View Full Version : The Episcopal Church
I've been really on the fence about the possibility of re-joining the Catholic church. On one hand, I feel that they really have a leg up on most other Christian churches because of their long, deep, authentic traditions, their acknowledgement of mysticism as a positive and necessary part of spirituality, the absense of the use of fear as a redemptive tool, and their use of ritual as a powerful tool of unity and change. I also think that the current Pope has been excellent and is a truly positive and merciful person. On the other hand, the Catholic Church has a huge beaurocracy around it, especially near the top, and all of the corruption that necessarily follows, though I think that's a simple product of size and power, and most leaders of other churches only wish they had the marketshare to create an organization that large and corrupt.
So, I've been thinking about the Episcopal Church as a possible alternative. "Catholic Lite", as it's sometimes called. Most of the ritual and tradition, less girth and beaurocracy, tolerance for gays, and the idea that lower level priests can get married, but if you aspire to a higher post in the church, you have to acknowledge that as your highest calling and forego marriage, etc, etc.
Is anyone here a member of the Episcopal church or have any interesting knowledge to share thereof?
slydevl
05-27-04, 04:27 PM
vpkozel is one of the above mentioned heathens
Shrapnel
05-27-04, 04:36 PM
They like to drink nearly as much as the Catholics.
They like to drink nearly as much as the Catholics.
So, I may have to cut back?
Shrapnel
05-27-04, 04:43 PM
So, I may have to cut back?
Only during the actual Mass.
I guess the 5:00 PM is out, then...
vpkozel
05-27-04, 05:21 PM
So, I may have to cut back?
No. We generally outdrink you Catholic pussies.
The differences are minimal and pretty much as you describe, although I am pretty sure that all Episcopal priests can marry.
Are there any specific questions/reservations you had?
Are there any specific questions/reservations you had?
I, for one, would be leery of a religious organization that has not already booted you from its ranks.
vpkozel
05-27-04, 05:23 PM
I, for one, would be leery of a religious organization that has not already booted you from its ranks.
HASBEENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HASBEENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
anglicans are crybabies.
hasbeen99
06-03-04, 08:12 PM
I, for one, would be leery of a religious organization that has not already booted you from its ranks.
That's the cool thing about Christianity -- Jesus came for all the dregs of society who couldn't make it on their own. :wink2:
Superfluous_Nut
06-03-04, 09:25 PM
episcopal hasn't been the same since it bulked up and left saturday night live.
plutosgirl
06-03-04, 10:13 PM
I am seriously considering an Episcopal church for my daughter instead of Baptist as I was raised.
I agree with more of their beliefs than the ones I was raised with. At least if the Episcopals don't know the answer- they'll reason it out to make it sound good. The only thing I have heard is they are serious about their donations and strive to please those with money. That could just be one particular church though and not the entire throng.
hasbeen99
06-08-04, 07:14 PM
...the absense of the use of fear as a redemptive tool...
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge..." --Proverbs 1:7
hasbeen99
06-08-04, 07:26 PM
I agree with more of their beliefs than the ones I was raised with.
Such as?
At least if the Episcopals don't know the answer- they'll reason it out to make it sound good.
And that appeals to you? If I ask a question and the person I'm asking doesn't know the answer, I'd much rather them tell me the truth than make up something that sounds good, especially regarding spiritual matters.
plutosgirl
06-08-04, 10:42 PM
Such as?
And that appeals to you? If I ask a question and the person I'm asking doesn't know the answer, I'd much rather them tell me the truth than make up something that sounds good, especially regarding spiritual matters.
I know you scratch your head at my double talk sometimes... Ohhh if you had only been raised in the church where I was raised. Scared.....preachers banging the pulpit, screaming, telling us all we were going to hell. I sat at the East window in the mornings til the Sun rose at home, thinking the pink sky was the second coming and I was doomed to hell from the time I was about 9-12.
Episcopals teach love and acceptance. They turn no one away and I believe in that. God is love, not fear.
I was speaking of being a child (adolescent) and asking questions of the elders in my church etc.... The answers were always the same. If you dont' want to go to hell, don't think evil thoughts. (ok, I'm thinking evil now cause you said not to). If you don't want to go to hell, don't lie- (ok well it's a lie that I told my friend her hair was pretty)... and on and on. I do NOT want Zoe being raiased to fear God in a way that makes her think she could never be good enough for his grace and instill eternal guilt in her conscience. Although I realize none of us are good enough, it's important to me that she never confuses her normal feelings, thoughts etc.. with being damned to hell.
chipshot
06-08-04, 11:33 PM
No. We generally outdrink you Catholic pussies.
faster does not an outdrinker make
I know you scratch your head at my double talk sometimes... Ohhh if you had only been raised in the church where I was raised. Scared.....preachers banging the pulpit, screaming, telling us all we were going to hell. I sat at the East window in the mornings til the Sun rose at home, thinking the pink sky was the second coming and I was doomed to hell from the time I was about 9-12.
Episcopals teach love and acceptance. They turn no one away and I believe in that. God is love, not fear.
I was speaking of being a child (adolescent) and asking questions of the elders in my church etc.... The answers were always the same. If you dont' want to go to hell, don't think evil thoughts. (ok, I'm thinking evil now cause you said not to). If you don't want to go to hell, don't lie- (ok well it's a lie that I told my friend her hair was pretty)... and on and on. I do NOT want Zoe being raiased to fear God in a way that makes her think she could never be good enough for his grace and instill eternal guilt in her conscience. Although I realize none of us are good enough, it's important to me that she never confuses her normal feelings, thoughts etc.. with being damned to hell.
Hell send her to catholic school, after the penguins, god is a cinch.
hasbeen99
06-10-04, 07:55 PM
I know you scratch your head at my double talk sometimes... Ohhh if you had only been raised in the church where I was raised. Scared.....preachers banging the pulpit, screaming, telling us all we were going to hell. I sat at the East window in the mornings til the Sun rose at home, thinking the pink sky was the second coming and I was doomed to hell from the time I was about 9-12.
Episcopals teach love and acceptance. They turn no one away and I believe in that.
So do I. And any church teaching and living out Biblical principles should be teaching love and acceptance and greeting anyone who walks through their doors with open arms. That's not a denominational thing, that's a Bible thing. It's a Jesus thing. And it's one of the many things I observed and have observed in my own church (which, by the way, is technically Southern Baptist).
God is love, not fear.
Here's where I have to disagree. God is love and fear. The Bible teaches in both the Old and New Testaments to fear God. In fact, it goes so far as to call anyone who doesn't fear God a fool (Proverbs). Jesus Himself told His own disciples to fear God and nothing else on this earth.
Jesus didn't minister by 'powering up' on people, but He taught more about hell than He did heaven. There is a huge difference between being ungodly and being worthless. Preachers like the one you mentioned from your childhood haven't figured that difference out yet, and God promises to hold them accountable for the damage they have caused. On the other hand, preachers who minister as Jesus did -- who can show people their sin and offer them hope and acceptance at the same time -- they are the doorway to finding the kind of great life God wants all of us to live.
I was speaking of being a child (adolescent) and asking questions of the elders in my church etc.... The answers were always the same. If you dont' want to go to hell, don't think evil thoughts. (ok, I'm thinking evil now cause you said not to). If you don't want to go to hell, don't lie- (ok well it's a lie that I told my friend her hair was pretty)... and on and on.
That's manipulation, not ministry. They were right, in a sense -- to experience our best life, we do have to gain control over our thoughts, and it ain't easy. The point they were probably trying to make is that it only takes one sin to separate you from God. They were probably trying to impress on you your need for God's grace and forgiveness. Of course, if that wasn't your question, it didn't do much good. Regardless, it sounds like they did a terrible job communicating the message anyway.
I do NOT want Zoe being raiased to fear God in a way that makes her think she could never be good enough for his grace and instill eternal guilt in her conscience. Although I realize none of us are good enough, it's important to me that she never confuses her normal feelings, thoughts etc.. with being damned to hell.
Okay, let me try to explain this without screwing it up. It's actually good for non-Christians to feel guilty, if the guilt comes from comparing their own lives to the standards of the Bible and realizing they don't measure up. That's the motivation we all need to ask for the forgiveness and grace Jesus offers.
Now, once that offer has been accepted, there is no longer any reason to beat ourselves up over our past. The guilt of the past becomes thanksgiving in the present. Make sense? And the cycle continues -- we make mistakes, we make amends with God and anyone we might have hurt, pay whatever penalty our actions merit, receive God's forgiveness, learn from the experience and move on. It's a continuous process of turning bad experiences and decisions into life-affirming positive lessons.
Probably the hardest thing a Christian has to learn is that the Christian life is anything but "normal". Our normal-ness -- thoughts, feelings, actions -- is largely what led to our being motivated to seek out God to begin with. When you ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior, you have to leave normal behind. Otherwise you're just spinning your wheels, going nowhere. You don't grow spiritually, your life doesn't change, and your salvation comes into question because you'll never develop a relationship with God.
plutosgirl
06-10-04, 09:12 PM
Very good points Hasbeens, thanks for the time you took to answer those and give me your thoughts/ideas on them.
Now... I'm sure it's been asked. The fear question. ... Are you only a Christian because you fear God or is it a choice that makes for a better life here or both?
The general idea of my raising was I should fear God, not because the fear of hell but the fear that God would bring horrible things to me if I were not a Christian. The scripture says to fear God, but I don't think it means to fear him to the point of being afraid to learn, question or think. I believe that is what he intended.
hasbeen99
06-11-04, 04:41 PM
The fear question. ... Are you only a Christian because you fear God or is it a choice that makes for a better life here or both?
Fear is what brings you to God, primarily. The idea is that once you develop a relationship with Him, you'll live according to His will out of love and gratitude, not out of fear. It's very much like a child being good because he wants to please his parents, not because he's afraid of getting punished if he doesn't. The fact that living life that way is significantly better is just a bonus for us. :)
The general idea of my raising was I should fear God, not because the fear of hell but the fear that God would bring horrible things to me if I were not a Christian.
That's not true. God will leave people to reap the consequences of their own sins, but I don't believe He heaps on judgment in this life since Christ came. That is not to say He doesn't allow bad things to happen to people to get them to reach out to Him. But that's not the same as smiting someone because he's living a life of debauchery.
The scripture says to fear God, but I don't think it means to fear him to the point of being afraid to learn, question or think. I believe that is what he intended.
Certainly. He didn't give us a brain with the intention of paralyzing us with fear to the point we're afraid to use it. In fact, because we are separated from God, we have to ask questions, meditate, and study to develop that relationship He covets with us. The Bible warns of entities -- both physical and supernatural -- who would stand in the way to prevent our knowing God. We have to learn to discern what is true from what is not, and that is a lifelong process.
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