Atheists

[slydevl]

In my opinion not only do atheists lack the mental faculties necessary to comprehend an idea as complicated as God but they are also more likely to be thieves and liars as they have no moral authority to answer to.

Discuss.

[Village Idiot]

they have no moral authority to answer to.

Discuss.IMO the moral decay of our nation is what will bring us to an end. We will self destruct from within. It wont happen all at once. It will creep in like the fog. We see evidence of this today in our schools and on the streets.

[FreakOnA_Leash]

In my opinion not only do atheists lack the mental faculties necessary to comprehend an idea as complicated as God but they are also more likely to be thieves and liars as they have no moral authority to answer to.

Discuss.


I wouldn't say I was necessarily atheist. However, I disagree strongly with your comment. I think it would almost be the other way around. I think God and religion are nice smoke screens for those who don't have any energy to think for themselves or they have to rely on their (or someone elses) beliefs to be taught to them. Even though I think you said it will when you mentioned God as an idea.

[ECILAM]

In my opinion not only do atheists lack the mental faculties necessary to comprehend an idea as complicated as God but they are also more likely to be thieves and liars as they have no moral authority to answer to.

Discuss.


False stereotype.

[slydevl]

False stereotype.

Some of the finest minds ever believe(d) in God. Einsteen, Hawking, Sly......the list goes on and on.

[hasbeen99]

Personally, I don't generally believe atheists believe as they do because of any lack of ability. I think a significant key to both the religious and the non-religious is the amount of willingness to be open-minded.

[hasbeen99]

I think it is fascinating that almost every mass-murderer says that either God or the Devil told them to do it.

That's why I find it so important for religious people to know and continually challenge their own doctrine. I think most of the instances you're referring to are a direct result of people taking one person's, or a handful of people's word at face value with no accountability factored in at all.

[vpkozel]

I think it is fascinating that almost every mass-murderer says that either God or the Devil told them to do it.

Proof? Link? Scientific Facts?

Son Of Sam said it was his dog - so you can cross that one of your list.

[hasbeen99]

Proof? Link? Scientific Facts?

Son Of Sam said it was his dog - so you can cross that one of your list.

But didn't he say God or an angel was talking through his dog? :thinking:

The woman in the southwest (Arizona? New Mexico?) who killed her four children said God told her to.

Can't think of any others off the top of my head.

[BigVito]

Some of the finest minds ever believe(d) in God. Einsteen, Hawking, Sly......the list goes on and on. Sly, at best Einstein was a pantheist. I'm sure you are referencing his quote "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Here is another quote from Einstein:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something in me can be called religious then it is the unbound admiration for the structure of the world as our science can reveal it."

or

"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood to anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humilty. This is a genuinely religious feeling but it has nothing to do with mysticism."

or

"The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive."

[Guest]

Don't really buy that atheists are theives and murderers.....find them more to be live and let live types. They either think of religion as fictional or naive.

I personally have never been able to escape my convictions no matter how hard I may try. God has me by the balls.....that may be my simplistic way of interpreting why I face so many trials and tribulations or it may be the undeniable concious that was fueled by my childhood faith. No matter how much I wish I could ignore my faith....it burns inside and doesn't allow me to deny it.

Atheists definately have an advantage over people of religious faith....no moral convictions. Most adopt a mutual respect for others and live by that code of ethics. I don't really know if that would be atheist though.....more like humanistic. Most atheists are humanists.

[BigVito]

Don't really buy that atheists are theives and murderers.....find them more to be live and let live types. They either think of religion as fictional or naive.

I personally have never been able to escape my convictions no matter how hard I may try. God has me by the balls.....that may be my simplistic way of interpreting why I face so many trials and tribulations or it may be the undeniable concious that was fueled by my childhood faith. No matter how much I wish I could ignore my faith....it burns inside and doesn't allow me to deny it.

Atheists definately have an advantage over people of religious faith....no moral convictions. Most adopt a mutual respect for others and live by that code of ethics. I don't really know if that would be atheist though.....more like humanistic. Most atheists are humanists.I can only speak of the atheists I know, and they are few, and you are right. Most are humanists in one form or another. Morals and ethics aren't the exclusive province of the religious. I do feel that most religions that I have even a slight familiarity with share very common values and ethics. I think that goes back to the "truths" we touched on in another thread.

[ECILAM]

Proof? Link? Scientific Facts?

Son Of Sam said it was his dog - so you can cross that one of your list.

Jeffery Dahmer leaps to mind.

[ECILAM]

Some of the finest minds ever believe(d) in God. Einsteen, Hawking, Sly......the list goes on and on.

Well, I don't know about the Sly part, but you have a point. High IQ and religious faith are not mutually exculsive. But I don't think I've ever met a metally retarded atheist, either.

As for unbelievers being more likely to be theives and liars, that's a crock o' hooey, from my experience. Where I'm from, even the most beligerent, wife-beating alcoholic "believes in God." In short, the best people I've ever met and the most wretched cockheads I've ever met can't be clearly categorized by the presence or absence of religious faith. Prisons are filled with hardened criminals who "love God" like they love their babies' mamas. Plenty of other convicts have no use for religion, it's true.

My point is that the theives, murderers, and scoundrels of the world do what they do because of their own personalitiy types and their own individual choices. What they say they believe in is incidental.

[Superfluous_Nut]

i think sly's actually sorta right. without a clear moral compass dictated from the word go, societies would have a hard time getting out of the small family group variety. you need an aknowledged golden rule that people will follow when nobody (they see) is watching.

the major religions all share the basic creed of treat others like you'd want to be treated. and that's what makes them major, really. adherents to these religions flourish in societies that flourish.

so religion is great at getting people from the stone age into the pre-industrial age. but once you've got a large, educated, well-infrastructured, modern society, belief in a higher power is probably not so important.

[hasbeen99]

My point is that the theives, murderers, and scoundrels of the world do what they do because of their own personalitiy types and their own individual choices. What they say they believe in is incidental.

:applause:

It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

[hasbeen99]

...without a clear moral compass dictated from the word go, societies would have a hard time getting out of the small family group variety. you need an aknowledged golden rule that people will follow when nobody (they see) is watching.

But religion doesn't necessarily precipitate that. 'Following the rules' when no one is watching is a character issue, not a doctrinal one.


the major religions all share the basic creed of treat others like you'd want to be treated. and that's what makes them major, really. adherents to these religions flourish in societies that flourish.

Interesting argument. Certainly mutual respect and discipline in a community setting has had an influence on the development of society. Can anyone think of a society of people that has flourished and been secular from beginning to present? I can't think of any off the top of my head... :thinking:

[hasbeen99]

so religion is great at getting people from the stone age into the pre-industrial age. but once you've got a large, educated, well-infrastructured, modern society, belief in a higher power is probably not so important.

But that seems more like an intellectual argument rather than a character or societal argument like you made before. Or are you saying that religion's best function is to faciltate the growth and development of primitive societies?

[VOR]

Why would you need a moral authority? If you only do what you do to avoid hell then you are more a thief than the atheist who admits he dosen't accept jesus. Why would you be accepted into a perfect place where there is no fear when it takes fear to get you to behave. You would be a wolf among lambs.

[slydevl]

Why would you need a moral authority? If you only do what you do to avoid hell then you are more a thief than the atheist who admits he dosen't accept jesus. Why would you be accepted into a perfect place where there is no fear when it takes fear to get you to behave. You would be a wolf among lambs.

The cynic says it takes fear. The believer says it takes love. I personally believe that if you accept Christ as your savior you will be accepted into heaven. I try (and generally fail) to live a good life not because I am scared of Hell (remember I accept Jesus as my savior) but because I owe it to Jesus for the incredible sacrifice he made for me.

[Rob]

The cynic says it takes fear. The believer says it takes love. I personally believe that if you accept Christ as your savior you will be accepted into heaven. I try (and generally fail) to live a good life not because I am scared of Hell (remember I accept Jesus as my savior) but because I owe it to Jesus for the incredible sacrifice he made for me.

Lets not forget about the role the Holy Spirit plays. Jesus told the disciples It is good that I go for if I don't the comforter won't come. When a person truly believes and accepts Christ I believe that there is an indwelling of the Holy Spirit that takes place. Changes begin to take place from that moment forward from the inside out.

[hasbeen99]

Why would you need a moral authority? If you only do what you do to avoid hell then you are more a thief than the atheist who admits he dosen't accept jesus. Why would you be accepted into a perfect place where there is no fear when it takes fear to get you to behave. You would be a wolf among lambs.

True, and that's where Jesus' warning in Matthew 7 comes into play. He said that not everyone who associatest themselves with Him are necessarily His. He knows the difference, and they will suffer the same fate as those who do not believe. From what I've read in the Qur'an so far, Islam agrees with this in principle.

[Superfluous_Nut]

But religion doesn't necessarily precipitate that. 'Following the rules' when no one is watching is a character issue, not a doctrinal one.

not explicitly, but in general, religion comes from the idea that you should behave a particular way and then give reasons why.

[Superfluous_Nut]

But that seems more like an intellectual argument rather than a character or societal argument like you made before. Or are you saying that religion's best function is to faciltate the growth and development of primitive societies?
it's best function? i wouldn't make that judgement, but i do feel it is more essential as a civilization is just starting out.

sorta like a parent is more important when you're a child. as you get older, you understand more and can make decisions for yourself. i view religion as sorta a parent figure for a society.

[hasbeen99]

not explicitly, but in general, religion comes from the idea that you should behave a particular way and then give reasons why.

True. But I'm learning that in today's society, many if not most non-religious people have a code of ethics they live by, even if they make it up as they go. Most people, I think, agree that just about everone has at least some sense of good and evil without indoctrination. Would you agree with that?

[hasbeen99]

i view religion as sorta a parent figure for a society.

Interesting...

Would it follow, then, in your view that religious adults are likened to kids who don't ever leave home? I'm not trying to bait you, I just want to pursue this line of thought and see where it leads. I've never heard anyone say anything like that before.

[Reznor]

I don't think being moral and doing what's right has anything whatsover to do with being religious. It's rather offensive to be stereotyped as a thief or liar because of my lack of faith, actually. Common sense can't be attributed to religion, imo. Common sense dictates that it's wrong to steal and lie, coincidentily, so does the bible. I don't thinks it's mutually exclusive. Plenty of "bad" people can be found to further a case for either direction really, so I doubt if anything conclusive could be determined. I think self-righteousness is just as bad as stealing and lying, of course, christians never even realize they're doing it, so how can it be wrong?


The only difference I see is that christians can ask for forgiveness when they do something wrong, and atheists really just answer to themselves. You really can't just say that the basic morals of society are exclusive to religious people.

I really don't think mental faculties have ANYTHING whatsover to do with your belief system. I really don't want to get into a pissing contest, but I'd wager I'm just as intelligent as anyone here, and I'm really offended by your suggestion that I must be stupid or something since I don't believe in God. It's really ludicrous. It's just as likely that those that do believe, are easily manipulated followers who can't think for themselves.

[hasbeen99]

Common sense dictates that it's wrong to steal and lie, coincidentily, so does the bible. I don't thinks it's mutually exclusive. Plenty of "bad" people can be found to further a case for either direction really, so I doubt if anything conclusive could be determined.

I agree for the most part, Rez. But here's an arguable difference between the religious and non-religious -- accountability. Really, I feel that's at the core of the argument between the two sides. The religious choose to be accountable to a system, doctrine, belief, being that is superior to themselves. The non-religious choose not to -- they prefer that the buck stops with them, so-to-speak. As an atheist, would you agree with that?

If so, couldn't an argument be made that it's easier to justify 'bending the rules', if they're your own rules, and you're the only one you're accountable to?

To be clear, I'm not saying atheists bend the rules any more than the religious do. Like I've said before, I've broken 9 of the 10 commandments, and it could be argued that I've broken all 10. I've bent and broken as many rules as the next guy, so I'm definitely not raising myself to any kind of higher level than anyone else.

[Reznor]

well, there's obviously more ways to be accountable than just to your religion or diety, such as being accountable to your peers, society in general, the laws of the land, etc. You have to be accountable to yourself first though, before you can ever worry about any of the others, including a diety. Sure, we all bend rules (human nature), why should someone who can ask for forgiveness of his diety be afforded any more latitude than someone who is simply accountable to the society in which he lives?

[hasbeen99]

well, there's obviously more ways to be accountable than just to your religion or diety, such as being accountable to your peers, society in general, the laws of the land, etc.

Peers and the law, I can see. We're all accountable that way to one extent or another. But society in general? Could you expand on that idea for me? I'd like to get a better picture of that, especially in a society like ours that's more fluid and less steeped in tradition.


You have to be accountable to yourself first though, before you can ever worry about any of the others, including a diety. Sure, we all bend rules (human nature), why should someone who can ask for forgiveness of his diety be afforded any more latitude than someone who is simply accountable to the society in which he lives?

Great question. I, for one, don't think they should be. In fact, for some religions, I believe a strong argument can be made that believers should (and do) have less latitude than non-believers.

But herein lies the dilemma: you just posted that it's human nature to bend the rules -- to do what we want instead of what we should, if it goes against our will, and I agree wholeheartedly. As one theologian once put it, "God has asked us to be living sacrifices. But the problem with being a living sacrifice is that we keep trying to crawl off the altar." So how much weight does being accountable to ourselves really carry? If we can bend a rule and justify it in our own minds, is it still wrong?

[Ignatowski]

I really don't think mental faculties have ANYTHING whatsover to do with your belief system. I really don't want to get into a pissing contest, but I'd wager I'm just as intelligent as anyone here, and I'm really offended by your suggestion that I must be stupid or something since I don't believe in God. It's really ludicrous. It's just as likely that those that do believe, are easily manipulated followers who can't think for themselves.

Well said.

:applause:

[Reznor]

Peers and the law, I can see. We're all accountable that way to one extent or another. But society in general? Could you expand on that idea for me? I'd like to get a better picture of that, especially in a society like ours that's more fluid and less steeped in tradition.




Great question. I, for one, don't think they should be. In fact, for some religions, I believe a strong argument can be made that believers should (and do) have less latitude than non-believers.

But herein lies the dilemma: you just posted that it's human nature to bend the rules -- to do what we want instead of what we should, if it goes against our will, and I agree wholeheartedly. As one theologian once put it, "God has asked us to be living sacrifices. But the problem with being a living sacrifice is that we keep trying to crawl off the altar." So how much weight does being accountable to ourselves really carry? If we can bend a rule and justify it in our own minds, is it still wrong?
I guess by society in general that I basically meant peers and the law. Of course, the media plays such a big role in our society, that I think society might actually have a negative impact now that you've made me think about it. With all the stuff on CNN and the general pandering of primetime tv, then society probably lessens the morals of some people. I can see where weak-minded/weak-willed people could easily be influenced in either direction.

[hasbeen99]

I guess by society in general that I basically meant peers and the law. Of course, the media plays such a big role in our society, that I think society might actually have a negative impact now that you've made me think about it. With all the stuff on CNN and the general pandering of primetime tv, then society probably lessens the morals of some people. I can see where weak-minded/weak-willed people could easily be influenced in either direction.

Agreed.

[Miss tery]

This whole thread is just sly's childish attempt to get back at me for saying that in general, the non-religious are more intelligent that the religious.

[slydevl]

This whole thread is just sly's childish attempt to get back at me for saying that in general, the non-religious are more intelligent that the religious.


Nooooooooo!!!! You serious?

To be honest, it was a joke to start, but you provided more than enough evidence with your utter inability to picture God in anything other than physical terms.

[Guest]

This whole thread is just sly's childish attempt to get back at me for saying that in general, the non-religious are more intelligent that the religious.

I'll buy that......they are.....to intelligent for their own good....they've lost sight of faith and rely on what they can see and touch....I'd rather be dumb...

[jbghostrat]

Hasbeens BRoke ALL the 10 Commandments?!

[VOR]

I guess by society in general that I basically meant peers and the law. Of course, the media plays such a big role in our society, that I think society might actually have a negative impact now that you've made me think about it. With all the stuff on CNN and the general pandering of primetime tv, then society probably lessens the morals of some people. I can see where weak-minded/weak-willed people could easily be influenced in either direction.

It's not human nature to bend rules, it's the animal nature to bend rules. You're 99% chimp. If you accept Christ you sublimate the chimp and accentuate the humanity. Shit most churches are more chimp than man, that is where the rub comes in often they do more harm to educated people than good. The raptor said near the end there will be no church it will be up to the righteous to carry on the traditions themselves, in essence churchs will be out moded. Don't remember the verse but christ speaks of praying in private, not making public displays of piety. While christians banded together for survival, christanity was never meant to be a group exercise, it was alway about the individual and his personal relationship with God. In many respects the church is a mismash of jewish, greek and roman traditions masqueradeing as Christanity. In the early centuries that was functional, however as bob jones U would say, the gospel is there you can read, educate yourself or burn.

[Guest]

It's not human nature to bend rules, it's the animal nature to bend rules. You're 99% chimp. If you accept Christ you sublimate the chimp and accentuate the humanity. Shit most churches are more chimp than man, that is where the rub comes in often they do more harm to educated people than good. The raptor said near the end there will be no church it will be up to the righteous to carry on the traditions themselves, in essence churchs will be out moded. Don't remember the verse but christ speaks of praying in private, not making public displays of piety. While christians banded together for survival, christanity was never meant to be a group exercise, it was alway about the individual and his personal relationship with God. In many respects the church is a mismash of jewish, greek and roman traditions masqueradeing as Christanity. In the early centuries that was functional, however as bob jones U would say, the gospel is there you can read, educate yourself or burn.

I'll buy this too.....most churches are scary along with the wide eyed deacons and ministers in wait.....it all scares the shit out of me...I grew up in a scary church that bullied it's members into million dollar organs and escalators.....sick shit and ruined my idea of church.

I've found a school that holds church services. I enjoy it. No offering plate jammed in my face, no suits screaming at me and no robes singing opera....just a normal group of people wearing comfortable clothes interpreting the bible through visuals and music. Their is one main speaker and others that help using skits and videos teaching more of a living word that deals in the 21st century. The music consists of drums, guitars, bongos, keyboard and numerous singers. Coffee and donuts are provided before the service. Kids, young adults and old people hang out together eating donuts and drinking coffee, while interacting rather than being forced to shake hands after an awkward(SP and to tired to look it up) hymn. Anyway I'm still a sorry sack, but I'm learning to soften up. It's been a good experience so far.

[Reznor]

It's not human nature to bend rules, it's the animal nature to bend rules. You're 99% chimp. If you accept Christ you sublimate the chimp and accentuate the humanity. Shit most churches are more chimp than man, that is where the rub comes in often they do more harm to educated people than good. The raptor said near the end there will be no church it will be up to the righteous to carry on the traditions themselves, in essence churchs will be out moded. Don't remember the verse but christ speaks of praying in private, not making public displays of piety. While christians banded together for survival, christanity was never meant to be a group exercise, it was alway about the individual and his personal relationship with God. In many respects the church is a mismash of jewish, greek and roman traditions masqueradeing as Christanity. In the early centuries that was functional, however as bob jones U would say, the gospel is there you can read, educate yourself or burn.I lost you when you changed from evolving from chimps to believing in God...

I figure animals act on instinct, and don't exactly follow rules, so they don't have any to bend.

[Superfluous_Nut]

True. But I'm learning that in today's society, many if not most non-religious people have a code of ethics they live by, even if they make it up as they go. Most people, I think, agree that just about everone has at least some sense of good and evil without indoctrination. Would you agree with that?
yes. and i think it's a lot easier to abide by that internal sense of good given that our lives our pretty easy. it's more difficult to "be good" when your survival is in jeopardy -- be that because of limited resources, threats from others, or whatever it may be.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Interesting...

Would it follow, then, in your view that religious adults are likened to kids who don't ever leave home? I'm not trying to bait you, I just want to pursue this line of thought and see where it leads. I've never heard anyone say anything like that before.
i dunno. maybe. or perhaps adults that don't move far from home or stay in the same town their entire lives. but it think that's trying too hard to complete the analogy.

i don't fully understand what people get out of religion, but i have to assume it's worthwhile to them.

[Superfluous_Nut]

if you're an atheist, i would think you probably believe in evolution and most likely natural selection as the mechanism for speciation (is that a word?).

we are animals in this view, so it's pointless to speak of human traits vs animal traits. but we're social animals, which are somewhat special in the scheme of natural selection. we can pass on our genes not only directly, but by helping our relatives as well. if i have 3 brothers and they have 10 kids between them, that's like me having an additional 5 kids (roughly) as far as genes go (since each brother is roughly 50% similar to me genetically).

anyway, the simplistic view of survival of the fittest goes to the wayside when you consider the "greater good" of familial survival, and even societal survival. and you'll never have a working society if people don't have the ingrained notion that you should not steal/kill. it's difficult to say how much nurture vs nature plays a role in this, but certainly if a religion descibes a good person as acting a certain way and that person is seen as more desirable, then in a sense, religions could also affect who passes on their genes. actually, thinking about it, it certainly was a selection force for ages (marrying people of the same religion, basically).

i suppose you could say, then, that religion is human nature.

[sdplusbeauty]

Don't really buy that atheists are theives and murderers.....find them more to be live and let live types. They either think of religion as fictional or naive.

I personally have never been able to escape my convictions no matter how hard I may try. God has me by the balls.....that may be my simplistic way of interpreting why I face so many trials and tribulations or it may be the undeniable concious that was fueled by my childhood faith. No matter how much I wish I could ignore my faith....it burns inside and doesn't allow me to deny it.

Atheists definately have an advantage over people of religious faith....no moral convictions. Most adopt a mutual respect for others and live by that code of ethics. I don't really know if that would be atheist though.....more like humanistic. Most atheists are humanists.

I couldn't have said it better myself.. I agree totally with your post.

[Village Idiot]

yes. and i think it's a lot easier to abide by that internal sense of good given that our lives our pretty easy. it's more difficult to "be good" when your survival is in jeopardy -- be that because of limited resources, threats from others, or whatever it may be.Actually, we as a nation are more prone to call upon God when things/times are uncertain. We need God to help us through the tough times, we are more humble and willing to accept his way. We tend to fall away from Him when we are doing well. We dont need Him, in that way, and those that do not believe grow bolder and speak louder. This is the trend that I am now seeing in America today, but it started creeping in quite some time ago in the aftermath of the Cold War. IMO we will fall away from having any association with God as a nation. Wether you believe in Him or not, this will be a fatal flaw in the very foundation of our nation. The decay will come from within.

[VOR]

I lost you when you changed from evolving from chimps to believing in God...

I figure animals act on instinct, and don't exactly follow rules, so they don't have any to bend.

you''ve never lived with an aussie shepherd. They tend to fit burkes definition of man as a symbol user who manages guilt to a T

[mathmajors]

I, as a Christian, disagree in general terms with the initial post in this thread.

Thank you.

[magnus]

Agreed.
However I also know the purpose of what was being said and can't disagree totally with it, either. This place shouldn't be a free-for-all, but it also shouldn't bend totally backwards to the somewhat whimsical and disdainful ways that people have come in here looking to tailor discussion to their own wants, to the detriment of those who make up a mass of discussion.

I don't think that this should be a place for religion to be attacked and then defended. That's what it's largely become, it seems. This forum shouldn't be filled to the rim with people from other places just because _tery doesn't want to be held accountable for trolling people she obviously has disdain for.
I don't really think that disdain is constructive in any way.

[gutter]

It all depends on where and how you grew up. I wonder if all the Southern baptist would still be Baptist if they grew up in India. I doubt it. And I bet Miss Tery wouldn't be Athiest if she grew up in my family.

So based on this anyone in my opinion who believes in their convictions with 100% certainty doesn't have a low IQ, just an inability to ask themselves the right questions.

[Reznor]

The way I see it, it's something deep inside that has nothing to do with intelligence. I'd also argue about that "asking themselves the right questions." With all the contradictions and scientific evidence that goes against the bible, maybe Christians are ignoring the right questions themselves. Sorry for polluting your forum with my opinions, and responding to a thread that insulted me. It won't happen again.

[vpkozel]

With all the contradictions and scientific evidence that goes against the bible, maybe Christians are ignoring the right questions themselves. Sorry for polluting your forum with my opinions, and responding to a thread that insulted me. It won't happen again.

But there are plenty of scientific contradictions with today's (or really yesterday's) science that they don't xpose to the same scrutiny.

As for the rest, I would say that you are expressing your opinions and evaluating others' for what they say. That is exactly what I think most people hope this forum will be. Very few people here have a problem with someone expressing an opinion different from their own.

[muff_spelunker]

...they are also more likely to be thieves and liars as they have no moral authority to answer to.

I don't know about that, Sly. I know a lot of good Christians that sin like Satan because they can go to church on Sunday and their sins will be atoned.

[slydevl]

I don't know about that, Sly. I know a lot of good Christians that sin like Satan because they can go to church on Sunday and their sins will be atoned.

I have a problem with that. Anyone who uses Jesus sacrifice as an excuse to sin is just wrong. To me forgiveness should only be asked when you realize you have sinned in hindsight and regret your actions not by those who realize they are going to sin and do so anyway. To me that is where the judgement will come into play.

[gridfaniker]

I have a problem with that. Anyone who uses Jesus sacrifice as an excuse to sin is just wrong. To me forgiveness should only be asked when you realize you have sinned in hindsight and regret your actions not by those who realize they are going to sin and do so anyway. To me that is where the judgement will come into play.

You knew it was wrong to build homes out of your own fecal matter and then sell them to unsuspecting hispanics as authentic adobe huts. You knew it was wrong, you rotten bastard, and you did it anyway. Now you want forgiveness? Please.

[VOR]

You knew it was wrong to build homes out of your own fecal matter and then sell them to unsuspecting hispanics as authentic adobe huts. You knew it was wrong, you rotten bastard, and you did it anyway. Now you want forgiveness? Please.

who are you to judge you pompus bastard. Those huts were some first class feces- better than adobe. Leave it to some journalist to get on a guy for selling first class product.

[hasbeen99]

I don't know about that, Sly. I know a lot of good Christians that sin like Satan because they can go to church on Sunday and their sins will be atoned.

Those aren't good Christians, Muff. Even Paul calls them out in the New Testament. And I totally agree with Sly that those people who are "working the system" like that are in for a very rude surprise when Judgment Day comes.

[vpkozel]

And I totally agree with Sly that those people who are "working the system" like that are in for a very rude surprise when Judgment Day comes.

Uh-oh...... :)

[Superfluous_Nut]

Actually, we as a nation are more prone to call upon God when things/times are uncertain. We need God to help us through the tough times, we are more humble and willing to accept his way. We tend to fall away from Him when we are doing well. We dont need Him, in that way, and those that do not believe grow bolder and speak louder. This is the trend that I am now seeing in America today, but it started creeping in quite some time ago in the aftermath of the Cold War. IMO we will fall away from having any association with God as a nation. Wether you believe in Him or not, this will be a fatal flaw in the very foundation of our nation. The decay will come from within.
absolutely. when people feel like they're not in control, i'm sure they'd be hope that some unseen force was on their side. i'm sure there'd be some comfort in the idea that "it'll all be okay cuz god loves me and wouldn't do anything bad to me".

reminds me of the only funny emo phillips joke i ever heard...

a skinny guy (it was emo in his version) is in a bar and bumps into a big biker and spills his drink. the biker gets pissed and grabs the skinny dude by the throat and is about to pound his face in. the skinny dude prays to god, "god, if you help me out here, i promise to be the best christian in the world". suddenly, out of the blue, a bolt of lightning strikes the biker dude and knocks him out. the skinny guy relieved and gasping for breath says "thanks anyways, god. maybe next time."

[Rob]

Those aren't good Christians, Muff. Even Paul calls them out in the New Testament. And I totally agree with Sly that those people who are "working the system" like that are in for a very rude surprise when Judgment Day comes.

Revelation 3:14-22
14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Don't want to be one of those Lukewarm Christians.

[Village Idiot]

absolutely. when people feel like they're not in control, i'm sure they'd be hope that some unseen force was on their side. i'm sure there'd be some comfort in the idea that "it'll all be okay cuz god loves me and wouldn't do anything bad to me".

reminds me of the only funny emo phillips joke i ever heard...

a skinny guy (it was emo in his version) is in a bar and bumps into a big biker and spills his drink. the biker gets pissed and grabs the skinny dude by the throat and is about to pound his face in. the skinny dude prays to god, "god, if you help me out here, i promise to be the best christian in the world". suddenly, out of the blue, a bolt of lightning strikes the biker dude and knocks him out. the skinny guy relieved and gasping for breath says "thanks anyways, god. maybe next time."Emo was really funny :rofl: