View Full Version : The best explanation of "HELL" that I've found
**For anyone truly interested; sorry this is as long as it is. It is intended to give sufficient study to the subject.**
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These are questions which deserve sound Bible answers, and the controversy surrounding the subject should not discourage us from exposing all the truth as it is in Christ. First of all, we need to understand that there is a heaven to win and a hell to shun. Jesus taught that every soul will be either saved or lost. There is no neutral place, and there are no second prizes. "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, And them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Matthew 13:41-43.
In view of these two ultimate destinies for all who have ever been born, how earnest we should be in seeking to find the right way. Christ said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." The only absolute safety for anyone is to take exactly what Jesus taught about hell. His doctrine is the only one which is wholly dependable and true. He said some will be cast into the fire, and some will shine forth in the kingdom.
Strangely enough, Christ has been charged by many religious leaders with teaching a falsehood on this subject. They have accused Him of teaching that an immortal soul flies away from the body at death to either heaven or hell. This is not what Jesus taught at all. He never gave the least intimation that some disembodied soul separates from the body at the time of death. And surely He did not ever give the impression that the wicked suffer an eternal torment as soon as they die.
Now let's get a sample of what Jesus really taught on the subject of hell. "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell ..." Mark 9:43. These words of the Master prove beyond any shadow of doubt that it is the body which goes into the fire, and not some mystical soul. In Matthew 5:30 He spoke of the "whole body" being cast into hell. That means hands, feet, eyes, and all the other members of the physical body.
In contrast to the doctrine of Christ, modern pulpits resound with dramatic portrayals of imaginary souls leaving the body at death--souls that have neither substance nor shape. This view, popular though it may be, is totally contrary to what Jesus taught. Mark it well, for the great Master Teacher spelled it out repeatedly in the gospels--those who are cast into the fire of hell will go there with hands, feet, eyes, and all the physical features of the body. They will not go in some ethereal state of formless spirit or soul.
Now we are prepared to examine four great facts from the Bible which will illuminate most of the questions which have been asked about the fate of the wicked.
Punishment After the Judgment
The first important fact about hell is this: The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares. After the householder had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds while they were still very small. The householder's answer was, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:29, 30.
Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-43.
No one can simplify the parable by enlarging on what Jesus said. It is so clear that a child can understand it. He said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." How can anyone misconstrue these words of Christ? The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.
Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished. Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it? Suppose a man should be brought into the court accused of stealing, and the judge said, "Put him away for ten years; then we'll try his case." Listen, even a human judge would not be that unfair! He would be impeached for such an action. Surely God would not be guilty of such a farce.
If we let the Bible mean what it says, there can be no doubt on this point. The wicked are "reserved" until when? Until the "day of judgment." To be what? "To be punished"! This means they cannot be punished before that judgment day. Does the Bible tell where they are reserved until then? Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28 29
How plain! Jesus said that both good and bad will come forth from their graves to receive either life or damnation. This proves that from the time of death until they come forth in the resurrection they are not receiving any recompense or punishment. It all happens after they come forth. They are reserved until that day just as Peter indicated, but Christ spelled out where they will be reserved--"in the graves."
If plainer words are needed, listen to Jesus speaking in Luke 14:14, "Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Or hear Him again in Matthew 16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." When is "then"? When He comes with His angels. No reward or recompense is handed out until the resurrection of the just, when He comes with all the angels. These verses are beyond controversy. Taken in their context, they contain no ambiguity or hidden meaning.
Again Christ is quoted in the very last chapter of the Bible, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. Here He reminds us that "every man"--every person--will receive his just reward when Christ returns to this earth. Job declares "that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Daniel wrote that they which "sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2.
Can there be any doubt where the wicked are reserved before facing resurrection, judgment, and punishment? We have the testimony of Peter, Daniel, Job and the Master Himself. There is no room to quibble. They are reserved in the grave.
(Continued)
Now we come to the second great fact about hell: None of the unsaved will be cast into hell-fire until after the second coming of Jesus at the end of the world. Although we have already seen substantial evidence on this point, let's look even more. Describing the punishment of the wicked, John wrote: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21: 8.
No Second Death Before the Resurrection
Here the lost are pictured in the fires of hell, suffering the punishment for their sins. And what is that punishment? "The second death," says John. Do you realize what this proves about the wicked? It proves they will not be cast into the lake of fire until after the resurrection takes place. These people die the second death in the fire, but they cannot suffer a second death until they get a second life. They lived the first life in this world and died the first death, going into the grave. Before they can die a second death they must be resurrected--they must be given a second life. This, of course, is what happens at the end of the world. Jesus said, "All that are in the graves shall come forth."
Now after getting that second life in the resurrection, the wicked will be punished for their sins in hell-fire, "which is the second death." By the way, that second death is the final, eternal death from which there will be no resurrection. But the point to be noted is the time of this hell-fire punishment--it is after the resurrection at the end of the world. It does not take place at the time of the first death as so many have been led to believe.
Does the Bible tell us how the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire? Yes, it does. John describes the dramatic events that take place at the close of the millennium. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:7-9.
Here at the end of the millennium all the wicked people who have ever lived will come forth in the second resurrection. After describing how the righteous would come to life and reign with Christ during the thousand years, John wrote, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5.
The rest of the dead, of course, had to be the wicked, and their resurrection will provide opportunity for Satan to take up his continuing battle against God and the saints. He goes out to gather the host of lost ones, who have been raised from the dead. He has people to deceive once more, and he convinces them that they can prevail against the New Jerusalem which has descended from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2). As they march up and encompass the city, the wicked are suddenly cut down by the devouring fire which rains upon them from heaven. This is the hell-fire which is the final punishment for sin.
Location of Hell
The Bible clearly asserts that this fire devours the wicked right here on "the breadth of the earth." Every Bible writer who speaks on the subject of hell adds new insight on this second death of the wicked. Peter states: "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7. Then he goes on to describe the day of the Lord which will melt the very elements with fervent heat.
The language of Peter is very explicit about the place of punishment for the ungodly. He says this earth is reserved for that fire which will bring judgment and perdition to the wicked. Their punishment will be in this earth. Isaiah declared, "For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch." Isaiah 34:8, 9.
The prophet portrays the entire planet enveloped in the destroying fire. Even the streams and dust are transformed into an exploding combustion of pitch and brimstone. Isaiah says this is God's vengeance and "recompense" at the end of the controversy.
David adds to the testimony with these words, "Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire, and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Psalm 11:6. Notice that he uses almost the same words as John and Peter in describing the fate of the wicked. All agree as to the place of the punishment (the earth) and the agent of punishment (fire).
This brings us to the third great fact about the subject of hell. Hell as a place of punishment will be this earth turned into a lake of fire at the Day of Judgment. But this also raises some other very interesting questions about the fate of the lost. One of the most intriguing and puzzling has to do with the length of punishment. HOW long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire?
No one can answer that question precisely because the Bible says they will be punished according to their works. This means there will be degrees of punishment. Some will suffer longer than others. But one thing we can say with certainty--the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity.
Hell-Fire Not Endless
There are several reasons for being so sure on this point. First of all, this earth is also declared to be the final home for the righteous. Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: For they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5. Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a new earth filled with righteousness. "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.
The wicked cannot continue to live in this planet because it has been specifically promised, in its entirety, to Abraham's spiritual seed (Romans 4:13). After being purged of all the curse of sin, it will revert to the first dominion, and to God's original plan for it. It will be finally what God intended it to be--a perfect home for a perfect people.
In the second place, the wicked cannot continue to live in this earth because they have never trusted Christ for eternal life. It is only the righteous who receive the gift of eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. ..." John 3:16. But what about those who don't believe in him? They surely will perish. The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. Please don't miss the pointed simplicity of these verses. The wicked are never promised life. They are promised death--eternal death. Only the righteous are promised life--eternal life.
But there is only one way to get life without end, and that is through faith in Jesus. John describes it this way: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11, 12. Let me ask you a question: Do those wicked ones in the lake of fire have the Son of God? Of course not. Then how could they have life? John says, "Ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15. Will those murderers in hell-fire continue to have life for eternity? Never.
It would be the rankest heresy to believe that eternal life could be obtained from some other source than Jesus. Where would the wicked get it? Paul declares that Jesus Christ "hash brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2 Timothy 1:10. Inspiration reveals no other source of immortality except through the gospel of Christ. Where is a text in the Bible which describes the conferring of immortality upon the wicked? You can read often about the righteous receiving it, but never the unbeliever.
Paul said, "Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
This text speaks of a certain point in time when the righteous will be instantly changed into immortal beings. That time is still future. It occurs when Jesus returns, at the last trumpet sound, when the resurrection takes place. Nowhere in the Bible do we read of the wicked being changed in this manner. And it is precisely because they never receive this gift of eternal life that they are unable to keep living in the lake of fire.
It is inconceivable and unreasonable to fabricate such an event. It is contrary to the Bible and repugnant to the senses. Ezekiel declared, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Ezekiel 18:4. No matter what we understand a soul to be, let's accept the simple Bible fact that it can die and will die as a result of sin.
If the wicked live eternally in the fire, then they have the same thing as the righteous except in a different place. Who could give them eternal life but Christ? John 3:16 settles this issue so clearly and simply. Those who do not believe in the only begotten Son will perish. They will die. They will die the second death--an eternal death from which they will never be raised. That death will never end. It is an endless, eternal punishment, because it is an endless, eternal death.
(Still continuted)
Unquenchable Fire
Someone may raise this question: What about the unquenchable fire that burns the wicked? Doesn't that mean it will never go out? Of course, it doesn't. To quench means to extinguish or put out. No one will be able to put out the fire of hell. That is the strange fire of God. No one will be able to escape from it by extinguishing it. Isaiah says of that fire, "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47.14. After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. No one can deliver themselves from its flame by putting it out, but finally not a coal will be left. So say the Scriptures.
Jeremiah prophesied that Jerusalem would burn with a fire that could not be quenched (Jeremiah 17:27), but it burned'} down to ashes (2 Chronicles 36:19-21). Read those verses and see how the Bible uses the word "quench." It does not mean fire that will never go out. It only means what it says, "unquenchable." It can't be quenched.
And what can we say about the expressions "eternal" and "everlasting" which are used to describe the fires of hell? There is absolutely no confusion or contradiction when we allow the Bible to supply its own definition of terms. Many make the mistake of applying modern definitions to those biblical words without reference to their ancient contextual usage. This violates one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation.
The fact is that eternal fire does not mean a fire that will never go out. The same expression is used in Jude 7 concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
It is quite obvious that Sodom is not still burning today. The Dead Sea rolls over the place where those ancient cities once stood. Yet they burned with "eternal fire," and we are told that it was an example of something. What is it an example of? "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.
There it is! That eternal fire which brought Sodom to ashes is an example of what will finally happen to the wicked. If this text is true, the same kind of fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. It will have to be eternal fire. Does that mean it will also burn the wicked to ashes? The Bible says Yes. "For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch ... And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1 3.
No words of any language could make it more forceful or clear. This eternal fire burns up eternally. Even Satan, the root, is finally consumed. HOW consistent the whole picture appears as we let the Bible explain its own terms. What devious manipulation of words would be required to evade the obvious meaning of these words. Yet those who have been prejudiced by a lifetime of tradition can read those words "burn them up ... they shall be ashes" and still insist that the wicked are alive and suffering.
Admittedly, there are some ambiguous verses on this subject, but we are finding that they all harmonize when the context is considered, and the Bible is allowed to be its own commentary.
Even Christ's words in Matthew 25:46 ,9 are not confusing when we take the obvious meaning. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Many are troubled over the expression, "everlasting punishment," but notice that it does not say "everlasting punishing." Whatever the punishment is, it will last eternally. Does the Bible tell us what the punishment is? Of course. "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. So Jesus was simply saying that the death would be everlasting. It would never end. It would never be broken by a resurrection.
Paul simplifies it further with these words: "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished ... " Now, listen, Paul is going to tell us what the punishment is. "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." 2 Thessalonians 1 8, 9 So the punishment is everlasting destruction--a destruction that is everlasting. From it there will be no resurrection or hope of life.
But what about that worm which dieth not? Many have read the words of Jesus about hell, "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." Mark .9:45, 46. Some have interpreted the worm to be the soul. Is that what Jesus meant? Nowhere in the Bible is there any allusion to the soul as a worm.
In this instance Jesus used the word "Gehenna" for the word "hell." It so happened that Gehenna was an actual place of burning just outside the walls of Jerusalem. No doubt, Christ's listeners could see the smoke curling up from the Valley of Gehenna, where dead bodies and garbage were constantly being burned. If anything fell outside the destructive flames, it was quickly consumed by maggots or worms. With the vivid scenes of utter extinction before their eyes, Jesus used the Gehenna fire as an example of the complete destruction of hell-fire. The fire was never quenched, and the worms were constantly at work upon the bodies--a picture of total destruction.
Perhaps the most easily misconstrued text about hell is John's allusion to the smoke ascending "for ever and ever." For those who are unfamiliar with other uses of this phrase in the Bible, it can be very confusing indeed. But a comparison of verses in both Old and New Testaments reveal that the words "for ever" are used 57 times in the Bible in reference to something that has already come to an end. In other words, "for ever" does not always mean "without end."
Many notable examples could be cited, but two or three are noteworthy. In Exodus 21, the conditions are laid down concerning the law of servitude. If a servant chose to continue serving the master he loved rather than his freedom when it came due, then his ear was to be pierced with an awl and the Scripture declares, "He shall serve him for ever." Verse 6. But how long would that servant serve his human master? Only as long as he lived, of course. So the words "for ever" did not mean without end.
Hannah took her son Samuel to God's temple, where he would "there abide for ever." 1 Samuel 1:22. Yet in verse 28 we are plainly told, "As long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." The original meaning of the term "for ever" indicates an indefinite period of time. Generally it defines the period of time in which something can continue to exist under the circumstances prevailing. Even Jonah's stay in the whale's belly is described by him as "for ever." Jonah 2:6.
Someone may object that this could also limit the life of the righteous in heaven, because they are described as glorifying God forever. The terms are the same for both the saved and the lost. But there is one tremendous difference in the circumstances involved. The saints have received the gift of immortality. Their life now measures with the life of God. Immortality means "not subject to death." The words "for ever" used in reference to them could only mean "without end," because they are immortal subjects already. But when "for ever" is used to describe the wicked, we are talking about mortal creatures who can die and must die. Their "for ever" is only as long as their mortal nature can survive in the fire which punishes them according to their works.
Soul and Body Destroyed
This brings us to the final fact concerning the fate of the wicked. After the unsaved are punished according to their sins, they will be wiped out of existence, both body and soul. Jesus states it very simply, "And fear not them which kill the body ... but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.
In the light of this statement, how can anyone continue to claim immortality for the wicked? Jesus, the only One who can bestow the gift of life, rejects the possibility that those in hell can continue to live in any form whatsoever. The life will be snuffed out for eternity, and the body will be annihilated in the flames.
The psalmist wrote: "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 37:20 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Verse l0.
The most powerful, definitive words in human language are used to describe the destruction in hell, but people still insist that the writers do not really mean what their words express. "Destroy," "consume," "burn up," "devour," "death"--do these words have some mysterious, opposite meaning in the Bible than they have in other books? We have no reason to think so. The fact is that theology has made an ogre out of our great God of love. He has been portrayed as more cruel than Hitler. Even though Hitler tortured people and experimented with them, finally he allowed them to die. But God will keep these deathless souls alive for the purpose of seeing them writhe and scream throughout eternity, so the theologians claim.
(One more page)
God's Justice Vindicated
Not only is such a picture misrepresentative of God's love, it also distorts His justice. Think for a moment about the implications of a doctrine that would consign every lost soul to an immediate, never-ending hell at the time of death. Suppose a man died 5,000 years ago with one cherished sin in his life. His soul would go instantly into the fire to be tormented for eternity. Then picture another death; that of Adolph Hitler, who supervised the deaths of millions of people. According to the popular doctrine, his soul also would immediately enter hell to suffer eternally. But the man who was lost because of only one sin, will burn 5,000 years longer than Hitler. How could that be just? Would God deal in such a manner? It would contradict the Bible statement that each one must be punished according to his works.
There are two extreme views in current circulation concerning the punishment of the wicked. One is Universalism, which contends that God is too good to allow anyone to be lost. The other is the awful doctrine of endless torment which would perpetuate for all eternity a dark abyss of anguish and suffering. Both are wrong. The truth lies in between. God will punish the wicked according to their works, but He will not immortalize evil in the process.
I truly believe that many honest souls have been turned away from God because of the* revulsion at this misrepresentation of His character. They can't love someone who would arbitrarily keep evil people in endless torment with no purpose in view. No rehabilitation is possible. Only a vindictive spirit of revenge could be served by such an unspeakable arrangement. Is God like that? After hearing the Bible truth about hell, a bank president threw his arms around my shoulders and said, "Joe, I'm a believer again. For years I've been an agnostic because I had been taught that God would torture the wicked eternally."
No More Pain or Death
Someday soon God will have a clean universe. All the effects of sin will be banished forever. There will be no sin, no sinners and no devil to tempt. It will be just exactly like God planned it in the beginning. John described that future home in these words, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.
Can you find any room in those precious words for any suffering on the part of anybody in the whole recreated universe? God said crying and pain would be no more. Do you believe His Word or do you choose to believe man's surmising? Just four verses before writing this promise, John described how the wicked would be cast into the lake of fire. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 20:15; 21:1.
That lake of fire is right here on planet earth according to Revelation 20:9. But please notice that this place where the wicked burn will pass away, and God will re-create the new earth in its stead. Then Revelation 21:2, 3 describe the New Jerusalem descending, and verse four says there will be no more sorrow, pain, crying, or death.
In order for no more pain to exist, there can be no eternal hell existing either. The two things are mutually exclusive of each other. We should thank God every day that His plan will finally bring an end to suffering. Satan will not be here to cause pain, and God promises that His new kingdom will not even contain a shadow of a pain.
Hell Not Intended for Us
Finally, we should rejoice that hell was never intended for you and me. Jesus said it was "prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41. If we stumble into that fire, it will be the most colossal blunder we could ever make. You would have to go there over the broken body of Jesus Christ and in spite of the Father's love, the Holy Spirit's pleading, and the heavenly influence of a million angels. The most unanswerable question in the whole world is this: "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" There is no answer because there is no escape except through Christ and His cross.
No one will be lost because he sinned, because everyone has sinned. No one will be left out of heaven because he lied, stole, or committed adultery. The only reason anyone will be lost is because he refuses to turn away from his sin into the arms of a loving Saviour who stands ready to pardon and cleanse from all unrighteousness. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.
mathmajors
03-05-04, 08:50 AM
Tim Wilson says, 'Get a house. Make car payments. That's all the hell one man can stand.'
QueenCityHillbilly
03-05-04, 11:17 AM
That explanation is long as hell.
damn all the damned are going to bessemer city
mathmajors
03-05-04, 12:31 PM
This thread is going to hell in a handbasket.
This thread is going to hell in a handbasket.
if it's perforated metal we can use it to roast coffee beans.
Chief Tony
03-05-04, 03:43 PM
damn all the damned are going to bessemer city
They'll have to change planes in Atlanta.
That explanation is long as hell.
:xyzthumbs True enough.
Still, this was intended as an attempt to explain something, not as a discussion starter. I often post things knowing that the discussion will be fun and enlightning. In this case, I was simply trying to show what I see is the best explanation of hell I've ever seen.
:xyzthumbs True enough.
Still, this was intended as an attempt to explain something, not as a discussion starter. I often post things knowing that the discussion will be fun and enlightning. In this case, I was simply trying to show what I see is the best explanation of hell I've ever seen.
Too bad you didn't give any credit to where you found it.
Too bad you didn't give any credit to where you found it.
www.amazingfacts.org
www.amazingfacts.org (http://www.amazingfacts.org/)
Thanks, I wanted to see if there were any more interesting items wherever you found it.
hasbeen99
03-08-04, 03:57 PM
They have accused Him of teaching that an immortal soul flies away from the body at death to either heaven or hell. This is not what Jesus taught at all. He never gave the least intimation that some disembodied soul separates from the body at the time of death. And surely He did not ever give the impression that the wicked suffer an eternal torment as soon as they die.
Disagree on the former, but agree on the latter. Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise." Later, in Revelation, Jesus told John that the dead would be judged after the believers had been taken first. He also said the saved would receive new bodies as part of the new heaven on earth that would be created after the final battle is won. Those two passages lead me to believe that believers will be taken up with Him to remain in heaven until Judgment Day. Non-believers, however, do not. There is no mention of anything happening to non-believers until Judgment Day itself.
hasbeen99
03-08-04, 04:07 PM
Now let's get a sample of what Jesus really taught on the subject of hell. "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell ..." Mark 9:43. These words of the Master prove beyond any shadow of doubt that it is the body which goes into the fire, and not some mystical soul. In Matthew 5:30 He spoke of the "whole body" being cast into hell. That means hands, feet, eyes, and all the other members of the physical body.
Disagree completely with the exposition of Mark 9:43. The central message Jesus was conveying was "Don't let your flesh override your spirit, and by doing so keep you out of heaven." The flesh is something every Christian must battle the whole of their life here on earth. If we continually give into it, the flesh will keep us separated from God.
Are we really to believe that our imperfect bodies and corrupted flesh will be welcome through the gates of heaven? I seriously doubt it.
hasbeen99
03-08-04, 04:09 PM
The first important fact about hell is this: The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished.
This, I agree with.
hasbeen99
03-08-04, 04:21 PM
Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28 29
How plain! Jesus said that both good and bad will come forth from their graves to receive either life or damnation. This proves that from the time of death until they come forth in the resurrection they are not receiving any recompense or punishment. It all happens after they come forth. They are reserved until that day just as Peter indicated, but Christ spelled out where they will be reserved--"in the graves."
Yes, but "good" doesn't necessarily equate to Christians. There are some good who will be saved through judgment (Romans 2). These are the "good" that Jesus is referring to here.
hasbeen99
03-08-04, 04:33 PM
It is inconceivable and unreasonable to fabricate such an event. It is contrary to the Bible and repugnant to the senses. Ezekiel declared, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
And by Mosaic Law, Ezekiel was correct. But through Jesus, the sinners are saved. Christians are separated from those who will be judged by the Law.
hasbeen99
03-08-04, 04:37 PM
Ezekiel 18:4. No matter what we understand a soul to be...
Now the author is backpedaling. Just a few paragraphs earlier, he described the soul as being "imaginary".
hasbeen99
03-08-04, 04:54 PM
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.
Can you find any room in those precious words for any suffering on the part of anybody in the whole recreated universe? God said crying and pain would be no more.
That's a good inferrence from that passage.
hasbeen99
03-08-04, 04:58 PM
No one will be lost because he sinned, because everyone has sinned. No one will be left out of heaven because he lied, stole, or committed adultery. The only reason anyone will be lost is because he refuses to turn away from his sin into the arms of a loving Saviour who stands ready to pardon and cleanse from all unrighteousness. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.
This is true for those who have been taught the Gospel, but not for everyone.
hasbeen99
03-08-04, 05:05 PM
Thanks for posting this, Turbo. It's taken me a while to get through it. :) There are some good points, some not so good. But the doctrines of heaven and hell are very confusing. The apocalyptic prophecy of Daniel and Revelation are anything but clear and concise.
Disagree on the former, but agree on the latter. Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Thanks for your responses. I always enjoy the ideas that you bring up. I want to take a look at a couple of them and share a response to your ideas.
In the case that you listed, Jesus did indeed tell the thief that he would be "with him" in paradise. This makes it seem that the thief would enter paradise that very same day.
However, we may be misunderstanding what Jesus actually said. In John 20 we find the story of Mary Magdalene coming face to face with the risen Jesus. Let me quote a small portion of their exchange:
16 Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father...."
Notice that Jesus, on that resurrection Sunday morning, told her that he had not yet returned to his Father. I'm assuming that Jesus' Father is in heaven. Thus, we can see that Jesus had, by Sunday morning, NOT yet gone to heaven. But, how can this be? Didn't he tell the thief, on Friday evening while they were hanging on their crosses, that they would be together in paradise? Didn't Jesus say that they would be together in paradise that very day?
We have two ways of looking at this seeming contradiction. Either Jesus lied to the thief on the cross by telling him that they would be together in paradise, yet in reality, Jesus did not rise to heaven until Sunday morning after he was seen by Mary Magdalene.
Or, we misunderstand what Jesus said to the thief on the cross. I choose the second option. I think that we have misunderstood Jesus' statement to the thief.
Here is what I think has happened. When the New Testament was written in Greek, its original language, there were no commas and no periods. There was no punctuation at all. The punctuation was added much later.
In this verse, the punctuation actually matters a lot. Look at these two sentences and notice the difference made by one little comma.
"Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
"Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
Did you notice that switching the comma from its position after the word "truth" to after the word "today" makes the whole verse read completely different?
By moving the comma to its position after the word "today", it makes the verse line up in complete agreement with what Jesus told Mary Magdalene on Sunday morning.
During the crucifixion, all he had done was promise that thief THAT day, that he would be in paradise. Not that he would in paradise that very same day. And so, that thief died knowing that he had received the promise that, one day, he would be in paradise with Jesus.
If we don't look at that verse in that perspective, we end up calling Jesus a liar. He did tell Mary Magdalene that he had not yet gone to see his Father in heaven. This was on Sunday morning. Obviously, if he really had been with the thief in paradise on Friday evening, why did Jesus tell Mary Magdalene that he hadn't gone to see his Father yet?
I think that the explanation I've given here gives the very best explanation and makes Jesus' statements to the thief and to Mary Magdalene in complete agreement.
Later, in Revelation, Jesus told John that the dead would be judged after the believers had been taken first. He also said the saved would receive new bodies as part of the new heaven on earth that would be created after the final battle is won. Those two passages lead me to believe that believers will be taken up with Him to remain in heaven until Judgment Day. Non-believers, however, do not. There is no mention of anything happening to non-believers until Judgment Day itself.
I'd like to see the verses that you mention here. I certainly don't remember any that portray these ideas.
Think about it logically. The Bible talks about a day of judgement that every person has to go through. There are several parables that place this judgement at the end of the world. In other words, EVERY person in this world receives their judgement at the same time. It wouldn't be fair to judge saved people first (and allow them to enjoy their reward in heaven) while the unsaved remain unjudged until much later.
I guess the questions are: when is Judgement Day? And who is judged on that day?
Disagree completely with the exposition of Mark 9:43. The central message Jesus was conveying was "Don't let your flesh override your spirit, and by doing so keep you out of heaven." The flesh is something every Christian must battle the whole of their life here on earth. If we continually give into it, the flesh will keep us separated from God.
Are we really to believe that our imperfect bodies and corrupted flesh will be welcome through the gates of heaven? I seriously doubt it.
What you say about the flesh is true. It is indeed the source of many temptations and struggles for humans. Yet, does that mean that God will do away with human physical forms? I don't think so.
The answer to your last question is no. God will not allow our imperfect bodies and corrupted flesh to go to heaven. God will actually transform and change our bodies so that they will be perfect and uncorrupted.
This is what I think Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 15. Here are a few verses from that chapter:
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Notice that Paul says we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye. What change will this be? He defines is as our bodies being changed into the imperishable and immortal.
Yet, how do we know that we will have human physical forms?
Earlier in chapter 15, Paul talks about the difference between the bodies we will have before the resurrection and the bodies we will have after the resurrection. Here are the verses:
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Paul describes our form after the resurrections as a body. He defines that body as imperishable, in glory, in power, and a spiritual body.
However, the best support for this idea is what Paul says in Philippians 3:20-21:
20 "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who, by the power that enables Him to bring everything under His control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His glorious body."
That last words in that verse say that our bodies will be like Jesus' glorious body. Thats an amazing verse! Paul is saying that our bodies after the resurrection will be like the very same body Jesus had after his resurrection.
What kind of body did Jesus have after his resurrection? Well, we know that he walked through walls. Yet, when he faced doubting Thomas, he asked Thomas to feel the scars of the nails and of the spear in his side. Later, he ate breakfast with the disciples on the shore of the Sea of Galilee.
Which leads me to believe that Jesus' body was not only a spirit (walking through walls) but also physical (could be felt and could digest food).
When the saved are taken to heaven, they will receive new bodies. It describes this as being changed in a twinkling of an eye. These bodies will be same as the body Jesus had after his resurrection. These bodies will be perfect and uncorrupted.
I'm looking forward to my new perfect body.
Yes, but "good" doesn't necessarily equate to Christians. There are some good who will be saved through judgment (Romans 2). These are the "good" that Jesus is referring to here.
I don't think you can make a case for having different judgements for several groups of people.
At the end, there will be only two groups of people in the world. Those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior (and thus will go to heaven) and those who have rejected Jesus (and thus will go to hell). There are no other groups of people.
This is supported by the parable of the wheat and tares as well as by the parable of the goats. There were only two distinct groups mentioned and each received their reward (judgement) at the same time.
Christians are separated from those who will be judged by the Law.
Actually, I think that everyone is judged by the law. How could God have a different "measuring stick" for different people? He would be accused of not judging equally.
The Bible says that we will be judged according to what we have done. Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will reward each person according to what he has done."
Paul supports this idea in this passage in 2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
The Old Testament certainly supports this idea as well: Ecclesiastes 12:14: "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil."
Finally, Revelation states that everything we do is written in a book in heaven. God refers to this book as he gives his judgements for each person. Revelation 20:12: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."
If God will judge us according to our actions, on what standard will he base his judgement? According to James, it is God's law: James 2:10-12, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For He who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, 'Do not murder.' If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom."
Does this mean that, since nobody can keep God's law perfectly, no one will be saved? Obviously not. This is where the good news of the gospel comes in. I John 2:1: "But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ the Righteous One."
The standard of our judgement will be our actions as compared to God's perfect law. On that standard, we ALL will be judged as sinful and we would ALL go to hell. The good news is that we have Jesus who lived the perfect life in our place. Thus, he takes our place and we receive, instead of death in hell, eternal life in heaven.
hasbeen99
03-11-04, 01:18 PM
By moving the comma to its position after the word "today", it makes the verse line up in complete agreement with what Jesus told Mary Magdalene on Sunday morning.
During the crucifixion, all he had done was promise that thief THAT day, that he would be in paradise. Not that he would in paradise that very same day. And so, that thief died knowing that he had received the promise that, one day, he would be in paradise with Jesus.
If we don't look at that verse in that perspective, we end up calling Jesus a liar. He did tell Mary Magdalene that he had not yet gone to see his Father in heaven. This was on Sunday morning. Obviously, if he really had been with the thief in paradise on Friday evening, why did Jesus tell Mary Magdalene that he hadn't gone to see his Father yet?
I've seen that argument (about the comma) before, and it does have some merit. I've not seen it combined with that interchange between Mary M. and Jesus, though, and it is compelling.
There are other factors in worthy of consideration, though. First, Jesus and the Father are one. Couldn't the spirit of the thief ascend into heaven to be with the Father while Jesus remained on the earth and His statement still be true?
Another possibility -- how long is a day to God? This adds vagueness to the promise Jesus made. The thief could have ascended with Jesus and still could be "today" on God's calendar, couldn't he?
There are two words in the promise Jesus gave that give me trouble -- "today" and "paradise".
You are correct that ancient Greek used no punctuation, and the second configuration could be the accurate version. However, that is the only time in recorded Scripture that He used that preamble to anything He said. Usually He said, "I tell you the truth...". What made that situation different?
Unless I'm mistaken, that's the only instance He used the term, "paradise" as well. What did He mean? Is Paradise heaven? Or is Paradise the new earth that He will establish after His return?
vpkozel
03-11-04, 01:28 PM
Another possibility -- how long is a day to God? This adds vagueness to the promise Jesus made. The thief could have ascended with Jesus and still could be "today" on God's calendar, couldn't he?
But Jesus was a man, so wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he was speaking of our days? The term day is used all through the resurection, and as far as I can tell it always refers to "earth days."
hasbeen99
03-11-04, 01:39 PM
I'd like to see the verses that you mention here. I certainly don't remember any that portray these ideas.
The first passage is in 1 Thessalonians, so my bad there:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (NIV)
"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
This passage is probably the best argument for the Rapture, and it states that the believers, both dead and alive, will be taken before the millenial reign. Then, after the millenial reign in Revelation 20:12-13...
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done."
This has to be the remainder of those who were not taken up with Him at the second coming. The book of life will list the saints who fell during the Tribulation. The other books will be witness to those others who fell but did not believe. Romans 2 states that those who do not know the Law will not be judged by it. They will be judged by their deeds, with their consciences bearing witness. This looks to me to be that judgment. If there was no hope for those not in the book of life, why would God bother to keep a record of their faults? Why not stop with the book of life?
hasbeen99
03-11-04, 01:51 PM
Think about it logically. The Bible talks about a day of judgement that every person has to go through. There are several parables that place this judgement at the end of the world. In other words, EVERY person in this world receives their judgement at the same time.
No. That is the point of salvation through the grace of Jesus Christ. The whole point is that He has already paid the penalty for our judgment. Those believers who are written in His book of life before His return escape judgment. That is the promise of the Rapture (1Thess 4). And Jesus alludes to this separation in the parables of the wheat and chaff, and the sheep and goats.
It wouldn't be fair to judge saved people first (and allow them to enjoy their reward in heaven) while the unsaved remain unjudged until much later.
What about grace is fair? Of course it's not fair, but it's not fair in our favor! That's why it's so incredible!
I guess the questions are: when is Judgement Day? And who is judged on that day?
According to Revelation 20, Judgment Day is at the end of Christ's millenial reign on earth.
hasbeen99
03-11-04, 01:56 PM
What you say about the flesh is true. It is indeed the source of many temptations and struggles for humans. Yet, does that mean that God will do away with human physical forms? I don't think so.
Nor do I. I apologize for being unclear. I meant that we will not enter heaven or dwell on the new earth with the flawed bodies we know today. We will follow the pattern of Jesus after His resurrection, because that's what the Bible says. Good find, Turbo. :)
I, too, am looking forward to my new body. But even more, I'm looking forward to those I know and love who suffer with physical ailments receiving theirs. Max Lucado wrote a book called, When Christ Comes on this subject, and when I read the part about receiving new flawless bodies, I wept with joy for my wife.
hasbeen99
03-11-04, 02:09 PM
I don't think you can make a case for having different judgements for several groups of people.
Romans 2:14-15 (NLT)
"Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right."
Earlier in the passage, Paul says the Jews will be judged by the law because they live under the law. But the Gentiles who don't know the law will be judged by their natural instincts of right and wrong, and how closely they followed them. That is two separate standards, as it must be to be just. How can one be judged (or even condemned) by a standard he's never known?
At the end, there will be only two groups of people in the world. Those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior (and thus will go to heaven) and those who have rejected Jesus (and thus will go to hell). There are no other groups of people.
At the end, yes. But there is much variation between now and the end. Much of that 'taking of sides' will be done during the Tribulation. Those left will either choose God or choose Satan. There will be almost no middle ground. Satan will actually see to that, ironically.
hasbeen99
03-11-04, 02:14 PM
Actually, I think that everyone is judged by the law. How could God have a different "measuring stick" for different people? He would be accused of not judging equally.
The Bible says that we will be judged according to what we have done. Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will reward each person according to what he has done."
Paul supports this idea in this passage in 2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
I think we're talking about two different judgments here. Judgment Day, or the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20 decides (after the pre-rapture believers have already been taken) who will spend eternity in heaven and who will spend eternity in hell. But believers will also be judged after they're saved by what they've done for the kingdom of heaven, as referenced best, IMO, in the parable of the talents. That is when our varying rewards are determined.
hasbeen99
03-11-04, 02:19 PM
But Jesus was a man, so wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he was speaking of our days? The term day is used all through the resurection, and as far as I can tell it always refers to "earth days."
When Thomas asked, "When do we get to see the Father", Jesus also said, "Don't you recognize Me?"
Jesus was both. He was God in human flesh. That's why I think the second possibility cannot be completely ruled out. Another example is that Jesus told His disciples on several occasions that "this generation" would not die before He came back. In our terms, a generation is about what, 20 years? Clearly He cannot have been speaking in our terms.
Miss tery
03-11-04, 06:02 PM
The following is an actual question given on University of Washington chemistry mid-term: "Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Support your answer with a proof."
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:
First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So, we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these
Religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.
Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added. This gives two possibilities.
(1) If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
(2) Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms.Therese Banyan during my Freshman year that "it will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account that fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then: (2) cannot be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic.
The student got the only A.
hasbeen99
03-11-04, 06:55 PM
:D :applause:
I've seen that argument (about the comma) before, and it does have some merit. I've not seen it combined with that interchange between Mary M. and Jesus, though, and it is compelling.
There are other factors in worthy of consideration, though. First, Jesus and the Father are one. Couldn't the spirit of the thief ascend into heaven to be with the Father while Jesus remained on the earth and His statement still be true?
Another possibility -- how long is a day to God? This adds vagueness to the promise Jesus made. The thief could have ascended with Jesus and still could be "today" on God's calendar, couldn't he?
There are two words in the promise Jesus gave that give me trouble -- "today" and "paradise".
You are correct that ancient Greek used no punctuation, and the second configuration could be the accurate version. However, that is the only time in recorded Scripture that He used that preamble to anything He said. Usually He said, "I tell you the truth...". What made that situation different?
Unless I'm mistaken, that's the only instance He used the term, "paradise" as well. What did He mean? Is Paradise heaven? Or is Paradise the new earth that He will establish after His return?
I applaud you for being to consider different alternatives than the norm on this issue.
I confess that what I see you doing is searching for some way to make Jesus' words agree with what you already believe.
You already believe that people's spirits go to heaven or hell when they die, so you try to make Jesus' words match up with that belief.
If you already believe that people either go to heaven or to hell when they die, then Jesus' words to the thief and to Mary Magdalene don't make sense. They don't agree with that belief. Therefore, you're left with trying to modify what Jesus said.
Did he mean a literal day when he said day? Did he mean a 24 hr period when he said day or could that be a time period of longer than 24 hrs? Did he mean heaven when he used paradise?
All of these are attempts to make Jesus' words agree with your earlier belief.
I think we should take Jesus at his words, his clear words. He promised the thief, on that day, that he would enter paradise. Basically, he was telling the thief that he would go to heaven one day. Judging from Jesus' words to Mary M. Jesus himself had not been to heaven yet, therefore, the day that the thief would enter heaven would one day in the future.
If this is true (and I could be completely wrong in my understanding), that puts the belief that people go to heaven or hell immediately following their deaths into jeopardy. It means that people who die (whether they're going to heaven or hell) are "reserved" in their graves until the 2nd coming of Christ.
There are many other texts, which I'll use at a later time, which point towards that second conclusion.
The first passage is in 1 Thessalonians, so my bad there:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (NIV)
"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
This passage is probably the best argument for the Rapture, and it states that the believers, both dead and alive, will be taken before the millenial reign.
For some reason, I don't see Paul talking about the Rapture in 1 Thess. 4:13-17. Here are some reasons why:
1. First, in this section Paul is talking about death. He says, in verse 13, that he doesn't want people "to be ignorant about those who fall asleep." What does this mean? By the rest of that sentence, "or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope," we realize that he is talking about people who die.
(I won't get into this much, however, the refers to death many many times as a sleep. This is a real key about what death really is.)
Paul was facing questions from the Christians who lived in Thessalonica about what happened to people when they died. In this passage, he seeks to anwer those questions.
2. Paul then shares what God has inspired him regarding what happens to people whey they die. Verse 14 states: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."
Paul says that Jesus died and rose again. So he says that in the same way, God will treat people who have "fallen asleep in him" (which is the Bible's way of saying they've died) in the same way that Jesus was treated. Jesus died. Then he rose again. People who die in Christ will die, then rise again.
3. Paul then describes how this process will take place. Verses 15-17 describes this process.
People who have died (in the Lord) will be in their graves (or else, how can they rise first?). They hear the "loud command", the "voice of the archangel" and "the trumpet call of God" and they rise to life again.
Those who are alive at that time will rise together with those who have just risen to life from their graves, and together, they will rise in the air until they meet Jesus.
4. From that time forward, they will be with the Lord forever.
Notice, however, the description given in verse 16 of Jesus' second coming. He will give a loud command, there will be the voice of the archangel along with the trumpet call of God. This does not seem to be a secret even, like that described by the Rapture. This seems to be an event that is seen and heard by many people.
5. Paul ends by stating that this truth is to bring encouragement to Christians (verse 18).
In my next post, I'll talk about what Jesus' second coming will be like, according to the Bible.
Here are just a few observations about the second coming of Jesus.
The word rapture does not appear in the Bible but is a term frequently used to mean the Second Coming of Jesus. Let's first begin by looking at some Bible texts:
1. John 14:1-3. Jesus promised He would return.
2. Acts 1:9-11. Angels confirmed His promise and testified to its truthfulness.
3. Revelation 1:7. When Jesus returns every eye shall see Him. This is important because it indicates that it will not be a secret event.
4. Matthew 24:27. His return shall be like lightning flashing across the sky. Again, how can it be a secret even if His return is flashed across the sky like ligthning?
5. I Thessalonians 4:16-17. It will be an audible event. The righteous dead will be resurrected and along with the righteous living caught up in the sky.
6. I Corinthians 15:51-54. God will clothe His people with immortality.
7. Matthew 16:27. His return shall be a glorious event. He comes with His
reward.
8. Revelation 6:14-17. The unrighteous wicked fear His coming and cry for the rocks to fall upon them.
9. Matthew 13:37-43. The evil are purged out of His kingdom by fire and the righteous saved through all eternity.
10. Isaiah 25:9. The righteous are delighted to see Him come. They joyfully exclaim “Lo, this is our God…”
11. Revelation 19:11-16. As King of Kings leading the armies of heaven, He returns as triumphant Lord.
12. Titus 2:13. His coming is called the “Blessed Hope” of a lost mankind.
13. Revelation 22:11-12; 17-20. Jesus' final invitation to prepare for His soon return.
When taken completely, the Bible does not picture the second coming of Jesus as a secret rapture. It pictures Jesus as coming in glory, accompanied by multitudes of angels. Jesus' glory will be like lightning flashing across the sky. It will be a visual event as well as an audible event.
My questions are these: why would Jesus go through all that trouble if, all along, Christians would be going to heaven the moment they died? Why would Jesus need to go through a special event like the second coming if he's already insitituted a way for his followers to go to heaven when they died?
Also, why would Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise from their graves if they're already in heaven with God? It doesn't make sense that God's people would go to heaven immediately after death, and yet, Jesus go through all the trouble of coming to this planet to retrieve his followers. One could think that if Jesus were patient, his people would get to heaven at the end of their lives. What would be the point of his coming back to retrieve them?
I'm sure that you have questions. Isn't Jesus coming secretly? Doesn't the Bible say, “There will be two in the field, one taken and one left” in Matthew 24:40?
The Bible makes it abundantly plain that Jesus' coming is not a secret event (Revelation 1:7; Psalm 50:3; I Thessalonians 4:16-17; Matthew 24:27). When the Bible speaks of those being left, it does not say they will be left alive on earth. The extended passage in Luke 17:26-37 describes the event in detail.
In Noah's day there were two classes, “one taken (saved), one left (destroyed by the flood)(verse 27). In Lot's day there were two classes, (one taken out of the city and saved, one left in the city and consumed by the fire). It will be similar when Jesus comes (Luke 17:30-37). One class will be taken to heaven with Jesus and the other class will be destroyed.
In Luke 17:37, the question is raised, “Where, Lord? Where are these people left.” The Bible answer is plain, “Whithersoever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.” Revelation 19:11-18 clarifies the point that the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes, (see also 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9,2:8).
But, doesn't the Bible teach Jesus is coming as a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:2)?
Each Bible reference to Jesus coming as a thief, is in reference to the unexpected time of Jesus' coming, not the manner of His coming.
He comes quickly as a thief, unexpectedly as a thief, but in glorious splendor as lightning in triumphant glory (see Matthew 24:42-44, I Thessalonians 5:1-5, Matthew 24:27).
Do God's people live through the coming tribulation or are they raptured before the tribulation?
The experiences of ancient Israel were examples given by God for His people living at the close of time. Just as Israel was delivered from Egyptian bondage after the plagues, so God's church will be protected through the plagues and be delivered from the hand of the oppressor (I Corinthians 10:11; Psalm 91; 46).
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego entered the flames when they refused to yield to the universal death decree of Babylon's King. In those flames God miraculously delivered them. Their death-defying faith faced the flames (Daniel 3:16-28). He comes as a thief after the plagues (Revelation 16:15).
What sense would it make to declare “Behold I come as a thief after six plagues are already poured out” if He had already come as a thief before they were poured out? Revelation 15:8 emphatically declares “No man can enter the (heavenly) Temple until the plagues are completed.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 makes it plain that the anti-christ is revealed before Jesus comes and is destroyed by the brightness of His coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8).
I know I've written a lot. Sorry about that :)
To summarize, I don't believe the Bible teaches that God will retrieve his followers to heaven using a process called the rapture. I believe that God will retrieve his followers using the process called the second coming. At that time, ALL believers, those who've died in ages past as well as believers who are still alive, will go to be with the Lord forever.
Edit: I'm leaving for my brother's wedding this weekend. I'll be glad to continue our discussion when I get back. I'm enjoying this. Eric, you challenge me (in very good ways) to examine what I believe and why I believe it. This is good and I'm enjoying our discussion.
hasbeen99
03-12-04, 12:33 PM
I confess that what I see you doing is searching for some way to make Jesus' words agree with what you already believe. You already believe that people's spirits go to heaven or hell when they die, so you try to make Jesus' words match up with that belief.
Forgive me if that's the way I'm coming across. That is not my intention. I did a study on this issue a few years ago with a wide open mind, honestly because I did not know what happened when people die. After reading through every relevant passage I could find, I found the most likely (but not certain) conclusion was that the saved probably are taken to heaven, while the unsaved remain until Judgment Day. But even if the spirits of the saints are not swept up to heaven the instant the body dies, they are surely (according to 1Thess) called to heaven by Jesus Himself at the second coming.
hasbeen99
03-12-04, 01:17 PM
If you already believe that people either go to heaven or to hell when they die, then Jesus' words to the thief and to Mary Magdalene don't make sense. They don't agree with that belief. Therefore, you're left with trying to modify what Jesus said.
Did he mean a literal day when he said day? Did he mean a 24 hr period when he said day or could that be a time period of longer than 24 hrs? Did he mean heaven when he used paradise?
All of these are attempts to make Jesus' words agree with your earlier belief.
I think we should take Jesus at his words, his clear words.
Turbo, I've looked at 6 different translations of Luke 23:43, and they all have the comma in the same place -- indicating that the thief would not be waiting until His return. I've also read a commentary that agrees with that position.
The problem is, Jesus' words (as translated into modern English) seem to contradict one another, as you've pointed out. If we rule out the possibility that Jesus made the thief a promise He could not keep (He knew He'd be in the tomb for 3 days), then I see basically three options:
1) When Jesus said "me" on the cross, He included the entire Trinity. Therefore, the thief could have risen to be with the Father. Jesus message to Thomas Didymus saying He and the Father were one supports this possibility. This scenario would also maintain the validity of Jesus' encounter with Mary M. in John 20 that you cited.
2) Jesus defined "day" on His terms, not necessarily ours. In this case, perhaps the thief did ascend with Him several weeks after His resurrection.
3) The comma in the English translations is misplaced. This would support the notion that "me" is Jesus alone, and that the integrity of Jesus' dialogue with Mary in John 20 remains intact. However, for this to be true, every English translation of the Bible I know of has got it wrong.
I think any one of the three is possible. I just think option 1 is most likely.
And for the record, if the translations are correct, the thief is the only one who's promised to go to heaven the day he dies. To assert that same promise applies universally to believers is an assumption, not a direct promise. I don't think I ever said that all believers definitely go to heaven the instant they die. If I did, I misspoke and I apologize.
But even if the spirits of the saints are not swept up to heaven the instant the body dies, they are surely (according to 1Thess) called to heaven by Jesus Himself at the second coming.
Does this hold true even after signing with the panthers?
hasbeen99
03-12-04, 01:30 PM
He promised the thief, on that day, that he would enter paradise. Basically, he was telling the thief that he would go to heaven one day. Judging from Jesus' words to Mary M. Jesus himself had not been to heaven yet, therefore, the day that the thief would enter heaven would one day in the future.
If Jesus was only Himself, yes. But Jesus and the Father are one, and the Father remains in heaven. The argument then would be, why then didn't He tell the thief, 'Today you will be with my Father in heaven.'? Either way, it's a pickle.
If this is true (and I could be completely wrong in my understanding), that puts the belief that people go to heaven or hell immediately following their deaths into jeopardy. It means that people who die (whether they're going to heaven or hell) are "reserved" in their graves until the 2nd coming of Christ.
The passage I quoted from Revelation denounces any possibility that people destined for hell go anywhere before Judgment Day at the end of the millenial reign. The passage in 1Thess 4 indicates that at least some of the believers will ascend into heaven at the second coming. Those passages are pretty clear, I think. But is it really out of the realm of possibility that God might accept a few special people early? Elijah was caught up to heaven early. Scripture also indicates Moses did, too. (I believe Jesus talks to both on the Mount of Transfiguration). Why not the thief who, while being crucified, declares the innocence of Jesus and asks Him for mercy and forgiveness?
hasbeen99
03-12-04, 01:56 PM
1. First, in this section Paul is talking about death.
2. People who die in Christ will die, then rise again.
Agreed, but why would that be contrary to the Rapture of the church?
3. Paul then describes how this process will take place. Verses 15-17 describes this process.
People who have died (in the Lord) will be in their graves (or else, how can they rise first?). They hear the "loud command", the "voice of the archangel" and "the trumpet call of God" and they rise to life again.
Those who are alive at that time will rise together with those who have just risen to life from their graves, and together, they will rise in the air until they meet Jesus.
4. From that time forward, they will be with the Lord forever.
Agreed.
Notice, however, the description given in verse 16 of Jesus' second coming. He will give a loud command, there will be the voice of the archangel along with the trumpet call of God. This does not seem to be a secret event, like that described by the Rapture. This seems to be an event that is seen and heard by many people.
Ahh. Okay. The description Jesus gives of His return is "like a thief in the night", which doesn't mean silent, necessarily. It just means that it'll be without warning, i.e. no predicted date and time. And the description given there (I think) is also "in an instant". Therefore it could conceivably happen so fast that all the believers are gone before anyone else knows what happened.
hasbeen99
03-12-04, 02:14 PM
Here are just a few observations about the second coming of Jesus.
The word rapture does not appear in the Bible but is a term frequently used to mean the Second Coming of Jesus.
More accurately, it's used to describe what happens in 1Thess 4 -- the gathering of the church by Jesus "into the air".
3. Revelation 1:7. When Jesus returns every eye shall see Him. This is important because it indicates that it will not be a secret event.
Yes, but the indication is that He appears after the church is raptured. Passages in Revelations speak of the saints who have gone before returning with Him.
4. Matthew 24:27. His return shall be like lightning flashing across the sky. Again, how can it be a secret even if His return is flashed across the sky like ligthning?
That could be when He actually returns to earth, or when He raptures the church. I would lean toward the former rather than the latter. But in either case, "secret" doesn't necessarily mean "silent". 'Surprise' is a much better word, IMO.
7. Matthew 16:27. His return shall be a glorious event. He comes with His reward.
That is when He assumes His reign over the planet. Yes, it will be a glorious event, and probably coincides with the descent of the New Jerusalem.
8. Revelation 6:14-17. The unrighteous wicked fear His coming and cry for the rocks to fall upon them.
When those who are left standing against Him realize they've chosen the wrong side, they will be terror stricken. How could they not be? It's not like He's returning as a humble carpenter from Nazareth.
9. Matthew 13:37-43. The evil are purged out of His kingdom by fire and the righteous saved through all eternity.
That is the event that signals the end of the millenial reign and the beginning of Judgment Day.
When taken completely, the Bible does not picture the second coming of Jesus as a secret rapture. It pictures Jesus as coming in glory, accompanied by multitudes of angels. Jesus' glory will be like lightning flashing across the sky. It will be a visual event as well as an audible event.
Yes, and the rapture will be the introduction to that glorious return.
hasbeen99
03-12-04, 02:32 PM
My questions are these: why would Jesus go through all that trouble if, all along, Christians would be going to heaven the moment they died? Why would Jesus need to go through a special event like the second coming if he's already insitituted a way for his followers to go to heaven when they died?
That's a good question, and speaks strongly to the point I made earlier about at least some believers lying in wait until the second coming. The more I think about this, the more I'm starting to think that the thief was another 'exception to the rule' like Moses and Elijah, and most saints must wait to join Him until the rapture.
But, doesn't the Bible teach Jesus is coming as a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:2)? Each Bible reference to Jesus coming as a thief, is in reference to the unexpected time of Jesus' coming, not the manner of His coming.
He comes quickly as a thief, unexpectedly as a thief, but in glorious splendor as lightning in triumphant glory (see Matthew 24:42-44, I Thessalonians 5:1-5, Matthew 24:27).
My point! :D
Do God's people live through the coming tribulation or are they raptured before the tribulation?
The experiences of ancient Israel were examples given by God for His people living at the close of time. Just as Israel was delivered from Egyptian bondage after the plagues, so God's church will be protected through the plagues and be delivered from the hand of the oppressor (I Corinthians 10:11; Psalm 91; 46).
An interesting parallel I've not seen before. I agree -- a precedent has been set.
What sense would it make to declare “Behold I come as a thief after six plagues are already poured out” if He had already come as a thief before they were poured out? Revelation 15:8 emphatically declares “No man can enter the (heavenly) Temple until the plagues are completed.
This is why trying to understand end times prophecy is so difficult. I've found a handful of passages that point in one direction, then one pops up that points the other. Yet neither can be disregarded.
I know I've written a lot. Sorry about that :)
No worries, Turbo. :) End times study is a big can of worms, isn't it?
Edit: I'm leaving for my brother's wedding this weekend. I'll be glad to continue our discussion when I get back. I'm enjoying this. Eric, you challenge me (in very good ways) to examine what I believe and why I believe it. This is good and I'm enjoying our discussion.
As do you for me, Dave. Congrats to your brother and SIL, and I'll be looking forward to your responses next week. :)
Thanks Hasbeen. It was a good time this weekend with family and all. :)
As to our discussion, I guess its strayed from a discussion on hell and what happens when we die to the rapture. However, they are related so I have no problem with this. Besides, its a good discussion (even if no one else is enjoying it).
Let me share what I know about the doctrine of the rapture and its history.
During the 15th and 16th centuries, the church that was so dominate during the middle ages was shaken to its very core by powerful protests of reformers from within its own ranks–John Hus, John Zwingly, Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc. Appalled by the corruption in both theology and practice that had developed within the church through the centuries, these reformers boldly identified the church itself as the antichrist and beast power predicted in the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation 13.
Reeling from these serious and credible challenges to its theology and practices, the church convened the Council of Trent in the mid 1500's. This council explored new methodologies to counter the debilitating challenges of the Reformers which were undermining the church's credibility and authority in the public domain.
A major component of this "counter-reformation" was the publication of a commentary on the book of Revelation in 1690 by a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera. He proposed a method of interpretation called futurism. According to this view, the great prophecies of Daniel and Revelation did not apply to the Christian church through the ages, but were focused on the final seven years of history. In other words, the Bible's warning about the antichrist could not possibly apply to the church, but rather predicted the appearance of a lone and powerful evil person who would rule during earth's final years.
This strategy of the counter-reformation worked. In less than 300 years from Ribera's formulation of this view, futurism found a new home within Protestantism itself.
John Nelson Darby, a 19th century Irish lawyer turned Anglican preacher, developed a method of biblical interpretation called dispensationalism in which he incorporated Ribera's futuristic views. Darby became "the father of the rapture doctrine." He was the first to develop a full-blown theology that incorporated the teaching that Jesus would return secretly (His "second" coming) to rapture His true followers, leaving the rest behind to be ruled by an evil antichrist for seven years, and then return again (His "third" coming) in a visible, glorious coming to destroy antichrist, save those who were converted during the seven-year tribulation, and establish His own kingdom.
Cyrus Scofield, a disciple of Darby's, later published a Bible with explanatory notes in which he incorporated Darby's views on the rapture. The Scofield Bible is still the most popular Bible sold today.
In this way the rapture theory made its way into the psyche and formal teaching of much of the Christian world.
Five key Bible texts used to support the rapture theory:
1. John 14:1-3 - Jesus promised His followers, "I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." This statement is used by supporters of the rapture to describe the "second" or "secret" coming of Christ referred to here when He will take His followers to heaven with Him, as distinguished from His "third" or "visible" coming after the seven-year tribulation to live on the earth during the millennium.
2. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 - Paul says that when Jesus returns, the dead will be resurrected and together with the living righteous will be "caught up" (translated raptus in Latin translations and from which comes our English term, "rapture") in the clouds to be with Jesus.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 - When Jesus returns, His followers are changed from being mortal to immortal "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." Believers in the rapture theory see in this text a reference to the rapidity with which they will be transported from earth to be with Jesus in heaven, making it appear to the left-behind unbelievers that they have mysteriously disappeared.
4. Matthew 24:36-42 - Jesus says that when He returns, "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left." This language is used to support the "secret" coming of Jesus that raptures some from the earth and leaves others behind to go on living here, hence the title of the book, Left Behind.
5. Daniel 9:27 - Concluding a major Bible prophecy covering 490 years, this verse prophesies that during the last seven years of the 490 years someone referred to as "he" will confirm a covenant with many, and that half way into that seven-year period he will bring sacrifices to an end, and that all this is connected in some way to "one who makes desolate" and causes "abominations." This language, which seems very confusing until it is studied in some depth, is used to support the idea that the antichrist will rule the earth during seven years of desolation, making a covenant with the Jews and then destroying their system of worship.
Ok, I think I've covered it well (??). In my next post, I'll answer why I think this view is incorrect (just my opinion, nothing else).
I forgot to write what the general doctrine of the rapture is, so that we at least know what it is we are discussing.
The Rapture Theory
While those who believe in the rapture theory differ with one another on some essential points, the mainstream views of this teaching are as follows:
1. Jesus will return to earth secretly and take to heaven all genuine Christians, leaving everyone else on earth for another seven years.
2. During those the next seven years (the "seven-year tribulation"):
a. With all the Christians now gone, an evil antichrist will rule during this period of war, desolation and tribulation
b. Early in this period the antichrist will make a treaty with the Jews, enabling them to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and to reestablish their ancient liturgical system of animal-sacrifices.
c. Three and a half years into the seven-year period, the antichrist will turn against the Jews, desecrate their temple, and destroy the system of animal sacrifices that had been reestablished in the rebuilt temple at Jerusalem, thus initiating the Great Tribulation that will occur during the last three and a half years.
d. All the as-yet-unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible concerning the Jews will be literally fulfilled during this seven years, including the conversion of many Jews to Messiah Jesus.
e. Many non-Jews, startled into spiritual earnestness by being left behind from the rapture, will also be converted to Jesus as the true Messiah, their personal Savior.
3. At the end of the seven-year period, Jesus will return visibly and gloriously in the clouds of heaven to judge the earth. He will save those who were converted to Him during the seven-year interim between His two returns, and assign to hell all who were not.
Ok. Now I think I've got it all down. Have I missed anything?
Later this afternoon I'll give you my reasons why I don't think the Bible teaches this doctrine.
hasbeen99
03-17-04, 01:57 PM
That sequence of events is the model for the Left Behind series. As far as what I personally believe, I just don't know. The prophecy is too vague for me as of right now. When I researched the end times 2 years ago for an essay I wrote, I found evidence in the Scriptures for pre-, mid-, and post-tribulation Rapture of the church. I even asked a couple of my pastors about it, and both of them said they weren't sure.
1Thess 4 speaks loudest to me in favor of pre-tribulation rapture of the church, but at the same time, I cannot discount other verses that seem to say otherwise. (Just because I haven't figured out a way for them to be reconciled yet doesn't mean they can't be.) For the record, if Jesus raptures His church before the tribulation, fine -- I'm ready to go when He is. If we have to wait until the end of the tribulation, I'll deal with that, too (if I'm still around). I don't know how it will happen, but that's okay by me. I personally think the prophecy is intentionally vague and confusing because it seems clear to me God wants us ready at any moment. That's the way He wants us to live. I believe that if we did have warning, we'd live anyway we wished until we knew it was getting close.
I'm looking forward to seeing your response. :)
Turbo, I've looked at 6 different translations of Luke 23:43, and they all have the comma in the same place -- indicating that the thief would not be waiting until His return. I've also read a commentary that agrees with that position.
The problem is, Jesus' words (as translated into modern English) seem to contradict one another, as you've pointed out. If we rule out the possibility that Jesus made the thief a promise He could not keep (He knew He'd be in the tomb for 3 days), then I see basically three options:
1) When Jesus said "me" on the cross, He included the entire Trinity. Therefore, the thief could have risen to be with the Father. Jesus message to Thomas Didymus saying He and the Father were one supports this possibility. This scenario would also maintain the validity of Jesus' encounter with Mary M. in John 20 that you cited.
2) Jesus defined "day" on His terms, not necessarily ours. In this case, perhaps the thief did ascend with Him several weeks after His resurrection.
3) The comma in the English translations is misplaced. This would support the notion that "me" is Jesus alone, and that the integrity of Jesus' dialogue with Mary in John 20 remains intact. However, for this to be true, every English translation of the Bible I know of has got it wrong.
I think any one of the three is possible. I just think option 1 is most likely.
I think that once one accepts that Jesus wasn't speaking in symbols when he spoke to either the thief on the cross or Mary Magdalene, then option number three becomes the most likely.
Obviously, Jesus spoke symbolically ("Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19). However, I believe that in this instance, Jesus was giving that thief a promise that would encourage him through his crucifixion. Giving him what would be a symbolic promise wouldn't have encouraged the thief as much as one that was literal.
Another thought is that we need to recognize that the original language was in Greek (I know you know this). Therefore, when it was translated into English for the first time, it was translated with commonly held beliefs in mind. What I'm saying is that the first English versions translated it wrongly and all the other versions have followed because of the same belief.
Think about it. Here is the sentence without the comma:
"Jesus answered him 'I tell you the truth today you will be with me in paradise.'"
Now, if one believes that people go to their eternal destiny the moment they die, you will punctuate that sentence accordingly.
Its as simple as that. I'm not suggesting that all English versions are in a conspiracy to promote a certain doctrine. I'm suggesting that the first English version reflected the belief that people go to their eternal destiny when they die.
Here are some reasons why I don't believe the Bible teaches the doctrine of the rapture.
First, the second coming of Jesus is referred to over 1500 times in the Bible, and in an average of one verse in every 21 in the New Testament alone. In none of these passages does the Bible refer to Jesus' second coming as an event that happens in secret. The Bible DOES say that it will happen unexpectedly but never in secret.
In fact, Jesus warns the disciples about claims that Jesus has returned in secret. Matthew 24:26, 27: "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
The point here is that nowhere in the Bible is Jesus' coming referred to as an event that happens in secret.
Another reason why I don't believe the Bible teaches is that simply, this is the only chance we have at eternal life with God.
The Bible is more than just a collection of stories, prophecies, hymns, poems and religious history. The Bible is first and foremost an invitation, an appeal. To read the Bible is to be immediately confronted with the way of life and the way of death. You are invited, urged to choose God and participate in His plan for your life, and warned that to do otherwise is to leave you unprotected from the ultimate consequences of sin–an eternal death from which there will be no return.
Even more, the Bible presents making this choice as not only important, but urgent. (Hebrews 3:15; 2 Corinthians 6:2) Delay is never advocated, and procrastination is portrayed as dangerous and tantamount to disaster. By the time a person dies, their decision will have been irrevocably made for or against God–there is no second chance after death. (Hebrews 9:27) Before Jesus returns at His second coming every person still living will have made their decision irrevocably for or against God–there will be no second chance after Jesus returns. (Revelation 22:11,12) About that the Bible is unmistakably clear.
Unfortunately, the doctrine of the rapture completely misses this. It describes Jesus second coming as a secret coming whereby he catches away all those who are ready for Him at the time, leaving behind billions of others to live through a seven-year tribulation during which they will have a second chance to get ready for His third coming.
That's why the rapture doctrine is so dangerous. Not simply because it teaches that Jesus' second coming will be secret (when the Bible is silent on that). But even more so because billions of people who rely on the rapture doctrine may be counting on a second chance to turn to God, a second chance that doesn't exist! True, during this life God provides us with many chances. But once Jesus returns, it's over. The parable of the wheat/tares and the goat/sheep is clear on this.
One of the foundations for the rapture doctrine is the prophecy found in Daniel 9:24-27. Daniel 9:27 is the last part of the Bible's most compelling prophecy which foretold the exact year of Jesus' baptism and death, and even revealed the meaning of His death–500 years before He was even born. Sir Isaac Newton referred to this prophecy as "the foundation stone of the Christian religion."
To summarize, proponents of the rapture doctrine have taken the last time sequence of this prophecy, removed it from where they say the first part is fulfilled, and moved it to the end. This time sequence is what they call the 7 years of tribulation.
However, it doesn't make sense to say that the first part of this prophecy is fulfilled in a certain moment, then the last part pulled away and said to be fulfilled at a later date. The prophecy itself doesn't lend itself to that interpretation. All the time sequence of that prophecy is fulfilled at the same time. It is a whole, a time sequence that is fulfilled in its entirety at the same time. That makes sense to me. (I can give a lot more on this, but don't want to use up this space for that).
The last reason why I don't see the Bible teaching the doctrine of the rapture is that there is no distinction between the Jews and Christians in God's eyes. He will not treat them differently. To see this, we need to have a correct understanding of the history and role of the Jews.
Because of the lack of space, the rest is on the next post.
A good understanding of the Jews and their place in God's plan begins with a single word – conditional.
When you were a child did your parents ever say to you something along this line,"if you don't stop fighting with your brother, then you'll have to go to your room and be by yourself, but if you two get along, then we'll take you to the beach." Whether or not they said it exactly like that, you get the point. Most of us are acquainted in one way or another with the "if...then" formula. In other words, the consequences we receive will depend on the choices we make and the actions we take.
Well, from the very beginning that's the way God has related to man. The "if...then" formula was established in the Garden of Eden story–"if you eat the forbidden fruit, then you will die; if you obey, then you will live. Don't misunderstand, God's love for man was never conditional. But then that's just the point–because God's love for us is unconditional, His promises and warnings are always conditional. The "if...then" formula is ingrained in Scripture. It characterizes the entirety of God's relationship with man as well as every prophecy He ever gave about any nation, including Israel. (Jeremiah 18:7-11)
Now note the application. God told Israel that if they would obey Him, then they would remain His chosen people, "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." (Exodus 19:3-6) The subsequent history of Israel's relationship with God, however, followed a very repetitive pattern–they disobeyed God, God grievingly gave them up to their enemies and they suffered, they repented of their sin, God delivered them from their enemies and prospered them, they disobeyed God, and so on, over and over again throughout their history, right up to their overthrow and captivity in Babylon in the sixth century B.C.. Nehemiah 9 It's a record of Israel's unfaithfulness contrasted with God's patience and mercy, and a classic demonstration of the "if...then" formula.
Enter the greatest prophecy of them all: Daniel 9:24-27. God granted Israel 490 years to return to Jerusalem, rebuild their city and temple, and prepare for the coming of the Messiah. When the Messiah came, He would "make reconciliation for iniquity" and "bring in everlasting righteousness." In other words, the Messiah would make eternal salvation available to them. God even specified the exact time of the Messiah's baptism and death, so they could recognize Him for sure when He came. And sure enough, it all took place right on schedule, just as prophesied–Jesus was baptized in 27 A.D., exactly as the prophecy said. Only when He came, His own nation of Israel rejected Him, even crucified Him. Ironically, they crucified Him in the exact year it was prophesied He would die–31 A.D.!
The prophecy also foretold that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that God would rescind the Jewish nation's role as His chosen, missionary people. (Daniel 9:26,27) This part of the prophecy might never have been fulfilled, due to the "if...then" formula that applies to every prophecy God makes concerning a nation. (Jeremiah 18:7-11) If they had accepted Jesus and followed Him, then Jerusalem might never have been destroyed. But they not only rejected Jesus outright and then crucified Him, but they also began killing the prophets Jesus subsequently sent to offer them forgiveness for having done the unthinkable. (Acts 7:57;-8:1) By killing the prophets who were making a last appeal to them, Israel as much as said: "So, God, what is it about our decision to be completely and forever disassociated from that Jesus of Nazareth that You don't understand?!" Finally, grievingly, God accepted their decision and turned to the Gentiles to carry His gospel of salvation to the world.
Jesus wept over Jerusalem. (Luke 19:41-44) He agonized that they had spurned every divine overture and rejected every prophet God had sent to them, including Himself, God's own Son. (Matthew 23:37) True to the divine "if...then" formula, Jesus announced to the Jews that their temple would thereafter be desolate of the divine presence. (Matthew 23:38,39) Furthermore, He sorrowfully told them, "The kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it." (Matthew 21:31-43) This verse is monumental to understanding this. Jesus is here transfering the title of God's kingdom away from the Jews and giving it to Christianity.
From that time forward, national Israel no longer figures into Bible prophecy. And this fact of Bible truth lays the ax to the pillar of the rapture theory. God created a new "Israel" out of people from all races and cultures who put their faith in Jesus and His sacrifice for them. Galatians 6:14-16 The New Testament calls this spiritual Israel "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," the very same designation God used for national Israel in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:9; etc. The true Jews in God's eyes are no longer people born through lineal descent from Abraham, but those who are of faith and belong to Christ. Galatians 3:26-29; etc. If you are a loyal and obedient follower of Jesus, then in God's reckoning you are more Jewish and more a member of Israel than if you could trace your geneology all the way back to Abraham.
Which is why the literal restoration of the political kingdom of modern Israel is just that, a political event, not a spiritual fulfilment of Bible prophecy. Even if the Jewish temple were to be rebuilt, it would not be a spiritual fulfillment of Bible prophecy. There are no more Bible prophecies concerning literal, national Israel yet to be fulfilled. Because on the testimony of the New Testament writers, and of Jesus Himself, being a member of Israel is no longer a matter of geneological descent, but of spiritual faith and belonging to Jesus.
That doesn't mean that God has cast off individual Jews from the opportunity of salvation. God loves Jews, even as He loves Arabs, American, Russians, and all other nationalities. Romans 11:1,2 "God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever [including the Jews] believeth in Him might not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16
These are several reasons why I don't see the Bible teaching the doctrine of the rapture.
hasbeen99
03-17-04, 06:24 PM
Does this hold true even after signing with the panthers?
Sorry VOR, just saw this. No, one must remain a Saint to be raptured. :D
hasbeen99
03-17-04, 06:26 PM
Obviously, Jesus spoke symbolically ("Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19). However, I believe that in this instance, Jesus was giving that thief a promise that would encourage him through his crucifixion. Giving him what would be a symbolic promise wouldn't have encouraged the thief as much as one that was literal.
But isn't that unusually misleading for Jesus? Wouldn't you agree that's out of character for Him to sugar-coat a promise, even with the best intentions?
hasbeen99
03-17-04, 06:30 PM
Another thought is that we need to recognize that the original language was in Greek (I know you know this). Therefore, when it was translated into English for the first time, it was translated with commonly held beliefs in mind. What I'm saying is that the first English versions translated it wrongly and all the other versions have followed because of the same belief.
An interesting point, and it does have merit. I agree that commonly held perceptions could very easily affect translation efforts. While I don't agree those influences are enough to change major points of doctrine, I must concede that minor points could differ based on the effects those perceptions potentially have.
hasbeen99
03-17-04, 06:34 PM
First, the second coming of Jesus is referred to over 1500 times in the Bible, and in an average of one verse in every 21 in the New Testament alone. In none of these passages does the Bible refer to Jesus' second coming as an event that happens in secret. The Bible DOES say that it will happen unexpectedly but never in secret.
Turbo, I'm confused about your repeated use of the term secret. Where are you getting that term? Have I used it?
hasbeen99
03-17-04, 08:31 PM
Okay, I understand your point about the danger of people waiting for a 'second chance', that being pre-trib rapture that may never come. But let me ask you this: if there is no pre-trib rapture (and there may not be), what is your take on the tribulation period?
On your argument regarding Daniel 9, I'm sorry to say I'm lost. I've stared at the passage for about 90 minutes now, and I can't see anything in it referring to the rapture of the church at all. It seems to be referring to the Antichrist, Jerusalem, and the tribulation period. Am I missing something?
On your assertion that Israel plays no further role in Biblical prophecy, I have to admit I'm at a loss. What, then, is your understanding of the prophesied treaty the Antichrist makes with Israel that if I understand correctly begins the seven year tribulation? I agree that the Jewish people are no longer God's most favored. The New Testament says, "There is no Jew or Gentile," meaning the playing field is now even.
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