View Full Version : Is there anything else that needs to be understood about atheism...
slydevl
03-30-04, 12:32 PM
...other than a disbelief in God? Does that pretty much sum it up or is there more? I've read just about every argument atheists have against Christianity but is there some atheist manual or something?
The reason I ask is because it seems like most atheists who try to debate Christians haven't even read the whole Bible and thus have an incomplete understanding of the religion at best, totally lacking at worst. You would think that someone who felt stongly enough about telling a Christian they are wrong would at least be completely educated on the subject they are trying to debate.
How about the atheists here? How many of you have read the Bible cover to cover?
meatpile
03-30-04, 12:56 PM
I'm not an athiest, but that's a shitty argument.
Have you read The Book of Mormon? I haven't, but I still say Joe Smith was full of shit.
He got all kinds of pussy, though.
It seems that the true definition of atheism suggests apathy, rather than anger toward, religion. And yet more often than not, atheism seems to be a reaction to specific circumstances of man, or religion, not God.
Though I've seen it plenty in anger of God specifically - God took my father or God let my child get killed in a car accident, as specific examples.
Either circumstance leads atheism to be their best way to explain a less rational anger, in my opinion. I'm saying this as someone who nearly married an atheist, who has had atheistic friends, who has watched a friend become disenfranchised before my own eyes due to things that the person could not otherwise explain. Not as a specific indictment of people here specifically who target Christians or other people who have specific beliefs.
...other than a disbelief in God? Does that pretty much sum it up or is there more? I've read just about every argument atheists have against Christianity but is there some atheist manual or something?
The reason I ask is because it seems like most atheists who try to debate Christians haven't even read the whole Bible and thus have an incomplete understanding of the religion at best, totally lacking at worst. You would think that someone who felt stongly enough about telling a Christian they are wrong would at least be completely educated on the subject they are trying to debate.
How about the atheists here? How many of you have read the Bible cover to cover?
I guess my problem is the fact that I don't feel strongly enough about telling a Christian they are wrong until I'm drawn out by insults. It's not my business what you believe, and I certainly would never insult you for it. I grew up in a Christian family, so I've read the bible several times. That has nothing to do with what I believe, nor do I try to use it as a weapon to attack someone. Have you read all the Koran, etc? Judge not lest ye be judged.
slydevl
03-30-04, 01:44 PM
I'm not an athiest, but that's a shitty argument.
Have you read The Book of Mormon? I haven't, but I still say Joe Smith was full of shit.
He got all kinds of pussy, though.
I haven't read the Book of Mormon, don't recall having ever debated a Mormon about whether they are right or wrong, and am certainly not calliing them out on message boards telling them they are wrong. I have no idea where Mormonism conflicts with Christianity other than they say Christ appeared in North America so I am certainly not prepared to debate whatever those issues are.
BigVito
03-30-04, 02:13 PM
Sly, I think there are as many different types of atheists as there are different types of Christians. Some are as dogmatic and as evangelical as any TV preacher could dream of, and some are no more concerned about Christianity than you are concerned about what I had for lunch today.
Personally, yes, I've read the Bible. I would say that I have as good a general knowledge of the book as do most mainstream Christians. Heck, I used to be one. My study of the Bible, it's origins, other religions, etc. is what led me away from belief in Christianity.
vpkozel
03-30-04, 02:15 PM
Heck, I used to be one.
You used to be a Bible? :thinking:
...other than a disbelief in God? Does that pretty much sum it up or is there more? I've read just about every argument atheists have against Christianity but is there some atheist manual or something?
The reason I ask is because it seems like most atheists who try to debate Christians haven't even read the whole Bible and thus have an incomplete understanding of the religion at best, totally lacking at worst. You would think that someone who felt stongly enough about telling a Christian they are wrong would at least be completely educated on the subject they are trying to debate.
How about the atheists here? How many of you have read the Bible cover to cover?
you have an opinion on the war ...did you read UN Resolution 1440 cover 2 cover
BigVito
03-30-04, 02:21 PM
You used to be a Bible? :thinking:LOL! No but I was a Southern Baptist so in theory, maybe I was.
...other than a disbelief in God? Does that pretty much sum it up or is there more? I've read just about every argument atheists have against Christianity but is there some atheist manual or something?
The reason I ask is because it seems like most atheists who try to debate Christians haven't even read the whole Bible and thus have an incomplete understanding of the religion at best, totally lacking at worst. You would think that someone who felt stongly enough about telling a Christian they are wrong would at least be completely educated on the subject they are trying to debate.
How about the atheists here? How many of you have read the Bible cover to cover?
Come on sly quite picking on the comdemed they got it bad enough, being eternally damn and all.
slydevl
03-30-04, 02:38 PM
Come on sly quite picking on the comdemed they got it bad enough, being eternally damn and all.
I am not picking on all atheists. I am picking on the ones that seek out Christians and try to belittle them or prove them wrong, that is why I used the term "try to debate Christians". I certainly was not refering to Big Vito or even Reznor. I am sorry I can not get more specific than that without making a personal attack.
I am not picking on all atheists. I am picking on the ones that seek out Christians and try to belittle them or prove them wrong, that is why I used the term "try to debate Christians". I certainly was not refering to Big Vito or even Reznor. I am sorry I can not get more specific than that without making a personal attack.
Yeah well looks like the un-named pack the chess board and left. Some case for Entropy. Hell is was expecting a bit more fight, more verve. They(stupid politically correct construct) totally caved. bummer.
El Bastardo
03-30-04, 03:31 PM
some are no more concerned about Christianity than you are concerned about what I had for lunch today. I fall squarely into this camp. I don't give religion enough thought to make flaming Christians on message boards worth my time. By the way, I have read the bible and did go to catholic school for many years, but ultimately decided I just don't buy it. And to the whole thing about morals that everyone keeps bringing up, I consider myself as moral as the next guy. The difference is that I believe morals are grounded in common sense and good will and not spirituality.
I don't want a fight. I don't want to knock people down for what they think, anymore than I want to be knocked down for what I think.
And that's the issue. It seems as if there is a section of atheism that doesn't exist to discuss religion so much as to exert an angst against religion.
Ssstern
03-30-04, 03:37 PM
It seems that the true definition of atheism suggests apathy, rather than anger toward, religion. And yet more often than not, atheism seems to be a reaction to specific circumstances of man, or religion, not God.
Though I've seen it plenty in anger of God specifically - God took my father or God let my child get killed in a car accident, as specific examples.
Either circumstance leads atheism to be their best way to explain a less rational anger, in my opinion. I'm saying this as someone who nearly married an atheist, who has had atheistic friends, who has watched a friend become disenfranchised before my own eyes due to things that the person could not otherwise explain. Not as a specific indictment of people here specifically who target Christians or other people who have specific beliefs.
Apathy would be more Agnostic than atheism.
I fall squarely into this camp. I don't give religion enough thought to make flaming Christians on message boards worth my time. By the way, I have read the bible and did go to catholic school for many years, but ultimately decided I just don't buy it. And to the whole thing about morals that everyone keeps bringing up, I consider myself as moral as the next guy. The difference is that I believe morals are grounded in common sense and good will and not spirituality.
That's exactly where I stand as well.
hasbeen99
03-30-04, 03:46 PM
And that's the issue. It seems as if there is a section of atheism that doesn't exist to discuss religion so much as to exert an angst against religion.
And there are two separate motivations for that.
For those arguing against God Himself, I think they probably fit into the category of people you referred to in an earlier post -- the ones who have suffered terribly in life. Hate is not the opposite of love, as we all know. You have to believe someone exists to hate him.
Then there are those who refuse to believe in God because of His so-called representatives. This, I feel, is much more common.
Either way, the emotional component of their beliefs has closed their minds as much if not more than the minds of those whom they argue against.
Superfluous_Nut
03-30-04, 03:59 PM
i'm an atheist in the sense that i don't believe there's a god, but i think the more proper term is probably agnostic because i also don't believe there's NOT a god. depending on the situation tho, my atheist streak flares up and i feel compelled to debate christians.
i don't think reading the bible is that important, really. i don't see the bible as being the direct word of god so reading it is really just reading what somebody else says about things.
should one not debate the merits of communism without reading the communist manifesto? or what about mein kampf? should hitler be given a free pass till you read it?
slydevl
03-30-04, 04:04 PM
should one not debate the merits of communism without reading the communist manifesto? or what about mein kampf? should hitler be given a free pass till you read it?
That depends to me. Do you actively seek out communists to debate or do you just participate in the discussion as it comes to you?
hasbeen99
03-30-04, 04:14 PM
should one not debate the merits of communism without reading the communist manifesto? or what about mein kampf? should hitler be given a free pass till you read it?
I don't think it's an all or nothing deal. I think it's perfectly fine to argue from a limited knowledge base (in reality, that's what we ALL have), as long as you're open to considering other options.
Superfluous_Nut
03-30-04, 04:17 PM
That depends to me. Do you actively seek out communists to debate or do you just participate in the discussion as it comes to you?
speaking for myself, i don't seek out christians to debate. when it comes up, i'll debate it.
I don't think it's an all or nothing deal. I think it's perfectly fine to argue from a limited knowledge base (in reality, that's what we ALL have), as long as you're open to considering other options.
Yeah, if nothing else, these type of debates might actually get you interested in learning more about the other side of the coin. Anything that opens your mind or makes you want to learn something has to have some good in it.
BigVito
03-30-04, 04:26 PM
And there are two separate motivations for that.
For those arguing against God Himself, I think they probably fit into the category of people you referred to in an earlier post -- the ones who have suffered terribly in life. Hate is not the opposite of love, as we all know. You have to believe someone exists to hate him. When talking about those who actively oppose Christianity, I don't think this is necessarily true. HB, one can "hate" religion but not believe in a supreme being. Much of the atheist evangelical movement, for lack of a better phrase, sees the harm that religion causes in all it's forms. In our nation, we see it as Anti-Christian because we live in a society dominated by Christian tradition. The evangelical atheist most likely would feel the same disdain for any religion.
Then there are those who refuse to believe in God because of His so-called representatives. This, I feel, is much more common. I agree with this. Any type of belief system based on the actions of others is quite hollow. I find the argument of Christianity sucks because Christians are hypocrites to be so intellectually lazy as to not be worth responding to. All belief systems, whether religious, societal or political, are prone to hypocracy. It is simply the nature of human beings to say one thing and do another.
BigVito
03-30-04, 04:31 PM
That depends to me. Do you actively seek out communists to debate or do you just participate in the discussion as it comes to you?Sly, if we keep thinking of this as a debate, I think we are missing the point. Debates are by nature about scoring points, about winning. I would hope that if I wanted to discuss communism and understand it better, I would talk to communists. If I want to understand poverty, I don't debate a successful attorney, I discuss with those that are poor, with those that work to help them. If I want to learn about religions and why people believe the way they do, who should I talk to?
hasbeen99
03-30-04, 04:35 PM
Yeah, if nothing else, these type of debates might actually get you interested in learning more about the other side of the coin. Anything that opens your mind or makes you want to learn something has to have some good in it.
You've just about nailed the mission statement for this forum, Rez.
hasbeen99
03-30-04, 04:41 PM
When talking about those who actively oppose Christianity, I don't think this is necessarily true. HB, one can "hate" religion but not believe in a supreme being. Much of the atheist evangelical movement, for lack of a better phrase, sees the harm that religion causes in all it's forms. ...The evangelical atheist most likely would feel the same disdain for any religion.
Okay, but there are only two reasons a person could even hate religion -- either they're judging it globally by the actions of religious people, or they've studied the doctrine and don't agree with any of it. While some do fall into the latter category (even on this board), I submit to you that the vast majority likely fall into the former.
It is simply the nature of human beings to say one thing and do another.
Would you agree that nature is a result of the conflict between desire and a need for social acceptance?
slydevl
03-30-04, 04:44 PM
Sly, if we keep thinking of this as a debate, I think we are missing the point. Debates are by nature about scoring points, about winning. I would hope that if I wanted to discuss communism and understand it better, I would talk to communists. If I want to understand poverty, I don't debate a successful attorney, I discuss with those that are poor, with those that work to help them. If I want to learn about religions and why people believe the way they do, who should I talk to?
If you honestly wanted to learn about religion would you be continually antagonistic from the get go and would you actually participate in the discussion?
In any discussion the initial comment is what sets the tone from the outset.
vpkozel
03-30-04, 05:01 PM
when it comes up, i'll debate it.
No. Really? Sorry - I forgot the :D
ezy ryder
03-30-04, 05:29 PM
Isn't atheism more about what you aren't, than what you are? Some of you call yourselves atheist, but it seem to me that you would also need to call yourself something else. i.e. I don't believe in God, I believe in ____.
However, I completely understand El Bastardo's point of not giving much thought to it. It's easy for me to go through life neglecting my spiritual side as I'm sure it's easy for others.
El Bastardo
03-30-04, 05:45 PM
It's easy for me to go through life neglecting my spiritual side as I'm sure it's easy for others. Hell, I don't even have a spiritual side. It's just something that's not engrained as part of my thought processes.
hasbeen99
03-30-04, 05:59 PM
Isn't atheism more about what you aren't, than what you are? Some of you call yourselves atheist, but it seem to me that you would also need to call yourself something else. i.e. I don't believe in God, I believe in ____.
I've seen others remark that it's strange for some to define themselves (or their beliefs) by what they don't believe. I think many atheists would call themselves humanists, though. Probably depends on the question. If you ask an atheist, "Do you believe in God?" he might reply, "No, I'm an atheist." But if you ask an atheist, "What do you believe?" or maybe, "What philosophy do you follow?" you might get a different answer.
ezy ryder
03-30-04, 06:28 PM
Hell, I don't even have a spiritual side. It's just something that's not engrained as part of my thought processes.
But I'm sure many atheist would be offended if you assumed this about them.
Superfluous_Nut
03-30-04, 06:49 PM
I've seen others remark that it's strange for some to define themselves (or their beliefs) by what they don't believe. I think many atheists would call themselves humanists, though. Probably depends on the question. If you ask an atheist, "Do you believe in God?" he might reply, "No, I'm an atheist." But if you ask an atheist, "What do you believe?" or maybe, "What philosophy do you follow?" you might get a different answer.
"athiest" has connotations beyond it's denotation. strictly speaking, atheism is the denial of belief in a god or gods.
monotheists believe in a single god. polytheists belive in multiple gods.
you can be religiuos and atheist -- i think there are traditional chinese folk religions that don't believe in gods, but are still religions.
here in the states, belief in god is equated strongly with religion since it's pretty much the religion of the land.
hasbeen99
03-30-04, 07:30 PM
you can be religiuos and atheist -- i think there are traditional chinese folk religions that don't believe in gods, but are still religions.
I'm not quite sure, but I don't think Buddhists or followers of Confucius believe in any one god. I'm wanting to say Shinto in Japan is largely nature-based, but they might revere their emperor as 'god'. Again, I'm not quite sure on that one. :thinking:
Superfluous_Nut
03-30-04, 07:55 PM
I'm not quite sure, but I don't think Buddhists or followers of Confucius believe in any one god. I'm wanting to say Shinto in Japan is largely nature-based, but they might revere their emperor as 'god'. Again, I'm not quite sure on that one. :thinking:
hmm... actually, i looked a little bit further and i was wrong. chinese folk religions actually worship all sorts of "gods" tho their probably more like the catholic saints... but this is where the idea of "god" starts to get messy. is buddha a god?
hasbeen99
03-30-04, 08:09 PM
is buddha a god?
I don't think so. I think Buddha was more of what the Jews/Christians/Muslims would call a prophet - someone pointing other people toward a higher power. But I heard a Buddhist say once that they believe God is 'love'. It led me to believe that their version of 'God' wasn't a consciously aware being; they gave supernatural properties to the human emotion. Or something. :thinking:
When talking about those who actively oppose Christianity, I don't think this is necessarily true. HB, one can "hate" religion but not believe in a supreme being. Much of the atheist evangelical movement, for lack of a better phrase, sees the harm that religion causes in all it's forms. In our nation, we see it as Anti-Christian because we live in a society dominated by Christian tradition. The evangelical atheist most likely would feel the same disdain for any religion.
I agree with this. Any type of belief system based on the actions of others is quite hollow. I find the argument of Christianity sucks because Christians are hypocrites to be so intellectually lazy as to not be worth responding to. All belief systems, whether religious, societal or political, are prone to hypocracy. It is simply the nature of human beings to say one thing and do another.
Personally I was quite hostile towards all things Christian up until I accepted Christ. I actually threw a Baptist minister out of my house 6 months before I accepted Christ. My wife and I were visiting churches because we wanted our son to learn Christian values. I think anger is there before conversion. At least it was for me.
I agree with the last statement 100%
BigVito
03-30-04, 08:40 PM
Would you agree that nature is a result of the conflict between desire and a need for social acceptance? I could see that. There is a book out now by Michael Shermer "The Science of Good and Evil" that postulates the struggle you mention is the jumping off point for the evolution of ethics and morals. I'm looking forward to reading it. Two of his other books that I would highly recommend are "Why People Believe Weird Things" and "How We Believe."
BigVito
03-30-04, 08:42 PM
Isn't atheism more about what you aren't, than what you are? Some of you call yourselves atheist, but it seem to me that you would also need to call yourself something else. i.e. I don't believe in God, I believe in ____. About the only place I define my beliefs, or lack thereof, as atheistic is in the context of discussions on this board. I view myself as a Skeptic and lower case humanist.
BigVito
03-30-04, 08:47 PM
"athiest" has connotations beyond it's denotation. strictly speaking, atheism is the denial of belief in a god or gods.
monotheists believe in a single god. polytheists belive in multiple gods.
you can be religiuos and atheist -- i think there are traditional chinese folk religions that don't believe in gods, but are still religions.
here in the states, belief in god is equated strongly with religion since it's pretty much the religion of the land.
Yep, pantheism, as brought up in another thread, could describe those who don't believe in a supernatural god but have a reverence for the universe and science. There could be a spiritual connotation to it without it actually being religious belief.
BigVito
03-30-04, 08:50 PM
Personally I was quite hostile towards all things Christian up until I accepted Christ. I actually threw a Baptist minister out of my house 6 months before I accepted Christ. My wife and I were visiting churches because we wanted our son to learn Christian values. I think anger is there before conversion. At least it was for me. I went through a very similar hostile mindset towards Christianity in my early 20's. Mine came about on the exit from church life instead of entrance as was your case. I think you are right that anger can be a forerunner for conversion of any kind.
I went through a very similar hostile mindset towards Christianity in my early 20's. Mine came about on the exit from church life instead of entrance as was your case. I think you are right that anger can be a forerunner for conversion of any kind.
Thats when mine started. Early 20's as I was leaving church life. It is amazing how the Holy Spirit can remove that anger almost instantly. 25 years later and I am wondering why I waited so long.
mathmajors
03-30-04, 10:24 PM
Perhaps the religious folks who are most qualified to debate with atheists are the ones who have, at some point in their lives, been without religion.
...other than a disbelief in God? Does that pretty much sum it up or is there more? I've read just about every argument atheists have against Christianity but is there some atheist manual or something?
The reason I ask is because it seems like most atheists who try to debate Christians haven't even read the whole Bible and thus have an incomplete understanding of the religion at best, totally lacking at worst. You would think that someone who felt stongly enough about telling a Christian they are wrong would at least be completely educated on the subject they are trying to debate.
How about the atheists here? How many of you have read the Bible cover to cover?
I'll throw out an answer, even though "unbeliever" is a more appropriate label for me. Atheism, as I've said before, is just another dogma like any other, and I'm not down with many of its constraints. I'm agnostic, and have specifically parted ways with the God of the Bible.
My perspective is not one of ignorance or lack of understanding of Protestant Christianity; my perspective is more like, "Been there, bought the t-shirt." My apostacy started soon after I graduated high school and ran its course over a number of years.
The Protestant Christianity I practiced was directly contradictory to my inborn individual nature in a number of ways. I could get down with the goodwill towards others, the integrity and strength, no problem. The obedience, abstinence, conformity and guilt were another story.
The religion also seemed designed so that any failure or inconsistency could be explained away with some ecclesiastic acrobatics. "Turn the other cheek. Unless we're attacked by terrorists. Then murder the fuckers." "Jesus came to change the Old Covenant. Except for the gay thing. ******s are still going to hell." "God will answer your prayers. Unless you don't have enough faith, or ask for selfish things, or it just ain't in His plan." "I'm not perfect... just forgiven. For the nine squillionth time, since I do the same sin over and over again."
I also dislike any dogma that claims exclusive authority of "truth." Experience teaches me that anyone who comes up to me claiming to have the One True Answer to anything is more than likely full of shit. And so it is with explaining the order of the Universe. Monotheistic religions derived from the Bible and/or the Koran claim authority like so: "This Book is the Holy Truth of God." Why? "Because. You either have faith or you don't."
This goes on and on. I'm not out to change anyone else's opinion; this was just a sampling of the many points that over time have led me to where I am now.
WilliamJ
03-31-04, 07:49 AM
Perhaps the religious folks who are most qualified to debate with atheists are the ones who have, at some point in their lives, been without religion.
so very true.
gridfaniker
03-31-04, 09:19 AM
atheists do believe in something. They believe that people who proscribe to a religious doctrine are hokey and naive.
atheists do believe in something. They believe that people who proscribe to a religious doctrine are hokey and naive.
Not all believe that. I sometimes even envy those people who proscribe to a religious doctrine with unwavering faith and the obvious peace it brings.
hasbeen99
03-31-04, 02:15 PM
Perhaps the religious folks who are most qualified to debate with atheists are the ones who have, at some point in their lives, been without religion.
Excellent point, Math. Indeed, the ones who seem to cherish their faith the most are the ones who remember what life was like without it. People like Rob and I know all too well about the potential dark side in every human being, even those who seem to have it all together on the outside.
My wife, OTOH, has been a Christian since childhood and our faiths are very different. There are a lot of things I think and feel about God that she just can't wrap her mind around. Likewise, there are aspects of her faith that I can only dream about. But it's very difficult for her to relate to non-religious people. She has a hard time adjusting the way she thinks to see things from their perspective.
hasbeen99
03-31-04, 02:23 PM
atheists do believe in something. They believe that people who proscribe to a religious doctrine are hokey and naive.
Not all of them. :nono:
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