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builder
04-09-04, 10:31 AM
Found this link on a friend's webpage. Found it interesting. THougths?


http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040408.wxharpur08/BNStory/Entertainment/



It is disconcerting, to say the least, for Canada's best-known religion writer to decide that Jesus Christ did not exist.

That is the contention of Tom Harpur's new book, The Pagan Christ. The former Anglican priest and Toronto Star religion editor for the past 35 years, has come to believe that there was never a man named Jesus, and that most of the miracles and wonders ascribed to him in the New Testament did not happen.

Even more astonishing, he argues that most of the Christ story was borrowed by the early church from ancient religions, which the church then suppressed in "the greatest cover-up of all time."

The chief religion to be ransacked was that of Egypt, already 3,000 years old when Christianity was founded. Egypt, he writes, supplied the "virgin birth, a star in the east, three wise men bearing gifts, the evil power that tries to take a special child's life, and angelic messengers." The Egyptian hieroglyph KRST, meaning the anointed one, was applied to the deity Horus, who was born of a mortal woman and later crucified between two thieves.

And yet -- for all this -- Harpur is still a believing Christian. "I'm not interested in debunking," says the white-haired 70-plus Harpur, who has already been attacked by an assortment of prominent fundamentalists. "I want to help see the church through this century. Right now it's in crisis. The book tries to provide a fresh vision."

He considers the popularity of Mel Gibson's Passion movie a demonstration of how unhealthily dependent people have become on a historic Jesus who never existed.

In Harpur's view, the core message that Christianity shares with the other great religions of the Middle East is that God has given every human being a spark of divinity, which can be realized through spiritual struggle. The Egyptians symbolized this in a deity they called "Iusa" (which possibly later became the name Jesus) and wove a mythology of stories about his painful transformation into a human being. But neither the Egyptians, nor the Persians who possessed a similar mythology, ever claimed that such a person really existed. "The truth was always esoteric," Harpur says. "It was symbolized in the stories, but it wasn't history."

There is evidence that the early church fathers shared the view that there was no historic Jesus. But some time in the third and fourth centuries, Harpur argues, it was decided that a historic Jesus would give the new faith a distinctive quality not possessed by the powerful pagan faiths it was competing with. The many gospels and early writings that reflected the old, symbolic view of Jesus were suppressed, and the few -- four, to be exact -- that claimed he had actually lived were retained.

How did a man trained as a priest, who taught New Testament theology for many years, and defended it for decades in his newspaper column, come to such a drastic re-appraisal of his beliefs?

Harpur says he had been troubled for many years by illogicalities in the New Testament, such as the claim that Jesus was tried before three different courts during the single night of the Passion. He was also dismayed to discover while teaching theology at the University of Toronto that a couple of buildings away the very devout scholar Northrop Frye was teaching his students that any accurate history found in the Bible was only there by accident.

By 1990, when he wrote Finding the Still Point, Harpur had come to believe that the story of a Jesus who walked around Galilee performing magic had become an obstacle to people searching for the deep meaning of Christianity. "It was a leading of the spirit. But I didn't know that a book like The Pagan Christ was down the road."

The final blow to his old beliefs arrived in his mailbox a couple of years ago.

"People have always sent me their manuscripts for one religious book or another, since I am a religion editor," he explains. "One day, about 2― years ago, I got a manuscript from a guy who wrote: 'You might be open to this.' It was about a writer named Alvin Boyd Kuhn, who I had never read."

Kuhn was an American scholar of ancient Middle Eastern languages who died in 1963. While studying the vast body of Egyptian writings, Kuhn had been perturbed by occasional, oddly familiar passages. A poem in honour of Horus, for example, would begin with the words, "He was despised and shunned by men, a man of pain who knew what sickness was."

Kuhn recorded these similarities to New Testament language, and soon had a list of many hundreds of passages.

He was not, of course, the first to notice these oddities. Almost from the time it was possible to decipher the hieroglyphs, in the early 1800s, scholars were aware of them. Religious authorities decided that they merely "foreshadowed" the truth of Christianity, and few experts dared to disagree. Even Wallis Budge, the British Museum's Egyptian authority in the early 20th century, amassed volumes of research showing that pretty much the whole New Testament was in the hieroglyphs. But he dutifully concluded that it was just "foreshadowing."

Only a few scholars have come out and said flatly that Christianity is an evolution of the old "pagan" religions: Godfrey Higgins and Gerald Massey in the 19th century, and Alvin Kuhn in the 20th.

Reading Kuhn's books finally persuaded Harpur to set aside the historic Jesus. But it was a lengthy and painful process of wrestling both with Kuhn's evidence and with his own past. "I was raised with the idea of being saved 'in Jesus's arms,' " says Harpur, whose own parents were fundamentalist Christians. "So I know the Scriptures the way the fundamentalists know them."

Is he afraid of being shunned by believers, especially his fellow Anglicans?

"Well, you need a community. And it will be very painful, there will be grief for people who are seized by the cogency of my case but are wedded to the comfort of traditional faith. There's a personal grieving process if you're going to do this. But I am committed to doing as the Spirit leads me."

Kuhn, after a lifetime of writing and arguing and giving speeches in support of his ideas, was studiously ignored by Christian scholars and his books were forgotten the day that he died. Does Harpur fear the same might happen to him?

"I don't think so. We're living in a different time now. Ideas are disseminated on the Internet, and the control of the mainstream religions over the public conversation is much weaker than it was only 40 years ago."

He also believes that the millions of people who have abandoned mainstream religion in recent decades did so partly because it has become hard to believe in a magical god/man who changes water to wine and brings the dead back to life. "The things I'm saying don't downgrade the Jesus story. Instead, they save us from this plodding tale of a magic wonder worker, which is so hard for modern people to believe."

Of course, even as millions have left the churches, millions more have declared themselves believers in a fiercely and literally historic Jesus. These are the fundamentalists who watch religious television, such as 100 Huntley Street. That show has already invited a Christian expert on air to savage Harpur's book. "It was a guy I've never met who kept repeating, 'I love you, Tom Harpur.' Of course, they didn't invite me on the program."

Not to mention the millions who are flocking to see the violently literal rendition of Christ's passion in Mel Gibson's movie. "It is simply grotesque, that movie," says Harpur, although he acknowledges that the publishers of The Pagan Christ moved up the publication date in order to take advantage of the oceans of media attention generated by the film.

"The rise of fundamentalism is because we live in scary times," Harpur says. "The appeal of the absolute is very great. The idea that we are the winning side. The kind of language [President] Bush is using to justify killing Iraqis."

In Harpur's view, the insistence on Jesus's literal existence is the main obstacle to reconciliation between Christianity and the other great religions, none of which relies on a literal god-man as a founder. "How will we ever escape the impasse of a billion and a half people who say that they possess the exclusive truth. [Theologian] Hans Kung has said we can never have world peace until that is resolved."

But what exactly will be left of Christianity if it loses the figure of Jesus Christ?

"It will be a more mystical religion," Harpur says. "But not less practical. After all, this business of letting Jesus do it for you doesn't look so good after what we've seen in the past 2,000 years."

slydevl
04-09-04, 10:43 AM
You won't find a reputable historian who will deny that Jesus the man existed.

slydevl
04-09-04, 10:47 AM
BTW, the guy's claims do make some sense. The Hebrews lived for hundreds of years in Egypt before Moses led them out and Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. That there were Egyptian influences in the OT means little. What means the most is the Jesus embodied all the prophecies.

Superfluous_Nut
04-09-04, 03:14 PM
it would seem that in order to believe that christ existed and the new testament is an accurate portrayal of his life, you'd need to believe in god. even if you remove the miracles, and say that christ was just a holy man and not the son of god, how do you get around the similarities to the egyptian stories? certainly without a god, there'd be no "foreshadowing" right?

slydevl
04-09-04, 03:41 PM
First of all, the "similarities" are a huge leap of faith in their own right. They "could" be similarities, they might not be. Second, who is to say they did not borrow them from the Jews while they were co-mingling their cultures.

It doesn't really matter what inspired the prophecies in the OT. God could have been inspiring them in many different cultures. What really matters is that they were embodied.

Superfluous_Nut
04-09-04, 04:23 PM
First of all, the "similarities" are a huge leap of faith in their own right. They "could" be similarities, they might not be. Second, who is to say they did not borrow them from the Jews while they were co-mingling their cultures.

It doesn't really matter what inspired the prophecies in the OT. God could have been inspiring them in many different cultures. What really matters is that they were embodied.
what do you mean they're a huge leap of faith? are you saying they're not as similar as they seem or that there's no credible evidence that they exist or both?

i'm not sure how jesus stories would be borrowed from the jews in egypt. i know the idea was that jesus fulfilled prophecies, but what messiah stories appear in the old testament?

you suggest that god could have been inspiring these stories in many different cultures. that's why i suggest one would need to believe in god to discount them to easily. it doesn't help scientific acceptance of christianity if logical inconsistencies are waved away by invoking god's omnipotence.

slydevl
04-09-04, 04:35 PM
what do you mean they're a huge leap of faith? are you saying they're not as similar as they seem or that there's no credible evidence that they exist or both?

Not as credible as they seem. Similarity is of course in the eye of the beholder. It would be just as credible for me to say George Washington didn't exist because the stories about him bear a resemblance to Andrew Jackson.

i'm not sure how jesus stories would be borrowed from the jews in egypt. i know the idea was that jesus fulfilled prophecies, but what messiah stories appear in the old testament?

the prophets of the OT predicted the messiah, the NT contained the fulfillment

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
Herodīs killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16)
Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:
- rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
- betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
- sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
- silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
- being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
- beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
- spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
- piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
- being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
- praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
- piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
- given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
- no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
- buried in a rich manīs tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
- casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

you suggest that god could have been inspiring these stories in many different cultures. that's why i suggest one would need to believe in god to discount them to easily. it doesn't help scientific acceptance of christianity if logical inconsistencies are waved away by invoking god's omnipotence.

I suggest that as one possibilty. God's truth is God's truth.

Superfluous_Nut
04-09-04, 06:30 PM
Not as credible as they seem. Similarity is of course in the eye of the beholder. It would be just as credible for me to say George Washington didn't exist because the stories about him bear a resemblance to Andrew Jackson.

maybe. if you burned all references to george washington and waited a few hundred years, then put together a few friend's memiors about washington. you'd have to ignore the obvious holes this would leave in american history, so maybe you should burn that too. wait another 1500 years, and then, yeah, i suppose you might be able to credibly suggest that washington is a myth. but then you'd also have to ask why this myth was propogated.


the prophets of the OT predicted the messiah, the NT contained the fulfillment

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)

not according to the hebrew text -
http://www.messiahtruth.com/is714a.html

basically, the hebrew text says "young woman" not virgin. in particular, some translations suggest the he was referring to a woman who was actually present. not sure how the name Jesus equates to Emanuel, either, tho it seems people have lots of names in the bible.


Herodīs killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)

Jeremiah 31:15 says:
This is what the LORD says:

"A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because her children are no more."

so matthew says this was about herod killing infants. i don't see it.


- being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)

isaiah 53:12

Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

taken with the rest of isaiah 53, it sounds a lot like "the meek shall inherit the earth" talk. 53:10 says: "Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease" was jesus crushed by disease?

also crucifiction is not mentioned here.


Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)

Psalm 16:10

For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to the nether-world; neither wilt Thou suffer Thy godly one to see the pit.

who is speaking here?


i chose only these parts because these are the likely overlaps with other myths. crucifiction, rebirth, virgin birth, killing infants in an attempt to get the special one... common themes, but missing from the old testament so likely not of judeo origin.

Miss tery
04-10-04, 07:52 AM
The Jesus Puzzle (http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm)

VOR
04-10-04, 08:09 AM
In these time of interdisciplinary study one should always be away of cases such as the following.

Several scientists said that the physics world had fallen victim to the same sort of hoax that Alan D. Sokal had played on the cultural-studies field in 1996. Mr. Sokal, a professor of physics at New York University, spoofed the relativism fashionable in the humanities by writing a satirical paper called "Transgressing the Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity," which argued, among other points, that there is no external reality and that the theory of quantum gravity has important political implications. He submitted it to the journal Social Text, which published it in a special issue on the "Science Wars."


Negotiated reality can often be unreal. Sokal played a really mean but necessary dastardly deed.

barry49s
04-10-04, 10:25 AM
The Doobie Brothers said Jesus exist, so, he exist.

Miss tery
04-10-04, 07:16 PM
The Doobie Brothers
:mushy:

hasbeen99
04-13-04, 02:24 PM
From everything I've read, the assertion that Jesus of Nazareth never existed is proposterous. To come to that conclusion, one would have to completely disregard not only the entire New Testament (especially the Gospels), but the many other written accounts of people who knew Jesus, plus the Roman record, plus the Jewish record. If anyone wanted to make Jesus a myth, the Jews would have the best reason to do so, yet they fully acknowledge His existence as a rabbi.

Regarding the prophecy of the virgin birth, I think that will always be a major topic of debate. For the record, I believe in it, but it wouldn't shatter my faith if it wasn't true. The truth is, no one in this day and age can prove or disprove it. Even in that age, the only one who truly knew for sure was Mary herself. If the information on the link SN posted was true, that's one less prophecy Jesus had to fulfill. He did just fine with the other hundred (give or take).

spud
04-13-04, 03:00 PM
And yet -- for all this -- Harpur is still a believing Christian. "I'm not interested in debunking," says the white-haired 70-plus Harpur, who has already been attacked by an assortment of prominent fundamentalists. "I want to help see the church through this century. Right now it's in crisis. The book tries to provide a fresh vision."


So he considers himself a Christian-which mean "follower of Christ" but doesn't believe he existed. I'm astonished anyone would pay attention to him.

hasbeen99
04-14-04, 01:18 PM
I read that, too, Spud. My first thought was, "What would be the point?"