Baptism Question

[Ssstern]

If a child is baptised under one Christian religion does that Baptism transend all the Christian religions? If later in life they wanted to change to another Christian religion they would have to be Baptised anew?

[VOR]

depends on the religion. Catholics recognize one baptism. Lot of the wacko holy roller ones expect you to be reborn when you are accepted into their midst. so the answer is yes and no.

[Ssstern]

depends on the religion. Catholics recognize one baptism. Lot of the wacko holy roller ones expect you to be reborn when you are accepted into their midst. so the answer is yes and no.

Thanks. It just depends then.

[hasbeen99]

Depends more, I think, on the religion's interpretation of what baptism is. The Baptists, for example, have a very different definition of baptism than Catholics do.

Our church will recognize any baptism by immersion, as long as the person was old enough to realize what he or she was doing and make his or her own decision.

[spud]

I was raised in a Protestant church, baptized as an infant.
I strongly believe (Personally) that baptism is something God does for YOU, not something YOU do for God. But I really don't think it's a big enough issue to matter. If you feel the need to be baptized as an adult, then you should.

[hasbeen99]

I was raised in a Protestant church, baptized as an infant.
I strongly believe (Personally) that baptism is something God does for YOU, not something YOU do for God. But I really don't think it's a big enough issue to matter. If you feel the need to be baptized as an adult, then you should.

Just to play a little devil's advocate with you, if baptism is something God does for us, and it doesn't really matter anyway, then why did Jesus tell the apostles to go baptize everyone? (Matthew 28:19-20) :thinking:

[spud]

Well it was a 'sign' for them, and as you said "EVERYONE" not adults only.
It's one of those things, I can take or leave. I do know the thief on the cross was baptized, so either way...

[hasbeen99]

It's one of those things, I can take or leave. I do know the thief on the cross was baptized, so either way...

True, but it's not exactly like he had a choice to come down off the cross and get dunked before he died, either. A better question would be, if he had the chance, would he have?

[spud]

Not if his mama already had him sprinkled when he was a kid :laugh1:

[VOR]

Just to play a little devil's advocate with you, if baptism is something God does for us, and it doesn't really matter anyway, then why did Jesus tell the apostles to go baptize everyone? (Matthew 28:19-20) :thinking:

So does it really matter whether you baptise an infant, if some preacher who is merely a bible scholar baptises then there is the question of whether the infant wants it or not, but however if a priest tracing his lineage back to the apostles does the job then of course he is merely following orders from The Man.

[spud]

It doesn't matter to me really. Just as long as you have a relationship with Christ.
I used to be pretty staunch about this. I've come to realize what is important. Denomonations aren't as important to me as they once were either.

[hasbeen99]

Not if his mama already had him sprinkled when he was a kid :laugh1:

That would've been before Jesus changed the meaning of baptism. :wink2:

[hasbeen99]

So does it really matter whether you baptise an infant, if some preacher who is merely a bible scholar baptises then there is the question of whether the infant wants it or not, but however if a priest tracing his lineage back to the apostles does the job then of course he is merely following orders from The Man.

You could say that's looking at it from both perspectives at the same time. Biblically speaking, lineage has no correlation to righteousness. And if a person has not made his or own personal decision to follow Christ, the true purpose of baptism is lost. Another way to look at it is that God doesn't have any grandchildren. Each person must decide for himself.

[hasbeen99]

It also depends if you were sprinkled or dunked. Some religions only recognize dunking. While other recognize getting "sprinkled" upon with holy water.

That's because the original ancient Greek term used in the Gospels and Acts is baptizo, which means to dunk, or put under. Even the more modern Greek word, baptizein, means "to dip". [source: www.dictionary.com]

When you look at the symbolism of post-resurrection baptism, you see that it's a metaphor for death and resurrection, not cleansing. Therefore sprinkling or pouring no longer applies.

[jbghostrat]

why do you have to get baptized? what if you never do, will you still go to heaven?

[LarryD]

why do you have to get baptized? what if you never do, will you still go to heaven?


in a word, no.

from what i understood from my middle-school days it is that water baptism is the outward symbolic washing away of the "sins of the flesh", it's a representation to everyone else that you have been baptized by the holy spirit.

[Rob]

Once again we have been discussing this over at TAK. Here is another word study that takes what Hasbeens said a little farther,

In Matthew 3:6 we first find the word baptize being used. The greek word used is baptizo which has the following definition:

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

3) to overwhelm

The other greek word commonly thought of when baptism is references is bapto. However bapto has the following meaning.

1) to dip, dip in, immerse

2) to dip into dye, to dye, colour

Now an interesting point of emphasis is what I found when I was looking at baptizo on blueletter. Here is a further explanation of the difference between baptizo and bapto

Please note that baptizo is Strongs 907 while bapto is Strongs 911

Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.

OK so when Christ gave us the great commission in Matthew 28:19-20 He stated:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

The greek work used by the author of Matthew in verse 19 is baptizo. This would suggest that it is the immersion change method that Christ was speaking of.

Another interesting thought is the word baptizo is used 86 times in the bible in 65 different verses, all of which are new testament verses While the word bapto is only used 3 times in 3 verses and each time the KJV translates bapto to dip or dipped.

Of course there is a third belief out there that says you should be dipped 3 times since Christ said you should be baptized in the name of the Father (1), the Son (2) and the Holy Spirit(3).

I like the analogy of baptising cucumbers in vinegar to produce pickles. The change is the important thing and I look at the ceremony of Baptism by immersion and the actual Baptism of the Spirit as being two different things. The former is wonderful and a testamony to the world of the changes that the Holy Spirit is making in that person. The latter is accepting Christ, allowing Him to change you and accepting the Holy Spirit in your heart. This fits well with the thief on the cross.

[spud]

Hasbeen, don't get so hung up on the baptism thing.
Also, if your trying to adopt thru Bethany Christian Services, you should check out what denomation really runs it and what they believe. Because if I remember right, they are from a very Calvinistic background. Really I think that for years and years the Christian church baptized babies.
REALLY, does it matter? I haven't been dunked. I'm going to heaven..

P.S. Hope you do get that baby too! I think you'd be wonderful parents!

[Rob]

Here is a position Statement of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church(EPC) that speaks to baptism.

Our beliefs about the Holy Spirit, drawn from Scripture, are summarized in the Westminster Confession of Faith, where the following description of the nature of the Holy Spirit is found: “The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, proceeding from the Father and the Son, of the same substance and equal in power and glory, is together with the Father and the Son, to be believed in, loved, obeyed, and worshiped throughout all ages (Chapter 34, ‘Of the Holy Spirit”).

Therefore, we believe the Holy Spirit to be God, just as we believe the Father and the Son to be God in the mystery of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit remains, however, the least understood of the three. God the Father has a title that helps us define Him, and the Son took to Himself a body like ours. But the Holy Spirit by name seems less comprehensible to us and is therefore subject to greater misunderstanding than either the Father or the Son. How, then, does the Evangelical Presbyterian Church understand the Holy Spirit?

As previously stated, we understand Him to be fully God. His primary function in this age is to glorify Christ by reconciling lost humanity to God. “The Holy Spirit, whom the Father is ever willing to give to all who ask Him, is the only efficient agent in the application of redemption. He regenerates men by His grace, convicts them of sin, moves them to embrace Jesus Christ by faith (Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 34:3).

The activity of the Holy Spirit accomplishes what Jesus declared to Nicodemas as the only means by which an individual is able to enter the Kingdom of God, through the new birth. Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, unless a man is born again, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:3-5).

In our redemption, the Holy Spirit accomplishes several things. He convicts us of sin and brings repentance. He enables us to believe, confessing Jesus Christ as Lord. He seals the believer unto the day of redemption. “In Him, you also, after listening to the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession to the praise of His glory.” (Ephesians 1:13, 14 NASV).

The Holy Spirit functions within the life of the believer, unfolding and expressing the life of Christ in ever deepening, life-changing ways. This is the process of sanctification by which the believer is enabled to grow in grace throughout his lifetime. Sanctification is never complete short of glorification. Some Christians believe that ‘the baptism in the Holy Spirit” is a second work of grace, subsequent to the new birth. What is the position of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church in this matter?

As a denomination in the Reformed tradition, we subscribe to the ancient affirmation of orthodox Christian faith and believe in “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5). This baptism, while visibly expressed in the covenant sacrament that bears its name is invisibly the work of the Spirit that takes place at the time of the new birth. Paul expresses this truth in I Corinthians 12:13, when he tells the Corinthians “…we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body…”

Thus, we hold to the concept of the baptism in or with the Holy Spirit as the act of the Spirit that takes an unregenerate individual and, through the new birth, adopts him into the family of God. All the works of the Spirit that follow, then, are because of this initial baptism rather than separate from it.

Since Christians are called to “…be filled with the Spirit…” (Ephesians 5:18) all believers in Christ having been baptized into His body by the Holy Spirit should seek to experience the fulfillment of this command. We believe that Christians are called upon to proclaim a grace that reaches out to forgive, to redeem and to give new spiritual power to life through Jesus Christ and the infilling of the Holy Spirit.” (Book of Worship, 1-3).

Regardless of what term is used, we recognize this deepening work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer as being both valid and necessary, producing evidences of His presence in the process.

[hasbeen99]

why do you have to get baptized?

Because Jesus said so. :)

(Matthew 28:19-20)


what if you never do, will you still go to heaven?

Jesus told the thief on the cross next to Him that he would be with Him "in paradise". As far as we know, he was never baptized -- at least not after he believed in Christ.

That being said, like I mentioned to Spud earlier -- it's not like he had the option to come down off the cross and get baptized.

Whether or not someone spends eternity in heaven is decided by Jesus and Jesus alone. The bottom line remains, He told us to. So why wouldn't a Christian get baptized?

[hasbeen99]

in a word, no.

So, if the thief on the cross was never baptized, did Jesus lie to him? Or did John fabricate that exchange between the two?


from what i understood from my middle-school days it is that water baptism is the outward symbolic washing away of the "sins of the flesh", it's a representation to everyone else that you have been baptized by the holy spirit.

Baptism until Jesus came meant exactly that -- cleansing of sins. It was inspired by the great flood, where God 'cleansed' the planet of evil. But there are two major points that argue the change in the meaning of baptism:

1. Jesus asked to be baptized by John at the beginning of His ministry. Jesus was sinless, so why would He ask to be cleansed?

2. In John 3, Jesus teaches Nicodemus the concept of being "born again", suggesting a regeneration, not a cleansing at the point of conversion.

But Paul summarized it best in his letter to the Romans...

"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--

According to Paul's words, the baptism of John the Baptist was about repentance and cleansing. Baptism into Christianity is about death of the old sinful self, and the resurrection of the new redeemed self.

[hasbeen99]

I was sprinkled! Millions of people were sprinkled. Sme churches recognize this, some don't.

I was sprinkled, too. But when I was, I hadn't made a real commitment to being a Christian yet. I was sprinkled because someone told me to. Years later I learned what baptism symbolized (Biblically) and was baptized by immersion.

[hasbeen99]

Hasbeen, don't get so hung up on the baptism thing.

As far as I know, there are only two 'rituals' Jesus commanded us to do as Christians -- baptism (Matthew 28:19-20) and communion (Luke 22:19). Doesn't that make it important enough to make sure we get it right?

[hasbeen99]

Also, if your trying to adopt thru Bethany Christian Services, you should check out what denomation really runs it and what they believe. Because if I remember right, they are from a very Calvinistic background.

I checked out their website, and they don't seem to have a specific affiliation that I can see. I think they do all their seminars at a Church of Christ in Modesto, but that's because that was the church that offered it's facilities.

Really, as long as they're Christian, I'm not too worried about it. We're not adopting from them, they're just helping us adopt from someone else.

[LarryD]

So, if the thief on the cross was never baptized, did Jesus lie to him? Or did John fabricate that exchange between the two?


1. Jesus asked to be baptized by John at the beginning of His ministry. Jesus was sinless, so why would He ask to be cleansed?




i think that it's all in the definition. to me, there's water baptism that's external and there's baptism in the holy spirit, which is internal. i think that people think that water baptism IS being baptised in the holy spirit -- which i don't believe to be true. it's a ritual, to me. the real change takes place before that.

[hasbeen99]

i think that people think that water baptism IS being baptised in the holy spirit -- which i don't believe to be true. it's a ritual, to me. the real change takes place before that.

Agreed.

[mathmajors]

Agreed.
I think Jesus was more concerned with spirtual change than physical change. The Jewish faith at the time was so much about ritual that the act of baptism meant more to the newly converted.

I also didn't realize the full extent of my faith until years after I was baptized, but I'm not getting baptized again. Nor do I believe someone won't go to heaven if they've professed their faith (publicly or privately) but not been baptized. That seems too trivial.

[Rob]

I think Jesus was more concerned with spirtual change than physical change. The Jewish faith at the time was so much about ritual that the act of baptism meant more to the newly converted.

I also didn't realize the full extent of my faith until years after I was baptized, but I'm not getting baptized again. Nor do I believe someone won't go to heaven if they've professed their faith (publicly or privately) but not been baptized. That seems too trivial.


I agree and thats a great point about Jewish rituals that I hadn't thought of before.

[hasbeen99]

I think Jesus was more concerned with spirtual change than physical change.

Agree wholeheartedly.


I also didn't realize the full extent of my faith until years after I was baptized, but I'm not getting baptized again.

Same here. And I think that's the way it should be. We should understand our faith a lot more and better years down the road than at the beginning. If we don't, a strong argument could be made that our faith is dead.


Nor do I believe someone won't go to heaven if they've professed their faith (publicly or privately) but not been baptized. That seems too trivial.

I agree, but with one clarification. I do not believe baptism by immersion is essential to salvation, nor do I believe it brings about salvation. At the same time, I understand baptism to be a standing order from Jesus Himself, as told through the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20), making it an important part of an individual's spiritual growth through obedience and deference to the Lordship of Jesus. In short, I don't think it's optional.

[smashmouth5]

I was sprinkled and knew exactly what it meant. I am no doubt washed with the blood of Jesus, but I have never been dunked. That will not keep me out of heaven.

I did hear a preacher say one time that baptism is like calling a press con. in sports. You're letting the public know that you've joined another team.

[mathmajors]

In short, I don't think it's optional.
It's easy to see the argument, but there are situations in life that do not nicely fall under the GC.

[hasbeen99]

I was sprinkled and knew exactly what it meant. I am no doubt washed with the blood of Jesus, but I have never been dunked. That will not keep me out of heaven.

Agreed.


I did hear a preacher say one time that baptism is like calling a press con. in sports. You're letting the public know that you've joined another team.

That's a good way of putting it. :)

[hasbeen99]

It's easy to see the argument, but there are situations in life that do not nicely fall under the GC.

Certainly -- the thief on the cross next to Jesus was in such a situation. People who convert on their deathbeds would be in similar situations. I believe God takes those circumstances into account. At the same time, being on your deathbed is a far cry from 'not having the time', or opting out because we're apprehensive, shy, or just don't want to do it. Wouldn't you agree?