Pro Life/Choice, Presidents, and Church

[Derbygal]

I heard something very interesting the other day. Apparently since John Kerry is Pro-Choice and also Catholic, the Catholic Church has decided that he can't participate as a full fledged member of the Catholic faith anymore because to be Catholic you must be Pro-Life ONLY. From what I heard, this means he can't take communion anymore, along with a variety of other things which they didn't elaborate on.

Now I was raised Catholic...but I do not subscribe to the stupidity of not using protection, nor limiting a woman's right to choose. Neither of these are a part of the reasons why I am no longer a "practicing" member of the Catholic faith. Just about every person I have known has gone against the grain of their religion in some way, shape, or form, and these are called sins. The Catholic Faith has a "control" called "confession" in place for you to air your sins and be cleansed again. Since when does having a simple belief (Pro-Life or Pro-Choice) become such a horrid sin that not only can it NOT be cleansed, but it's made the object of ridicule by banishment from activity. This really in a way reminds me of the Scarlet Letter, and over a simple belief! It's not like Mr. Kerry himself had an abortion, and believe me as I say I know many within the faith that have had abortions and haven't been dealt with as severely!

Maybe a weird post, but it got me to thinking. IMO it's high time some religions (namely the one mentioned and a few others) take a good look at today's society and adjust their records accordingly.

Nuff said.

[Superfluous_Nut]

the catholic church is fading, isn't it? part of the reason they hushed-up the whole pedophile priest deal was that nobody wants to be a catholic priest so there is shortage of them... presumably because nobody really wants to be catholic.

the whole catholic thing is just too weird... very middle ages. i guess that's why protestants came to be. maybe there needs to be a new protestant movement...

[Isaac OddVelvet]

S_nut touched on it briefly. I think the issue here is that the Catholic Church is supposed to be the "standard" form of Christianity. A whole lot of other people thought the way that you do and disagreed with the Catholic Church on one idea or another and so the Protestant Churches were born. If you disagree with some aspects but not all, then there is probably a Protestant faith out there for you.

Of course, the Catholic Church itself violates some of the creeds of the older Christian faith (namely idolatry) and so the Eastern Orthodox Church split from them long ago.

Orthodox is probably the most "archtypal", one step down is Catholicism, then maybe Lutheranism, then a whole slew of different Protestants. The Anglican faith used to be like a Pope-free Catholicism, but it's drifted over the years.

[Miss tery]

All Christian churches are fading as the members age and the replacement rate lags behind the death rate.

This is not true in the Muslim countries with accelerating populations.

Edit: The exception may be the churches with an increasing percentage of minority members.

[vpkozel]

All Christian churches are fading as the members age and the replacement rate lags behind the death rate.

This is not true in the Muslim countries with accelerating populations.

Edit: The exception may be the churches with an increasing percentage of minority members.

Please post proof. Preesh.

[jbghostrat]

yeah Miss teri, where's your proof of that?

[Isaac OddVelvet]

From what I've heard, Christianity is expanding, but slower than the population is expanding so the percentage of the world that is Christian is falling, or at least staying relatively stable at about 33%. Contrasted with Islam which is expanding faster than the world population is expanding and is therefore increasing in percentage of the world's population.

I believe they say that Islam will be the largest world religion by the mid-21st century. It's currently at 21% and rapidly expanding.

[hasbeen99]

That's very interesting. I wonder if that means Kerry's been excommunicated. If he has, that's huge. :saywhat:

As far as the Pro-life position of the church goes, it's not a question of being old-fashioned, it's a matter of being Biblical. The Biblical view of abortion is murder, as defined by the intentional taking of an innocent life. That being the case, the church probably doesn't feel Kerry is any less guilty if he's enabling other people to do it.

[hasbeen99]

All Christian churches are fading as the members age and the replacement rate lags behind the death rate.

I think this is true of many old-fashioned churches that have not adapted to younger congregations. They are shrinking and dying. But newer churches that have adapted the message (and more importantly the traditions) to today's culture are doing pretty well, as far as I know.


This is not true in the Muslim countries with accelerating populations.

The reason for that probably has to do with their relatively static culture more than anything else.

[Isaac OddVelvet]

Islam does really well in countries with large, poor populations. The central message of Islam is "justice" as compared to Christianity where I would say that message would be "forgiveness" or Buddhism where it is probably "compassion." That message of justice "speaks" to the populations where there are lots of poor people such as the Middle East, Africa and south-east Asia.

Christianity is still expanding in numbers, but not as a percentage of the world population. Islam is in a state of rapid growth in numbers and as a percentage.

[hasbeen99]

Islam does really well in countries with large, poor populations. The central message of Islam is "justice" as compared to Christianity where I would say that message would be "forgiveness" or Buddhism where it is probably "compassion." That message of justice "speaks" to the populations where there are lots of poor people such as the Middle East, Africa and south-east Asia.

I would tend to agree with that.

[VOR]

Actually with catholics it's kind of don't ask don't tell since kerry told well the church has to deal with him. In any event the choice has to be there. legislating morality doesn't work, if y'all want to legislate abortion, then y'all should be pro socialism too.

[Derbygal]

As far as the Pro-life position of the church goes, it's not a question of being old-fashioned, it's a matter of being Biblical. The Biblical view of abortion is murder, as defined by the intentional taking of an innocent life. That being the case, the church probably doesn't feel Kerry is any less guilty if he's enabling other people to do it.

Oh, I completely understand that it's a matter of being biblical...I'm just saying that in today's world, it's not practical. Pro-choice includes the usage of protection, and even though we all KNOW we shouldn't copulate before marriage, there are many more that do than do not. The smart choice, if you're going to do the deed, is to use protection...not just to stop from creating life in human form, but also to keep from spreading those life forms some people carry that are harmful to the human race. Any way you sum that up, it's murdering a life form.

[vpkozel]

Islam does really well in countries with large, poor populations.

I don't really agree with this. Christianity is doing very well in China despite all attempts by the govt there to squelch it. I have not heard of Islam growing there.

India has traditionally a Muslim population.

[spud]

All Christian churches are fading as the members age and the replacement rate lags behind the death rate.

This is not true in the Muslim countries with accelerating populations.

Edit: The exception may be the churches with an increasing percentage of minority members.

I disagree. There are MANY large church thriving. The church I attend grows weekly. And with young people.

[kshead]

I don't really agree with this. Christianity is doing very well in China despite all attempts by the govt there to squelch it. I have not heard of Islam growing there.


Please post proof. Preesh. :)

Y'all may not like what Miss T said..... and she probably went too far with a blanket statement that the church or Christianity itself is fading.

But I get her point. The birth rate in Christian countries is down and the birth rate in non-Christian countries is exploding. Basic math says something has to give in terms of the percentage of each in the world's population. See Isaac.

[spud]

Actually with catholics it's kind of don't ask don't tell since kerry told well the church has to deal with him. In any event the choice has to be there. legislating morality doesn't work, if y'all want to legislate abortion, then y'all should be pro socialism too.


I thought we were talking about the 'church,' don't get me wrong I don't agree with everything the catholic church does, but isn't it like joining any club then not wanting to go by their rules. That's not legislating morality. If your pro-abortion you shouldn't be catholic, or join any church that doesn't believe in it. You shouldn't expect them to change for you. And Kerry shouldn't be taking communion if he's pro-abortion.

[vpkozel]

Please post proof. Preesh. :)

Of course.

Saving China
Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity is Transforming China and Changing the Global Balance of Power by David Aikman

Beijing's leading think tanks believe that China will begin rivalling the United States as the world's pre-eminent economic and military power sometime between 2020-2030. Many argue with the inevitability of that conclusion, anticipating some intervening social, economic or military cataclysm, others only with the timetable. What is even less certain, but as important, is what kind of world power China will be.

That Christianity might be its guiding ideology -- allying China with the United States and Israel in opposing radical Islam -- is not a conclusion many observers of the Chinese scene are likely to have reached. But that is indeed the startling thesis of DAVID AIKMAN in JESUS IN BEIJING: HOW CHRISTIANITY IS TRANSFORMING CHINA AND CHANGING THE GLOBAL BALANCE OF POWER.

Aikman argues that China's remarkable economic transformation over the past quarter century has been accompanied by an unreported story that is potentially as revolutionary. Fleeing first the moral bankruptcy of Marxism-Leninism and then the spiritual ills of a particularly brutal form of market capitalism, up to 80 million Chinese may now have embraced Christianity (from less than 4 million at the time of the Communist victory in 1949). At current growth rates, another 300 million may be added to the Christian fold over the next three decades, making China one of the largest Christian countries in the world. Moreover, many of these believers, some convinced of the essentiality of Christianity to the rise of the West, may already be holding influential positions in the political, cultural and military establishment, with profound implications for the nation's domestic and foreign affairs.

The operative word here is "may". Aikman, a former Beijing bureau chief for TIME, displays impressive reporting skills in attempting to discern the shape of the largely underground Christian elephant behind the Chinese curtain. And his comprehensive account of Chinese Christianity past and present, with an emphasis on the Communist era, provides convincing evidence that Christianity of all kinds -- but particularly the charismatic-evangelical brand of prophetic visions, faith healing, and tongue speaking -- is indeed on the rise.

But Aikman's own Protestant evangelical faith (which provided his unusual access to the underground "house churches") peeks clearly through the narrative, despite his obvious efforts to provide a balanced journalistic view. The book's Washington-based publisher, moreover, is a well-known promoter of conservative and Christian causes. This raises doubts that Jesus in Beijing is just the latest variation on a theme explored by Sinologist Jonathan Spence in his book The Chan's Great Continent -- the tendency of Western observers to project their own dreams onto Chinese reality.

Nowhere, for example, does the author make clear why the roots of 21st century Chinese Christianity should prove any more durable than those of previous attempts to plant the religion in China. An early chapter describes how the Nestorians, Franciscans, Jesuits and Protestants all enjoyed considerable success before seeing their efforts nearly extinguished by one of China's periodic inward turns and bouts of xenophobia. Their expectations of a Christianised China were at various times as sanguine as those of many evangelicals today. From Mongol to Manchu to Marx, Chinese culture has proven stubbornly resistant to enduring foreign influence (Buddhism being a notable exception).

Indeed, Aikman suggests that what may make this latest burst of conversions different is that it is fundamentally a "native Chinese phenomenon", despite the admittedly catalystic role played in recent years by underground missionaries from the United States and elsewhere. But can the centuries-old association of Christianity with imperialism (and opium) that Aikman also describes be so easily broken?

Globalisation, freedom of information and rising levels of income and education are also cited as fertile developments, but in other parts of the world, haven't these as often been associated with weakened religious belief? That China's estimated 70 million Protestants are overwhelmingly young, female (80%) and very informally organised and instructed also raises largely unaddressed questions about Christianity's continued growth.

As a work of reportage, however, Jesus in Beijing remains first-rate and up-to-date, rich in history, personalities and anecdote. Readers interested in more closely following the complex and evolving religious scene in China and making up their own minds about its future will find much to fascinate them.

Aikman excels in explaining the awkward origins and history of the official "state" churches (the Protestant Three Self Patriotic Movement and its Catholic counterpart). These were established during the Korean War to isolate and eventually "consign Christianity to the museum," and have a tangled relationship with the much larger underground networks. The ongoing dilemma of a Communist Party struggling to balance the perceived social (and perhaps economic) benefits of Christianity with its threat to political control is also well handled.

And of course there are remarkably moving stories of persecution and suffering -- some individuals crushed, many lured into a painful moral compromise, others prepared to endure decades of imprisonment and torture for their faith. The familiar Hobson's choice of totalitarian life.

The "Back to Jerusalem" movement is one of the more startling revelations in the book. Inspired by prophetic visions beginning in the 1920s and continuing today, "an overwhelming majority" of Chinese Protestants now believe that God has entrusted them with the task of converting the populations of the Silk Road and Middle East and hurrying the Millennium. Sentiments such as "the Muslim religion is the biggest obstacle on the road back to Jerusalem" are one reason Aikman argues that the possibility of an evangelical Christian China bears watching.

As fascinating is the Taiping-like "Eastern Lightning" sect and its belief that a middle-aged woman in Henan province surnamed Deng is the latest incarnation of Jesus. A thorn in the side of Protestant leaders, the group has used a combination of kidnapping, bribery, sexual enticement and possibly murder to co-opt a large number of underground house churches. Nor have their antics been a great help in continuing efforts to regularise underground worship and convince the Chinese authorities that house churches are neither "mutinous cults" (xie jiao) nor another Falun Gong.

In the end Jesus in Beijing succeeds in raising the intriguing possibility of a Christian China, if not necessarily its certainty or even likelihood. This particular doubting Thomas remains sceptical -- but of course all worldly argument goes out the window if it turns out to be part of the divine plan.


Tim O'Connell
19/04/2004

http://www.asianreviewofbooks.com/arb/article.php?article=375

[Isaac OddVelvet]

I don't really agree with this. Christianity is doing very well in China despite all attempts by the govt there to squelch it. I have not heard of Islam growing there.

India has traditionally a Muslim population.

China is 1-2% Muslim and 2-3% Christian, but is officially atheist so it's hard to get a true gauge on what the real numbers are.

India is traditionally Hindu, but the more Muslim north split off and is now Pakistan even so, there is a large Indian Muslim community of something like 12% (all percentages from CIA World Factbook 2003) which would make something like... 120 million Muslims.

P.S. 1-2% of China being Muslim gives you something like 17 million Muslims.

[vpkozel]

But I get her point. The birth rate in Christian countries is down and the birth rate in non-Christian countries is exploding. Basic math says something has to give in terms of the percentage of each in the world's population. See Isaac.

You are correct that the birthrate in "Christian" countries is falling. But it would be an incorrect conslusion to say that therefore, the number of Christians is declining as well.

You do not have to be born into a "Christian" country to be one. The fastest growing area for the Anglican church is Africa.

[Isaac OddVelvet]

I didn't say number of Christians, that's still rising. I said percentage of the world that is Christian. That is staying steady at 33%, relatively steady.

[kshead]

You are correct that the birthrate in "Christian" countries is falling. But it would be an incorrect conslusion to say that therefore, the number of Christians is declining as well.


But it would be correct to say the percentages are declining. Same as with white folks. We just ain't doing that much breeding.

Edit: Just wanted to add that as a broad generalization of the type that's being thrown around here? I don't think it's a stretch to use birth rates in developed (i.e. Christian) countries as a benchmark anymore than you are using church growth rates in undeveloped countries (Africa) to argue each side here. I'm just not sure how those two things will play on each other in the coming years.

The only actual Census data I can find is based on Australia and it shows the % of Christians there going down (barely, something like 21 to 20%) in the last decade. Of course, those folks are decended from heathens so what do you expect? :)

[vpkozel]

We just ain't doing that much breeding.

Get to work then.

[Isaac OddVelvet]

Get to work then.

I just like to "practice"

[vpkozel]

I just like to "practice"

From what I hear - you need it.....

[hasbeen99]

In any event the choice has to be there.

Not in the church, it doesn't. Spud is right -- the church isn't a democracy. If people want a relationship with God, they have to play by His rules. :)


legislating morality doesn't work, if y'all want to legislate abortion, then y'all should be pro socialism too.

I see your point, but here's the thing -- socialism won't work as long as flawed and corruptible people are running it. If nothing else, the Soviet Union excelled in proving that.

[VOR]

I thought we were talking about the 'church,' don't get me wrong I don't agree with everything the catholic church does, but isn't it like joining any club then not wanting to go by their rules. That's not legislating morality. If your pro-abortion you shouldn't be catholic, or join any church that doesn't believe in it. You shouldn't expect them to change for you. And Kerry shouldn't be taking communion if he's pro-abortion.

That's because in your reasoning is based on monologic. However when you are a member of a pluralistic society you cannot afford to the luxury of monologic and must use a dialectic approach, where although you personally are against a condition, for the sake of a functioning society you must put aside your values and adopt those of the consensus. Thinking like yours get planes flown into buildings.

[hasbeen99]

Oh, I completely understand that it's a matter of being biblical...I'm just saying that in today's world, it's not practical.

Look at the definition again. If the Bible calls abortion murder (or worse, infanticide), then the consequences of eliminating it as an option -- no matter how impractical -- are justified. Again, this from a Biblical point of view, which is exactly the perspective the church should be operating from -- not a societal view.


Pro-choice includes the usage of protection...

I haven't seen anything in the Bible to suggest methods which prevent conception are out of bounds. God intended sex for more than procreation -- it was always meant to be an experience. And you won't find more than a handful (relatively speaking) of Pro-Lifers who will argue against those methods.


...and even though we all KNOW we shouldn't copulate before marriage...

Why not? The only standard I really know of in 21st century America that speaks against pre-marital sex is the Bible. If we're talking about discarding what the Bible says because of inconvenience, why not discard this idea, too?


...there are many more that do than do not.

Of course. It takes some pretty serious devotion to observe such narrow restraints on what our culture unceasingly tells us is not just a freedom, but a right.


The smart choice, if you're going to do the deed, is to use protection...not just to stop from creating life in human form, but also to keep from spreading those life forms some people carry that are harmful to the human race.

Agreed.


Any way you sum that up, it's murdering a life form.

You aren't seriously drawing a parallel between an unborn human and a virus, are you? :saywhat:

[spud]

That's because in your reasoning is based on monologic. However when you are a member of a pluralistic society you cannot afford to the luxury of monologic and must use a dialectic approach, where although you personally are against a condition, for the sake of a functioning society you must put aside your values and adopt those of the consensus. Thinking like yours get planes flown into buildings.

THAT was quite a stretch in your last line.
My reasoning is if you don't want to join club/church....then don't. But don't join them and then think they should change for you. This is AMERICA no one makes me go to church, be catholic, nor take communion. But I don't join things I don't believe in. Nor would I ask anyone to destory a building or anything for my beliefs. My church doesn't preach or teach that.

[spud]

The world's largest church

Yoido full Gospel Church ins Seoul Korea with a conservative estimated weekly attendance in excess of 100,000 is at least four times as big as American's largest congregation.

[Miss tery]

As an interesting aside, Italy and Spain have some of the lowest Total Fertility Rates (TFR) on the planet at about 1.3........ 2.1 children per female is generally recognized as the 'replacement rate' to maintain a stable population. I have been following this issue and it seems as the human race develops it is quite likely we may breed ourselves out of existence. Perhaps that is why there are no aliens.

[Miss tery]

The world's largest church

Yoido full Gospel Church ins Seoul Korea with a conservative estimated weekly attendance in excess of 100,000 is at least four times as big as American's largest congregation.


Edit: The exception may be the churches with an increasing percentage of minority members. :applause: