The Koran

[jbghostrat]

For Miss Tery. Here is where we can discuss the Koran. First, where can you buy the Koran? Let's all buy one and discuss it here. what do ya say?

[Rob]

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

[vpkozel]

You can buy it in most any bookstore, and I highly recommend reading it. I took a class on the Middle East in college and The Koran was one of our main texts.
The guy who taught it was one of a kind. He was a former paratrooper who had parchuted into D-Day, and at 70 would sped the summers researching/fighting with the mujahadein. He got cancer in the first month of class and eneded up dying before exams.

[TimTam]

For Miss Tery. Here is where we can discuss the Koran. First, where can you buy the Koran? Let's all buy one and discuss it here. what do ya say?any bookstore sells it. just be prepared after reading it to feel really stupid abou all the christian/muslim issues going on. its a very good read. parts of it I think should be supplemental to the bible or the bible supplemental to it. Same message easier wordings in most cases

[hasbeen99]

just be prepared after reading it to feel really stupid abou all the christian/muslim issues going on.

Why?


parts of it I think should be supplemental to the bible or the bible supplemental to it. Same message easier wordings in most cases

Makes sense, both (along with Judaism) have the same founding father -- Abraham.

[TimTam]

Why?

they are the same in most respects. If you look at the bible in a metaphorical way and the Koran in a metaphorical way it is almost the same concept. There are a few differences in beliefs but not much at all. Seems silly to have such a religion based struggle with people who could potentially believe the same religion as you and only have things different in terms of chronology and syntax. now I may be overstating a little how similar they are but they are definitely more similar than Christianity and Judaism.

[vpkozel]

If religion were math, then the difference bewtween Judaism, Islam, and Christianity would be carried out to like the 5th decimal point.

And of course, it would not be very funny.

[hasbeen99]

...I may be overstating a little how similar they are but they are definitely more similar than Christianity and Judaism.

I got that impression from a Muslim cleric whom our church invited to speak a couple of years ago. I was actually quite surprised at how similar the two were.

Rob-
Thanks for the link. If I have time, I may read that and post passages from time to time. Or I'd encourage anyone else to do so as well. :)

[TimTam]

Or I'd encourage anyone else to do so as well. :)
:) :xyzthumbs:

[hasbeen99]

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[1.1] All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
[1.2] The Beneficent, the Merciful.
[1.3] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1.4] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
[1.5] Keep us on the right path.
[1.6] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.


So far, this does sound a lot like Paul's letters in the New Testament.

[hasbeen99]

Verses 2.6 and 2.7

[2.6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
[2.7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

Interesting. This principle for those who refuse to believe is similar to that of the Bible when it talks about people with "hardened hearts".

[hasbeen99]

Verses 2.8 and 2.9

[2.8] And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.
[2.9] They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.

Compare to Matthew 7:21-23

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

[Dukesuckgounc]

The Koran = the Hate book as wall as terroreist

[vpkozel]

The Koran = the Hate book as wall as terroreist

Dukey, that is absolutely not correct.

Many people use religion as an excuse to kill people when the actual root cause is something else.

Dukey, I like you a lot, and I enjoy your posts, but please trust me on this one and stop saying things like that.

[ezy ryder]

Dradle, dradle, dradle, I made you out of clay.
Dradle, dradle, dradle, with dradle I will play.

[kshead]

If religion were math, then the difference bewtween Judaism, Islam, and Christianity would be carried out to like the 5th decimal point.

And of course, it would not be very funny.

I wanted to be sure and acknowledge this as "almost quality". You really can't go wrong with a "Math is not funny" joke.

[vpkozel]

I wanted to be sure and acknowledge this as "almost quality". You really can't go wrong with a "Math is not funny" joke.

Thank you. I was beginning to worry that no one got it.

[slydevl]

Thank you. I was beginning to worry that Math is funnier than me.

[TimTam]

Gabriel and Muhammad entered the heavens, and met a man who was watching human spirits go past. At some he said, ‘A good spirit from a good body.’ At others he said: ‘An evil spirit from an evil body.’ Muhammad asked who this man was. Gabriel answered: ‘It is Adam, reviewing the spirits of his descendants.’

This was written by Ibn Ishaq in "The Life of Mohammed" circa 840 AD. Ibn ishaq is considered a leader of religious thought in this time. He wrote the first biographical volume on the Prophet Mohammed's life (outside of the Qu'oran). I find it interesting that the Arch Angel's name as well as Adam both show up in the same context and role.

[Dukesuckgounc]

Dukey, that is absolutely not correct.

Many people use religion as an excuse to kill people when the actual root cause is something else.

Dukey, I like you a lot, and I enjoy your posts, but please trust me on this one and stop saying things like that.Ok maybe not the the terroreist book.But i think you can make a strong case about an hate book.Islam hate the fact that there is state called Israel.And that is there Jews state .Yes you can there some very good Person how believes in Allah but the thing is you don’t see them. You will never hear one guy how believe in Allah say Israel is the Jews state.

[Village Idiot]

Many people use religion as an excuse to kill people when the actual root cause is something else.Very well said

[TimTam]

Ok maybe not the the terroreist book.But i think you can make a strong case about an hate book.Islam hate the fact that there is state called Israel.And that is there Jews state .Yes you can there some very good Person how believes in Allah but the thing is you don’t see them. You will never hear one guy how believe in Allah say Israel is the Jews state.
its not a hate of Jews but you are correct that many Muslims don't want a state called Israel. Muslims feel this way for the same reasons your people feel there should be that state. If you trace it back far enough Jews believe that God designated the land in Israel as theirs. Muslims believe that God gave them the right to it. All religions think that they are God's chosen people. Why would you be Jewish if you thought Muslims were god's people. You can't say that the Koran is a book of hate anymore than you can say the Torah is. Both lay claim to the land for the same reason. this is simply an arguement over who is god's people and it is actualized in a land deal.

[vpkozel]

Muslims believe that God gave them the right to it.

Well, that and the fact that they had lived there up until 55 years ago or so, then they got thrown out on their asses.

[TimTam]

Well, that and the fact that they had lived there up until 55 years ago or so, then they got thrown out on their asses.dude the Jews were there for thousands of years too (think Moses). When you look over there its not about political maps and established governmental centers its about inherited land from 1000s of years ago and people wanting to be governed by their own people. Its very much like the Hindi/Islamic issues that arose during the partition of Pakistan and India from the British Empire (and later the creation of Bangladesh). Certain states wanted to be governed by their own people so they broke away. the Muslim states in India are not ruled any different than their Hindi neighbors and often copy the legislation to a T but at the end of the day they can see this is our area.

[ECILAM]

Dradle, dradle, dradle, I made you out of clay.
Dradle, dradle, dradle, with dradle I will play.

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

I'm gonna laugh for the rest of the day.

Thank you.

[Miss tery]

Without having read the actual texts, my experience indicates the two religions are very close, recognizing many of the same historical figures, and sharing many of the same tenets.

[ECILAM]

Without having read the actual texts, my experience indicates the two religions are very close, recognizing many of the same historical figures, and sharing many of the same tenets.

They just disagree on who the top prophets are and doctrinal details. As I see it, the Bible and the Koran share the same basic ideas on the following:

-Love God and reject evil.
-Don't be an asshole.
-Don't have sex until you're married, and be a faithful spouse.
-Don't kill people unless they're evil.
-Be truthful and have integrity.
-Family is sacred.

Unfortunately, ideas like good and evil are subjective, and arguements over what constitutes evil and other divisive issues have taken more lives down the long centuries than the NBA has illegitimate children.

[TimTam]

They just disagree on who the top prophets are and doctrinal details. As I see it, the Bible and the Koran share the same basic ideas on the following:

-Love God and reject evil.
-Don't be an asshole.
-Don't have sex until you're married, and be a faithful spouse.
-Don't kill people unless they're evil.
-Be truthful and have integrity.
-Family is sacred.

Unfortunately, ideas like good and evil are subjective, and arguements over what constitutes evil and other divisive issues have taken more lives down the long centuries than the NBA has illegitimate children.

Even basic storyline is there. The parting of the seas is in there. The Garden of Eden and apple ordeal is in there. Lots of the same stories.

[hasbeen99]

Verse 2:24

[2.24] ...then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.

I wonder how Islam defines "unbelievers". If they equate 'unbeliever' with atheist, it would agree with the Bible. If they define 'believers' by Muslims exclusively, obviously it would be in sharp contrast with the Bible, but in more than one way. The Bible at least allows for people who believe in God but have never been taught the Mosaic Law or the Gospel of Jesus.

[hasbeen99]

Verse 2:25

[2.25] And convey good news to those who believe and do good deeds, that they shall have gardens in which rivers flow; whenever they shall be given a portion of the fruit thereof, they shall say: This is what was given to us before; and they shall be given the like of it, and they shall have pure mates in them, and in them, they shall abide.

First reference linking salvation to good deeds.

[TimTam]

Verse 2:25



First reference linking salvation to good deeds.you are the man hasbeen. so rarely will you find someone w/ such strong beliefs that will even talk about something let alone read it. :applause:

[TimTam]

going along with the salvation for good deeds

Men and women, what evil attractions have lured you from your gracious Lord, who created and fashioned you, molding your body according to his will? Yes, you deny the last judgment. Yet there are guardians watching over you, carefully recording all your actions. The righteous will surely live in bliss.

Qur'an-- Surah 82:6-13

[hanger4]

Verse 2:25



First reference linking salvation to good deeds.
This is first reference linking salvation "to those who believe" and do good deeds.
Don't forget the the first part, without which the "good deeds" are moot point.

[hasbeen99]

This is first reference linking salvation "to those who believe" and do good deeds.
Don't forget the the first part, without which the "good deeds" are moot point.

You are absolutely correct, and that's a strong point.

[VOR]

You are absolutely correct, and that's a strong point.

However, it you believe, then the good deed simply come about. You can't believe and be an ass. You can mouth the words and be an ass, but true belief requires action. That's the difference between accepting jesus and merely trying to hedge your bets.

[hasbeen99]

However, it you believe, then the good deed simply come about. You can't believe and be an ass. You can mouth the words and be an ass, but true belief requires action. That's the difference between accepting jesus and merely trying to hedge your bets.

Depends on how one defines "believe", but personally I agree with you. Good deeds, or more to the point "obedience" should be the natural result of faith.

But where things get very sticky is when you try to make the reverse true as well -- i.e. if you don't obey or do good works, you don't truly believe. There are few ways to piss someone off quicker.

[Superfluous_Nut]

i think another fundamental aspect that seperate islam from christianity is that islam believes people are born sin-free and need to stay that way, while christianity believes people are born sinners and need to atone for their sins.

how accurate is this?

in regards to islams claim to israel... the middle east is where europe, africa and asia intersect. how could it not be an area in constant turmoil? didn't the israelies kick somebody else outta there in the bible? cananites or something?

[hasbeen99]

i think another fundamental aspect that seperate islam from christianity is that islam believes people are born sin-free and need to stay that way, while christianity believes people are born sinners and need to atone for their sins.

how accurate is this?

I couldn't say for certain regarding Islam, but it would make sense to a degree. To start off doomed and try to earn your way in is a tough row to hoe. And to take it a step further, I don't believe it's fair.

As far as the Christian doctrine of being born sinners goes, I haven't really gotten to a place where I'm comfortable with that yet. I know at some point, it's a slam dunk bet that all of us have placed our own will above God's. But to claim that an infant is a sinner without any awareness of his own free will is a concept I haven't quite figured out yet.


in regards to islams claim to israel... the middle east is where europe, africa and asia intersect. how could it not be an area in constant turmoil? didn't the israelies kick somebody else outta there in the bible? cananites or something?

They kicked several city-states out of that stretch of land. At least a dozen or more communities.

[hasbeen99]

They kicked several city-states out of that stretch of land. At least a dozen or more communities.

I just read about this today. The Israelites under Joshua killed more than 31 kings.

[hasbeen99]

Verse 2:29


[2.29] He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

First reference to multiple heavens. I wonder if they're equal, or have varying significance... :thinking:

[hasbeen99]

Verses 2:30 - 33


[2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.
[2.31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.
[2.32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.
[2.33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

This seems to be a retelling of the Genesis account. The only difference is that here it says God gave Adam the names for the animals, and in the Bible, Adam chose the names himself.

[hasbeen99]

Verse 2:34


[2.34] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

The casting out of whom the Bible calls Satan. Very interesting...

Something else that's very interesting -- the use of the word "We". Who is "we" in Islamic doctrine? Surely it can't mean the same as the Bible's Holy Trinity. :saywhat:

[hasbeen99]

Verse 2:36


[2.36] But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.

Another parallel to the Bible with regard to Satan. In the Bible, he starts out as the angel Lucifer. When he rebels and is cast out of heaven, God calls him 'Satan', which means "accuser" if I'm not mistaken.

[hasbeen99]

Verses 2:38-39


[2.38] We said: Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
[2.39] And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

This would appear to be a parallel to God giving the Israelites the 10 commandments and the Mosaic law.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Verses 2:30 - 33



This seems to be a retelling of the Genesis account. The only difference is that here it says God gave Adam the names for the animals, and in the Bible, Adam chose the names himself.

interesting. so if i understand...

god says, "i'm gonna make man" and the angels are apprehensive. but god says "i know thing you don't"

god teaches adam the names of things (where does it say animals?) and then quizes the angels on the names of those things. when they can't answer, he brings in adam to show that god knows more than them.

heaven sounds a little dysfunctional.

[hasbeen99]

interesting. so if i understand...

god says, "i'm gonna make man" and the angels are apprehensive. but god says "i know thing you don't" god teaches adam the names of things (where does it say animals?) and then quizes the angels on the names of those things. when they can't answer, he brings in adam to show that god knows more than them.

heaven sounds a little dysfunctional.

My bad on the animals reference. I was crossing the Qur'an with the Bible.

But yes, from the beginning it appears that there is a bit of jealousy going on between the angels and man.

Edit: I don't think it's ever really laid out this way in the Bible, but that's a popular theory as to one of the reasons why Lucifer and 1/3 of the other angels rebelled.

[hanger4]

Edit: I don't think it's ever really laid out this way in the Bible, but that's a popular theory as to one of the reasons why Lucifer and 1/3 of the other angels rebelled.
Your probably referring to the poem Dante's Inferno by Dante Alighieri.

[hasbeen99]

Your probably referring to the poem Dante's Inferno by Dante Alighieri.

I've never read it. :huh:

[TimTam]

Your probably referring to the poem Dante's Inferno by Dante Alighieri.
You sure you arent thinking Paradise Lost by Milton?

[hasbeen99]

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

:jawomg:

Kinda blows a hole in the "Christians and Jews = infidels" teaching, doesn't it?

[hasbeen99]

[2.67] And when Musa said to his people: Surely Allah commands you that you should sacrifice a cow; they said: Do you ridicule us? He said: I seek the protection of Allah from being one of the ignorant.
[2.68] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is. Musa said: He says, Surely she is a cow neither advanced in age nor too young, of middle age between that (and this); do therefore what you are commanded.
[2.69] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what her color is. Musa said: He says, Surely she is a yellow cow; her color is intensely yellow, giving delight to the beholders.
[2.70] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is, for surely to us the cows are all alike, and if Allah please we shall surely be guided aright.
[2.71] Musa said: He says, Surely she is a cow not made submissive that she should plough the land, nor does she irrigate the tilth; sound, without a blemish in her. They said: Now you have brought the truth; so they sacrificed her, though they had not the mind to do (it).

Interesting. Moses makes the Israelites sacrifice their own golden calf, and what's more, they do it begrudgingly.

[hasbeen99]

[2.83] And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel: You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside.


'Abridged' version of the ten commandments, it would appear.

[Superfluous_Nut]

when does captain kirk find him on that planet?

[TimTam]

Kinda blows a hole in the "Christians and Jews = infidels" teaching, doesn't it?I serve a violent God just ask Hyme.:rolleyes:

[hasbeen99]

[2.87] And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.

First mention of both Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That would account for 2/3 of the Christian Trinity (God the Father [Allah] and the Holy Spirit). The Qur'an has not yet, nor do I think it will, declare Jesus (Isa) as part of that Trinity.

[hasbeen99]

when does captain kirk find him on that planet?

Actually it was Spock's brother, Cybok, who found him first.

[hasbeen99]

[2.89] And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.

Very interesting. Because of the proximity to the other verse referring to Jesus, it would seem as though this is saying Israel is cursed for rejecting Jesus. Wow.

If this pattern holds through, I could see it as a foundation for the hatred Muslims have for Jews. So far most of this book has been about God (Allah) ranting all over Israel because of their disobedience and hard-heartedness.

[Rob]

This is good stuff Hasbeens :xyzthumbs

[hanger4]

Where do I begin; I don’t believe the GOD of the Jews is Allah. This is why, the Torah and Old Testament prophesies of the coming of the Messiah. The New Testament in Jesus Christ fulfills that prophesy. The prophesy of the second coming has not yet been fulfilled. No where is there mentioned any other prophets except false prophets.

There are some very important differences between the God of the Bible and Allah:
God's only begotten son is Jesus. Allah has no begotten son.
God made salvation available by sacrificing His Son and promises salvation by grace to those who believe. Allah sacrificed nothing, and only saves if sufficient works are done.
God has a payment for sins—Jesus Christ. Allah has no payment for sins.
God's Christ paid for the sins of mankind. Allah paid for nothing, and all men pay for their own sins.
God's salvation is through Christ's work. Allah's salvation is through people's works.
God's saving work is, "Come to Christ." The major part of Moslem salvation is to believe Mohammed was the sum and seal of the prophets.
God's book is very different from Allah's book. They contradict each other, so they cannot both be true. For example, the Bible says Christ was resurrected from the dead. The Moslems reject that as a lie.
God says his Son is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Allah says Christ is "only a messenger"
God treats men and women equally. Allah does not.
God says marriages today (Christian) are to be monogamous. Allah allows more than one wife.
There is no marriage in God's Paradise. Faithful men get many virgins in Allah's.
God says it is not necessary to have special days. Allah does: for example, Ramadan, the Moslem holy month during which Moslems fast during the day.

[hanger4]

This is good stuff Hasbeens :xyzthumbs
Yes it is hasbeen99. You moderate real good. :xyzthumbs

[TimTam]

Where do I begin; I don’t believe the GOD of the Jews is Allah. This is why, the Torah and Old Testament prophesies of the coming of the Messiah. The New Testament in Jesus Christ fulfills that prophesy. The prophesy of the second coming has not yet been fulfilled. No where is there mentioned any other prophets except false prophets.

There are some very important differences between the God of the Bible and Allah:
God's only begotten son is Jesus. Allah has no begotten son.
God made salvation available by sacrificing His Son and promises salvation by grace to those who believe. Allah sacrificed nothing, and only saves if sufficient works are done.
God has a payment for sins—Jesus Christ. Allah has no payment for sins.
God's Christ paid for the sins of mankind. Allah paid for nothing, and all men pay for their own sins.
God's salvation is through Christ's work. Allah's salvation is through people's works.
God's saving work is, "Come to Christ." The major part of Moslem salvation is to believe Mohammed was the sum and seal of the prophets.
God's book is very different from Allah's book. They contradict each other, so they cannot both be true. For example, the Bible says Christ was resurrected from the dead. The Moslems reject that as a lie.
God says his Son is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Allah says Christ is "only a messenger"
God treats men and women equally. Allah does not.
God says marriages today (Christian) are to be monogamous. Allah allows more than one wife.
There is no marriage in God's Paradise. Faithful men get many virgins in Allah's.
God says it is not necessary to have special days. Allah does: for example, Ramadan, the Moslem holy month during which Moslems fast during the day.Muslims...we are muslims not moslems. i dont call you xtian. No one said that they were the same God. Thats why its another religion. You say that you dont think Yaweh and Allah are the same but then it seems that you argue that the Christian God is not the the same as Allah. I thought that Yaweh is different than the Christian God. Allah and Yaweh have lots in common. The Bible and the Qu'ran have lots in common yet it is different. Where do they contradict each other. I dont know the Bible that well but tell me where? Because I think this is wrong.

How does the Bible treat men and women equally? "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow
nd thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth
hildren; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he
hall rule over thee."
Genesis 3:16, KJV

see also
"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest
apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided
hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which
becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let
the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer
not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man,
but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was
in the transgression."
1 Timothy 2:9-14, KJV

The Koran is just as equal as the Bible. I am follow Allah and I have a girlfriend who is quite a strong woman.
On Polygamy:
The verse in the Qu'ran that you are thinking of :
"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one." (Al-Nisa', 4:3)

But if you would read on to a subsequent verse that states: "You are never able to be fair and just between women even if that were your ardent desire." (Al-Nisa', 4:129)

Therefore polygamy is only allwed in the case of war and orphans. This was due to the overwhelming poverty and constant strife in the area at the time (which still goes on really). It was following period of tragedy in Islam after the battle of Uhud, when lots of men from the Muslim community in Medina were killed in one day. Numerous women and children were left without anything. To deal with this problem, Allah revealed the verse permitting men to be polygamous. The man who wants to be polygynous must have the ability to be just to all his wives. The verse is a call for just conduct towards women, not a right for men to fulfill their lust. And just treatment here means more than a man's monetary ability to support more than one wife: He must be fair in all ways, including in the time, support, and companionship he provides to his wives and children. If the guy fears he cant deal with all his wives, then Allah advocates that he should marryy only 1 as this will ensure equality.

[TimTam]

Very interesting. Because of the proximity to the other verse referring to Jesus, it would seem as though this is saying Israel is cursed for rejecting Jesus. Wow. there are several schools of thought in the Christian world that i have heard believe the Jews lost their place as God's chosen people for the rejection. seems like it would be that same for Christians

[Superfluous_Nut]

Where do I begin; I don’t believe the GOD of the Jews is Allah. This is why, the Torah and Old Testament prophesies of the coming of the Messiah. The New Testament in Jesus Christ fulfills that prophesy. The prophesy of the second coming has not yet been fulfilled. No where is there mentioned any other prophets except false prophets.

There are some very important differences between the God of the Bible and Allah:
God's only begotten son is Jesus. Allah has no begotten son.
God made salvation available by sacrificing His Son and promises salvation by grace to those who believe. Allah sacrificed nothing, and only saves if sufficient works are done.
God has a payment for sins—Jesus Christ. Allah has no payment for sins.
God's Christ paid for the sins of mankind. Allah paid for nothing, and all men pay for their own sins.
God's salvation is through Christ's work. Allah's salvation is through people's works.
God's saving work is, "Come to Christ." The major part of Moslem salvation is to believe Mohammed was the sum and seal of the prophets.
God's book is very different from Allah's book. They contradict each other, so they cannot both be true. For example, the Bible says Christ was resurrected from the dead. The Moslems reject that as a lie.
God says his Son is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Allah says Christ is "only a messenger"
God treats men and women equally. Allah does not.
God says marriages today (Christian) are to be monogamous. Allah allows more than one wife.
There is no marriage in God's Paradise. Faithful men get many virgins in Allah's.
God says it is not necessary to have special days. Allah does: for example, Ramadan, the Moslem holy month during which Moslems fast during the day.
but the jews don't believe jesus was the messiah. are they worshipping the same god, but just improperly? if you say the christian god and the jewish god are the same, then i would think allah would be the same as well. or else, they're all three seperate gods who are similar.

[hasbeen99]

...I don’t believe the GOD of the Jews is Allah. This is why, the Torah and Old Testament prophesies of the coming of the Messiah.

I've only read as much of the Qur'an as I've posted here, so I don't know what prophecies are found in it yet. What I do know is that the Arabic culture has the same patriarch as the Jewish culture -- Abraham. So if you go back far enough, it goes back to one man, one God. But that's cultural, not doctrinal.

I also know that Mohammed wrote the Qur'an some 600 years after Jesus' death, and a couple of thousand years (roughly) after Abraham's death. He wrote it to a culture that traditionally speaking, probably still feels cheated out of God's blessing going all the way back to Jacob and Esau.

So far, most of what I've read in the Qur'an seems like a rant against Israel for blowing the blessing they never deserved in the first place. It seems as though Esau is still fighting with Jacob to gain favor in their father's eyes.

At least the Qur'an acknowledges Jesus. In fact, the Qur'an gives Him more credit than do the Jews.

[hasbeen99]

there are several schools of thought in the Christian world that i have heard believe the Jews lost their place as God's chosen people for the rejection. seems like it would be that same for Christians

There are several verses in the New Testament that would support that assertion. I think Paul is the first one who starts preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, but only after he tries to preach to the Jews and they reject both him and his teaching. (Understandible, really, seeing as how he was a Pharisee.) I don't know that the 'leveling of the playing field' between Jews and Gentiles was so much about the Jews being smacked down, though, as it was about the Gentiles being lifted up. Just my opinion, though (as a Gentile :D).

In retrospect, I may have tried to read too much into that verse (2:89). There were several prophets, and Israel rejected many, if not all of them. Seems they got tired of God's messengers calling them out and airing their dirty laundry.

[hasbeen99]

but the jews don't believe jesus was the messiah. are they worshipping the same god, but just improperly? if you say the christian god and the jewish god are the same, then i would think allah would be the same as well. or else, they're all three seperate gods who are similar.

Good point.

[magnus]

My last dealings in business with the Nation of Islam in these parts left a sincere feeling that they found themselves to be in tune to, and in worship of, the same God.
That's not the same message, necessarily, that Farrakhan or an islamic fundamentalist or so on would necessarily say, but it's what I have to work upon. I think largely the greatest differences between Islam and Christianity are in culture and application, as far as how each are viewed in Western Culture, along with the basic fundamentals between how they view Christ and Mohammad.

[Superfluous_Nut]

My last dealings in business with the Nation of Islam in these parts left a sincere feeling that they found themselves to be in tune to, and in worship of, the same God.
That's not the same message, necessarily, that Farrakhan or an islamic fundamentalist or so on would necessarily say, but it's what I have to work upon. I think largely the greatest differences between Islam and Christianity are in culture and application, as far as how each are viewed in Western Culture, along with the basic fundamentals between how they view Christ and Mohammad.
i get the impression that the nation of islam is to islam what baptists are to catholics.