View Full Version : Born Again
muff_spelunker
03-31-04, 02:58 PM
What exactly does that mean in religious terms?
hasbeen99
03-31-04, 03:50 PM
This is where the phrase comes from...
John 3:1-7
"After dark one evening, a Jewish religious leader named Nicodemus, a Pharisee, came to speak with Jesus. "Teacher," he said, "we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are proof enough that God is with you."
Jesus replied, "I assure you, unless you are born again, you can never see the Kingdom of God."
"What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?"
Jesus replied, "The truth is, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven. So don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again."
Being "born again" is one of the doctrines that separates Christianity from Judaism, and probably Islam. Judaism teaches repentance and sacrifice to 'clean up' our sinful ways. The Christian principle of being born again is the idea that whomever commits to following Jesus as Lord and accepts His offer of salvation by grace is given a brand new spirit -- a new part of the soul that reconnects people back to fellowship with God.
Does that make sense?
Born Again is a term that I really hated growing up. I grew up in a Lutheran Church that didn't use it much and the term for me meant someone who was a little too fanatical.
It wasn't until I accepted Christ at the age of 43 that I began to understand on some beginning level what it means. Its basically change. You accept Gods gift of salvation and yield to the Holy Spirit.
I can only speak from my personal experience but gradually my life changed to the point that many of the destructive things I was doing simply weren't as attractive as they were before. I was filled with a passion to read the bible which was pretty strange. I found incredible peace and joy whenever I did something that I thought God was telling me to do. That made my faith stronger.
It wasn't something I set out to do but the changes have brought peace and joy into my life.
Village Idiot
03-31-04, 10:53 PM
Rob is cool
Rob is cool
Rob it smart too!
Ssstern
04-01-04, 10:22 AM
Born Again is a term that I really hated growing up. I grew up in a Lutheran Church that didn't use it much and the term for me meant someone who was a little too fanatical.
It wasn't until I accepted Christ at the age of 43 that I began to understand on some beginning level what it means. Its basically change. You accept Gods gift of salvation and yield to the Holy Spirit.
I can only speak from my personal experience but gradually my life changed to the point that many of the destructive things I was doing simply weren't as attractive as they were before. I was filled with a passion to read the bible which was pretty strange. I found incredible peace and joy whenever I did something that I thought God was telling me to do. That made my faith stronger.
It wasn't something I set out to do but the changes have brought peace and joy into my life.
This one of the true benefits of religion. Life changing(for the better) moments in peoples lives that make life more productive for themselves and the people around them.
The part about religion that has always hit me hard was the part were people use religion as an excuse to cause harm to others. As the old axiom goes, More people have been killed in the name of religion than from all the wars put together. Not sure of the veracity of that statement, but it has always given me pause.
Thanks for the compliments spud and VI.
The part about religion that has always hit me hard was the part were people use religion as an excuse to cause harm to others. As the old axiom goes, More people have been killed in the name of religion than from all the wars put together. Not sure of the veracity of that statement, but it has always given me pause.
I think that's a religion verses relationship issue. Also people will use religion as a front sometimes. I remember reading about a group of escaped criminals who were constantly playing Christian music and conducting bible studies in a campground where they were hiding. Evil exists in the world and throughout history has manifested itself disguised as something good.
muff_spelunker
04-01-04, 10:48 AM
It wasn't until I accepted Christ at the age of 43 that I began to understand on some beginning level what it means. Its basically change. You accept Gods gift of salvation and yield to the Holy Spirit.
I can only speak from my personal experience but gradually my life changed to the point that many of the destructive things I was doing simply weren't as attractive as they were before. I was filled with a passion to read the bible which was pretty strange. I found incredible peace and joy whenever I did something that I thought God was telling me to do.
Do you think, without religion, that your outlook would have changed anyway due to maturity? I don't mean this as a belittling question as I understand the happiness and contentment you now have in your life. But, I have basically the same thing and I'm not religious at all.
muff_spelunker
04-01-04, 11:02 AM
The Christian principle of being born again is the idea that whomever commits to following Jesus as Lord and accepts His offer of salvation by grace is given a brand new spirit -- a new part of the soul that reconnects people back to fellowship with God.
Does that make sense?
Well, yes and no. It makes sense in that I understand the definition. What I don't fully grasp is this: If I was raised Catholic from birth, attended church, followed the doctrines to my best (human) ability, and lived a good life but my spirituality stayed on an even keel throughout, would I not reap the benefit (I know that's not the proper word) of being born again? Can a person only be born again if they have turned away from the church and come back?
Do you think, without religion, that your outlook would have changed anyway due to maturity? I don't mean this as a belittling question as I understand the happiness and contentment you now have in your life. But, I have basically the same thing and I'm not religious at all.
No I don't. I was happy before. Happiness and joy are two different things. I am doing things now that I never thought I would do. I never thought I would be leading bible studies with my athletes (I coach swimming professionally), playing an active role in the children's ministry at church (it requires dancing around and I am rhythmically challenged), or attending small group meetings on Friday nights. These are things that I feel God has led me to do and nothing is more satisfying than doing Gods will. I have heard it said that "There is a God shaped hole in every persons heart that can only be filled with Him." That seems to fit my experience.
Village Idiot
04-01-04, 12:15 PM
Can a person only be born again if they have turned away from the church and come back?My take on this.
It does not matter if you have ever been in a church or not. What matters is this: Did you have a personal relationship with Jesus? If you accepted him, say as a child or young teen, that time would have been the moment of your "re-birth". I know people who were raised in the church and been "saved" all their lives. Others like me were born again later in life. You posed the question "but if my spirituality remained on an even keel". Would this imply that you did not truly believe in Jesus with your whole heart? That you were just simply going through the motions, hoping that your good deeds and church service would get you into heaven? If so, my answer to that is this, we can never be "good enough" by our actions and deeds to "earn" our way into heaven. I think alot of people make that mistake. The only way is through Jesus Christ and your "re-birth" would still await you if that was the case.
muff_spelunker
04-01-04, 01:15 PM
My take on this.
It does not matter if you have ever been in a church or not. What matters is this: Did you have a personal relationship with Jesus? If you accepted him, say as a child or young teen, that time would have been the moment of your "re-birth". I know people who were raised in the church and been "saved" all their lives. Others like me were born again later in life. You posed the question "but if my spirituality remained on an even keel". Would this imply that you did not truly believe in Jesus with your whole heart? That you were just simply going through the motions, hoping that your good deeds and church service would get you into heaven? If so, my answer to that is this, we can never be "good enough" by our actions and deeds to "earn" our way into heaven. I think alot of people make that mistake. The only way is through Jesus Christ and your "re-birth" would still await you if that was the case.
I see. So there is a difference between being saved and being born again. I guess my question was if you can earn a place in heaven without being born again. Being born again has nothing to do with religion then. It's just a term used by Christians to express their relationship with Christ.
Now, what is being saved?
Also, the ultimate decision is God's whether a person's soul enters heaven, is thrown into the abyss with Satan, or gets resurrected in the physical body after Armageddon. So a person believing they are saved or born again is inconsequential. The only thing it guides is the person's actions while still on Earth.
muff_spelunker
04-01-04, 01:19 PM
No I don't. I was happy before. Happiness and joy are two different things. I am doing things now that I never thought I would do. I never thought I would be leading bible studies with my athletes (I coach swimming professionally), playing an active role in the children's ministry at church (it requires dancing around and I am rhythmically challenged), or attending small group meetings on Friday nights. These are things that I feel God has led me to do and nothing is more satisfying than doing Gods will. I have heard it said that "There is a God shaped hole in every persons heart that can only be filled with Him." That seems to fit my experience.
Okay. Would you agree that you partake in these activities because of association? Since you are born again, you want to be around like-minded people and teach those coming in. It would equate to a person interested in joining a band hanging out with musicians. Your interest in doing these things is proportional to your relationship with God and you only do these things because you have been born again.
I see. So there is a difference between being saved and being born again. I guess my question was if you can earn a place in heaven without being born again. Being born again has nothing to do with religion then. It's just a term used by Christians to express their relationship with Christ.
Now, what is being saved?
Also, the ultimate decision is God's whether a person's soul enters heaven, is thrown into the abyss with Satan, or gets resurrected in the physical body after Armageddon. So a person believing they are saved or born again is inconsequential. The only thing it guides is the person's actions while still on Earth.
I think what Hasbeens posted above applies to your question.
"The Christian principle of being born again is the idea that whomever commits to following Jesus as Lord and accepts His offer of salvation by grace is given a brand new spirit -- a new part of the soul that reconnects people back to fellowship with God."
The "brand new spirit" is the key. Its what allows us to have fellowship with God. Not everyone will call it being born again. I think there are Christians in every denomination who fit the bill. Its making Jesus Lord of your life and allowing this new spirit a say in what you do and how you act.
Okay. Would you agree that you partake in these activities because of association? Since you are born again, you want to be around like-minded people and teach those coming in. It would equate to a person interested in joining a band hanging out with musicians. Your interest in doing these things is proportional to your relationship with God and you only do these things because you have been born again.
For me the analogy is more like a person with no interest in music and disdain for musicians suddenly deciding to join the band and hang out with musicians. I do not particularly enjoy the things I listed above (leading bible studies, etc.) Always there was some fear involved initially. I think God likes to use us in areas where we are weaker. I partake in them because I get a great deal of inner peace and satisfaction from them. Often times they make my life more difficult.
muff_spelunker
04-01-04, 03:19 PM
I partake in them because I get a great deal of inner peace and satisfaction from them. Often times they make my life more difficult.
That's a contradiction.
vpkozel
04-01-04, 03:21 PM
That's a contradiction.
Not really. Kids are similar. They are a boatload of work, but there is a unrestrained joy and proudness you feel when you see them accomplish something that makes all the work worth it.
That's a contradiction.
Not really. For example the bible studies I run for the swim team take place after practice on Saturdays when we don't have a meet. Its an extra two hours of my time away from the family on days when I am in town and home. That's significant when you consider that many months I am out of town 3 weekends. The preparation takes some time as well plus I am only now beginning to feel comfortable speaking on this subject in front of them after 3 years. My life was much less hectic before accepting Christ.
hasbeen99
04-01-04, 04:08 PM
The part about religion that has always hit me hard was the part were people use religion as an excuse to cause harm to others. As the old axiom goes, More people have been killed in the name of religion than from all the wars put together. Not sure of the veracity of that statement, but it has always given me pause.
But the thing you have to do is examine whether or not the religion in question was to blame. The Crusades, which is the most popular example given in favor of that axiom was not about the Bible at all. It was about politics and power. The men behind them just used the Christian religion as an excuse. I'm beginning to think it's the same situation with these terrorists and Islam, or at least the Qur'an. Learning how to make those distinctions is part of what this forum is about. :)
hasbeen99
04-01-04, 04:15 PM
Do you think, without religion, that your outlook would have changed anyway due to maturity? I don't mean this as a belittling question as I understand the happiness and contentment you now have in your life. But, I have basically the same thing and I'm not religious at all.
Just my $.02, because my experience is similar to Rob's...
Being 'born again' isn't so much becoming a 'better' person as it is becoming a different person. I use this analogy in one of the classes I teach: if your life was a car, being born again doesn't mean you're giving your old car a detail job. It means you're trading it in for an upgrade. It's more powerful, more fun, and it has lots of cool new features without as many breakdowns.
That may be oversimplifying it a bit, but I think the principle remains true.
hasbeen99
04-01-04, 04:19 PM
Evil exists in the world and throughout history has manifested itself disguised as something good.
I almost missed this, but it deserves to be highlighted. There's an awful lot of truth to this statement, and it's not just a Christian belief. To many it comes across as paranoia, but those of us who have 'been there and done that', know better.
Village Idiot
04-01-04, 04:29 PM
I see. So there is a difference between being saved and being born again. I guess my question was if you can earn a place in heaven without being born again. Being born again has nothing to do with religion then. It's just a term used by Christians to express their relationship with Christ.
Now, what is being saved?
Also, the ultimate decision is God's whether a person's soul enters heaven, is thrown into the abyss with Satan, or gets resurrected in the physical body after Armageddon. So a person believing they are saved or born again is inconsequential. The only thing it guides is the person's actions while still on Earth.OK...you've got me digging through my NIV. I came across this reference to the Book of John, chapter 3. Someone may have already made reference to this before but here goes.....
Born Again
A man named Nocodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council was questioning Jesus along these same lines (John 3:4) "How can a man be born when he is old"? vs. 5 Jesus "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to the flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, you must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit".
Born again also means born from above and is consistent with Jesus'redeeming work. Also Titus 3: 4-8
Saved
Also from the NIV in reference to Isiah 64:5
"You come to the help of all those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
Bit when we continue to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved."
Saved here means being "delivered" from Gods wrath or anger.
Mark 16:15, 16
He (Jesus) said unto them.
"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Saved here means being delivered from Gods final judgement. Lots of other references to being saved are found in the Old and New Testaments.
I hope that this helps in some way. These are very good questions muff and I aint the best with words and all.
hasbeen99
04-01-04, 04:34 PM
What I don't fully grasp is this: If I was raised Catholic from birth, attended church, followed the doctrines to my best (human) ability, and lived a good life but my spirituality stayed on an even keel throughout, would I not reap the benefit (I know that's not the proper word) of being born again? Can a person only be born again if they have turned away from the church and come back?
These are some of the areas where I disagree with my own understanding of Catholic philosophy and practice (which admittedly, I don't have a really strong grasp of). From what I've seen and heard of Catholicism, it seems as though the church tries to get its parishioners to 'behave' their way into believing. Start cleaning up your act and the better you are, the closer you'll be to God. The problem is, many people get frustrated and discouraged by all the rules and hoops they have to jump through to get to God, and they quit without ever experiencing Him for themselves. To make matters worse, Catholicism uses the fear tactic of telling its people that if they leave, they're doomed and lose their salvation. I really hope I'm wrong on that, but that's what I've gathered so far, and it would seem to fit your question.
The good news is, that's not what the Bible teaches at all. The Bible says to humble ourselves and seek a relationship with Jesus Himself first. Get to know Him by studying the Bible, through prayer, and by just looking for His influence in the world around us. As that relationship builds, He will gradually change us from the inside out supernaturally. And the more we allow Him to change us, the more we will think and act like Him. It's a snowball effect, really, just like any other relationship. The more time and effort you put into it, the better it gets. And the better it gets, the more time and effort you want to put into it.
Being born again has absolutely nothing to do with church. It's a transaction that happens between the individual and God alone.
hasbeen99
04-01-04, 04:48 PM
I see. So there is a difference between being saved and being born again.
Yes. Born again people are saved. But according to what Jesus said in the passage I quoted above, no one is saved without being born again.
I guess my question was if you can earn a place in heaven without being born again.
No one can 'earn' a place in heaven, according to the Bible.
Romans 3:10
"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one...'"
Being born again has nothing to do with religion then. It's just a term used by Christians to express their relationship with Christ.
Correct. Being born again is a transaction; an event, not a rule.
hasbeen99
04-01-04, 05:01 PM
Now, what is being saved?
Being 'saved' is claiming Jesus' promise that His sacrifice on the cross has saved you from being judged for your own sin. It is the belief that He has already taken your punishment for you. That is what grace is.
Also, the ultimate decision is God's whether a person's soul enters heaven, is thrown into the abyss with Satan, or gets resurrected in the physical body after Armageddon. So a person believing they are saved or born again is inconsequential. The only thing it guides is the person's actions while still on Earth.
Christian faith is a trust in both what God has done, and what He will do. Jesus promised to give His followers 'life in abundance'. That life starts when we're born again. For me, it started Thanksgiving Day, 1999. He has 'saved' me from things in this life, but I'm still waiting for Him to save me from His judgment because it hasn't happened yet. You could say that being born again happens now, and being saved happens later, in the eternal sense.
But that hardly means it's inconsequential. Being born again and living out that belief opens up a whole new life for all of us. It's a rich life full of purpose and meaning, love and friendship, acceptance and encouragment. I firmly believe it's a life that cannot be found by any other means.
muff_spelunker
04-02-04, 10:40 AM
Being 'saved' is claiming Jesus' promise that His sacrifice on the cross has saved you from being judged for your own sin. It is the belief that He has already taken your punishment for you. That is what grace is.
Shoot. I knew and accepted that Jesus died for our sins as a little lass. Was I saved back then? Since I don't follow religion anymore and live my life as I know it was intended, am I no longer saved?
Christian faith is a trust in both what God has done, and what He will do. Jesus promised to give His followers 'life in abundance'. That life starts when we're born again. For me, it started Thanksgiving Day, 1999. He has 'saved' me from things in this life, but I'm still waiting for Him to save me from His judgment because it hasn't happened yet. You could say that being born again happens now, and being saved happens later, in the eternal sense.
Confusion again. VI said earlier "I know people who were raised in the church and been "saved" all their lives." You say it comes later.
But that hardly means it's inconsequential. Being born again and living out that belief opens up a whole new life for all of us. It's a rich life full of purpose and meaning, love and friendship, acceptance and encouragment. I firmly believe it's a life that cannot be found by any other means.
It's a rich Christian life is what you meant to say. I'm sure there are millions of non-Christians that have a "rich life full of purpose and meaning, love and friendship, acceptance and encouragement".
It's inconsequential in that no matter what a human might think or feel or believe, the decision on whether the person is "saved" is up to God.
muff_spelunker
04-02-04, 10:50 AM
OK...you've got me digging through my NIV. I came across this reference to the Book of John, chapter 3. Someone may have already made reference to this before but here goes.....
Born Again
A man named Nocodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council was questioning Jesus along these same lines (John 3:4) "How can a man be born when he is old"? vs. 5 Jesus "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to the flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, you must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit".
Born again also means born from above and is consistent with Jesus'redeeming work. Also Titus 3: 4-8
Saved
Also from the NIV in reference to Isiah 64:5
"You come to the help of all those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
Bit when we continue to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved."
Saved here means being "delivered" from Gods wrath or anger.
Mark 16:15, 16
He (Jesus) said unto them.
"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Saved here means being delivered from Gods final judgement. Lots of other references to being saved are found in the Old and New Testaments.
I hope that this helps in some way. These are very good questions muff and I aint the best with words and all.
You're doing great VI. I didn't know it would get this indepth when I asked the question. It's all a bit confusing to me and I never really understood the whole concept. The Christian religion I was raised in didn't use the terms "saved" or "born again". Even after you, Rob, and Hasbeens explaining, I still don't have a good grasp of it.
i think she's meaning to say, you can get the same satisfaction outta life from just differing your perspective.
But then again...if the roadwarrior says it, it must be true.
:rofl:
hasbeen99
04-02-04, 01:11 PM
Shoot. I knew and accepted that Jesus died for our sins as a little lass. Was I saved back then?
Almost certainly.
Since I don't follow religion anymore and live my life as I know it was intended, am I no longer saved?
Being saved means you're depending on Jesus to save you from judgment through a relationship with Him. Jesus said He will not save those He does not know. So the question to you is, do you still know Him? Are you still pursuing a relationship with Him?
hasbeen99
04-02-04, 01:37 PM
Confusion again. VI said earlier "I know people who were raised in the church and been "saved" all their lives." You say it comes later.
Some people choose a Christian life and are fostered in it from the earliest ages. As soon as they're aware enough to make a choice for Jesus, they make it. My wife made that choice at 9 years old and never looked back. From the time she could walk and talk, she's always gone to church, always prayed and since she could read it, always read her Bible. She hasn't always been saved in the technical sense, but at the same time she's never known the life that VI, Rob, and you and I have -- a life lived without God in it.
vpkozel
04-02-04, 01:41 PM
but at the same time she's never known the life that VI, Rob, and you and I have -- a life lived without God in it.
That is what I was getting at in my other thread. I just can't comprehend that. I mean, I think I am very lucky, but it's just really interesting to me how y'all did it.
hasbeen99
04-02-04, 02:05 PM
It's a rich Christian life is what you meant to say. I'm sure there are millions of non-Christians that have a "rich life full of purpose and meaning, love and friendship, acceptance and encouragement".
Certainly. But there is a supernatural aspect to a Christian life that is unique and cannot be discounted. To be a Christian is to have an interactive, every day relationship with God Himself. GOD. The real deal. It's not about checking off all the boxes or jumping through hoops in hopes that you get to see Him someday.
To have God as an active and intimate part of your life is truly incredible. And the closer you get to Him, the more incredible it becomes. I'm blown away by it all the time, and I hope I never stop being blown away by it.
hasbeen99
04-02-04, 02:36 PM
Even after you, Rob, and Hasbeens explaining, I still don't have a good grasp of it.
I'm sorry, Muff. Looking back, I've probably drowned you in 'churchspeak' in this thread. Lemme try to put it in simpler terms.
We're all comprised of three parts: our bodies, our conscious will, and our spirit (some refer to this as our soul). The labels vary, but those are the basic components. At some point in time, our souls die due to our separation from God caused by sin. In other words, our will and our natural desires overcome our soul.
When we submit to Jesus and ask Him to come into our lives, He brings that dead soul back to life so we're complete again. That is what being 'born again' means. Then God sends the Holy Spirit to help us live out the abundant life Jesus promised.
Does that clear things up a bit?
To have God as an active and intimate part of your life is truly incredible. And the closer you get to Him, the more incredible it becomes. I'm blown away by it all the time, and I hope I never stop being blown away by it.
:applause:
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