Free Churches to Speak on Politics

[hanger4]

Rep. Jones: Free Churches to Speak on Politics

Under current law, any pastor or minister who uses his pulpit to speak out about moral issues could jeopardize the tax-exempt status of his house of worship.
But Rep. Walter Jones, R-NC, wants that to change.
"I believe that America's strength is the fact that it is built on Judeo-Christian values," Jones told NewsMax on Friday.
"If the spiritual leaders of America don't have the First Amendment right, the freedom to speak on the moral and political issues of the day and who stands for morality, then ten years down the line America will have no morality."
Jones was talking about a political gag order that dates back to 1954 when then-Senator Lyndon Johnson inserted a ban on political speech as a floor amendment in order to silence certain organizations that were opposing him in the Democratic Party.
As a result, houses of worship cannot engage in a single activity which might be regarded as partisan, for fear of losing their tax exempt status. But with the 2004 election shaping up as a battle royale on the cultural issues front, Rep. Jones says it's time to call in the cavalry.
His bill, HR 235 would allow clergy the same First Amendment rights all American citizens enjoy in order to address the moral issues of our times.
Franklin Graham, in a letter to President Bush, complained that the 1954 law "forbids Houses of Worship to speak out on any kind of moral issue that may be considered 'politically partisan.'"
In other words, churches could not instruct their people on abortion, gay marriage, human cloning, or euthanasia.
In October of 2000, in a blatant attempt to intimidate churches, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State warned pastors, "The First Amendment of the U. S. Constitution protects the right of pastors and church leaders to speak out on religious, moral and political issues. However, houses of worship, as non-profit entities under Section 501 (c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Service Tax Code, are barred from endorsing or opposing candidates for any public office and may not intervene directly or indirectly in partisan campaigns."
The left wing group complains on its website, "H.R. 235, sponsored by Rep. Walter Jones (R-NC), would turn the inner sanctuaries and pulpits of America’s houses of worship into partisan political rally halls."
Still, Jones is undaunted. "We need people who will call their member of Congress as well as the leadership of the House and tell them that they support H. R. 235," he told NewsMax.

Credit where credit is due
http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/4/123306.shtml
I don't have a problem with it, seems to me most do anyway.

[VOR]

Franklin Graham, in a letter to President Bush, complained that the 1954 law "forbids Houses of Worship to speak out on any kind of moral issue that may be considered 'politically partisan.'"
In other words, churches could not instruct their people on abortion, gay marriage, human cloning, or euthanasia.

You fuckin holy rollers are total ass holes. how can these issues be considered politically partisan? If churches are gonna start preaching politics then they should start paying any taxes applicable to any business entity. They no longer are houses of worship but media outlets for political parties.

[hanger4]

but media outlets for political parties
And Labor Unions aren't ?

[VOR]

And Labor Unions aren't ?

Nope they are labor organizations which must use policial means to secure workers rights. If the churches want theocracy then they should be outlawed and banned as commies are.

[hanger4]

Nope they are labor organizations which must use policial means to secure workers rights. If the churches want theocracy then they should be outlawed and banned as commies are.
The Internal Revenue Code allows exemption under 25 categories, including charities, labor unions, social clubs, and credit unions.
Labor Unions are tax exempt just like churches so why not equal access ?
"commies" ain't banned bro; http://www.cpusa.org/

[VOR]

The Internal Revenue Code allows exemption under 25 categories, including charities, labor unions, social clubs, and credit unions.
Labor Unions are tax exempt just like churches so why not equal access ?
"commies" ain't banned bro; http://www.cpusa.org/

Because then they stop being churches and start being mass media outlets.

[T_Schroll]

Because then they stop being churches and start being mass media outlets.

You might want to tell Jessie Jackson how you feel about this subject. You can count on the Dems going into the black churches to whip up the masses. Hell, just today Kerry was in one giving a highly political speech followed by political comments for the preacher. Who'd a thunk it.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Rep. Jones: Free Churches to Speak on Politics

Under current law, any pastor or minister who uses his pulpit to speak out about moral issues could jeopardize the tax-exempt status of his house of worship.
that is a complete mischaracterization of the law. "any pastor who uses his pulpit to speak out about moral issues"? my ass. now if they decide to start endorsing candidates, that's a different matter.

don't like it when the dems do it, don't like it when the gop does it.

i'm not a big fan of labor unions either, but they've got rules as well as to how they spend their money on politics...

[vpkozel]

Aren't there some Jewish areas in NY State that vote the way that their rabbi tells them? I swear that when Hillary was running for Senate, she and here opponent were meeting with the church leaders in an attempt to get their votes. How did they get around this law?

[VOR]

You might want to tell Jessie Jackson how you feel about this subject. You can count on the Dems going into the black churches to whip up the masses. Hell, just today Kerry was in one giving a highly political speech followed by political comments for the preacher. Who'd a thunk it.

when does jesse jackson preach from the pulpit? You may want to tell pat robertson to get off the air then.

[VOR]

You might want to tell Jessie Jackson how you feel about this subject. You can count on the Dems going into the black churches to whip up the masses. Hell, just today Kerry was in one giving a highly political speech followed by political comments for the preacher. Who'd a thunk it.

this was during the religious service?

[T_Schroll]

when does jesse jackson preach from the pulpit? You may want to tell pat robertson to get off the air then.

Just pointing out your spin on things is always one sided. The Left is never held to the same standards as the Right on this issue.

[hasbeen99]

Churches have no business endorsing political candidates, IMO. Plenty of other important matters to discuss on Sunday mornings.

[vpkozel]

While I tend to agree with you hasbeens, I think that the real question is "is it fair taht churches have to live up to a higher standard of fre speech than other tax exempt organizations?"

[slydevl]

While I tend to agree with you hasbeens, I think that the real question is "is it fair taht churches have to live up to a higher standard of fre speech than other tax exempt organizations?"

Churches should not endorse politicians but they can certainly endorse certain platforms and educate their congregations as to who supports or doesn't support that platform.

[vpkozel]

Churches should not endorse politicians but they can certainly endorse certain platforms and educate their congregations as to who supports or doesn't support that platform.

Again, I generally agree with you, but other charitable organizations are allowed to endorse specific candidates or run ads in their favor. If churches are not allowed to do this, isn't that restricting their free speech?

Also, what would happen if a pastor ran for public office?

[Superfluous_Nut]

Again, I generally agree with you, but other charitable organizations are allowed to endorse specific candidates or run ads in their favor. If churches are not allowed to do this, isn't that restricting their free speech?

Also, what would happen if a pastor ran for public office?
there are rules for other charitable organizations as well.

honestly, i don't understand tax exempt status as being related to the first ammendment (tax exemption is not a right). i also don't understand how labor organizations are tax exempt. charities i understand and there's nothing stopping churches from starting charitable organizations that they run.

[vpkozel]

honestly, i don't understand tax exempt status as being related to the first ammendment (tax exemption is not a right).

I agree with you - but if all of these organizations are supposed to abide by the same rules, but the rules are only being applied to some of them, then that would be a problem, IMO.

[hasbeen99]

While I tend to agree with you hasbeens, I think that the real question is "is it fair taht churches have to live up to a higher standard of fre speech than other tax exempt organizations?"

Again, I generally agree with you, but other charitable organizations are allowed to endorse specific candidates or run ads in their favor. If churches are not allowed to do this, isn't that restricting their free speech?


You could probably make a strong case for a double standard where churches are concerned, VP, but I'm not really that concerned about making sure everything's "fair" as far as options for the church goes. Churches are probably trying to do too many things as it is, IMO. They have a specific job to do, and it doesn't have anything to do with politics. I'm speaking of the Judeo/Christian church here.

There are other vehicles out there for discussing politicians and legislation outside of the church -- magazines, talk radio, etc. I've got no problem if James Dobson wants to endorse President Bush on Focus on the Family, but if my pastor starts telling me to call my congressman to block HR***, I'm going to be a little irked. Churches only get an hour or so a week. There are much better ways to make use of that time.


Also, what would happen if a pastor ran for public office?

You mean, do I think his church should be able to endorse him? No. I don't. Should he get to campaign on Sundays? No, he shouldn't. But that's just my opinion.

[vpkozel]

You mean, do I think his church should be able to endorse him? No. I don't. Should he get to campaign on Sundays? No, he shouldn't. But that's just my opinion.

Would he also have to "resign his commision," go inactive, or whatnot. Many governemental positions are part time - so say he is a mayor or councilman. Would he still be able to hold his day job?

[slydevl]

You could probably make a strong case for a double standard where churches are concerned, VP, but I'm not really that concerned about making sure everything's "fair" as far as options for the church goes. Churches are probably trying to do too many things as it is, IMO. They have a specific job to do, and it doesn't have anything to do with politics. I'm speaking of the Judeo/Christian church here.

There are other vehicles out there for discussing politicians and legislation outside of the church -- magazines, talk radio, etc. I've got no problem if James Dobson wants to endorse President Bush on Focus on the Family, but if my pastor starts telling me to call my congressman to block HR***, I'm going to be a little irked. Churches only get an hour or so a week. There are much better ways to make use of that time.




You mean, do I think his church should be able to endorse him? No. I don't. Should he get to campaign on Sundays? No, he shouldn't. But that's just my opinion.

Depends on what HR*** is. If it outlaws abortion I think a pastor has every right to tell his congregation to vote for it.

[VOR]

there are rules for other charitable organizations as well.

honestly, i don't understand tax exempt status as being related to the first ammendment (tax exemption is not a right). i also don't understand how labor organizations are tax exempt. charities i understand and there's nothing stopping churches from starting charitable organizations that they run.

It's not about 1st amendment, it's about the definition of a church. Churches are not political entities when they start being them then they stop being churches which leaves the physical plant and stuff open to being taxed. that it what franklin graham is trying to protect is changing his church into a PAC with the tax structure of a church.

[hasbeen99]

Would he also have to "resign his commision," go inactive, or whatnot. Many governemental positions are part time - so say he is a mayor or councilman. Would he still be able to hold his day job?

I know many pastors of small churches have had to work second jobs to keep the bills paid. I don't know if a denomination would force a pastor to choose between the two, but then again, I think most denominations usually float the pastor's salary completely or supplement it long enough to get the church off the ground.

As for my take on it, I think if there was a way to keep the two jobs from meshing together, I guess a pastor could pull it off if he had to. But I don't think it's a good idea at all. Pastoring is a full-time job, regardless of the pay. The same could probably be said of the best politicians. I don't see how anyone could do both well.

[hasbeen99]

Depends on what HR*** is. If it outlaws abortion I think a pastor has every right to tell his congregation to vote for it.

But if it did, and he's been teaching the Word, would he really have to?

[Superfluous_Nut]

Depends on what HR*** is. If it outlaws abortion I think a pastor has every right to tell his congregation to vote for it.
it's funny how the double standard is suddenly so obvious to people who couldn't see it when gay marriage is brought up.