the same principle apply to telephones? If the reason is that we can't see each other eye-to-eye, the same principle should apply, right? But it doesn't. Why? Because there's a real person on the other end of the line. The internet is no different. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet, so the anonymous username argument holds zero credibility with me. It's still real people on the other end of the T5 cable or telephone line, on the other keyboard, looking on the other monitor.

Here's a reality check, folks -- there is no social Never Never Land where our actions don't affect other people.

[hasbeen99]

HB, I disagree strongly on this point.

Worst case scenario, you're beliefs in God in Jesus are wrong. There is no afterlife. There is no "salvation." What you've believed for so long is simply a fairy tale.

Vito, that's not even close to the worst case scenario. Worst case is that there is a God, but there is no Savior -- be it anyone's version. I have not and do not live up to the standards of the Book of Mormon, the Qur'an, the Talmud, or even the Bible. I'm not good enough.

If there is no God and we all just die, I've lived a pretty good life and helped some people, but I've also lived the vast majority of my life in restriction and denial, and Ecilam would tell you there isn't a much worse way to live.


You show warmth, humanity and integrity on this board and I find it hard to believe that your board persona is very far removed from your "real life" existence. I imagine that you live a life that balances the "giving" with the "taking" far better than most. Your faith has given you a way to improve yourself and the world you live in. So guess what? Even if you are wrong, you are ahead of the vast majority in living a meaningful life.

Thank you very much for your kind words. :mushy:

I try to live what I believe, and I'm not much on false fronts anymore. It just makes life too complicated, and life is complicated enough. To be devil's advocate with you though, if the purpose for living the life I do is false (i.e. there is no God), how meaningful is my life really?

[Miss tery]

Miss tery, the proceeding rant is not directed at you, but at the principle you cited above.

Who came up with that load of bullshit?

Since when do 'social repercussions' go out the window when two (or more) people are talking? Is the internet supposed to be some kind of mythical buffer that keeps people from getting their feelings hurt? Does the same principle apply to telephones? If the reason is that we can't see each other eye-to-eye, the same principle should apply, right? But it doesn't. Why? Because there's a real person on the other end of the line. The internet is no different. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet, so the anonymous username argument holds zero credibility with me. It's still real people on the other end of the T5 cable or telephone line, on the other keyboard, looking on the other monitor. [/i]


Ok I will grant you that. And maybe even revel in it, sort of like a black panther for athiests. If I convert a few, or cast a few doubts....hooray for the secular humanist front. What I meant was that I do not get physically or financially hurt by expressing my views on the internet, which would happen if I did so publicly. It is about time we had a method to strike back at the fundies without those sort of repercussions.

[BigVito]

Vito, that's not even close to the worst case scenario. Worst case is that there is a God, but there is no Savior -- be it anyone's version. I have not and do not live up to the standards of the Book of Mormon, the Qur'an, the Talmud, or even the Bible. I'm not good enough. Then you're screwed. :) One of the reasons I personally have a problem with most organized religions from a belief standpoint is they seem to limit God to a omnipresent overseer with a checklist for passing into the afterlife. It seems that we as humans prefer an anthropomorphic God. From the earliest myths to modern religion, we seem to give to the higher power qualities that we have, both good and bad. If that is what God truly is, then you aren't the only one who is screwed.

If there is no God and we all just die, I've lived a pretty good life and helped some people, but I've also lived the vast majority of my life in restriction and denial, and Ecilam would tell you there isn't a much worse way to live.
Yep, even we of the agnostic/athiestic stripe are guilty of the same. I hope that everyone could find the answer to escape that type of life. For many, religion is the answer. For many, it isn't. My personal belief is that there are as many paths as there are people. That's just me.

Thank you very much for your kind words. :mushy:
Just calling it like I see it.

I try to live what I believe, and I'm not much on false fronts anymore. It just makes life too complicated, and life is complicated enough. To be devil's advocate with you though, if the purpose for living the life I do is false (i.e. there is no God), how meaningful is my life really?
To you, it may seem to be less meaningful. To those you touch, you help, it has great meaning. How meaningful is it to do good only in the hope of a reward either here or in the hereafter?

[magnus]

>>Ok I will grant you that. And maybe even revel in it, sort of like a black panther for athiests. If I convert a few, or cast a few doubts....hooray for the secular humanist front. What I meant was that I do not get physically or financially hurt by expressing my views on the internet, which would happen if I did so publicly. It is about time we had a method to strike back at the fundies without those sort of repercussions.


So basically, it's not a matter of right or wrong at all. It's about trying to hurt others because you feel hurt? A second wrong, more broad than the first, makes a right.

[Miss tery]

Big Vito :1luvu:

[Miss tery]

>>Ok I will grant you that. And maybe even revel in it, sort of like a black panther for athiests. If I convert a few, or cast a few doubts....hooray for the secular humanist front. What I meant was that I do not get physically or financially hurt by expressing my views on the internet, which would happen if I did so publicly. It is about time we had a method to strike back at the fundies without those sort of repercussions.


So basically, it's not a matter of right or wrong at all. It's about trying to hurt others because you feel hurt? A second wrong, more broad than the first, makes a right.
Close....the religious folks have been persecuting the unreligious for so long it is refreshing to have an opportunity to tell them what a bunch of assholes they have been.

[magnus]

Close....the religious folks have been persecuting the unreligious for so long it is refreshing to have an opportunity to tell them what a bunch of assholes they have been.
Taking the actions of the few and grouping them with them all, so as to not learn from the lessons you'd want them to learn.

[Miss tery]

Try taking the actions of the many. I have never engaged in a civil conversation with a "religious" person and not been reviled.
Edit...that is in NC.

[magnus]

Listen. It's not that I'm trying to be the pain in the ass to you, that you're trying to be to any Christian who'll listen from behind the safety of a computer.
I don't hold ill will toward you for having your religious opinions. My personal feeling is that anybody who is rude to you because of that isn't a good person, and yes, that has absolutely nothing to do with their religious belief. It should, but it hasn't. That shouldn't condemn the religion.

I also think that chances are, your hate and disgust for people who you deem Christian probably aren't heavy about their faith, nor have you talked with them about it, most likely. So you're certainly being unfair to people you hold ill will toward, at least a strong portion of them.

I don't find it right that you can preach (intentionally used) the things you do, find it right in your heart, and then act the way you do as well. So while all along, before now as well, I know you're just trying to piss people off, I also know you're not being true to yourself.

And if you're not in belief - honestly, without the bias of hatred for Christians - of a higher power, you must be true to yourself. I think you've said so yourself. But you're not. You're contradictory. And I think you can be better than that. I think you can find honest peace in yourself, including about your religion, and you're not seeking that. That has nothing to do with religion, just with you being honest with yourself and finding out exactly what you do believe. I don't think you're there. I'm not, but I don't profess to have the answers.

[Village Idiot]

Try taking the actions of the many. Y'all are a bunch of hypocritical revisionists. I have never engaged in a civil conversation with a "religious" person and not been reviled.
Edit...that is in NC.You should know better than to generalize.

[Turbo]

What makes me shake my head the most is that Miss_tery doesn't see how she contradicts the very point she tries to make. She claims that most religious people she knows are unkind, hurtful, and hypocrites. She loves to charge them with the fact that they don't live up to the "Christian" ideal but instead are quite horrible to others.

She uses the idea that Christians have persecuted others all throughout history as proof of her charge.

Yet, she herself acts in the exact same way! She revels in her imagined role on the board as the one to "call out the fundies" without any social or financial repercussions. She ends up acting in the exact same way that she complains Christians are acting!

She's even stated that most of the irreligious people she knows are much gentler and better people than the majority of Christians. Her own actions (along with her enjoyment of those actions) contradict her own argument.

If she acted in a "Christian" way, kind, gentle, respectful of other's religious beliefs, she would actually have a stronger argument. She'd be proof that logical, reasoned thinking does more for humanity than Christianity. She would actually "convert" many people to her belief system.

Unfortunately, her own actions (on this board) contradict the very point she is trying to make.

[builder]

She never claimed to be a nice person. She was simply stating a known fact. So why don't you Christians stop trying to tear her down.

[Turbo]

She never claimed to be a nice person. She was simply stating a known fact. So why don't you Christians stop trying to tear her down.
She claimed that people who are not religious are better (nicer, etc) than Christians. I'm pointing out that she is not proof of that.

Besides, I'm not tearing her down; I'm attempting to show the inconsistency of her argument.

I've never said a personal thing about her; I don't know her enough to make that kind of comment.

[magnus]

She never claimed to be a nice person. She was simply stating a known fact. So why don't you Christians stop trying to tear her down.

She claimed a standard she lived by. So therefore it's topical.
She's fully aware of what she's doing, where most probably aren't.
So she has an ability to face up to herself, not anybody else, and resolve this inside her.
Personally, I'm not a strong Christian, I don't profess perfection and I don't act like I'm better than someone because of religion. I know that any bad I do isn't always conscious, and I'm smart enough to know that it's not because of religion.
I've dated an atheist. She seems more angry at God than disbelieving.
I'm not saying that's the case here, but _tery could make it a lot easier on herself by being true to herself.
And if she were getting blasted for being atheistic, sure, I'd even consider defending her. But she's just starting topics, knowing how it'll go, and then wanting to shy from it when it happens. If she doesn't want her life and actions to be a topic, she shouldn't bring them up and defend them.

[builder]

I took her comments on Christians and their behavior as follows:

Some of the meanest, rudest people on this board claim to be Christians.
Those people are the first to insult and tear down another for differing beliefs.
And those people are the first to claim their religion as the guiding principles in life.


Some of those same people are the ones most highly offended by the word "goddammit" even though it means nothing to those that use it. It's just a word to me. It has no significance other than a way of expressing emotion. Yet those so-called Christians are the first ones offended by it while stooping so low in another forum to call people idiots, stupid fuckers, and fucktards.

[magnus]

That's not what I got out of what she was saying - I took hers as saying that you don't need Christianity to be good to others and that the Golden Rule was all you need.

I can't totally disagree with you on some of those ideas. But they're misguided, IMO. There's hypocrisy with religion, but not because of religion. That's like saying, for instance, that black people are physically predisposed to eat fried chicken, or that whites were taught to have their skin pigment.
I have a lot of those feelings about some on this board. There aren't many in this discussion, but there are some with the air of superiority that she herself carries in mirror image.

But let's not make this into some grand, honorable scheme. She was out to talk bad about people and found herself vulnerable to her own criticism.

[builder]

You don't need Christianity to be good to people. I'm good to people all the time. And when I feel like being mean, I don't have to explain myself later.

[magnus]

You don't need Christianity to be good to people. I'm good to people all the time. And when I feel like being mean, I don't have to explain myself later.

If you're true to what you believe, then that's close enough for me.
She's either not true to what she believes, or develops false beliefs for purposes of discussion.

And no, you don't need religion of any sort to be good to people. Everyone knows right from wrong, regardless of religion. I also can't blame religion for someone doing wrong, logically. It only seems that those that do so, are looking to come to that conclusion anyway.

[builder]

Then explain the Muslim belief that it's alright to kill the Infidels? That's religion teaching someone to do wrong. And the crusades. Too many people have died in the name of "God"

[Turbo]

I took her comments on Christians and their behavior as follows:

Some of the meanest, rudest people on this board claim to be Christians.
Those people are the first to insult and tear down another for differing beliefs.
And those people are the first to claim their religion as the guiding principles in life.


Some of those same people are the ones most highly offended by the word "goddammit" even though it means nothing to those that use it. It's just a word to me. It has no significance other than a way of expressing emotion. Yet those so-called Christians are the first ones offended by it while stooping so low in another forum to call people idiots, stupid fuckers, and fucktards.
She goes way beyond that, Builder. _Tery claims that she sees more rudeness and back-stabbing among professed Christians than among those who admit to atheism or agnosticism. She's not talking about people on this board - she's talking about people she interacts in her life.

Even more, she insinuates that, since her experiential research shows that atheists or agnostics tend to be more gentle and polite than those Christians, ALL Christians must be rude and back-stabbers.

Her comments below show this is so:

It is an everyday part of my life in interaction with people in the "real" world. That is where I see the rudeness and back-stabbing of the professed "christians" in my work environment and elsewhere. The very few of my acquaintences that admit to atheism or agnosticism are the most gentle and polite people I know.


...I am painting with a broad brush that perhaps is a bit antagonistic. But I in no way retract the generalization that those who profess a belief in a higher power are meaner to their fellow human beings than those who do not.


Why does it upset you so much when I state that people who do not believe in a higher power are nicer than those who do? Oh, and FYI their IQ's are generally higher as well.

My point is that if she's trying to show that non-Christians are more gentle and polite than Christians, her own actions prove her wrong.

If a Christian started a thread saying the same about non-Christians, i.e. that Christians are much more gentle and polite than non-Christians, that person would be blasted out of the water. And for good reason.

I'm only showing that her own argument can't be proven; and in fact, is disproven by her own actions.

[builder]

Turbo,

I really think it depends on which side of that fence you fall on. It's a matter of perspective. Since you are a Christian, you will never know what it's like not to be one. Just as I will never know what it's like to be black, Jewish, or 4' tall.

[magnus]

Then explain the Muslim belief that it's alright to kill the Infidels? That's religion teaching someone to do wrong. And the crusades. Too many people have died in the name of "God"

Personally, I can't. Don't know Islam, though I've communed with Muslims in various manners, enough to answer that.
I'd have to expect that's more of a cultural thing, since Islamic led countries war with other countries with the same background, save religion, for no other reason than religion.
I could typify all of Islam that way, and yet I know of no one in the US personally that's ever done anything negative in the name of their own religion. Then again, I have no motive to think that any would.

And I don't know that I could ever come up with a satisfactory answer for you, to this or anything else.
I personally know that my rights and wrongs should be better for me being a Christian. Like I said, I'm an imperfect one. I don't flaunt my faith, it's not always rock hard strong. But do I do something wrong because I am, that I otherwise wouldn't? No.

[builder]

Good answer mags.

[ECILAM]

Turbo,

I really think it depends on which side of that fence you fall on. It's a matter of perspective. Since you are a Christian, you will never know what it's like not to be one. Just as I will never know what it's like to be black, Jewish, or 4' tall.

Well then that puts me in a unique position, as I used to be a fervent Christian but now am not. I don't know what you call it when you're agnostic but have at least one religion that you've crossed off the multiple choice list, but that's pretty much me. Nonetheless I know what it was like and understand the mindset; that's why you don't see me ripping into religion as a whole with every breath I make.

When I first dumped Christianity, I was pretty bitter because I felt like I'd been lied to my whole life. But I couldn't be mad at anybody because everyone who preached it to me thought they were telling the truth. Since then I've mellowed out considerably. As long as someone stays out of other people's way and doesn't make life miserable for others they're fine by me.

[Turbo]

Turbo,

I really think it depends on which side of that fence you fall on. It's a matter of perspective. Since you are a Christian, you will never know what it's like not to be one. Just as I will never know what it's like to be black, Jewish, or 4' tall.
I think you're right. Obviously, our own perspective skews our view point on things. No doubt about it.

I've never "condemned" anyone for whatever set of religious beliefs (or lack of) anyone settles on. Everyone is on their own journey through life and people will come to different conclusions based on innumerable factors.

I don't begrudge Miss tery's view point at all. I do, however, think that her argument lacks any merit.

If anyone would make such a characterization of any group, be they blacks, Jews, homosexuals, lefthanders, or whatever, they would be blasted for being insensitive and prejudiced.

I find it amazing that people are accused of prejudice if they claim a that a whole group is bad because a few in that group are bad, yet people make the same claim about Christians and don't look at it as prejudice.

If its prejudice to claim that blacks are all bad because a percentage of them do bad things, then it seems to me that it is prejudice (and wrong) to say that all Christians are bad, rude, back-stabbing, meaner and have low IQ simply because some of them are that way.

Again, I'm only trying to debunk her argument.

In regards to her religious beliefs, she's welcome to any of them, or none at all.

[articulatekitten]

Forgive me, but it sounds like you're a lot closer to an agnostic than a pagan. Pagans' beliefs are usually pretty well defined, as they know what the subject of their worship is. Agnosticism is much more vague.

It might appear that way, but no--I'm most definitely pagan. Not in the traditional "Christian" sense of the word, but still pagan.

Agnosticism is certainly a PART of it, in my case. There's a lot I don't have a concrete opinion on, in terms of a "higher power." One of the most appealing, to me, aspects of modern paganism is that it's extremely individualistic. We are a very widely varied bunch, in terms of specific beliefs; & we don't feel a need to agree on a lot of details. We have a general agreement on some major ideas, & the details are matters of opinion.

A lot of pagans do believe in & worship gods &/or goddesses. Personally, I think of these more as ideas & energies than deities. I believe that in time, these "deities" or "ideas" will be measurable, quantifiable in some way. A LONG time from now, but eventually.

Some people consider me a bit flaky, with my candles & incense & rituals. I think I'm just harnessing, in a very crude & primitive way, energies that are there to be harnessed. And it works damn well for me, too.

I come from a very Christian background, family & education, etc. A great deal of the reason I am pagan now is because of the hypocrisy I experienced in my past. I spent many years on a sort of personal quest for "truth." And I'm living a joyful life now that I wouldn't have thought possible in past years. I've seen others achieve this kind of peace & joy on entirely different paths. Which leads me to believe wholeheartedly, "different strokes for different folks."

[builder]

Personally, I think of these more as ideas & energies than deities. I believe that in time, these "deities" or "ideas" will be measurable, quantifiable in some way. A LONG time from now, but eventually.

Some people consider me a bit flaky, with my candles & incense & rituals. I think I'm just harnessing, in a very crude & primitive way, energies that are there to be harnessed. And it works damn well for me, too.

It is amazing to me that one can burn a bunch of sage and walk around a place to create a totally different feeling in that space. Incense does the same for me. Based on the mood, the smells can create a new feeling all around me that lasts for days.

As for your energies, I have seen them. I have felt them. And I have spent time trying to recapture them on my own but without a lot of success. Maybe it was the person that helped me open my other eye. Maybe it was just the right place and time. Either way, it was a unique experience.

[spud]

In the end, I tend to think that Miss Tery's CONVICTION that there is no God is just as moronic as Spuds' CONVICTION that he's going to Heaven. If you need proof or evidence to have faith, then you don't have faith at all, you've got some form of deductive reasoning. To me, faith and certainty are two different things, and in my experience, people who say things with as much certainty as Miss Tery and Spuds have are really just reacting to the natural human fear of potential nonexistence. Spuds is saying, "I'm so scared to die that I can't function without a guarantee that there's something after," and Miss Tery is saying, "I'm so tired of stressing about the possibility that there's some judgemental God out there, that I'm throwing the whole thing out of my mind. If there is a God, and it's not good enough for him that I'm nice to people, I don't like him anyway."

Nobody likes "maybe"...

Thanks, I didn't know I was afraid to die and that was my reason for choosing to have a relationship with Jesus. You must be the smartest person in the world to know what a person is feeling when you've never met them. You have no idea who I am, nor what I've been thru in my life, which I can just about guarantee is more then the usual.

[sadic1]

Thanks, I didn't know I was afraid to die and that was my reason for choosing to have a relationship with Jesus. You must be the smartest person in the world to know what a person is feeling when you've never met them. You have no idea who I am, nor what I've been thru in my life, which I can just about guarantee is more then the usual.

I knew you were going to react that way.

[spud]

I knew you were going to react that way.


:tongue3:

[BigVito]

Big Vito :1luvu:
:happy:

[Village Idiot]

Turbo,

I really think it depends on which side of that fence you fall on. It's a matter of perspective.AHA! We can end this thread right here.

[hasbeen99]

Then you're screwed. :)

Unless you have proof the rest of the world hasn't seen yet that Jesus of Nazareth isn't who He said He was, you can't really say that, can you? Or at least not with that much certainty... :D

One of the reasons I personally have a problem with most organized religions from a belief standpoint is they seem to limit God to a omnipresent overseer with a checklist for passing into the afterlife. It seems that we as humans prefer an anthropomorphic God.

Agreed. An anthropomorphic God would be much more personal and relatable. More intimate and approachable. Probably one of the reasons why Jesus is so widely accepted to one degree or another. He's the best of both perceptions -- all God and all man.

From the earliest myths to modern religion, we seem to give to the higher power qualities that we have, both good and bad.

That might be a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg argument. Did we attribute those characteristics to a made up god, or did we inherit and recognize those similarities from an eternal one?

If that is what God truly is, then you aren't the only one who is screwed.

True. If God was no better than one of us, but with all that power, we'd all be screwed. But that wasn't my point, really. Every major belief system describes God as being more than us -- better than us, superior in every way imaginable. I've taken a hard look at my life and know undoubtedly I have not measured up to the various standards of Judaism, Islam, or even Christianity over the full span of my years. Not even close. And again, I'm not the only person with that problem. As a matter of fact, it's a core principle of Christianity that no one measures up.

[hasbeen99]

[Re: living a restricted life of self-denial] Yep, even we of the agnostic/athiestic stripe are guilty of the same. I hope that everyone could find the answer to escape that type of life.

People of faith live a life of discipline generally because they believe there is a greater reward for it, either in the afterlife, or in this life, or both. An agnostic I could see 'playing it safe', just in case, but an atheist doing that makes no sense to me at all. The perception of life is totally different. Here and now is all there is, so it makes no sense to me not to experience all the pleasure possible, no matter what the cost. Coincidentally, that's getting close to the basic premise of Satanism and some forms of paganism.

[hasbeen99]

How meaningful is it to do good only in the hope of a reward either here or in the hereafter?

It's totally empty, and even hypocritical. That is, IMO, one of the biggest misunderstood principles of Christianity. Helping other people to build up 'brownie points' with God or to try to earn or pay back God for salvation is missing the point completely. It's to be done first out of gratitude for the gift of salvation, not out of a sense of debt; and second it's done because God told us to love each other as He loves us -- unconditionally.

That is not to say those who serve their fellow man will not be rewarded by God in heaven. That promise is made in the Bible, quoted from Jesus Himself. But the reward is incidental, not the primary motivation.

[hasbeen99]

Try taking the actions of the many. I have never engaged in a civil conversation with a "religious" person and not been reviled.
Edit...that is in NC.

Many, I would agree with. All, I might take issue with. Just out of curiosity, would you include me amongst that group? :)

[hasbeen99]

Then explain the Muslim belief that it's alright to kill the Infidels? That's religion teaching someone to do wrong. And the crusades. Too many people have died in the name of "God"

That's one of the problems I may have with Islam, if it is indeed true (I haven't seen it in context in the Qur'an for myself yet). The problem is, that no matter what a religion teaches, it doesn't absolve the individual from his or her free will. To believe otherwise would be to exhonorate the Nazis because they were following orders. The reverse is also true. One's atrocities are not automatically discounted because of an affiliation to a religion. You're absolutely right -- far too many people have died 'in the name of God', when really most have died because someone in a position of power wanted more power.

[hasbeen99]

When I first dumped Christianity, I was pretty bitter because I felt like I'd been lied to my whole life. But I couldn't be mad at anybody because everyone who preached it to me thought they were telling the truth. Since then I've mellowed out considerably. As long as someone stays out of other people's way and doesn't make life miserable for others they're fine by me.

Some day I would dearly love to hear how this happened, and how you came to your conclusions, if you're willing.

[hasbeen99]

It might appear that way, but no--I'm most definitely pagan. Not in the traditional "Christian" sense of the word, but still pagan.

Quite right. I looked up 'paganism' in the dictionary, and the term is not as restricted as I once thought. I misspoke there, and I apologize.

One of the most appealing, to me, aspects of modern paganism is that it's extremely individualistic. We are a very widely varied bunch, in terms of specific beliefs; & we don't feel a need to agree on a lot of details. We have a general agreement on some major ideas, & the details are matters of opinion.

I mean no disrespect, but it sounds to me like modern paganism largely consists of finding one's own personal deity/spiritual guide. Would that be a fair assessment?

[hasbeen99]

Personally, I think of these more as ideas & energies than deities. I believe that in time, these "deities" or "ideas" will be measurable, quantifiable in some way. A LONG time from now, but eventually.

Would it surprise you to learn I agree with you in many respects on this idea?

I think I'm just harnessing, in a very crude & primitive way, energies that are there to be harnessed. And it works damn well for me, too.

A question -- how do you discern the character or motives of these energies you harness? Or do they not have such properties?

[hasbeen99]

I come from a very Christian background... A great deal of the reason I am pagan now is because of the hypocrisy I experienced in my past.

Would it be accurate to say you discarded the message because of the messengers then? Please don't perceive this as taking a shot at you, I'm just trying to fully understand what happened, and why you made your decision.

I spent many years on a sort of personal quest for "truth."

I'd LOVE to hear more about this -- what you researched, where you searched, what you found.

[BigVito]

Too much good stuff here to digest in one sitting. I'll take a quick look at this for starters.

An agnostic I could see 'playing it safe', just in case, but an atheist doing that makes no sense to me at all. The perception of life is totally different. Here and now is all there is, so it makes no sense to me not to experience all the pleasure possible, no matter what the cost. Coincidentally, that's getting close to the basic premise of Satanism and some forms of paganism.
One thing that concerns me is that "non-believers" whether agnostic, pagan or atheist get brushed with this broad stroke. Since we live in the "here and now" we are free of any sort of moral compass or ethics since there is no one to answer to. This simply isn't true. We answer to ourselves, our family, our friends, our community and world as a whole.
As a non-practicing UU, I still subscribe to the basic tenets of the "church".

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

HB, most of these are the cornerstones of much of Humanist thought and surprisingly, most of the world's religions once you strip away the ritual and accompanying lore. I believe that these things aren't just of Judeo/Christian origins but of a natural recognition of what we must do to survive as a species.

While I do not believe in a Supreme Being, I do believe I am connected to my fellow men and women and that my actions have an effect on them. I feel a sense of responsibility to my community at large to work to improve our world in any small way if possible. Simply not believing is not free reign for most people I know who are non-believers (in the sense that MT has addressed) to be irresponsible in acts or actions. We'll leave the narcissism and avarice to the LeVey Satanists and "Say and Claim it" TV evangelists.

[Miss tery]

I understand that I have offended many members of the board with my remarks. I also see that that conflicts with my desire to live totally by the golden rule. But again I must reiterate that I perceive this arena as one in which a person can be free to express opinions which would not only be reviled in the meat world, but would also lead to catastrophic consequences to me.

I do accept that my opinions may cause some intellectual pain to some of the members, and I do apologize for that. But to not post them gives me no other outlet. I'm driven to emphasize that a minority exists with my beliefs.

[magnus]

I understand that I have offended many members of the board with my remarks. I also see that that conflicts with my desire to live totally by the golden rule. But again I must reiterate that I perceive this arena as one in which a person can be free to express opinions which would not only be reviled in the meat world, but would also lead to catastrophic consequences to me.

I do accept that my opinions may cause some intellectual pain to some of the members, and I do apologize for that. But to not post them gives me no other outlet. I'm driven to emphasize that a minority exists with my beliefs.

I don't feel like they caused any pain. I do think that was the intent, certainly.

[hasbeen99]

I understand that I have offended many members of the board with my remarks. I also see that that conflicts with my desire to live totally by the golden rule. But again I must reiterate that I perceive this arena as one in which a person can be free to express opinions which would not only be reviled in the meat world, but would also lead to catastrophic consequences to me.

I do accept that my opinions may cause some intellectual pain to some of the members, and I do apologize for that. But to not post them gives me no other outlet. I'm driven to emphasize that a minority exists with my beliefs.

Thank you for this post, Tery. I'm not greatly bothered personally by what you've posted with regard to religious people and even about God Himself, but some people are. Some people here agree with you. But that's the risk we all run anytime we vent our spleens in a public forum.

Have you ever checked out www.internetinfidels.com ? I think you'd like it there. Seriously. I tried to poke around and exchange some ideas and they ran me off within 2 weeks.

[hasbeen99]

One thing that concerns me is that "non-believers" whether agnostic, pagan or atheist get brushed with this broad stroke. Since we live in the "here and now" we are free of any sort of moral compass or ethics since there is no one to answer to. This simply isn't true. We answer to ourselves, our family, our friends, our community and world as a whole.

I apologize, Vito. That was a generalization, and a bad one. I do think most non-theists (?) do share a common sense accountability to the common good. My bad.

As a non-practicing UU, I still subscribe to the basic tenets of the "church".

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

HB, most of these are the cornerstones of much of Humanist thought and surprisingly, most of the world's religions once you strip away the ritual and accompanying lore. I believe that these things aren't just of Judeo/Christian origins but of a natural recognition of what we must do to survive as a species.

Agreed. Those principles are cornerstones of how to make any society or community function in prosperity. No dogma owns the copyright on them -- they're the lessons learned and developed from years of human social interaction.

While I do not believe in a Supreme Being...

Is that a component of UU beliefs, or is that why you're not a practicing member of that system? I noticed in your list, 'spiritual growth' was included. How does that fit in to your personal beliefs, and the beliefs of the church?

[BigVito]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigVito
While I do not believe in a Supreme Being...

Originally posted by HB
Is that a component of UU beliefs, or is that why you're not a practicing member of that system? I noticed in your list, 'spiritual growth' was included. How does that fit in to your personal beliefs, and the beliefs of the church?

UU is a very open church. It is actually more of a "spiritual" community. Membership at the church I attended in N. Charlotte was made of an array of beliefs: Christian, Jewish, Pagan, Humanist, Zen Buddist, , agnostic, and athiest. Sometimes you could find all of them in one family. :)

Membership does not require adherence to one dogma or theology. Instead, membership is freely given to any who agree with the 7 principles I posted earlier. To be honest, in this area, the UU Church is often a place for those who feel disenfranchised by "tradtional religion."

The reasons I'm no longer active in this particular church are long and varied, the core being is that I work over 40 Sundays a year. My definition of spiritual growth, bettering oneself as a person both internally and as a member of the community, is fully welcomed and recognized there and with that there was no conflict.

The backgrounds of both Unitarianism and Universalism are quite fascinating in themselves and how these two Christian theologies became the modern UU is a marvel of adaptation and change.

[Miss tery]

I wish someone would come up with a more humanistic concept for "spiritual". I think there is a lot of stuff I could agree with but I find that particular word both patronizing and simplistic.

[hispeed]

miss tery,

i believe a more humanistic concept for spiritual would be not just searching and finding our innerself but knowing who or what our innerself belongs to. for me it is the Lord. for others it may be a job, relationship, drugs, material things, anything we devote total denial of oneself for. hope that helps

[Ssstern]

Opiate of the masses. Errr. did I come too late?

[articulatekitten]

Quite right. I looked up 'paganism' in the dictionary, and the term is not as restricted as I once thought. I misspoke there, and I apologize.



I mean no disrespect, but it sounds to me like modern paganism largely consists of finding one's own personal deity/spiritual guide. Would that be a fair assessment?

No apology necessary, HB. You & my sister are the most sincere & truly inspired "fundies" I know :D

When I say that I am pagan, what I mean--& what I think MOST pagans mean--is that we are "earth-based" in our spirituality. I half-laughingly refer to myself as a "tree-hugging dirt-worshipper." What I really mean by that is that I take my cues from Mother Nature on what is important, & what needs to be considered in matters of concern. So of course, ecology is a major concern of mine.

You are correct in what you surmise about finding one's own personal deity/spiritual guide, at least to some degree. Some people NEED/WANT more specific guidance than others. So what works for person A may not work at all for person B. Thus, I am not surprised that different people respond VERY differently to doctrines, to history, to personal leadership, & all the other variables that come into play as regards spirituality.

My sister & I are fairly good examples. We are both intelligent women. She was always the more headstrong of the two of us, which is a little ironic now. Both of us spent some years being indoctrinated into the family Roman Catholicism. Yet today, she is the matriarch of a fundamentalist Christian family (& I must insert here, more open-minded than most such groups I've ever encountered); & I am unabashedly pagan. There is more common ground there than one might think; because she & I explore it regularly.

When you get down to it, what spirituality IS is how we interact with each other, with other living things, with the planet; & with our perception of the purpose of our lives.

[El Bastardo]

You guys need to look deeper into the whole religious sham before spouting off about your saviors and dieties, et al. Does anyone actually believe that god or muhammed or krishna, or Santa Clause actually exists? Give me one shred of proof. Before you christian nutcases spout off on the bible as being the word of god, tell me this...were you there when it was written? Where is your proof that this is the word of some onimpotent being in the clouds? Have any of you played telephone? You know, the kid's game where one person whispers into the ear of the next and so on and so on, until at the end the original message is completely FUBAR (fucked up beyond all recognition)? This is religion. Face it, there's no proof and faith is a cop out. Tery, you're right on the money!

[Ssstern]

You guys need to look deeper into the whole religious sham before spouting off about your saviors and dieties, et al. Does anyone actually believe that god or muhammed or krishna, or Santa Clause actually exists? Give me one shred of proof. Before you christian nutcases spout off on the bible as being the word of god, tell me this...were you there when it was written? Where is your proof that this is the word of some onimpotent being in the clouds? Have any of you played telephone? You know, the kid's game where one person whispers into the ear of the next and so on and so on, until at the end the original message is completely FUBAR (fucked up beyond all recognition)? This is religion. Face it, there's no proof and faith is a cop out. Tery, you're right on the money!


Not to chime in but the Bible you are reading was produced several centuries after the events even happened. In in most cases it was very liberially translated. The King James that is.

[El Bastardo]

Not to chime in but the Bible you are reading was produced several centuries after the events even happened. In in most cases it was very liberially translated. The King James that is.
That's my point!

[builder]

Oh my god. You killed Jesus. You bastardo! :xyzthumbs

[Turbo]

I understand that I have offended many members of the board with my remarks. I also see that that conflicts with my desire to live totally by the golden rule. But again I must reiterate that I perceive this arena as one in which a person can be free to express opinions which would not only be reviled in the meat world, but would also lead to catastrophic consequences to me.

I do accept that my opinions may cause some intellectual pain to some of the members, and I do apologize for that. But to not post them gives me no other outlet. I'm driven to emphasize that a minority exists with my beliefs.
Miss tery, I was not offended by your remarks.

My only discussion with you was that your argument was not logical or reasonable. Surely, after promoting reason and logic for your beliefs, I thought that it was disappointing that your argument didn't have logic or reason.

Your argument doesn't logic or reason for two main reasons:
1. You stated that generally speaking, the non-Christians you know are more gentle and polite than the Christians you know. Yet, your own style of posting showed that you were neither more gentle nor more polite than the Christians you were calling out.
2. You make a very general statement about ALL Christians based on the few that you've met or talked to. This is the same trouble that people get into when they judge any group by a few who are part of that group.

In regards to your personal beliefs, I have no beef with you. As I stated in another post, I believe that many people arrive at their belief systems in many different ways. I don't see my "role" on this board to ridicule you for your beliefs nor to try to make you change those beliefs.

[Turbo]

Not to chime in but the Bible you are reading was produced several centuries after the events even happened. In in most cases it was very liberially translated. The King James that is.

This may be true to some portions of the Old Testament, however, this is simply not true regarding the New Testament portion.

In the New Testament portion, ALL of the books were written within 62 years of the death of Jesus.

The Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, the letters written by Paul and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D.

In regards to your point about the King James Version of the Bible, it is not a liberally translated version of the Bible. In fact, it is just the opposite.

Many modern day versions are more or less translated with wide latittude in order to make it read easier in modern day english. This is more true with the paraphrases (The Living Bible, etc).

The King James Version came from a line of manuscripts that was put together by Erasmus, a Catholic scholar in the first century. His work became the basis for the Luther Bible, the French Bible and the King James Version.

These versions are very true to the Greek manuscripts with very little lattitude given to make it read easier.

[ECILAM]

Some day I would dearly love to hear how this happened, and how you came to your conclusions, if you're willing.

We'll see. If the discussion at hand warrants it and I have time to kill, The Rest of the Story may come out.

[vpkozel]

I do accept that my opinions may cause some intellectual pain to some of the members, and I do apologize for that. But to not post them gives me no other outlet. I'm driven to emphasize that a minority exists with my beliefs.

I can't speak for everyone, but you would get a lot more respect from me if you took the time to question and analyze certain parts of your faith and discuss them as openly and calmly as some members here do.

There are holes and contradictions in your version of the "truth" as well and failing to discuss them simply makes you look like a politician spewing soundbites, IMO.

For me personally evolution and creation can easliy be part of the same system.

[vpkozel]

We'll see. If the discussion at hand warrants it and I have time to kill, The Rest of the Story may come out.

You are going to be in freaking Korea. About the only thing you're gonna have is time.

[hasbeen99]

You guys need to look deeper into the whole religious sham before spouting off about your saviors and dieties, et al. Does anyone actually believe that god or muhammed or krishna, or Santa Clause actually exists? Give me one shred of proof. Before you christian nutcases spout off on the bible as being the word of god, tell me this...were you there when it was written? Where is your proof that this is the word of some onimpotent being in the clouds? Have any of you played telephone? You know, the kid's game where one person whispers into the ear of the next and so on and so on, until at the end the original message is completely FUBAR (fucked up beyond all recognition)? This is religion. Face it, there's no proof and faith is a cop out.

Spoken like an individual who hasn't done one ounce of investigation for himself.

'Proof' is a subjective term, as defined by Webster's. Whether not something is considered "proof" is totally up to the individual. It's all just evidence, and each has to make up his own mind. There have been libraries of books compiled and written on the evidence for God and for the identity of Jesus of Nazareth. Two of the best I've seen so far are The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ, both written by a former atheist named Lee Strobel.

For the record, I usually point to science for the strongest evidence of the existence of God, not the Bible. :)

[Turbo]

There have been libraries of books compiled and written on the evidence for God and for the identity of Jesus of Nazareth. Two of the best I've seen so far are The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ, both written by a former atheist named Lee Strobel.


Awesome books. I'd recommend any serious atheist to read The Case for Christ. Not necessarily to change their minds but to stop using shallow, untrue reasons for rejecting God. They might learn a thing or two, I'd say.

[Village Idiot]

This may be true to some portions of the Old Testament, however, this is simply not true regarding the New Testament portion.

In the New Testament portion, ALL of the books were written within 62 years of the death of Jesus.

The Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, the letters written by Paul and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D.

In regards to your point about the King James Version of the Bible, it is not a liberally translated version of the Bible. In fact, it is just the opposite.

Many modern day versions are more or less translated with wide latittude in order to make it read easier in modern day english. This is more true with the paraphrases (The Living Bible, etc).

The King James Version came from a line of manuscripts that was put together by Erasmus, a Catholic scholar in the first century. His work became the basis for the Luther Bible, the French Bible and the King James Version.

These versions are very true to the Greek manuscripts with very little lattitude given to make it read easier.It is nice to see someone talking about the Bible that actually knows something about it. Rare breed these days. Thank you.

[articulatekitten]

Would it surprise you to learn I agree with you in many respects on this idea?

No. :D


A question -- how do you discern the character or motives of these energies you harness? Or do they not have such properties?

Fascinating question! They don't have such attributes as character & motive any more than, say, electricity does. Positives & negatives, yes, but not in the sense of one being good & the other bad. The Chinese idea of Yin & Yang is a good parallel. It's my OWN character & motive that concerns me, as it should.

[articulatekitten]

Would it be accurate to say you discarded the message because of the messengers then? Please don't perceive this as taking a shot at you, I'm just trying to fully understand what happened, and why you made your decision.

I'd LOVE to hear more about this -- what you researched, where you searched, what you found.

No, not at all. The dichotomy between words & behavior was a fairly constant source of discomfort for me though, even painful. The best analogy I can think of is that of being stuck in a suit of clothes that fit all wrong--nothing matches up, you're miserably uncomfortable, you can't move properly. This discomfort made me long to understand: What is truth, & how can I know if I find it?

The search story is too long to tackle right now, but I will say I tried much harder to find truth within Christianity than outside of it.

[articulatekitten]

. . . One thing that concerns me is that "non-believers" whether agnostic, pagan or atheist get brushed with this broad stroke. Since we live in the "here and now" we are free of any sort of moral compass or ethics since there is no one to answer to. This simply isn't true. We answer to ourselves, our family, our friends, our community and world as a whole.
. . .
While I do not believe in a Supreme Being, I do believe I am connected to my fellow men and women and that my actions have an effect on them. I feel a sense of responsibility to my community at large to work to improve our world in any small way if possible. Simply not believing is not free reign for most people I know who are non-believers (in the sense that MT has addressed) to be irresponsible in acts or actions. We'll leave the narcissism and avarice to the LeVey Satanists and "Say and Claim it" TV evangelists.

Thanks so much BigV, for explaining that so eloquently! So many people completely misunderstand this. Is the existence of God--any God--necessary for moral & ethical standards? Absolutely not! The universe is loaded with "natural laws"--such as the laws of physics. Likewise, there are natural consequences to our behaviors in our social interactions.

[ECILAM]

The search story is too long to tackle right now, but I will say I tried much harder to find truth within Christianity than outside of it.

[slydevl]

Bump for hasbeens.

Several posts in here by Miss_Tery imply atheists are smarter than Christians, please delete each. I also think that Miss_Tery's repeated spelling and grammar lessons qualify as "sniping".

[hasbeen99]

Bump for hasbeens.

Several posts in here by Miss_Tery imply atheists are smarter than Christians, please delete each. I also think that Miss_Tery's repeated spelling and grammar lessons qualify as "sniping".

Done. :)

[Miss tery]

The underscore is long gone. Interesting that some of the latest posts dispute arguments to which there was no logical answer. But then there never is about religion.

[Miss tery]

:mercy: Bump for hasbeens.

Several posts in here by Miss_Tery imply atheists are smarter than Christians, please delete each. I also think that Miss_Tery's repeated spelling and grammar lessons qualify as "sniping".

Why should the posts about intelligence be deleted? If a national survey was taken of SAT scores cross-referenced with religious beliefs I believe it would be validated.

[Miss tery]

BTW, and it probably will be asked.....I suck at tests. I only got 1380.

[Village Idiot]

If a national survey was taken of SAT scores cross-referenced with religious beliefs I believe it would be validated. :thinking:
Hmmm

[Miss tery]

Oh yeah....and belly and nose piercings.

[Village Idiot]

Oh yeah....and belly and nose piercings. :laugh1:
Are you tipsy again?

[Miss tery]

Yup. But somebody deleted a post.

[Village Idiot]

Yup. But somebody deleted a post.Sho nuff...you behave yourself 'round here girl.
:)

[slydevl]

Done. :)

Poor job

When someone calls my faith blind and lacking reason, that is a shot:

"My form of evangelism. Spreading the word of reason over blind faith."

When someone says people turn away from religion because they are getting smarter, that is a shot:

"They are just getting smarter. They realize all that organized religion stuff is on par with the easter bunny and santa claus."

And its not going to end, look at last night:

"Why should the posts about intelligence be deleted? If a national survey was taken of SAT scores cross-referenced with religious beliefs I believe it would be validated."

You want to play the moderator game and delete posts? Have an even hand. You want to coddle some? Coddle all.

[hasbeen99]

When someone calls my faith blind and lacking reason, that is a shot:

"My form of evangelism. Spreading the word of reason over blind faith."

I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I should think that being a theology student, you'd be in favor of "spreading the word of reason over blind faith". Besides, she wasn't singling out any one particular faith. The reason she started the thread was that she didn't understand how religion could coincide with an intelligent society. The history of religious cultures suggests a tendency to explain the unknown with religion itself. Now that many of those questions have been answered by science, I believe her question was directed to whether or not religion still had value. I did not see it as a shot. I saw it as a legitimate question borne from a misunderstanding of what religion really is.


When someone says people turn away from religion because they are getting smarter, that is a shot:

"They are just getting smarter. They realize all that organized religion stuff is on par with the easter bunny and santa claus."

It's not a shot, it's a theory. If she perceives religion is mainly something to fill in the blanks of the unknown, then as humanity becomes more intelligent, it would follow that an increasing number of people would abandon religion. And people all over the world are abandoning it. I'll acknowledge that, even if I disagree with her about the reason.


And its not going to end, look at last night:

"Why should the posts about intelligence be deleted? If a national survey was taken of SAT scores cross-referenced with religious beliefs I believe it would be validated."

She didn't say it was fact, she said "I believe". Anyone is free to disagree with her and debate her on that theory.


You want to play the moderator game and delete posts? Have an even hand. You want to coddle some? Coddle all.

I don't want to play games, and I'd rather not have to delete posts. I thought I was pretty clear on that in the "NO SNIPING" thread. I want this to be a respectful forum for people to share their thoughts and ideas without being ridiculed for it, and so does Larry.

Clearly you're sensitive to her position because of past exchanges. I stated in the sniping thread that everyone comes in here with a clean slate. I'm not here to settle old scores or to right old wrongs. If that's what you want, I'm sorry -- I can't help you.

Sly, I want you to be a part of this forum. Your education far surpasses mine, and I think you bring a lot to the table. If you can get past your intolerance for Miss tery, I'd love to have you join in. If not, perhaps it would be better if you didn't.

BTW, she also apologized for offending anyone in this thread. Have you done the same?

[slydevl]

I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I should think that being a theology student, you'd be in favor of "spreading the word of reason over blind faith". Besides, she wasn't singling out any one particular faith. The reason she started the thread was that she didn't understand how religion could coincide with an intelligent society. The history of religious cultures suggests a tendency to explain the unknown with religion itself. Now that many of those questions have been answered by science, I believe her question was directed to whether or not religion still had value. I did not see it as a shot. I saw it as a legitimate question borne from a misunderstanding of what religion really is.






It's not a shot, it's a theory. If she perceives religion is mainly something to fill in the blanks of the unknown, then as humanity becomes more intelligent, it would follow that an increasing number of people would abandon religion. And people all over the world are abandoning it. I'll acknowledge that, even if I disagree with her about the reason.




She didn't say it was fact, she said "I believe". Anyone is free to disagree with her and debate her on that theory.




I don't want to play games, and I'd rather not have to delete posts. I thought I was pretty clear on that in the "NO SNIPING" thread. I want this to be a respectful forum for people to share their thoughts and ideas without being ridiculed for it, and so does Larry.

Clearly you're sensitive to her position because of past exchanges. I stated in the sniping thread that everyone comes in here with a clean slate. I'm not here to settle old scores or to right old wrongs. If that's what you want, I'm sorry -- I can't help you.

Sly, I want you to be a part of this forum. Your education far surpasses mine, and I think you bring a lot to the table. If you can get past your intolerance for Miss tery, I'd love to have you join in. If not, perhaps it would be better if you didn't.

BTW, she also apologized for offending anyone in this thread. Have you done the same?

Move this thread back to R&R if you are not willing to make it conform to your own rules.

If you are willing to stand by and allow someone to call anyone who is religious stupid then you are not being fair and perhaps you shouldn't be moderator of this forum.

I can parse words all day long like MT does and say it is merely theory all I want is an even playing field and obviously you aren't willing to provide that.

Please post anything remaining in this forum for which you think I need to apologize and I will judge each based on its merits.

[hasbeen99]

Move this thread back to R&R if you are not willing to make it conform to your own rules.

An excellent suggestion. Done.

I apologize to everyone whose posts I edited or deleted in this thread. Once I moved it back to R&R, I wasn't able to restore them.


If you are willing to stand by and allow someone to call anyone who is religious stupid...

That is not what she said, Sly. If she said that, I would've deleted it.


...then you are not being fair and perhaps you shouldn't be moderator of the Religion forum.

I can parse words all day long like MT does and say it is merely theory all I want is an even playing field and obviously you aren't willing to provide that.

So far, I've been willing to give Miss tery the benefit of the doubt because she's showing me she's making an effort not to be inflammatory or insulting in that forum. As long as she does so, I will continue to give her the benefit of the doubt. I offer the same to you and everyone else, Sly. But when your second post ever in that forum is "Does Miss tery have a soul?", the clean slate you were given is already soiled. That's as fair as I know how to be.

I respect your opinion, Sly, but if you disagree with the way I moderate that forum please take it up with Larry. As far as I know, I'm acting in accordance to his wishes.

[ezy ryder]

BTW, and it probably will be asked.....I suck at tests. I only got 1380.

Very nice score and you're obviously a smart woman. But like so many others with high IQs, you're socially retarded.

[kshead]

:mercy:

Why should the posts about intelligence be deleted? If a national survey was taken of SAT scores cross-referenced with religious beliefs I believe it would be validated.

Not so sure about that.

[Captain Morgan]

What's a snipe?

[kshead]

What's a snipe?

We used to hunt them back home in WV. :)

[hasbeen99]

What's a snipe?

Come hunting with me and I'll show you. :D

[Captain Morgan]

Come hunting with me and I'll show you. :D

I'll actually be in Southern California again in mid-May. Will it be snipe season? By the way, you don't hunt for these snipe behind Target stores do you?

[Miss tery]

Get two rocks and a burlap bag.

[hasbeen99]

I'll actually be in Southern California again in mid-May. Will it be snipe season?

Snipe are federally protected in California. Sorry, bud. :(

[Miss tery]

As an interesting aside to Snipe pursuance, I never saw the post by Sly that asked "Does Miss tery have a soul?". If I had, and been given the opportunity to respond, I would have said no.

[Captain Morgan]

Do snipes have souls?

[Miss tery]

Do snipes have souls?
HB said Christianity doesn't say anything about animals and souls.

[slydevl]

As an interesting aside to Snipe pursuance, I never saw the post by Sly that asked "Does Miss tery have a soul?". If I had, and been given the opportunity to respond, I would have said no.

And this is part of my beef with what hasbeens did. There was no way you were going to be offended by that post. I imagine you would have smirked and answered which was my intent. He overstepped his bounds IMO.

[BigVito]

And this is part of my beef with what hasbeens did. There was no way you were going to be offended by that post. I imagine you would have smirked and answered which was my intent. He overstepped his bounds IMO.Since this is out of the R & S forum I'm now free to state my opinion that Sly is an arrogant asshole. Bright, well educated, and I like him, but still an arrogant asshole.

:D

[kshead]

Since this is out of the R & S forum I'm now free to state my opinion that Sly is an arrogant asshole. Bright, well educated, and I like him, but still an arrogant asshole.

:D

But the important question is:

Does he have soul? I'm not sure a rainbow 'fro is enough to qualify.

[vpkozel]

Does he have soul? I'm not sure a rainbow 'fro is enough to qualify.

A fro? He probably has less hair than you do.

[BigVito]

A fro? He probably has less hair than you do.The fro is to hide a balding pate? I thought he was trying to form a gay friendly Slyvers tribute band. We all know Sly has that Boogie Fever.

[kshead]

The fro is to hide a balding pate?

It's so convincing too. I'm gonna wear one to work tomorrow. I wonder if anyone will notice on the METRO?

[BigVito]

It's so convincing too. I'm gonna wear one to work tomorrow. I wonder if anyone will notice on the METRO?Carry a John 3:16 sign and folks will think you're heading to a sports event.

[kshead]

I'm afraid it will end up stuck to my head like when Homer glued one to Bush I's head on The Simpsons. :(

[Miss tery]

I didn't smirk.

[Patti]

Since this is out of the R & S forum I'm now free to state my opinion that Sly is an arrogant asshole. Bright, well educated, and I like him, but still an arrogant asshole.

:D
I hope this in no way vindicates Miss_Terry in her belief that most Christians are assholes.

[Miss tery]

I hope this in no way vindicates Miss_Terry in her belief that most Christians are assholes.
If that is the interpretation the members have of my philosophy I sincerely apologize. I realize at times I do tend to be dogmatic and defensive since the Athiestic point of view is anathema to many.

[BigVito]

I hope this in no way vindicates Miss_Terry in her belief that most Christians are assholes.I firmly believe that assholiness transcends all religious affliations. Believe me, I've met more than my fair share of Wiccans and Neo-Pagans that deserve a slap up side the head. As for those Tibetan Monks, the humilty was all a front. All dolled up in their orange robes acting all transcendent and all. Assholes.


:D

[Patti]

If that is the interpretation the members have of my philosophy I sincerely apologize. I realize at times I do tend to be dogmatic and defensive since the Athiestic point of view is anathema to many.
Thank you Miss_Terry.

[slydevl]

Since this is out of the R & S forum I'm now free to state my opinion that Sly is an arrogant asshole. Bright, well educated, and I like him, but still an arrogant asshole.

:D

If standing up for what I believe and what I feel is right makes me an arrogant asshole, so be it. I have no problem with that.

[Patti]

I firmly believe that assholiness transcends all religious affliations. Believe me, I've met more than my fair share of Wiccans and Neo-Pagans that deserve a slap up side the head. As for those Tibetan Monks, the humilty was all a front. All dolled up in their orange robes acting all transcendent and all. Assholes.


:D
That was really what I was getting at Big V. They transcend ALL affliations.

[Village Idiot]

I firmly believe that assholiness transcends all religious affliations. Believe me, I've met more than my fair share of Wiccans and Neo-Pagans that deserve a slap up side the head. As for those Tibetan Monks, the humilty was all a front. All dolled up in their orange robes acting all transcendent and all. Assholes.


:D :rofl:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Miss tery]

Y'all get my damn screen name right, bunch of ignorant stupies. The underscore is gone and tery is not capitalized.

[Patti]

Y'all get my damn screen name right, bunch of ignorant stupies. The underscore is gone and tery is not capitalized.See assholes can come in all colors, shapes, sizes, religions, no religions. etc etc

:)