According to the Bible...

[ECILAM]

Where are the souls of the firstborn Egyptian children slain by God's angelic hitman in Exodus? What's the ruling on something like that?

[WilliamJ]

if they did not know the difference between good and evil then they get a pass, if they knew and were pagan then they don't get in.

[VOR]

if they did not know the difference between good and evil then they get a pass, if they knew and were pagan then they don't get in.

how is that so?
I mean whats to say the won't forsake good for evil after they get in?

[slydevl]

how is that so?
I mean whats to say the won't forsake good for evil after they get in?

Lucifer forsoke good for evil and was tossed.

Peter says that Jesus preached to souls not in Heaven during the three days he was "dead". Some interpret this to mean he was in Hell, others do not. I think at that point everyone was given a chance to accept Jesus because they did not have that chance before he came. Those that denied Jesus went to Hell, those that accepted him went to Heaven.

As far as children and those who have not had the opportunity to know Christ. I feel like children are innocent and thus saved and that God appears to each culture in a way that they will understand and they bear the same responsibilty of accepting him or not.

[Village Idiot]

Where are the souls of the firstborn Egyptian children slain by God's angelic hitman in Exodus? What's the ruling on something like that?Old Testament/Old Law.........everything changed when Jesus came.

[hasbeen99]

Peter says that Jesus preached to souls not in Heaven during the three days he was "dead". Some interpret this to mean he was in Hell, others do not. I think at that point everyone was given a chance to accept Jesus because they did not have that chance before he came. Those that denied Jesus went to Hell, those that accepted him went to Heaven.

You inspired me to look this up, and I don't know how I missed/forgot it. The phrase I saw in several translations of that particular passage (1 Peter 3:18-20) was "spirits in prison". To me, and I could be wrong, that would almost indicate a separate place -- neither heaven nor hell -- where the souls of people who have died before Christ's ministry remain. Perhaps that is the foundation behind the largely Catholic premise of 'purgatory'? I dunno. Makes sense, though.

I also agree that this passage asserts that everyone (before the Flood, at least) has been given a chance to accept or reject Jesus. I wonder if He preached to only those 'spirits' who perished in the Flood, or if it includes all who lived before Jesus was born into this world. And does 'spirit' include both human souls and errant half/half breeds of Amelikites? Kinda reaching out into the fantastic there, but I've never really taken a hard look at that passage before. It seems like a fascinating study.

[Rob]

You inspired me to look this up, and I don't know how I missed/forgot it. The phrase I saw in several translations of that particular passage (1 Peter 3:18-20) was "spirits in prison". To me, and I could be wrong, that would almost indicate a separate place -- neither heaven nor hell -- where the souls of people who have died before Christ's ministry remain. Perhaps that is the foundation behind the largely Catholic premise of 'purgatory'? I dunno. Makes sense, though.

I also agree that this passage asserts that everyone (before the Flood, at least) has been given a chance to accept or reject Jesus. I wonder if He preached to only those 'spirits' who perished in the Flood, or if it includes all who lived before Jesus was born into this world. And does 'spirit' include both human souls and errant half/half breeds of Amelikites? Kinda reaching out into the fantastic there, but I've never really taken a hard look at that passage before. It seems like a fascinating study.


We have been discussing this on another board in relation to Jesus telling one of the thiefs on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise" when He actually didn't ascend into heaven for a few more days. Below is a word study one of the guys did on the greek meaning of paradise heaven and hell.

Yes it does make interesting food for though and very good discussion material. Yesterday I did a word study or at least I attempted to do a word study and was amazed that based upon the version of the bible you use you can get the same English word out of a couple of different greek words.

The Greek word geennan which according to Strongs means

1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

The Greek word hades which according to Strongs means

1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead

3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

++++
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.

What I find most fascinating is when you combine the word gennan with the word paradeisos (paradise)you end up with a intermediate place where people go after the die here on Earth. Come judgement day we will all progress from paradeisos (paradise) or hades (prison) to either ouranos (heaven) or geennan (hell). I never even thought about it this way until a few weeks ago when I spoke with the minister and asked him about why Christ said to the thief he would be in paradise when Christ knew he would have ascend to God immediately.

[hasbeen99]

What I find most fascinating is when you combine the word gennan with the word paradeisos (paradise)you end up with a intermediate place where people go after the die here on Earth. Come judgement day we will all progress from paradeisos (paradise) or hades (prison) to either ouranos (heaven) or geennan (hell). I never even thought about it this way until a few weeks ago when I spoke with the minister and asked him about why Christ said to the thief he would be in paradise when Christ knew he would have ascend to God immediately.


Interesting... :thinking:

If it's accurate, then that does fill in a few blanks, doesn't it?

[ECILAM]

So then, if the Bible is to believed on that point, Hitler is not in Hell, because he hasn't been judged yet?

Sounds like a story idea to me...

[slydevl]

So then, if the Bible is to believed on that point, Hitler is not in Hell, because he hasn't been judged yet?

Sounds like a story idea to me...

There is no telling if Hitler is in Hell anyway. No one knows what went through his mind before he died. I know it gives comfort to the survivors to think that, but even the vilest murderers can experience the grace of Christ if they truly repent and desire it.

[WilliamJ]

here is where we christians split hairs. it has been a very long time since i studied this but acordinding to what the bible scholars taught me, i don't believe in hell. i do believe in heaven. i don't believe that whe we die we go to heaven, i believe we go into a soul sleep. how else when christ returns could we be reserected and taken into heaven?

back to the original question, if children are indeed innocent then they get a pass.

[hasbeen99]

There is no telling if Hitler is in Hell anyway. No one knows what went through his mind before he died. I know it gives comfort to the survivors to think that, but even the vilest murderers can experience the grace of Christ if they truly repent and desire it.

Excellent response. :applause:

[Thelt]

I do not believe that the desire to truly repent will come to a person unless God convicts him. I believe that if it is rejected enough that it will not come again. I find it hard to fathom that it would have came to Hitler right before he died. Not saying it is impossible but highly unlikely.

[hasbeen99]

I do not believe that the desire to truly repent will come to a person unless God convicts him. I believe that if it is rejected enough that it will not come again. I find it hard to fathom that it would have came to Hitler right before he died. Not saying it is impossible but highly unlikely.

Maybe a better question would be, would Hitler have accepted Him, even on his death bed? If he had realized what he'd done and was repentant, I'd say sure -- Jesus was probably there for him. But I find it much more likely that ol' Adolf probably died as he lived.

[VOR]

Maybe a better question would be, would Hitler have accepted Him, even on his death bed? If he had realized what he'd done and was repentant, I'd say sure -- Jesus was probably there for him. But I find it much more likely that ol' Adolf probably died as he lived.

Why would he not. After all jews were an inferior animal killing them was no big deal. Wars happen I'm sure in his mind he only wanted what was good for mankind. This whole area of ethics is interesting, because it illluminates the concept of good. Had Hitler been successful, good would be entirely different today.

[slydevl]

Why would he not. After all jews were an inferior animal killing them was no big deal. Wars happen I'm sure in his mind he only wanted what was good for mankind. This whole area of ethics is interesting, because it illluminates the concept of good. Had Hitler been successful, good would be entirely different today.

The law might be different but good would be unchanged.

[Thelt]

The law might be different but good would be unchanged.

Agreed

[VOR]

The law might be different but good would be unchanged.

That's true, but not even the law changed really but rather who the law applied to. The basic underpinnings of religion would not have been altered for the real humans life would have been quite normal.

[Thelt]

It might have changed a lot for a lot of people. Living under Hitler would have been much different than living in the freedom we have today. The nature of good and evil would not have changed but the amount of each in the world might have.