A theory

[vpkozel]

Maybe God's plan for us - and our route to being saved - is all within our hands. Maybe His end goal is to have us prove His existence or locate Him, and the saved are thise that believed in Him without that scientific proof.

What if it was all one big scavenger hunt?

[hasbeen99]

If that were true, then why did Jesus subject Himself to torture and death?

[vpkozel]

If that were true, then why did Jesus subject Himself to torture and death?

Maybe that was all part of the plan. Without him, maybe the US never leaves mother England and the idea of free worship without persecution never happens.

And while he did subject himself to crucifiction, the fact taht he asked God why he forsaked him is pretty good proof that he was having second thoughts, right? But I don't think that Jesus dying for our sins has anything to do with when Judgement Day occurs, does it?

All of this dicussion about God and science has just gotten me thinking.

[hasbeen99]

Before I dig into this hypothesis with you, I gotta ask. Are you being serious, or is this just a whimsical hypothetical?

[vpkozel]

Before I dig into this hypothesis with you, I gotta ask. Are you being serious, or is this just a whimsical hypothetical?

I am being totally serious, but I could be way off base. But I believe that after God created the universe He basically has let it function on its own. And this would seem to fit with that. If He did this, He had to know that at some point we would either be able to prove or disprove His existence, wouldn't He?

[hasbeen99]

I am being totally serious, but I could be way off base. But I believe that after God created the universe He basically has let it function on its own. And this would seem to fit with that. If He did this, He had to know that at some point we would either be able to prove or disprove His existence, wouldn't He?

It's hard to say. For this hypothesis to have merit, you basically have to throw out the Bible completely. Without that, it's hard to know much of anything about the nature and properties of God Himself.

We can conclude that there is a God and He created the universe from the Intelligent Design theory. I could see how we could infer that for the most part the universe pretty much runs itself, based on the consistencies and patterns we observe. I'd argue, however, that there are too many anomalies in history, both past and present to conclude He's completely hands-off, though.

So far we've got a God who's got to be immortal, if not eternal, to have had enough time to create everything we see, assuming scientific carbon dating is anywhere near accurate. He's got to be free from dependencies on the physical realm, because He had to have existed before they did to have created them. From that we could conclude he's ethereal. Spirit, energy, whatever.

But the level of intelligence of a Creator means also having consciousness and will, so He couldn't be just an energy source. So we can narrow Him down to spirit.

But even if we can infer that much from the evidence of creation, we can know little, if anything, about His character or intent. How do we know if He cares? Why would He?

And I'll counter your question with another question -- how could we possibly hope to 'prove' the existence of an ethereal being with only physical means?

[vpkozel]

It's hard to say. For this hypothesis to have merit, you basically have to throw out the Bible completely. Without that, it's hard to know much of anything about the nature and properties of God Himself.


Why? I don't think that Creationism and Evoluton are at odds, so why would this be a problem? Maybe I am missing something?

I have to leave for the beach for Easter. I hope that you all have a wonderful weekend and a great Easter.

[hasbeen99]

Why? I don't think that Creationism and Evoluton are at odds, so why would this be a problem? Maybe I am missing something?

I wasn't referring to Creationism vs. Evolution. I'm talking about a game of hide-and-seek for the ages vs. the Biblical account of God's relationship with man. The two are irreconcilable.

[hasbeen99]

I have to leave for the beach for Easter. I hope that you all have a wonderful weekend and a great Easter.

Have a great one, man. :xyzthumbs

[vpkozel]

I wasn't referring to Creationism vs. Evolution. I'm talking about a game of hide-and-seek for the ages vs. the Biblical account of God's relationship with man. The two are irreconcilable.

OK. I did not say hide and seek, I said scavenger hunt - meaning that he laid out the path towards him with clues that be revealed as we advanced. I think that is a very big difference. The "clues" - science and archeology included - build upon each other until we finally know the right place to "find" God.

Does that make more sense?

[hasbeen99]

OK. I did not say hide and seek, I said scavenger hunt - meaning that he laid out the path towards him with clues that be revealed as we advanced. I think that is a very big difference. The "clues" - science and archeology included - build upon each other until we finally know the right place to "find" God.

Does that make more sense?

Okay, but if it's all about us finding God, why is He hidden from us? Why not just reveal Himself?

[Superfluous_Nut]

Okay, but if it's all about us finding God, why is He hidden from us? Why not just reveal Himself?
it's a test of faith.

[hasbeen99]

it's a test of faith.

But why test us?

[Isaac OddVelvet]

it's like that whole teach a man to fish aphorism. If he just said, "here I am" then we learn nothing. If we have to work for it and have the freedom to make mistakes along the way we learn and grow.

[hasbeen99]

it's like that whole teach a man to fish aphorism. If he just said, "here I am" then we learn nothing. If we have to work for it and have the freedom to make mistakes along the way we learn and grow.

But what are we to learn by searching and following a trail of clues that we could not learn from God directly?

[Isaac OddVelvet]

But what are we to learn by searching and following a trail of clues that we could not learn from God directly?

To think for ourselves.

[hasbeen99]

To think for ourselves.

Okay, but consider the example of a human family. Can a parent not teach his or her children to think for themselves while they live at home?

And if the reason for the separation is to teach us to think for ourselves, wouldn't that negate the whole purpose of His leading us back to Him?

[Isaac OddVelvet]

Okay, but consider the example of a human family. Can a parent not teach his or her children to think for themselves while they live at home?

And if the reason for the separation is to teach us to think for ourselves, wouldn't that negate the whole purpose of His leading us back to Him?

there's a book called "Towing Jehova" by James Morrow. the premise is that God dies and his corpse falls to earth. The vatican sends a priest on a supertanker to tow the corpse to the north pole and freeze it inside an iceberg. on the way there the priest is trying to figure out the meaning and consequences of the death of god. he eventually comes to the conclusion that god, as the father, at some point needs to step aside to allow his children to grow. sounds a lot like what you're saying. But I don't think that God needs to die in order to step aside. Think of the relationship you have or had with your parents after you'd grown up. It's different than the one you had as a child, more equal and closer in a way. You aren't helpless anymore and the love comes from freewill, not just the fact that they gave birth to you.

[hasbeen99]

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. :thinking:

Maybe what VP is trying to say is that the Biblical account is correct in this: we are all separated from God by our own sin, but He wants us each to find our way back to Him and He's left all sorts of clues to help us do that -- the Bible, nature, and the testimonies of countless believers.

If that is what he's saying, then yes, I could agree with that analogy to a point. But I still think that leaves a lot of holes open.

On a broader scale, it seems like the scavenger hunt scenario is almost a common thread through most major belief systems. The problem is, how do we know which clues to trust? They do not all lead in the same direction.


I hafta head home. I'll jump back in on this tomorrow morning. :)

[Superfluous_Nut]

well, i think what vp's throwing out there is what if we're all supposed to have faith without proof. and the clues god has left are there to essentially "trap" those without true faith into finding god and thus ending the big game.

this goes in line with the idea that faith cannot exist with absolute proof (faith requires not knowing for sure, but still believing). once we find god, then nobody would be able to have faith in him anymore (tho i suppose they could still have faith in his future actions maybe). if only those with faith in god are saved, then the only saved people would be those that had faith prior to the discovery of god.

the second aspect is that god knows this and has purposefully (since he's in charge) laid out clues that will eventually lead the people to his discovery. presumably the only people searching are those without faith, so it's a bit of a trap for them. the less faith, the quicker the game ends.

[Superfluous_Nut]

But why test us?
don't ask me, ask god!

seriously, tho. you could ask "why?" for anything. why did god create us?

[vpkozel]

Okay, but if it's all about us finding God, why is He hidden from us? Why not just reveal Himself?

I do not mean that He stays hidden from us or is not a part of our lives. But maybe His plan for the return is that we find Him, and that we can prove it to all those who do not believe.

It's kind of like a parent/child. I could easily do Filip's homework for him, but I would prefer to have him find the answers and work through it - with my help if he needs it - because by doing itself he will have a greater appreciation for the work it took and me as well.

I did not mean to portray this theory as a negative thing.

[vpkozel]

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. :thinking:

Maybe what VP is trying to say is that the Biblical account is correct in this: we are all separated from God by our own sin, but He wants us each to find our way back to Him and He's left all sorts of clues to help us do that -- the Bible, nature, and the testimonies of countless believers.

If that is what he's saying, then yes, I could agree with that analogy to a point. But I still think that leaves a lot of holes open.

On a broader scale, it seems like the scavenger hunt scenario is almost a common thread through most major belief systems. The problem is, how do we know which clues to trust? They do not all lead in the same direction.


I hafta head home. I'll jump back in on this tomorrow morning. :)

Jesus said that He will be returning to judge the living and the dead. No one knows when that is going to be – although my guess is still Game 7 of a Red Sox-Cubs World Series. But maybe it is not really going to be a case of Jesus returning so much as it will be a case of us finding Him.

Does that make it more clear?

[hasbeen99]

don't ask me, ask god!

seriously, tho. you could ask "why?" for anything. why did god create us?

That's kind of the point I made earlier. The Bible answers questions like that -- Why are we separated from God? Why did God create us? But if VP's hypothesis is correct, and all this is just a game, the Bible is off. Way off. Apart from that, how can we possibly find the 'real' answers?

[hasbeen99]

I do not mean that He stays hidden from us or is not a part of our lives. But maybe His plan for the return is that we find Him, and that we can prove it to all those who do not believe.

Depending on how you're defining 'find', many throughout history have claimed to have already found Him. Even today, the likes of Billy Graham would tell you he has an interactive relationship with God, and he has committed his life to proving His existence to all who don't believe.


It's kind of like a parent/child. I could easily do Filip's homework for him, but I would prefer to have him find the answers and work through it - with my help if he needs it - because by doing itself he will have a greater appreciation for the work it took and me as well.

Okay, but parents teach their children to be independent because they know they won't be around forever. God will. And the Bible teaches dependence, not independence, so I'm having a hard time trying to reconcile that with the supposition that the reason for the spiritual scavenger hunt is to make us independent thinkers. :thinking:


I did not mean to portray this theory as a negative thing.

I don't see it as a negative thing, really. At least not yet. It's an interesting new perspective I've never explored before.

[hasbeen99]

Jesus said that He will be returning to judge the living and the dead. ...But maybe it is not really going to be a case of Jesus returning so much as it will be a case of us finding Him.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but when you talk about 'finding Jesus', I get the impression you're saying He's hiding in some jungle or cave or desert somewhere, and He's been there the whole time. I don't think that's what you're saying, though. Could you talk a little more about what you mean by 'finding' God?

[vpkozel]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but when you talk about 'finding Jesus', I get the impression you're saying He's hiding in some jungle or cave or desert somewhere, and He's been there the whole time. I don't think that's what you're saying, though. Could you talk a little more about what you mean by 'finding' God?

I do not mean that he is hiding from us. And while I am oversimplifying things a bit, when I say "find" Jesus, I mean that the whole return/judgment/rapture events are set into motion by our advance as a society and a race getting to a place in knowledge where it is time for Him to allow us to see Him.

And I think that He wants that so very badly, but He wants us to be ready. That is why He must wait. Maybe He wants to give as many people as possible a chance to accept Him. Maybe a reconcilliation of science and religion has some unknown consequence.

I don't know all of it, the idea just kind of popped ito my head and I thought it was interesting.

[hasbeen99]

I do not mean that he is hiding from us. And while I am oversimplifying things a bit, when I say "find" Jesus, I mean that the whole return/judgment/rapture events are set into motion by our advance as a society and a race getting to a place in knowledge where it is time for Him to allow us to see Him.

I don't really see how the intellegence or sophistication level of our society could have much to do with Christ's return. I don't see the relevance or the correlation. But of course, just because I can't see it or don't understand it doesn't mean it's not there. :)


And I think that He wants that so very badly, but He wants us to be ready. That is why He must wait. Maybe He wants to give as many people as possible a chance to accept Him. Maybe a reconcilliation of science and religion has some unknown consequence.

Giving as many people as possible a chance to accept Him is one of my pet theories on His return date. But the thing I wonder is, for that to be possible, does that mean there will come a point in the future when the 'last' person will accept Him. That just seems a bit strange to me. A bit of a reach.

Your second possibility (a reconciliation of science and religion having some unknown consequence) is probably just as likely, now that I think about it. It's hard to see the 'ripple' effect of so many things that happen in our society.

This is one of the areas where I think the Bible is intentionally vague. We are not meant to know when He's coming back. The reason, I believe, is that Jesus wants us to live as though He might be coming back any minute. If we knew when the date was, or even what the trigger was that would set the sequence in motion, would we not be tempted to live by our rules until the last possible moment? IMO, it would be much more dangerous spiritually to know when His return will be than to live in ignorance.

[vpkozel]

I don't really see how the intellegence or sophistication level of our society could have much to do with Christ's return. I don't see the relevance or the correlation. But of course, just because I can't see it or don't understand it doesn't mean it's not there. :)

Really? I mean if a guy shows up tomorrow and claims to be Jesus, you aren;t going to be even just a little bit skeptical? Now, if said guy shows up with scientific proof that He is Jesus, how many people would still be skeptical. Didn't He say that we would know it was Him? Wouldn;t He want a way to distinguish Himself from the false prophets God warned us about.

Everyone jokes that if Jesus showed up today He'd be locked up in a loony bin and that is probably true. So He needs a different method of proving He is who He says He is. Maybe science is a large part of that equation.

[hasbeen99]

Really? I mean if a guy shows up tomorrow and claims to be Jesus, you aren;t going to be even just a little bit skeptical? Now, if said guy shows up with scientific proof that He is Jesus, how many people would still be skeptical. Didn't He say that we would know it was Him? Wouldn;t He want a way to distinguish Himself from the false prophets God warned us about.

Everyone jokes that if Jesus showed up today He'd be locked up in a loony bin and that is probably true. So He needs a different method of proving He is who He says He is. Maybe science is a large part of that equation.

If the real Jesus -- as outlined in the Bible -- shows up tomorrow, there won't be a doubt in anyone's mind Who it is. It will be quite spectacular.

Anything less, and I will completely discount whoever it is.

[vpkozel]

If the real Jesus -- as outlined in the Bible -- shows up tomorrow, there won't be a doubt in anyone's mind Who it is. It will be quite spectacular.

Isn't it fairly vague as to how he will prove himself?

Maybe some of the spectacular parts will be reconciling science to faith.

[hasbeen99]

Revelation 1:7
"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him..."

According to the Bible, Jesus will return from the clouds, and everyone on the planet will see Him. And when He gets here, he'll begin supernaturally slaughtering those who have sided with the antichrist.

[vpkozel]

According to the Bible, Jesus will return from the clouds, and everyone on the planet will see Him. And when He gets here, he'll begin supernaturally slaughtering those who have sided with the antichrist.

So you are saying nyet on the vagueness then. :)

Never claimed to be a Bible expert.....

Am I getting Him returning confused with the Rapture and the Judgement?

[hasbeen99]

So you are saying nyet on the vagueness then. :)

:D


Am I getting Him returning confused with the Rapture and the Judgement?

Possibly. I seem to remember Turbo using the term 'vague' regarding the Rapture in the "Hell" thread. In the theory of pre-Tribulation Rapture of the church, Jesus comes to earth and takes all living believers in the blink of an eye, then He's gone back to heaven again. No one knows when it will happen or what will trigger it. But that's just a theory.

When He comes back to stay (i.e. for judgment and His millenial reign), there will be no mistaking Him. He'll be the One on the white horse with angels by His side and kicking some serious butt on the armies of the antichrist. :evil3:

[vpkozel]

Possibly. I seem to remember Turbo using the term 'vague' regarding the Rapture in the "Hell" thread. In the theory of pre-Tribulation Rapture of the church, Jesus comes to earth and takes all living believers in the blink of an eye, then He's gone back to heaven again. No one knows when it will happen or what will trigger it. But that's just a theory.

When He comes back to stay (i.e. for judgment and His millenial reign), there will be no mistaking Him. He'll be the One on the white horse with angels by His side and kicking some serious butt on the armies of the antichrist. :evil3:

OK, so maybe it goes like this. Someone "find" God by proving He exists, which triggers the Rapture. The true believers are taken away at the Rapture, and those that are left are left with scientific proof that God does indeed exist. They are given a little while to mull over there options and then they have to chose God or the other side.

Those that don't get the Jesus doing his impersonation of Michael Douglas in Falling Down.

[hasbeen99]

I guess the sticking point for me is still finding 'scientific proof'. I just don't see how it's possible to prove the existence of a supernatural being by natural means. By definition, proof is nothing more than compelling evidence. Whether or not evidence is compelling is up to the individual, and millions of individuals today say 'proof' already exists... at least for them, anyway.

I think I get what you're saying though. You're talking about some kind of enormous discovery or revelation never before seen. Not to be funny, but something like finding a fully-powered Ark of the Covenant, yes?

[vpkozel]

I think I get what you're saying though. You're talking about some kind of enormous discovery or revelation never before seen. Not to be funny, but something like finding a fully-powered Ark of the Covenant, yes?

Yeah, something like that, or maybe even more than that. Maybe we find archaelogical sites that validate ALL the stories in both books of the Bible. Maybe there is a find that proves Moses brought plagues and split the Red Sea. Maybe we find Noah's Ark. But maybe they are all just clues leading to God.

That is why I was talking about a scavenger hunt. Maybe once we find all of the clues that God wants us to find, then we will have reached a point where He thinks it is time for the Second Coming, or the rapture, or whatever that may be.

So maybe it's not a case of proving God, but more a case of collecting all of the pieces and putting the puzzle together in the right way.

[VOR]

That's kind of the point I made earlier. The Bible answers questions like that -- Why are we separated from God? Why did God create us? But if VP's hypothesis is correct, and all this is just a game, the Bible is off. Way off. Apart from that, how can we possibly find the 'real' answers?

Nah you're being burkean and taking the negative tack. It is all a scavenger, regardless of what the Baptists say there's more to it than just mouthing the words. Until you can enter a situation like a child and have no fear or resort the nasties, you are just not heaven material. Consider the case of Issac, clearly he knew what his father was doing but wasn't afraid, clearly Abraham knew what he was doing but followed through without question. The lives most of us lead tend to put us in situations where we violate our ethics on a minor scale and for me anyways causes me some duress, later in what are perhaps more important situations knowing the past I tend to not repeat it. So I would tend to agree with VP's analogy, that along the way you are here to pick up understand of how fear and loathing and so on function so as to not let them affect the beingness.