View Full Version : Breaking the Cardinal Rule
I just told my wife just about EVERY fucked up thing I've done during our marriage.
builder
07-12-04, 01:04 PM
So that's why you bought the trailer. When you're ready to go clubhopping, call me. You've got my number.
no sympathy here. should have kept your mouth shut. now she has some "free" passes
Southern_Yankee
07-12-04, 01:06 PM
I'd bet anything czar knows some good divorce attorneys
builder
07-12-04, 01:07 PM
I'd bet anything czar knows some good divorce attorneys
They all get together and play "poke her" on Thursdays. Course, the "her" is really a smooth hairless boy named Jose.
We're so far past "free passes", it's not even funny. That shit was MOAB, but I feel strangely better.
builder
07-12-04, 01:08 PM
are you getting a divorce? Are you hoping for one?
meatpile
07-12-04, 01:11 PM
I just told my wife just about EVERY fucked up thing I've done during our marriage.
What type of fucked up stuff?
do you have to sleep with one eye open?
builder
07-12-04, 01:16 PM
:applause: What type of fucked up stuff?
yeah, like the tattoo convertable girl? or the gas-station ho? or...
Like EVERY fucked up thing. The gas station girl and other phone numbers offered to me unsolicited didn't even make the cut. I'm just tired of being emotionally uninvested in the relationship and felt it time to force the issue by stepping up and starting to be honest about who I am. She's an incredible find as a person and very giving, but maybe just not for me, and I think I've always known that. She made it easy to just ride along by requiring very little of me, and I anesthetized myself with sex with her in great volume and other stuff, but it never did the trick. This is one of those things that if I heard of someone else doing it, I might think they were stupid, but having now done it, I know it was right, regardless of the fallout. She, of course, was initially very kind and forgiving, told me she'd always love me and still wanted to be married to me if I decide I can love her all the way and feel truly committed. We'll see what happens when I call her in a few minutes, now that she's had some time to stew. It's good to be alive.
builder
07-12-04, 01:33 PM
Go on and wring my neck
Like when a rag gets wet
A little discipline
For my pet genius
My head is like a lettuce
Go on and dig your thumbs in
I cannot stop giving
I'm thirty-something
Sense of security
Like pockets jingling
Midlife crisis
Suck ingenuity
Down through the family tree
You're perfect, yes, it's true
But without me you're only you
Your menstruating heart
It ain't bleeding enough for two
It's a midlife crisis...
What an inheritance
The salt and the kleenex
Morbid self attention
Bending my pinky back
A little discipline
A donor by habit
A little discipline
Rent an opinion
Sense of security
Holding blunt instrument
I'm a perfectionist
And perfect is a skinned knee
You're perfect, yes, it's true
But without me you're only you
Your menstruating heart
It ain't bleeding enough for two
It's a midlife crisis...............
I anesthetized myself with sex with her in great volume and other stuff, but it never did the trick.
There are other alternatives such as booze and drugs. Not that I would recommend them. I just want to make sure you've covered all your bases here.
It all started with that stupid "About Schmitt" movie. Fuck Jack Nicholson. ;)
meatpile
07-12-04, 01:35 PM
There are other alternatives such as booze and drugs. Not that I would recommend them. I just want to make sure you've covered all your bases here.
You forgot 'sucking cock at rest areas'.
There are other alternatives such as booze and drugs. Not that I would recommend them. I just want to make sure you've covered all your bases here.
Yep, done it. I'm already feeling less desire for them.
builder
07-12-04, 01:36 PM
You forgot 'sucking cock at rest areas'.
That's never a good option. It's one reason many black married women are now HIV positive.
You forgot 'sucking cock at rest areas'.
That's already on Sadic's disclosure list I'm sure.
builder
07-12-04, 01:38 PM
That's already on Sadic's disclosure list I'm sure.
I would like to know that too. And if he pm'd me the answer, I'd never tell anyone.
I would like to know that too. And if he pm'd me the answer, I'd never tell anyone.
the panting would give you away
builder
07-12-04, 01:42 PM
was he fat? :banana:
I just talked to her. She's going to Pennsylvania tomorrow for a few weeks to figure shit out. She's very grateful that I told her.
SilverSurfer
07-12-04, 02:30 PM
I just talked to her. She's going to Pennsylvania tomorrow for a few weeks to figure shit out. She's very grateful that I told her.
Good deal. Now you'll have several weeks to fool around. Any chance she wants to take my wife with her?
builder
07-12-04, 02:30 PM
let's go grab a beer.
Good deal. Now you'll have several weeks to fool around. Any chance she wants to take my wife with her?
Will she split babysitting chores?
SilverSurfer
07-12-04, 02:32 PM
Will she split babysitting chores?
As long as you buy her beer or wine to drink while babysitting.
As long as you buy her beer or wine to drink while babysitting.
Then they'll get a long just fine. What's her brand?
let's go grab a beer.
While I am gay, I don't foresee me ever actually wanting to engage in homosexual activity. But if I did, you'd be high on my list. Obviously, personality counts for a lot with me.
Do you WANT her to leave you? I know what it feels like to be in a relationship where you want the other person to leave so you don't have to be the one to do it.
SilverSurfer
07-12-04, 02:35 PM
Then they'll get a long just fine. What's her brand?
Anything lite, usually Miller or Coors lite. BUt she'll drink MD 20/20 in a pinch. :laugh1:
BUt she'll drink MD 20/20 in a pinch. :laugh1:
Won't we all?
Do you WANT her to leave you? I know what it feels like to be in a relationship where you want the other person to leave so you don't have to be the one to do it.
she sounds not to be a stupid woman. putting aside her life to raise his kids and all; well, sounds like sadic is fucked all the way around.
SilverSurfer
07-12-04, 02:41 PM
Won't we all?
Not me. I drank enough of that rotgut back when I was 13. I'll stick to beer. :)
slydevl
07-12-04, 02:53 PM
Go on and wring my neck
Like when a rag gets wet
A little discipline
For my pet genius
My head is like a lettuce
Go on and dig your thumbs in
I cannot stop giving
I'm thirty-something
Sense of security
Like pockets jingling
Midlife crisis
Suck ingenuity
Down through the family tree
You're perfect, yes, it's true
But without me you're only you
Your menstruating heart
It ain't bleeding enough for two
It's a midlife crisis...
What an inheritance
The salt and the kleenex
Morbid self attention
Bending my pinky back
A little discipline
A donor by habit
A little discipline
Rent an opinion
Sense of security
Holding blunt instrument
I'm a perfectionist
And perfect is a skinned knee
You're perfect, yes, it's true
But without me you're only you
Your menstruating heart
It ain't bleeding enough for two
It's a midlife crisis...............
One of my top 10 all time albums
builder
07-12-04, 03:06 PM
One of my top 10 all time albums
I am a man of many tastes.
Do you WANT her to leave you? I know what it feels like to be in a relationship where you want the other person to leave so you don't have to be the one to do it.
Maybe. We've been talking about it for a while. She knows I've been emotionally absent and I told her what I was feeling, but I left out all of the stuff I've done because I thought it would just complicate things and make it ugly, but I started feeling like I was robbing her of her own right to feel stuff and know who she's dealing with, and any anger that she might want to have about it. She's doing well with this so far. She's amazingly kind to me, and I somehow felt that this was the kindest thing I could do for her. She agrees, so I don't think it was the wrong thing to do. It's going to be an interesting few months ahead.
Silver, she's a Coors Light lover. They were made for each other.
I am a man of many tastes.
I am interested in experiencing none of them.
hasbeen99
07-12-04, 03:28 PM
Sadic,
Now that everything's more or less out in the open, what do you want? Do you want to be married to her? Do you want a divorce?
Being emotionally absent can be fixed by working on building back mutual trust and intimacy, if you're both willing. She sounds like a wonderful lady, and judging by what you've posted so far, it doesn't sound like divorce is what you want. What you're writing sounds more like a form of emotional martyrdom, actually.
She's better off without me.
She deserves better than me.
She's wonderful and I'm closed off.
I realize you haven't posted these exact things, but these are the vibes I'm getting, or what seem to me to be the next logical step. Or something.
This situation doesn't have to be difficult. Marriage is the same today as it was the first day you were married: a choice. So it really boils down to the question, do you want to be married to this woman? If so, everything else can be fixed.
Sounds like if you want out you are going to be the one to do it. If you split get used to paying for two of everything. I hope you make a lot of money, next time you fall in love just go ahead and buy her a house and go on.
Sadic,
Now that everything's more or less out in the open, what do you want? Do you want to be married to her? Do you want a divorce?
Being emotionally absent can be fixed by working on building back mutual trust and intimacy, if you're both willing. She sounds like a wonderful lady, and judging by what you've posted so far, it doesn't sound like divorce is what you want. What you're writing sounds more like a form of emotional martyrdom, actually.
She's better off without me.
She deserves better than me.
She's wonderful and I'm closed off.
I realize you haven't posted these exact things, but these are the vibes I'm getting, or what seem to me to be the next logical step. Or something.
This situation doesn't have to be difficult. Marriage is the same today as it was the first day you were married: a choice. So it really boils down to the question, do you want to be married to this woman? If so, everything else can be fixed.
I can see where you'd get that from what I'm writing. Though I've always loved, respected, and been drawn to her as a person, I'm fairly sure she's never been exactly what I've wanted, and I've always felt guilt for having been blessed with someone so great that I can't fully commit to. I was incredibly issue-laden when we met, a few years after my mom's suicide and very self destructive. I clung to her out of a sense of desperation, a virtual survival instinct, and she loved me unconditionally, essentially replacing that which I'd lost before her. I know I also represented some value to her other than just the fact that she was in love with me. During our 12 year marriage, we've helped each other through each of our mountains of issues. Sexual, family related, all kinds of stuff. We've had great conversation, great sex, lots of fun, and of course the 3 great kids. But somewhere inside of me, I think I've always known and denied that this was not "the person", and I don't believe who that person is is something we get to choose. She's like the greatest vanilla ice cream in the world, but I prefer chocolate, and I'm at the point where I've shedded enough of my earlier issues and family baggage that I can see that this is the next great blockage inside me, this level of honesty that I have to achieve and maintain. In so many ways, I've been every bit as good to her as she has to me. I've been a good listener, supportive, loving, and we've had great exchanges. Through a combination of genuine love and kindness and clever deception, I've successfully convinced her that I'm in love with her. I just don't know if divorce is a viable choice where the kids are concerned, and I'm curious about the relative value of staying together for their sake versus acknowledging following one's true heart. There's a utopian in my heart that says that there's no way I can spread the positivity that I need to if my heart isn't where it needs to be, and a Catholic in there that says divorce is just bad for kids, so suck it up. I have a hard time holding myself too deeply responsible for how my mind and heart worked, and how little I understood it all when I was 20. I'm also irritated at myself at how many other people I know who feel very similarly to me (to whatever degree they've consciously identified it), but never feel the need to rock the boat as I have.
builder
07-12-04, 04:01 PM
Dude....not trying to be funny any more, but you sound like you just came out to yourself. May not be a gay coming out, especially if there were no balloons and no one gave you a new toaster oven. But it's a great weight off your shoulders and a wonderful new outlook. The sun seems brighter. The sky is clearer. The raindrops are louder and clearer. And tomorrow, you'll wake up wondering if you really did it.
Dude....not trying to be funny any more, but you sound like you just came out to yourself. May not be a gay coming out, especially if there were no balloons and no one gave you a new toaster oven. But it's a great weight off your shoulders and a wonderful new outlook. The sun seems brighter. The sky is clearer. The raindrops are louder and clearer. And tomorrow, you'll wake up wondering if you really did it.
I agree, but I feel guilty for all of the people I'm hurting, at least in the short term. It all seems very selfish and I'm not sure if it's worth it for the sake of my happiness. It seems to me that if there's an order to the world, then me acknowledging these things and living a truer existence would ultimately be better for everyone, but I'm not sure if that's true.
BigVito
07-12-04, 04:12 PM
Dude....not trying to be funny any more, but you sound like you just came out to yourself. May not be a gay coming out, especially if there were no balloons and no one gave you a new toaster oven. But it's a great weight off your shoulders and a wonderful new outlook. The sun seems brighter. The sky is clearer. The raindrops are louder and clearer. And tomorrow, you'll wake up wondering if you really did it.I see what you're saying Builder, and I hope you are right.
I've been married 20 years, together for nearly 23, and I've often found myself feeling a lot of the same things Sadic is saying he's felt. Hell, 8 years ago, I could have written the same thing he did except not as eloquently or with as much insight. While my wife had done nothing 'wrong' in many ways I blamed her for my own unhappiness. She wasn't the one for me, either. She was too nice. Too accepting. I needed more of a challenge.
For me it turned out, I was being dishonest with not only her, but myself. It took a ton of work and there are still days when those old feelings creep back up, but I still have my family. A functioning, relatively normal family, and that makes it worth it.
Sadic, I'm just sharing from my experience. I do believe you have a lot more personal insight than I had at that stage of my life, but the parallels are strikingly similar and struck a chord with me.
Whatever the outcome, I only hope for you and your family the best.
meatpile
07-12-04, 04:16 PM
Hang in there.
GROW UP! It's not all about you! You have a great spouse and your bitching, I can hardly believe my ears. Your relying on emotions. You need to get the book "Emotions can you trust them" by Dobson.
That's what's exactly wrong with the world. Looking for "someone" to make us happy. Make yourself happy. Be happy with life, love those kids and your wife, put them first. You'll find happiness.
I see what you're saying Builder, and I hope you are right.
I've been married 20 years, together for nearly 23, and I've often found myself feeling a lot of the same things Sadic is saying he's felt. Hell, 8 years ago, I could have written the same thing he did except not as eloquently or with as much insight. While my wife had done nothing 'wrong' in many ways I blamed her for my own unhappiness. She wasn't the one for me, either. She was too nice. Too accepting. I needed more of a challenge.
For me it turned out, I was being dishonest with not only her, but myself. It took a ton of work and there are still days when those old feelings creep back up, but I still have my family. A functioning, relatively normal family, and that makes it worth it.
Sadic, I'm just sharing from my experience. I do believe you have a lot more personal insight than I had at that stage of my life, but the parallels are strikingly similar and struck a chord with me.
Whatever the outcome, I only hope for you and your family the best.
Thanks, man. I appreciate everyone's support and insight, and they're all valuable, and it's especially valuable to hear from someone who has felt themselves to be in a similar situation. I'm now past blaming her for my unhappiness. I did go through that and got to the point where I have to resign myself to the idea that it's a situation where she's great the way she is, and I need to realize that I'm great the way I am, and it's possible that the truest, deepest recognition of those things can't happen with us together.
Certainly, there's value in having a "functioning, relatively normal family". That's way more than a lot of people are blessed with, and doing anything to disrupt that sometimes seems like a direct slap in the face to God and those you love. But if the relationship you have doesn't speak to you deeply or make you love and feel loved and understood for all of yours and your spouse's most positive and negative characteristics, can you ever be as good to yourself and those you love as you need to be? Is there a way to be a great parent if you don't live with your kids?
Southern_Yankee
07-12-04, 04:33 PM
GROW UP! It's not all about you! You have a great spouse and your bitching, I can hardly believe my ears. Your relying on emotions. You need to get the book "Emotions can you trust them" by Dobson.
That's what's exactly wrong with the world. Looking for "someone" to make us happy. Make yourself happy. Be happy with life, love those kids and your wife, put them first. You'll find happiness.
Spud's right. The grass is not always greener and you may find yourself a bitter, lonely person watching the world go whizzing by.
meatpile
07-12-04, 04:37 PM
I have to say, FWIW, other than abuse, most divorced people I meet are rather unhappy about the situation.
Careful.
builder
07-12-04, 04:44 PM
I think sadic needs to put his faith in Jesus Christ and accept him as his lord and saviour. That'll make everything better.
Ya'll don't get it. Sadic is happy with himself. He's happy that his wife is the way she is. He's just not happy that they are together.
BigVito
07-12-04, 04:50 PM
Thanks, man. I appreciate everyone's support and insight, and they're all valuable, and it's especially valuable to hear from someone who has felt themselves to be in a similar situation. I'm now past blaming her for my unhappiness. I did go through that and got to the point where I have to resign myself to the idea that it's a situation where she's great the way she is, and I need to realize that I'm great the way I am, and it's possible that the truest, deepest recognition of those things can't happen with us together. Sadic, I think if you can come to terms with who "you" are, it makes it much easier to truly connect with the other person. That was my case, anyway. All the "She deserves someone who really loves her and can make her happy, and so do I" running through my head was an excuse for me to run from the relationship. In my case, it wasn't a physical separation as much as an emotional one, but I found I was using it to build the case for the former. "There had to be something better out there," I kept telling myself. In my own specific case, there was.
I had to dump a ton of baggage from my past and, in many ways, I started my life over. New career, new friends, and I intentionally limited my contact to anything from my past, including my brothers. Luckily, I did find something else more important, a love for my wife. It was a deeper and more honest love than it had ever been before. Like I said, I was lucky. I just found something that I already had but spent years trying to deny. I needed someone and she was already there.
"Certainly, there's value in having a "functioning, relatively normal family". That's way more than a lot of people are blessed with, and doing anything to disrupt that sometimes seems like a direct slap in the face to God and those you love. But if the relationship you have doesn't speak to you deeply or make you love and feel loved and understood for all of yours and your spouse's most positive and negative characteristics, can you ever be as good to yourself and those you love as you need to be? Is there a way to be a great parent if you don't live with your kids? Do I wish it was the kind of relationship that you descibe? I do, as I'm sure most of the folks on this board wish they had.
Our relationship is still complex. There are times when it still feels like a shoe that is 2 sizes too small, but there are those moments, those too often brief moments when I see the kindness in her eyes, the understanding, the love, that makes me know that everything is worth it.
Parenting is a subject I offer no advice on. I'm too busy screwing up my own kids to have any understanding on how another should do the job. :xyzthumbs
fancypants
07-12-04, 04:50 PM
This thread has made me want to vomit. I am sorry to everyone on here and I am not directing my queasyness at anyone. But, to know that men feel this way, a lot of them, and that it could be my guy makes me sad and sick. I would be devastated.
sadic, I hope you and wife can find happiness together. BV, I am glad you and your wife did.
Ya'll don't get it. Sadic is happy with himself. He's happy that his wife is the way she is. He's just not happy that they are together.
To borrow a phrase: It's the guilt, stupid.
hasbeen99
07-12-04, 04:57 PM
Though I've always loved, respected, and been drawn to her as a person, I'm fairly sure she's never been exactly what I've wanted, and I've always felt guilt for having been blessed with someone so great that I can't fully commit to.
If you don't mind me asking, is it some kind of ethereal, chemistry thing that's missing or is it part of her character/personality you can't overlook? I would submit to you that if you choose to hold out for your exact ideal, you may be waiting a long, long time. Many people go a lifetime without finding a relationship as good as you have now.
I was incredibly issue-laden when we met, a few years after my mom's suicide and very self destructive. I clung to her out of a sense of desperation, a virtual survival instinct, and she loved me unconditionally, essentially replacing that which I'd lost before her. I know I also represented some value to her other than just the fact that she was in love with me. During our 12 year marriage, we've helped each other through each of our mountains of issues. Sexual, family related, all kinds of stuff. We've had great conversation, great sex, lots of fun, and of course the 3 great kids.
Sounds like you've built a good marriage and a great family, even if it started out for dysfunctional reasons. The past is the past, and you've moved through it. What you have now sounds very good.
But somewhere inside of me, I think I've always known and denied that this was not "the person", and I don't believe who that person is is something we get to choose.
Here's where you and I disagree. I've never bought into the one person destined for another theory. I've always believed a relationship is what the people involved choose to make it. But that's just my opinion, FWIW.
I just don't know if divorce is a viable choice where the kids are concerned, and I'm curious about the relative value of staying together for their sake versus acknowledging following one's true heart. There's a utopian in my heart that says that there's no way I can spread the positivity that I need to if my heart isn't where it needs to be, and a Catholic in there that says divorce is just bad for kids, so suck it up.
Whatever choice you make, you're going to be teaching your kids an important life lesson. Either you'll teach them that finding your predestined soulmate is more important than keeping a family together, or you'll teach them that the needs of your wife and kids are more important than your own. I don't say this to be judgmental, even though I know it probably sounds that way. The choice is yours alone to make, and either way there is sacrifice. I still think it boils down to the simple question of whether you want to be married to your wife.
BigVito
07-12-04, 04:59 PM
This thread has made me want to vomit. I am sorry to everyone on here and I am not directing my queasyness at anyone. But, to know that men feel this way, a lot of them, and that it could be my guy makes me sad and sick. I would be devastated.
sadic, I hope you and wife can find happiness together. BV, I am glad you and your wife did.FP, why do you think men spend so much time watching sports? Or working on "projects" in the yard or in the shop? Hmmm?
I don't think all men feel this way. I think it is a select few that always find a way to screw up a good thing. Self destructive behaviors take many forms.
builder
07-12-04, 05:01 PM
Drinking too excess and making a fool of oneself is a big sign.
hasbeen99
07-12-04, 05:01 PM
Sadic is happy with himself.
Dunno if I'd agree with that. I may be wrong, though.
BigVito
07-12-04, 05:02 PM
Ya'll don't get it. Sadic is happy with himself. He's happy that his wife is the way she is. He's just not happy that they are together. Builder, you are probably right. I have no reason to doubt Sadic's word.
I just am saddened to see any relationship end especially one that has lasted a while.
builder
07-12-04, 05:04 PM
relationships come and go. People and their wants change. After my last one, I figure I'll never be unhappy for too long again with the person I consider my Significant other. True, it may hurt him in the short term, but a life with someone that doesn't want to be with you is no life at all.
twentybelow0
07-12-04, 05:08 PM
MD 20/20 :laugh1: :barf:
Oh gawd that brings back some memories.
twentybelow0
07-12-04, 05:11 PM
HB, where were you 10 months ago? you could have saved me and the wife a lot of money.
Hell if I can break down and see a marriage shrink with the wife so can everyone else. :laugh1:
Like EVERY fucked up thing. The gas station girl and other phone numbers offered to me unsolicited didn't even make the cut. I'm just tired of being emotionally uninvested in the relationship and felt it time to force the issue by stepping up and starting to be honest about who I am. She's an incredible find as a person and very giving, but maybe just not for me, and I think I've always known that. She made it easy to just ride along by requiring very little of me, and I anesthetized myself with sex with her in great volume and other stuff, but it never did the trick. This is one of those things that if I heard of someone else doing it, I might think they were stupid, but having now done it, I know it was right, regardless of the fallout. She, of course, was initially very kind and forgiving, told me she'd always love me and still wanted to be married to me if I decide I can love her all the way and feel truly committed. We'll see what happens when I call her in a few minutes, now that she's had some time to stew. It's good to be alive.
i have yet to read anything past this, but this is why you are one of my favorites. you can come down here if she gives you das boot.
two-six
07-12-04, 05:29 PM
sadic, do you see your kids being as fucked up as you are? if so, could you please keep them out of the mt pleasant school system. i don't want them fucking up my kids. :xyzthumbs
If you don't mind me asking, is it some kind of ethereal, chemistry thing that's missing or is it part of her character/personality you can't overlook? I would submit to you that if you choose to hold out for your exact ideal, you may be waiting a long, long time. Many people go a lifetime without finding a relationship as good as you have now.
Sounds like you've built a good marriage and a great family, even if it started out for dysfunctional reasons. The past is the past, and you've moved through it. What you have now sounds very good.
Here's where you and I disagree. I've never bought into the one person destined for another theory. I've always believed a relationship is what the people involved choose to make it. But that's just my opinion, FWIW.
Whatever choice you make, you're going to be teaching your kids an important life lesson. Either you'll teach them that finding your predestined soulmate is more important than keeping a family together, or you'll teach them that the needs of your wife and kids are more important than your own. I don't say this to be judgmental, even though I know it probably sounds that way. The choice is yours alone to make, and either way there is sacrifice. I still think it boils down to the simple question of whether you want to be married to your wife.
I don't particularly believe that there's one "soulmate" or that kind of crap. There were a lot of things about my wife that I was willing to overlook or thought I could change for the sake of the emotional security and love she provided at the time. The flip side of the emotional security is a sense of emotional control and willfulness that she's imposed upon me over the years to the point where I've really sort of lost myself in the process. I have no right to bitch about these things. I signed up for them. That doesn't make them or their affect any less true, though, nor my struggle to get out from under them. They're all things that would be fine with the right 2 people together and cause no negative affects. I also see numerous ways in which I've subtly abused her over the years, both proactively and in retaliation, and I feel that she's not even begun to notice them even though I do. She's easy to live with, and I can do that for the sake of her and the kids. I'm just not sure that's right or fair to me or them, though it very well might be. Either way, I know I need to come clean with her if we're ever going to get right. I wouldn't say I'm happy with myself yet. I've got a lot of self hate left in me, but I know without becoming more honest, I have no basis to even start from, so I am happier with myself today than yesterday. The question is whether or not my overall happiness matters, and whether or not there are elements inherent in our union that promote my self hate. So far, I feel there are. The question is whether or not it's possible to reduce or eliminate them within the context of the marriage, whether I need some time to separate and regroup to get a grasp on it all, or whether it's possible that there's someone else out there who's simply a more natural fit and with whom a naturally healthy relationship and mutual promotion of self esteem can exist. I don't regret or ultimately think my relationship with my wife has been a big mistake. It was clearly all that we were capable of dealing with at the time, and without it, I'd be way more fucked up than I am right now. But do some relationships have expiration dates? I don't know. Statistically, meatpile is right, more divorced people are unhappy than happy, but I can't really worry about most people.
i have yet to read anything past this, but this is why you are one of my favorites. you can come down here if she gives you das boot.
Thanks, man. You are and always have been incredibly supportive throughout all my bullshit. Lots of people here have been. I love the pricks too. That's why I give you guys everything I've got.
hasbeen99
07-12-04, 05:41 PM
HB, where were you 10 months ago? you could have saved me and the wife a lot of money.
Right here, 20. I'm available to anyone, anytime. :)
wow.
i have to go to a cooking class now, but i'll be on later.
two weeks in pennsylvania? she leaving the kids with you?
hasbeen99
07-12-04, 06:09 PM
Thanks for the last post, Sadic. It let me know I was seeing the wrong picture. Lemme tell you what I'm understanding and see if I'm getting a more accurate feel for what's going on...
Your marriage was forged in co-dependency. Now you've turned your life around for the most part (with a lot of her love and support along the way), and you're questioning whether or not you truly love her. You think she's a great woman, and you appreciate her, value her frienship, and you have a great time physically, but you don't think what you have is truly love.
If that's anywhere near accurate, I agree that the value of your happiness is in question. The reality is, you're in a marriage to a decent woman with three kids. I think the real question isn't how you got here, but what can you make out of the situation you're in?
I understand that because of the foundation of your relationship with your wife, being with her is a constant reminder of your past, and why you got together with her in the first place. I can see where that could act as an irritant to old wounds. But that's not the way it has to be. You can choose to love her, and she can choose to love you as you truly are, not because you need her. Yes, your relationship has to radically change. Your coming clean with her is the first step in that direction. She's in Pennsylvania right now deciding if she wants to try to love you as you are, considering the new information she just got. You can start a new life -- a real and genuine life -- with her from here, if you both want to. It is possible.
WilliamJ
07-12-04, 06:57 PM
I just told my wife just about EVERY fucked up thing I've done during our marriage.
i agree this is the right thing. honesty builds intimacy.
I don't know if this is true in your case Sadic, but it appears that you are in a "I love her, but not in love with her" syndrome. One that nearly each spouse goes through at one time or another. Fortunately, for you, usually this disappears and is replaced by a more mature love and many ways more satisfying.
Caution..many times in this situation one of the spouse is out "tasting" their options with a replacement...which leads to betrayal and ultimate divorce.
I agree with many on here that all married people question their relationship at one point or another. And yes in good relationships it does pass and is replaced with a stronger bond. But if it is something that just won't go away you do need to do something about it. I know I would not want someone staying with me that didn't want to be there. In your case you do have children to consider. I don't know if the case to stay together for the children's sake is always a good one. But I do believe in doing everything possible to save it before throwing in the towel.
builder
07-12-04, 08:55 PM
May I interject a little humor?
May I interject a little humor?
No. Not that you did anyway.
builder
07-12-04, 08:58 PM
No. Not that you did anyway.
lick my furry ass.
lick my furry ass.
I'm not sure which thought bothers me more. Licking ass or the thought of a furry ass.
Ok. I'm sure. I can always shave.
builder
07-12-04, 09:04 PM
I'm not sure which thought bothers me more. Licking ass or the fact that yours is furry.
It's just hair. blonde. But it's long.
HighPoint49er
07-12-04, 09:11 PM
a life with someone that doesn't want to be with you is no life at all.
It took me a while to realize this.
I don't know if the case to stay together for the children's sake is always a good one. But I do believe in doing everything possible to save it before throwing in the towel.
After completing a court-ordered psychological evaluation (myself, the ex and the 2 boys) two weeks ago I asked the good doctor about clients he had in that situation. His theory was that it is simply too easy to walk away. People DO suffer, it is usually the kids immediately, but the parents may sometimes suffer after the fact when they realize what they have done to "ruin" loved ones. He told me of one woman who said 5 years after walking away from her family, had she known beforehand what she knows now, she would've worked harder, and sought any counseling available before making a move. Now, the rest of the family has moved on without her, and she's the one with the "problems."
You've been honest sadic. She respects you for that and we do here as well. One of the most profound statements I ever heard in a college classroom from one of my professors was... "In any relationship, when there is a crisis, both parties must take the relationship to a deeper level of commitment or the relationship will eventually end." I've found this to be true in my business life and personal life. I think you both will be willing to now go to a higher step soon, one neither of you dreamed existed.
Love takes work. Good luck, my friend.
HulkaManiaRunninWild
07-12-04, 09:17 PM
Hey Sadic,
All though I goof a lot as it pertains to homosexuality, I hope all of this works out for you and your family as good as possible. Man, yer in a tough situation. I hope it all works for you. Good luck!
Hang in, :xyzthumbs
Hulk
Village Idiot
07-12-04, 09:27 PM
I don't know if this is true in your case Sadic, but it appears that you are in a "I love her, but not in love with her" syndrome. One that nearly each spouse goes through at one time or another. Fortunately, for you, usually this disappears and is replaced by a more mature love and many ways more satisfyingAgape love
There are no perfect marriages. The lasting ones are a continual work in progress. True, some appear to be tighter "fits" than others, but looks can be deceiving especially from the other side of the fence. I made my mind up a long time ago that I would make our marriage work, or at least do MY part. But first I had to learn alot. I was a big time hothead, opinionated, the works. I came from a broken home, I did not know how to act, how to commit myself, I fought it the whole way for years. Sometimes I wonder why my wife put up with my crap. I know that we are all different but love is the strongest foundation we have. If it is present, the rest will follow suit. There is no stronger tie between us as humans.
voyergirl
07-12-04, 09:40 PM
there are a few hearts hurting tonight. sadic, i have to ask as you sit there tonight do you find yourself wanting to lay your head in her arms and silently feel one another? or are you sitting there relived to be alone tonight?
mike and i have been together A LONG TIME and i too have felt some of these things you have mentioned. i am not at the point of where you are, when he is not here i miss him. i still want him.
i really wish the best for you first. you are one of us. get yourself in order and i am sure you'll be what your kids need you to be. it seems your wife will be okay in the long run but i will admit i am wondering if she is torn apart inside and just putting up a good show for you.
i am not happy for you tonight but saddened by the thought of two people who still love each other not being together.
i still don't have any fully formed thoughts on this. i have more questions:
* what is your "perfect match"? what's lacking in your wife?
* i thought about what i said in my first post "...if she gives you das boot." and i think i stumbled onto something. you seem to have laid all this out there, leaving the ball in her court. you are giving up your power -- or are unwilling to make the decision -- to leave. you have built up a rock-solid case for her to be judge, jury and executioner against you and nobody would argue that you were the ass and that she should leave you. but that releives you from the burden of guilt, in a way -- doesn't it? i mean, if you made the decision to leave, then (if it hurts anyone, say the kids) it is all on you -- you were the one who scarred them. however, if she leaves you, then SHE'S the one who couldn't deal with the "real" you, so she can be the "bad guy". you put a lot on her shoulders. i don't think any of this was done consciously. i did the same thing in the past, so i can see some similarities. i cheated on my girlfriend with gina for six months. i had made the decision to leave her, but never told her that. i had to hit her over the head with my not wanting to be in the relationship -- instead of me just owning up to it and leaving for the unknown of a future with gina. that was twelve years ago.
ok, maybe i did have a thought. i just had to start typing.
i still don't have any fully formed thoughts on this. i have more questions:
* what is your "perfect match"? what's lacking in your wife?
* i thought about what i said in my first post "...if she gives you das boot." and i think i stumbled onto something. you seem to have laid all this out there, leaving the ball in her court. you are giving up your power -- or are unwilling to make the decision -- to leave. you have built up a rock-solid case for her to be judge, jury and executioner against you and nobody would argue that you were the ass and that she should leave you. but that releives you from the burden of guilt, in a way -- doesn't it? i mean, if you made the decision to leave, then (if it hurts anyone, say the kids) it is all on you -- you were the one who scarred them. however, if she leaves you, then SHE'S the one who couldn't deal with the "real" you, so she can be the "bad guy". you put a lot on her shoulders. i don't think any of this was done consciously. i did the same thing in the past, so i can see some similarities. i cheated on my girlfriend with gina for six months. i had made the decision to leave her, but never told her that. i had to hit her over the head with my not wanting to be in the relationship -- instead of me just owning up to it and leaving for the unknown of a future with gina. that was twelve years ago.
ok, maybe i did have a thought. i just had to start typing.
\
I dunno I think it boils down to it cuts him a better deal if she leaves with no real proof other than his admissions. If he sues for divorce he will be left a dickless wonder.
vpkozel
07-12-04, 11:11 PM
* i thought about what i said in my first post "...if she gives you das boot." and i think i stumbled onto something. you seem to have laid all this out there, leaving the ball in her court. you are giving up your power -- or are unwilling to make the decision -- to leave. you have built up a rock-solid case for her to be judge, jury and executioner against you and nobody would argue that you were the ass and that she should leave you. but that releives you from the burden of guilt, in a way -- doesn't it? i mean, if you made the decision to leave, then (if it hurts anyone, say the kids) it is all on you -- you were the one who scarred them. however, if she leaves you, then SHE'S the one who couldn't deal with the "real" you, so she can be the "bad guy". you put a lot on her shoulders. i don't think any of this was done consciously. i did the same thing in the past, so i can see some similarities. i cheated on my girlfriend with gina for six months. i had made the decision to leave her, but never told her that. i had to hit her over the head with my not wanting to be in the relationship -- instead of me just owning up to it and leaving for the unknown of a future with gina. that was twelve years ago.
ok, maybe i did have a thought. i just had to start typing.
The irony is that if she does chose to dump him then she has bascially stopped being so forgiving, nice, sweet, and all the other things that bother sadic.
The irony is that if she does chose to dump him then she has bascially stopped being so forgiving, nice, sweet, and all the other things that bother sadic.
he will pine for her forever, realizing she is the "total package". sadic sets himself up for failure -- he must not like himself. :)
he will pine for her forever, realizing she is the "total package". sadic sets himself up for failure -- he must not like himself. :)
he probably feels guilty that his success has come with so little suffering and feels that he must atone. it's part of the move back home at 35 syndrome that most northeasterners suffer from.
plutosgirl
07-13-04, 12:07 AM
There's so many things to explore here, I'm rooting for him to be happy, but staying with his wife isn't necessarily the right choice. From my observations of Sadic- he's a seeker and it's not a character trait I envy. It's tough to be forced to make a conscious decision to be happy. My concerns are- has he put himself in the scenarios that would arise by going through a separation/divorce?
It's 2007, his wife has moved on. He's dated every single and sometimes married woman that suited his fancy for 3 years and it's left him every bit as empty as he was before the divorce. It's Christmas morning, snowing in Charlotte- the kids are in Pennsylvania with his ex and her family and he's alone. He calls the kids and they seem happy- they are calling the step dad- 'Daddy Hugh'. The ex seems indifferent, glad he called for the kids sake- but obviously the call stirred no other emotion in her- how will he handle that?
Another thing I believe pertinent is the fact that Sadic's wife has been a great wife, mother and teacher for the children. Her only purpose in life thus far has been to serve others. How would her life differed and how would Sadic have felt about her if she had lived for herself as well? Is some of the respect/love lost because there is no 'her', only an extension of the family? Had she had a career, an abundance of friends, nights out and actual adult interaction, had she grown and not become stagnant as a person- would it have mattered? Even if the answer is yes, can it be changed at this stage of the game?
While I was reading this there was part of me singing... 'And the Eagle flies with the dove, if you can't be with the one you love honey, love the one you're with'.
Another part of me was singing 'I've got to set myself free, time for me to fly, that's just how it's got to be, I know it hurts to say Goodbye, but it's time for me to fly'
I'm sorry you aren't happy, I wish the best for you.
Hey Sadic--
I'd give you some input, but my marriage failed too and I don't think I'm in a position to give advice on it at this point in life. But in any case, best of luck and my you choose a path in the best interest of your entire family. Health and strength.
May I interject a little humor?
Freakin' homo. I just spewed Coke all over my desk. You owe me a new keyboard. Preesh. :teeth:
So much good stuff from everyone. First, the update.
She just left for PA with the kids. We spent all day after work and all night talking last night. Didn't sleep at all. I'm not a crier, but I've never cried so much in 34 years as I have in the last 18 hours. It just won't stop. At no time since I told her everything has she expressed an ounce of anger. She's apologized for her part in whatever has caused me to feel so unable to commit and love fully. This in and of itself bothers me and is part of what bothers me about her in general. It's beautiful that she can see clearly enough to not be destructive in reaction to sadness, but it also feels like a form of emotional blackmail. More on that later. Already she has said that she wants us to stay together. She's going away, not so that she can think, but so that I can think and because she's uncomfortable in the house. As of now, she has 4 conditions under which she will get back together with me.
- I have to commit to her unconditionally
- I have to marry her in the Catholic church (we were married in an assembly of God church because we couldn't meet the Catholic requirements of attending pre-marital councelling together because I was away in basic training for the Air Force)
- I have to take her on a honeymoon (we didn't have the time or money at first)
- I have to get a vasectomy reversal
As for the problems in our relationship, here are the foundational problems.
We mutually acknowledge that neither of us has been as giving, trusting, or committed to the relationship as 2 people should be. For me, this was based on broad and general disillusionment and abandonment issues after my mom's long bout with schizophrenia and eventual suicide, and the complete tearing apart of my extended family that resulted from trying to deal with it, both from a practical standpoint and emotionally. I feel unworthy of love, can't imagine what could be so wrong with someone that would love me, and assume the other shoe is about drop any moment, so I stay uninvested enough to deal with it if it whould happen.
Her biggest issues stem from having gotten an abortion while we were in the first year of our dating. I knocked her up and then made it clear that at 19 and in college, I was not going to be a father. I basically let her know that if she was going to have it, she'd be having it alone, and suggested the abortion. She did it and regretted it the whole way, and we stayed together. She never truly trusted me after that, but still wanted to be with me. I eventually married her because I knew how badly that hurt her and I felt guilty for essentially contributing to her internal destruction. I knew she desperately wanted me to marry her, and I didn't want to hurt her again. Not until about 4 years ago did I actually acknowledge to formally apologize to her for what I consider to be my significant part in her getting the abortion and turning against her heart. This went a long way toward her starting to trust me emotionally, but didn't do shit for my issues.
As for why I love her but am not in love with her, I got something very different than what I signed up for. When we met, we were both at Rutgers. She was a pharmacy major. She wanted to have a career, have kids a few years after getting married, put them in daycare, and generally be an independent woman in an adult relationship. This is what I've always wanted. I've got an edge on me, and I need someone to match my intensity and stand up for themselves or I will run them over. She didn't like Rutgers and went to Loyola University in Chicago for nursing. We tried to break up (actually, I tried to break up with her on numerous occasions and always went back). Eventually, I went in the Air Force so we could get married, and she enrolled in nursing school in Texas where I was stationed. I immediately got her pregnant. She planned on continuing school and working out a daycare situation and me watching the kid for night classes. The day my first kid was born, mommy shit kicked in, and boom, there was no way she was going to have anyone but her watch that kid. She was staying home. I was like, "What?!". She said she felt strongly about it, and that she had a "spiritual calling" to doing this. I said OK and decided to be truly supportive of that. 2 more kids later, I don't think it was the wrong thing for her to want to do. I see the benefits of it and actually think it's better than daycare, but I didn't and wouldn't have signed up for it anyway. Fast forward to the first kid getting ready to go to school. We sent him to kindergarten, and by the end of the year, she was so disillusioned that she discovered a "spiritual calling" to homeschool the kid. I'm like, "What?!". She feels strongly about it, so I decide I'm going to be truly supportive. Like the daycare thing, I like the results of her homeschooling the kids and think it's better, but I didn't and wouldn't have signed up for it anyway. Next, the kids are getting older and she's having what I figure is a natural desire for more kids. We're fresh off my apology about the abortion thing and her starting to heal from that, and she wants me to get a vasectomy reversal and have MORE kids. I'm like, "What!? We're this close to getting some semblance of an adult life back and you want this?" Wait, not only is it a "spiritual calling", but if I don't do it, I'll be somehow harming our existing children. The idea that she would question my love for the kids because I didn't want to submit to her "spiritual calling" sent me reeling. Even so, I actually made the appointment to the reversal, then bailed at the last minute because I just couldn't see it. That's when I called it a day and started to shit the bed and behave really badly.
Now that she's seen what it did to me and has had more time to deal with her abortion issues, she realizes that she was being willful and scapegoating God for what she secretly always wanted in life. We've apologized to each other and I know I can't hold that anger, and it's almost gone. But when it's all said and done, and even though we're relatively close to being able to have an adult relationship and let the kids watch themselves (woops, no we're not because she still wants me to get a vasectomy reversal so that we can start our relationship anew with the possibility of new life), the bottom line is that I married someone who was born to be no more and no less than a mommy, and that's always the person she'll be. She's beautiful and almost a perfect mommy, but that's not what I signed up for and not what I want, and I might like the chance to find what I originally thought I had but was too blind to notice was not. This woman just learned how to pump her own gas and pay with a debit card yesterday in preparation for her big solo adventure to PA, and I had to go to the gas station with her at her request and make sure it went OK.
If that sounds like bitching, it is. She has just as much or more to bitch about than I do, and I know that.
vpkozel
07-13-04, 12:10 PM
can't imagine what could be so wrong with someone that would love me,
Me either. That'll be $200.
Wow. It sounds like you wanted an independent woman that would stand up for herself or you would run over her but she seems she is controlling you in a passive way.
Me either. That'll be $200.
Don't forget the swift kick in the ass.
Captain Morgan
07-13-04, 12:16 PM
I hate it when people post personal shit about their marriages in R&R.
Sadic, up for a ride this weekend?
vpkozel
07-13-04, 12:17 PM
Sadic – seriously – haven’t some of your priorities changed in the last – what 15 years? Apparently so have hers. You always seem to paint your wife as so willing to go along with what you want and not stand up for herself, but the fact that she is doing EXACTLY that seems to escape you. She knows exactly what she wants – and here is the funny part – she knows exactly how to manipulate you to get it too. Seems pretty obvious to me that the sweet goodie two shoes DOES have an edge to her – and it is so sharp that she has been cutting you and you didn’t even know it.
Sadic – seriously – haven’t some of your priorities changed in the last – what 15 years? Apparently so have hers. You always seem to paint your wife as so willing to go along with what you want and not stand up for herself, but the fact that she is doing EXACTLY that seems to escape you. She knows exactly what she wants – and here is the funny part – she knows exactly how to manipulate you to get it too. Seems pretty obvious to me that the sweet goodie two shoes DOES have an edge to her – and it is so sharp that she has been cutting you and you didn’t even know it.
I'm well aware that she's been manipulative and dishonest, as is she. That's exactly what I'm saying, and I've stated that's not what I've wanted. I've wanted someone who's preferences and demeanor are more in line with my own. Her priorities have not changed at all, though. They've been the same since the beginning.
I'm well aware that she's been manipulative and dishonest, as is she. That's exactly what I'm saying, and I've stated that's not what I've wanted. I've wanted someone who's preferences and demeanor are more in line with my own. Her priorities have not changed at all, though. They've been the same since the beginning.
But at first she wanted to be a pharmacist and the whole day care and all but when she had the first child that all changed.
But at first she wanted to be a pharmacist and the whole day care and all but when she had the first child that all changed.
If it was only the day care thing, I could understand. I think there's an obvious pattern and it's not over yet if she's still putting vasectomy reversal down as a pre-req for staying together. Like I said, I don't begrudge her what she wants, but it's not what I want. I'm not sure how long I'm supposed to suck it up. I'll do whatever it takes if we split up to allow her to keep doing what she's doing. I'll live in a cardboard box, but I am sometimes curious to know whether or not I'd be happy with the type of person that I originally thought would make me happy.
I'll live in a cardboard box, but I am sometimes curious to know whether or not I'd be happy with the type of person that I originally thought would make me happy.
I'm curious to know how things would have turned out different if she had told you to go and fuck yourself and have that kid instead of the abortion.
I'm curious to know how things would have turned out different if she had told you to go and fuck yourself and have that kid instead of the abortion.
We both wonder that and have talked about it. That's what she should have done, just like I shouldn't have married her knowing she wasn't the love of my life, but that's all water under the bridge now, and one has to believe that whatever happened since happened for a reason. What's the most productive way to move forward from there?
Rumpeltiltspin
07-13-04, 12:37 PM
What do you do when you've been married for 18 years (been together for 22), have two kids (13, 8), get along OK for 50%. Hate each other's presence 25%. And disslike each other's presence 25%.
She's a beauthiful 38 yo, and many men would want her.
Our sex life has always been non-descript. I always wanted her, she didn't give a fuck.
We've both cheated and know it.
Now she wants me, and I seriously don't care to have sex with her at all. I don't cheat, tho I enjoy it with myself better than with her. Scary.
I love her. I love having a family and a 'home'.
The kids get on our nerves real bad sometimes. But generally great kids, just nerve racking bad at times. She's always yelling at them. Never heard her even raise her voice before we had kids.
She's supportive at time, purely know it all complete bitch at times.
She's a bitch 30%. (I mean seriously bitch).
She's loving and caring OK 40%.
She's VERY loving and caring 30%.
It's like jeckle and hyde, both of us.
We both seem committed, and don't leave, yet want too at times bad.
I feel at times almost daily in her presence that I've gotta leave to keep my sanity. But I don't.
When we're not together I love her and miss her deeply.
Seriously what's wrong here?
While we're on the subject.
Thanks.
Sorry Sad, I'm in no position to help you, tho wish ya luck.
What do you do when you've been married for 18 years (been together for 22), have two kids (13, 8), get along OK for 50%. Hate each other's presence 25%. And disslike each other's presence 25%.
She's a beauthiful 38 yo, and many men would want her.
Our sex life has always been non-descript. I always wanted her, she didn't give a fuck.
We've both cheated and know it.
Now she wants me, and I seriously don't care to have sex with her at all. I don't cheat, tho I enjoy it with myself better than with her. Scary.
I love her. I love having a family and a 'home'.
The kids get on our nerves real bad sometimes. But generally great kids, just nerve racking bad at times. She's always yelling at them. Never heard her even raise her voice before we had kids.
She's supportive at time, purely know it all complete bitch at times.
She's a bitch 30%. (I mean seriously bitch).
She's loving and caring OK 40%.
She's VERY loving and caring 30%.
It's like jeckle and hyde, both of us.
We both seem committed, and don't leave, yet want too at times bad.
I feel at times almost daily in her presence that I've gotta leave to keep my sanity. But I don't.
When we're not together I love her and miss her deeply.
Seriously what's wrong here?
While we're on the subject.
Thanks.
Sorry Sad, I'm in no position to help you, tho wish ya luck.
The more the merrier, man! Misery love company. I wish you luck, too.
Here's something that bugs me when people talk about staying together. Everyone talks about a relationship and a family as something you "have" (if you're lucky). They talk about it as something you should try to "save". It all seems sort of...materialistic. Like don't risk what you've got because you could end up with less. Shouldn't we end up with what we're supposed to end up with? Isn't it possible to be just as alone in a house full of people as alone? What if I end up feeling deeply like I have to get out of the relationship and see if there's a better fit somewhere else, and it so happens that it's not and I end up alone a la Plutogirl's description. If the first relationship wasn't right, shouldn't I accept what I end up with and figure out why that was meant to be?
I would just like to thank everyone involved in this thread for helping me come to the realization that marriage is a horrible idea. :xyzthumbs
I would just like to thank everyone involved in this thread for helping me come to the realization that marriage is a horrible idea. :xyzthumbs
We could have told you that just based on the fact that your boyfriend is an asshole. ;)
builder
07-13-04, 12:46 PM
I would just like to thank everyone involved in this thread for helping me come to the realization that marriage is a horrible idea. :xyzthumbs
stupid fags. They're gonna fuck it up for us good. :teeth:
marriage = death.
I would just like to thank everyone involved in this thread for helping me come to the realization that marriage is a horrible idea. :xyzthumbs
If you need something to shoot for, try and see how long you can string out living together without actually getting married.
builder
07-13-04, 12:50 PM
If you need something to shoot for, try and see how long you can string out living together without actually getting married.
Your wife won.
If you need something to shoot for, try and see how long you can string out living together without actually getting married.doing it now
Village Idiot
07-13-04, 01:18 PM
- I have to commit to her unconditionally
- I have to marry her in the Catholic church (we were married in an assembly of God church because we couldn't meet the Catholic requirements of attending pre-marital councelling together because I was away in basic training for the Air Force)
- I have to take her on a honeymoon (we didn't have the time or money at first)
- I have to get a vasectomy reversalDid you give her a list?
Seriously, I know these things are obviously important to her but they appear to be only symbolic to her in some way. Women are hard to figure sometimes. What good are renewing your vows the next time an issue crops up, and we all know they do. Honeymoons are nice as well but she wont come back if you say no to that? Extra kids might fill a void for her maternal desires but they wont save a marriage. I've seen that movie before. The real issue here is do you both love each other enough to make it work. You may ask, why do we have to "make it work"? My answer to that is this. We all do. If you love that girl enough and I really think that you do, MAKE IT WORK. I know that sounds too simple, but we aint talkin rocket science here. Love is love.
I also hope that she is willing give in to a few of your desires as well, its a two-way street. Good luck dude, you sound like a good guy. Peace.
two-six
07-13-04, 02:03 PM
so you're upset that she is a stay at home mom who homeschools your kids. haven't we all heard you say over and over thats what a woman should do? i'm confused.
two-six
07-13-04, 02:04 PM
I would just like to thank everyone involved in this thread for helping me come to the realization that marriage is a horrible idea. :xyzthumbs
just with the wrong person it is. you ain't got nothin to worry about.
Her biggest issues stem from having gotten an abortion while we were in the first year of our dating. I knocked her up and then made it clear that at 19 and in college, I was not going to be a father. I basically let her know that if she was going to have it, she'd be having it alone, and suggested the abortion. She did it and regretted it the whole way, and we stayed together. She never truly trusted me after that, but still wanted to be with me. I eventually married her because I knew how badly that hurt her and I felt guilty for essentially contributing to her internal destruction. I knew she desperately wanted me to marry her, and I didn't want to hurt her again. Not until about 4 years ago did I actually acknowledge to formally apologize to her for what I consider to be my significant part in her getting the abortion and turning against her heart. This went a long way toward her starting to trust me emotionally, but didn't do shit for my issues.
OH WOW HUGE issue here. The root and stem of your problem. Forget the whole thing if your not going to deal with the issue that you guys killed your first kid. You can get beyond this, but not without couseling.
two-six
07-13-04, 02:05 PM
OH WOW HUGE issue here. The root and stem of your problem. Forget the whole thing if your not going to deal with the issue that you guys killed your first kid. You can get beyond this, but not without couseling.
hey, biblethumper, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you have to be an ass.
so you're upset that she is a stay at home mom who homeschools your kids. haven't we all heard you say over and over thats what a woman should do? i'm confused.
I'm all for it and think it's a wonderful thing, but I was browbeaten into it and the lifestyle that goes with it, and it's not what I would have chosen for my wife or myself. And no, I don't think it's for everyone or the only way to raise and educate a good kid, and I've not said that. I do think the public school system sucks and is a total minefield for kids, parents, and teachers alike.
I'm all for it and think it's a wonderful thing, but I was browbeaten into it and the lifestyle that goes with it, and it's not what I would have chosen for my wife or myself. And no, I don't think it's for everyone or the only way to raise and educate a good kid, and I've not said that. I do think the public school system sucks and is a total minefield for kids, parents, and teachers alike.
How much of going from "pharmacy major at Rutgers" to "needs help to pump gas" involved brow beating and how much involved choice?
hey, biblethumper, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you have to be an ass.
He's not wrong. It IS a huge issue, and we've been dealing with it, though I don't think the kind of counseling he would recommend would be something I'd find valuable any more than his assinine assertion that allowing one's emotions to affect their decisions is a bad idea. Denying one's emotions is what leads so many biblethumpers to leading double lives, and it hasn't helped me much these last 12 years either.
two-six
07-13-04, 02:21 PM
He's not wrong. It IS a huge issue, and we've been dealing with it, though I don't think the kind of counseling he would recommend would be something I'd find valuable any more than his assinine assertion that allowing one's emotions to affect their decisions is a bad idea. Denying one's emotions is what leads so many biblethumpers to leading double lives, and it hasn't helped me much these last 12 years either.
oh, i wasn't arguing that it was a huge issue. i was replying about the way he worded it.
How much of going from "pharmacy major at Rutgers" to "needs help to pump gas" involved brow beating and how much involved choice?
What do you mean?
oh, i wasn't arguing that it was a huge issue. i was replying about the way he worded it.
Well, I appreciate that.
meatpile
07-13-04, 02:27 PM
Careful - that's all I can say.
Some of the biggest mistakes in my life have been driven by the desire for things I thought I wanted. Then, I'd get them, and realize they weren;t what I wanted. And in pursuit of those 'waterfalls', I'd destroy the things that brought me true happiness. More, I'd jeopardize my ability to bring happiness into the lives of others.
Self centeredness, self centered fear can fuck you up. I'm NOT saying that's what you're doing, I could never give someone I don't really know - or even someone I do know - 'advice' in this type of scenario. Just be careful - everything you've ever deemed important enough to stick with is at stake. The stuff you turned your back on years ago - well, you chose differently back then for a reason.
Tilt, you are scaring me.
Even though we've barely seen each other for 6 months (work), we have a fairly healthy marriage, sex life, hang out together, the whole bit. This is after 4 years of marriage.
Chances of this continuing are..... (we have no kids)?
I hear of so many unhappy people, or rather content people in a situation that would drive me bonkers.
What do you mean?
I mean it seems to be a bit of a stretch to me to think that someone could go from a possible pharmacist to a codependent that needs your help to pump gas by her own simple choices and her "mommy drive" kicking in.
Everything in that long post from this morning seems - and I say seem cause I am just assuming based on what I have read - to stem from that abortion and all of the choices/things that resulted from it. So I'm just trying to fill in some blanks since I'm only getting one side here.
Growing up can really suck sometimes, sadic. Been there. Done that. Well, never had an abortion. But anyway, facing your own truths is a difficult thing to do. Understanding issues and how they affect us is the first step in overcoming them. For me, when I understood what motivated me to feel and act certain ways, it was a tremendous relief. And the understanding made the choices and necessary actions a tiny bit easier to face. The biggest revelation in my life was that the whole world didn't revolve around me and my feelings. I could be extremely selfish and self-centered. I want what I want when I want it, that was my motto. Glad those days are gone...but I had to grow up.
This is all cliche', I know, but it is the honest truth.
The best to you and your family.
Just be careful - everything you've ever deemed important enough to stick with is at stake. The stuff you turned your back on years ago - well, you chose differently back then for a reason.
That's a bit how I feel. I'd rather not go back to when I was 25.
Sadic, it sounds a bit to me like you've got some personal issues to work on for you to be happy, with or without anyone. So the first question I suppose is do you want to work on those personal issues that are keeping you from being happy. And the next is do you want her with you while you do. You might want to think about doing the first before you make a decision on #2.
Chances of this continuing are..... (we have no kids)?
I hear of so many unhappy people, or rather content people in a situation that would drive me bonkers.
The chances of it continuing are better than you might think. :) Think of the unhappy people to keep you from going bonkers now.
Careful - that's all I can say.
Some of the biggest mistakes in my life have been driven by the desire for things I thought I wanted. Then, I'd get them, and realize they weren;t what I wanted. And in pursuit of those 'waterfalls', I'd destroy the things that brought me true happiness. More, I'd jeopardize my ability to bring happiness into the lives of others.
Self centeredness, self centered fear can fuck you up. I'm NOT saying that's what you're doing, I could never give someone I don't really know - or even someone I do know - 'advice' in this type of scenario. Just be careful - everything you've ever deemed important enough to stick with is at stake. The stuff you turned your back on years ago - well, you chose differently back then for a reason.
You're right about self-centeredness, and I've been guilty of that in weird ways, but overall when I take stock of the last 12 years, I feel sort of like Homer Simpson when he got his labor union to give up their dental plan for a keg of beer at each union meeting. The decision for me is whether to avoid hurting people (more) and give up the hope of having someone to be truly in the moment with or to take the chance at "losing" everything. As I stated earlier, though, I'm not sure what it is to "lose" something you don't feel that connected with. Certainly it would be hard on me and everyone else if it didn't work out, but sometimes it seems like that kind of pain is still more life-affirming than assembling and reassembling the same puzzle over and over again. What's the true value of anything other than the love you give? Is the best situation the one that allows you to give the most love? Is that really at risk? If someone saved your life, then told you that they need you and asked that you spend the rest of your life as their constant servant, would you feel obliged to do so? Random, seemilgly unrelated questions maybe, but all significant in this situation.
I mean it seems to be a bit of a stretch to me to think that someone could go from a possible pharmacist to a codependent that needs your help to pump gas by her own simple choices and her "mommy drive" kicking in.
Everything in that long post from this morning seems - and I say seem cause I am just assuming based on what I have read - to stem from that abortion and all of the choices/things that resulted from it. So I'm just trying to fill in some blanks since I'm only getting one side here.
I guess I would submit that this has been her nature all along, and I chose not to see it, and she has admitted to being somewhat deceptive about it. Of course, in retrospect, I can see the signs that I missed that pointed to how she would be down the road, but I didn't then. Even when she was a pharmacy major, we had issues over her being clingy, so I'm willing to own up to my own stupidity in not recognizing the situation, and the abortion definitely impacted everything thereafter in some way as you have indicated. Needless to say, that doesn't change my feelings or the situation now.
I guess I would submit that this has been her nature all along, and I chose not to see it, and she has admitted to being somewhat deceptive about it. Of course, in retrospect, I can see the signs that I missed that pointed to how she would be down the road, but I didn't then. Even when she was a pharmacy major, we had issues over her being clingy, so I'm willing to own up to my own stupidity in not recognizing the situation, and the abortion definitely impacted everything thereafter in some way as you have indicated. Needless to say, that doesn't change my feelings or the situation now.
Ok. Thanks. That clears some stuff up for me. Especially the admitting part. You may have said that before and I just missed it. Lotta stuff going on in this thread.
Sadic, it sounds a bit to me like you've got some personal issues to work on for you to be happy, with or without anyone. So the first question I suppose is do you want to work on those personal issues that are keeping you from being happy. And the next is do you want her with you while you do. You might want to think about doing the first before you make a decision on #2.
An excellent point and one that I've considered. She's not going to let me be away from her while I figure it out, though. She'll move away and shut the door in order to protect herself, and I don't know that that's such a bad idea. Honestly, I sometimes think I should let that happen so that she can deal with her shit separately too, and maybe we can start over again in a while. Right now, I don't feel like it's possible to work it out from within the context of the marriage, though. Chances are, the same issues will creep into any relationship I have, but I'm not so sure there isn't someone out there who's general outlook and issues aren't similar enough to mine that we can coesxist withoutht the same degree of struggle. I'd love to put myself in a bubble long enough to figure out my shit, but life has to go on in the meantime.
hey, biblethumper, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you have to be an ass.
Because I think this is a problem, that makes me a Bible thumper? Because I believe in life and the fact the need to deal with this?
Call me what you may. Its an issue.
Spud I like you and respect most of what you post but calling sadic and his wife baby killers is definately not what they need right now.
It is comments like that that turn so many people away from christians. Try using a little compassion, I'm sure you will find it works much better.
I'm sorry. It's just so obvious that she wants another baby etc etc for a reason, and I hope they find that answer.
two-six
07-13-04, 04:55 PM
Spud I like you and respect most of what you post but calling sadic and his wife baby killers is definately not what they need right now.
It is comments like that that turn so many people away from christians. Try using a little compassion, I'm sure you will find it works much better.
thank you patti. apparently he didn't understand me.
fantastic reading and thoughts.
hasbeen99
07-13-04, 05:48 PM
Sadic, before I respond any more, please tell me if I step over the line or if I should just shut up. :)
FWIW, here's my take on her list.
- I have to commit to her unconditionally.
A good idea and a sound marital principle, but it has to go both ways.
- I have to marry her in the Catholic church.
This is a good idea, too. You both consider yourselves Catholic, and if you're going to build a new life together from the ashes, getting on the same page spiritually with regard to marriage is critical, IMO. The pre-marital counseling would do you both good, even if it's not required for a second ceremony. I fought pre-marital tooth and nail, but from this side looking back I thank God we had it. It clears up a lot of misconceptions about marriage and fills in a lot of blanks. It gives you parameters to work from, and that's important.
- I have to take her on a honeymoon.
This isn't a bad idea, either. It seems like this could be part of a 'starting over' process, and that's a good thing. Yeah, it's probably a little about making up for the past, but I don't think it's mostly about that. At least, I don't think it has to be.
- I have to get a vasectomy reversal.
This is the one that concerns me. Babies are not bandaids for the past, and having another child seems like a part of a larger effort on her part to atone for an abortion she never wanted to have, and for which she's been punishing herself ever since. Her whole drastic change to stay-at-home, homeschooling mom seems more to me like overcompensation for a regretted mistake than anything else. I say that having never met either of you, nor hearing her side, so I could be WAY off there. But that's the gut feeling I'm getting.
She sounds like a woman who takes her faith seriously. That's good -- it will help her get over the past and give her strength for the future. Let me ask you a question, and I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here. Has she confessed the abortion to a priest? I only ask because for either of you to be truly happy, that pain has to be healed, and it doesn't sound like it is. Repentance through faith can help her heal. As long as it remains 'swept under the rug', it will continue to fester and rob both of you of the happiness you could have.
As far as being unable to accept love because of your past, I've had a taste of that myself. My experience was different than yours, and not nearly as traumatic, but many of our scars are the same. Even now, sometimes my wife will look at me with this overwhelming look of unconditional love, and I can't handle it. I know myself now well enough to know I don't deserve it, and part of me still feels like that unloveable 12-year-old who was rejected by his mother. The difference now is that I've learned to humbly accept it, and let myself be overwhelmed with gratitude for it. Just another way faith can help you in your marriage.
Another area of concern that wasn't brought up, but will be if you choose to go through pre-marital counseling, is leadership in the home. If she takes her faith seriously, you're going to need to lead her and the rest of the family in that arena. She's already displayed a temptation to use "spiritual leadings" as a manipulative tool. Someone needs to hold her accountable, and the best person for that job is you, her husband. If she's homeschooling, she's likely teaching your kids things, too, and they're going to have questions. You and she need to be on the same page so your kids don't get conflicting messages. That much is true even if you don't make it as husband and wife -- you're still Mom and Dad.
muff_spelunker
07-14-04, 10:21 AM
relationships come and go. People and their wants change....True, it may hurt him in the short term, but a life with someone that doesn't want to be with you is no life at all.
Amen, brother.
Sadic, before I respond any more, please tell me if I step over the line or if I should just shut up. :)
FWIW, here's my take on her list.
- I have to commit to her unconditionally.
A good idea and a sound marital principle, but it has to go both ways.
- I have to marry her in the Catholic church.
This is a good idea, too. You both consider yourselves Catholic, and if you're going to build a new life together from the ashes, getting on the same page spiritually with regard to marriage is critical, IMO. The pre-marital counseling would do you both good, even if it's not required for a second ceremony. I fought pre-marital tooth and nail, but from this side looking back I thank God we had it. It clears up a lot of misconceptions about marriage and fills in a lot of blanks. It gives you parameters to work from, and that's important.
- I have to take her on a honeymoon.
This isn't a bad idea, either. It seems like this could be part of a 'starting over' process, and that's a good thing. Yeah, it's probably a little about making up for the past, but I don't think it's mostly about that. At least, I don't think it has to be.
- I have to get a vasectomy reversal.
This is the one that concerns me. Babies are not bandaids for the past, and having another child seems like a part of a larger effort on her part to atone for an abortion she never wanted to have, and for which she's been punishing herself ever since. Her whole drastic change to stay-at-home, homeschooling mom seems more to me like overcompensation for a regretted mistake than anything else. I say that having never met either of you, nor hearing her side, so I could be WAY off there. But that's the gut feeling I'm getting.
She sounds like a woman who takes her faith seriously. That's good -- it will help her get over the past and give her strength for the future. Let me ask you a question, and I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here. Has she confessed the abortion to a priest? I only ask because for either of you to be truly happy, that pain has to be healed, and it doesn't sound like it is. Repentance through faith can help her heal. As long as it remains 'swept under the rug', it will continue to fester and rob both of you of the happiness you could have.
As far as being unable to accept love because of your past, I've had a taste of that myself. My experience was different than yours, and not nearly as traumatic, but many of our scars are the same. Even now, sometimes my wife will look at me with this overwhelming look of unconditional love, and I can't handle it. I know myself now well enough to know I don't deserve it, and part of me still feels like that unloveable 12-year-old who was rejected by his mother. The difference now is that I've learned to humbly accept it, and let myself be overwhelmed with gratitude for it. Just another way faith can help you in your marriage.
Another area of concern that wasn't brought up, but will be if you choose to go through pre-marital counseling, is leadership in the home. If she takes her faith seriously, you're going to need to lead her and the rest of the family in that arena. She's already displayed a temptation to use "spiritual leadings" as a manipulative tool. Someone needs to hold her accountable, and the best person for that job is you, her husband. If she's homeschooling, she's likely teaching your kids things, too, and they're going to have questions. You and she need to be on the same page so your kids don't get conflicting messages. That much is true even if you don't make it as husband and wife -- you're still Mom and Dad.
In this thread, there is no line to be stepped over. I don't care if spud calls me and my wife baby killers or if anyone thinks I'm the devil himself or just dumb. You're always kind and reasonable, hasbeens, and one of the few people I know of who manages to hold a strong faith without being judgemental towards those who think differently, which I guess is sort of a sad statement about religion and those who seem to be attracted to it. So you're especially welcome to comment and I value your opinion.
I agree with most of your assessments of these requirements.
- Of course I have to commit to her fully if I am to stay with her. The whole reason I told her about everything I've done is because I want a more authentic existence and for her to know me better regardless of how we end up. As of today, I'm not sure I'm ready to do this, though.
- I agree that there is value in the symbolism of starting over in the church, and if I HAD to pick a church to belong to right now, I'd likely go with the Catholic church, but I'm not committed to Catholicism yet and not sure whether I will or won't be in the future.
- Honeymoon? I'd love to. It would also hold some strong symbolism, as I've always felt I owed her that, as our original circumstances never permitted it.
- The vasectomy reversal is screwed up for all of the reasons you stated and more.
After talking to her last night, I think some or all of these "requirements" may well be what she wants and needs, but she's already willing to compromise or abandon them just to have me with her, and I think that's screwed up and indicative of her need to come to a stronger understanding of herself (just as I must do) before we can even consider being together for the long term. I know I could go down this list one by one and say, "No. No. No. No. But let's get back together anyway," and she would say, "OK". That's unfathomable to me, and I have a hard time respecting her for allowing me to do that to her, and I'm not together enough to police myself in such a way, let alone to interpret the sincerity of and enforce her perceived needs. The night before we left, while up all night talking and crying about how screwed up things are, we ended up having sex, and it wasn't like I begged her or forced myself on her in any way. All I did was touch her a little and look at her, and she was genuinely into it. A byproduct of my personality and/or dysfunction is and always has been that I need a little discipline. That's why the Air Force was such an excellent place for me to get myself together personally and professionally. I thrive on that. Give me anarchy or all out oppression, and I'll end up killing myself and/or my counterpart. If someone is not willing to look me in the eyes when I cross a given line and say, "No!" with some loving firmness, I won't respect them, and so far, she can't do that. It's a bit juvenile, I guess, but so far, being aware of it hasn't fixed it, and I don't know what, if anything will.
As far as leadership in the home, spiritual and otherwise, I have a slightly different perspective on this, and I think it's partly cultural. Where I come from, the woman is the true leader in the household, and the man owns the remote control. The wife interprets the religion and makes everyone go to church, and the man is sort of optional in that arena. The man is the strong hand that the woman uses to keep the kids in line, but mostly only as a threat. It's sort of like lions. I obviously don't buy into this system for myself, but I think it's at least as good as what I perceive to be the Protestant perspective of the man setting direction, which I feel results in a microcosm of all that's wrong with world politics. Too much fear, oppression, and hostility, and not enough pure love and mercy. It's kind of in line with the devaluation of Mary in the Protestant faiths I've seen. I tend to think women need to be intimately involved in the process and would guess that without a truly collaborative approach, families tend to get as screwed up as the world in general.
Anyway, I guess I digressed there. As of yesterday, I've begun to turn this decision over to God and have started praying. If she's going to force my hand by giving me a week or two, then beginning the process of moving her and the kids to PA, I can't let that influence my desire to really hear God on this issue, and will have to have enough faith to know that things will work out the way they're supposed to.
Here's something that concerns me about the people who have had similar issues as mine, but resolved to make it work. None of them seem to have ever worked their way into being truly in love with their spouse. They've "matured". They have achieved a "deepened love and appreciation". They've "worked it out". They've "saved it". What it seems to have amounted to is that they've successfully killed that voice in their heart that tells them they should be with someone who they're truly in love with. They've waited it out. They've starved it to death. They've given up for fear of the risks involved in undertaking the search for something that speaks to them on a deeper level. That's not to say that they're miserable now, but none of them sound all that happy about their spouse either. They just channel their energy and emotions into their kids and other pursuits in their life. Am I reading this wrong? I think I could be apathetically happy in a number of situations if that's all one calls "happiness". Growing up is all well and good for getting shit done and surviving, but that's why people like to be around children so much. They've got real joy about them. Just an observation, and please correct me if I'm wrong.
vpkozel
07-14-04, 02:26 PM
In this thread, there is no line to be stepped over. or if anyone thinks I'm the devil himself or just dumb.
I can't speak for everyone, but I do not limit my thinking you are dumb to just this thread.
Here's something that concerns me about the people who have had similar issues as mine, but resolved to make it work....... Just an observation, and please correct me if I'm wrong.
I do not have the life experience to answer that question Sadic.
But this gives me the chance to go back to what I was asking you yesterday about everything that's happened since the abortion.
It would seem to me, that you have already been doing the things you fear (what I edited out of the post) for a number of years now. At least now you have a chance to get past the guilt and either make a clean break or not let the resentment build up for another number of years.
I gotta believe that's a good thing.
Anyway, I guess I digressed there. As of yesterday, I've begun to turn this decision over to God and have started praying. If she's going to force my hand by giving me a week or two, then beginning the process of moving her and the kids to PA, I can't let that influence my desire to really hear God on this issue, and will have to have enough faith to know that things will work out the way they're supposed to.
this works, by the way. honestly. it's not a "giving up" of control in the decision as much as it is an opening of the eyes, heart, arms and soul and making a decision from that place.
hasbeen99
07-14-04, 03:59 PM
You're always kind and reasonable, hasbeens, and one of the few people I know of who manages to hold a strong faith without being judgemental towards those who think differently... So you're especially welcome to comment and I value your opinion.
Thank you for the respect. :)
As far as leadership in the home, spiritual and otherwise, I have a slightly different perspective on this, and I think it's partly cultural. Where I come from, the woman is the true leader in the household, and the man owns the remote control. The wife interprets the religion and makes everyone go to church, and the man is sort of optional in that arena. The man is the strong hand that the woman uses to keep the kids in line, but mostly only as a threat. It's sort of like lions. I obviously don't buy into this system for myself...
Whether you buy into it or not, I'm seeing it happen in your situation. The only problem is, your wife isn't the strong willed, decisive person it takes to fill that role, so it's not working. It seems to me that you both are waiting for the other to take the lead, and neither of you really wants to. She seems willing to concede to follow you in whatever direction you want to take the family. Meanwhile, you're waiting for her to make all the everyday decisions and make policy, leaving you as the enforcer. I hope you don't mind me saying so, but that sounds to me like a part-time job and both Dad and husband are full-time gigs, if you're looking to experience the best for you and your family. If not, the bare minimums will work, but don't be surprised when it turns out to be less than ideal.
I tend to think women need to be intimately involved in the process and would guess that without a truly collaborative approach, families tend to get as screwed up as the world in general.
I agree completely. I like to think that's the kind of relationship my wife and I have. She's as smart as I am and at least as mature spiritually, so I'd be stupid not to seek her input on the decisions we have to make.
I'd like to make one more observation, and I hope it doesn't offend you. I'm noticing a lot of indecision and apprehension in this thread...
"Not sure if I'm ready..."
"Not sure if I will or won't..."
"If I had to, I'd probably..."
...and it's surrounding some serious issues. I'm not sure how to word this, but is this normal for you, or are you having an abnormally tough time making decisions in these specific areas?
hasbeen99
07-14-04, 04:06 PM
Here's something that concerns me about the people who have had similar issues as mine, but resolved to make it work. None of them seem to have ever worked their way into being truly in love with their spouse. They've "matured". They have achieved a "deepened love and appreciation". They've "worked it out". They've "saved it". What it seems to have amounted to is that they've successfully killed that voice in their heart that tells them they should be with someone who they're truly in love with. They've waited it out. They've starved it to death. They've given up for fear of the risks involved in undertaking the search for something that speaks to them on a deeper level. That's not to say that they're miserable now, but none of them sound all that happy about their spouse either. They just channel their energy and emotions into their kids and other pursuits in their life. Am I reading this wrong?
I think for some people, you're right on the money. And I think most of those people usually end up getting divorced 5 years after the last kid moves out and/or finishes college. There's just nothing left to hold them together anymore.
But I think a lot of people who have gone through this... redefining of their relationship I guess you'd call it... haven't abandoned the idea of "true love", they've changed the definition of what they thought it was. Maybe that's settling. Maybe that's seeing something clearly for the first time after a long period of disillusionment. Some people have to be smacked in the head before they realize the thing they were looking for all along was standing in front of them the whole time.
Thank you for the respect. :)
Whether you buy into it or not, I'm seeing it happen in your situation. The only problem is, your wife isn't the strong willed, decisive person it takes to fill that role, so it's not working. It seems to me that you both are waiting for the other to take the lead, and neither of you really wants to. She seems willing to concede to follow you in whatever direction you want to take the family. Meanwhile, you're waiting for her to make all the everyday decisions and make policy, leaving you as the enforcer. I hope you don't mind me saying so, but that sounds to me like a part-time job and both Dad and husband are full-time gigs, if you're looking to experience the best for you and your family. If not, the bare minimums will work, but don't be surprised when it turns out to be less than ideal.
I agree completely. I like to think that's the kind of relationship my wife and I have. She's as smart as I am and at least as mature spiritually, so I'd be stupid not to seek her input on the decisions we have to make.
I'd like to make one more observation, and I hope it doesn't offend you. I'm noticing a lot of indecision and apprehension in this thread...
"Not sure if I'm ready..."
"Not sure if I will or won't..."
"If I had to, I'd probably..."
...and it's surrounding some serious issues. I'm not sure how to word this, but is this normal for you, or are you having an abnormally tough time making decisions in these specific areas?
I believe that my wife IS the strong-willed, decisive person needed to lead the family, and she's done so. She's made tough decisions for our family and we've been successful as a unit. I think I've been a pretty good soldier so far. I've been a very involved father. I take the time to talk, reason, discipline, and play with my kids. I've defended her and her decisions when others have questioned them (and many people close to us have in negative and sometimes offensive ways) to the point where I've had to alienate some of my own family members, I've embraced the financial sacrifices of a single income lifestyle, made and provided more money than either of us ever expected I could, and foregone many years of having the type and volume of adult companionship I originally sought and thought I would have. It's just never fallen in line with my goals or preferences, and maybe I'm wondering when I've sucked it up and been emotionally supportive enough to make sure she's able to keep doing what she's doing and be able to move on towards what I want out of life. I believe I stated this question before: If someone saved your life, then asked that you serve them for the rest of yours in return, is it your obligation to do so? It could have gone the other way, where I made all of the decisions she's made all of these years. Then she could have been the one who was ultimately ready for something different, but I don't see how it would be any better overall. You can talk about compromise, but when a person has a conviction, a compromise is a loss, and might as well be the polar opposite of what they think is right.
You're right in perceiving me as indecisive. I've subverted my own identity for a long time, so I'm not sure what one would expect me to be. I'm indecisive about my marriage because many people believe that it's better to be unhappy and stay a nuclear family than it is to split up. If I didn't wonder if this was the case, I 'd have split already, even if only for a long enough period of time to reclaim myself a bit and come back a stronger person more ready for a commitment.
I'm indecisive about my religion, though not my love for God or belief in Jesus. I think one would have to be pretty dumb not to be. There's a ton of versions of Christianity out there that one can prescribe to, some separated by ridiculous little subtleties that don't matter a bit to God, and some by some pretty pivotal, but virtually unprovable points. Ultimately, most people go with the one their family did or the church where they feel most comfortable with the community and preacher. I guess that makes them "decisive", but forgive me if I'm not that impressed.
Every time I've been decisive about anything within the relationship, I've been shot down in the name of God. Sure, I could have argued even more than I did, but one of us was going to get shot down, and I rathered it be me anyway, especially since she was the one ponying up to do the work of watching and teaching the kids.
If the right answer is to give up the desire for the main thing I've always wanted out of life, I am physically capable of continuing to do it, but I'd like to know for sure that that's what God wants before I make that decision again.
Village Idiot
07-14-04, 05:14 PM
Here's something that concerns me about the people who have had similar issues as mine, but resolved to make it work. None of them seem to have ever worked their way into being truly in love with their spouse. They've "matured". They have achieved a "deepened love and appreciation". They've "worked it out". They've "saved it". What it seems to have amounted to is that they've successfully killed that voice in their heart that tells them they should be with someone who they're truly in love with. They've waited it out. They've starved it to death. They've given up for fear of the risks involved in undertaking the search for something that speaks to them on a deeper level. That's not to say that they're miserable now, but none of them sound all that happy about their spouse either. They just channel their energy and emotions into their kids and other pursuits in their life. Am I reading this wrong? I think I could be apathetically happy in a number of situations if that's all one calls "happiness". Growing up is all well and good for getting shit done and surviving, but that's why people like to be around children so much. They've got real joy about them. Just an observation, and please correct me if I'm wrong.I think thats its normal to have doubts about ones life choices, who has'nt at one time or another? But to me, thats not enough reason to call it quits. Even if I think that there may be someone else out there.......somewhere....who is more of a match for me. Someone who will put to rest all doubt about me finding a soul mate. Someone who is perfect for me in every way. That is always a possibility. I know people (men and women) that have chased this illusion and they're still doing it. They've decided that their wife and family can be discarded for a more "suitable" or fulfilling life. They live it up for a while but it does'nt last. Its fools gold.
I think thats its normal to have doubts about their life choices, who has'nt at one time or another? But to me, thats not enough reason to call it quits. Even if I think that there may be someone else out there.......somewhere....who is more of a match for me. Someone who will put to rest all doubt about me finding a soul mate. Someone who is perfect for me in every way. That is always a possibility. I know people (men and women) that have chased this illusion and they're still doing it. They've decided that their wife and family can be discarded for a more "suitable" or fulfilling life. They live it up for a while but it does'nt last. Its fools gold.
So what are the choices? Air in one hand, and a bag of shit in the other? Seriously, though, I'm not proposing some ethereal soulmate crap here. I wouldn't mind someone who has a general set of goals and preferences in line with my own, though.
So what are the choices? Air in one hand, and a bag of shit in the other? Seriously, though, I'm not proposing some ethereal soulmate crap here. I wouldn't mind someone who has a general set of goals and preferences in line with my own, though.
Are you sure your wife couldn't change her goals enough to be more in line with yours? Have you told her all of what you have told us? What if she read this thread, would she learn anything new?
Are you sure your wife couldn't change her goals enough to be more in line with yours? Have you told her all of what you have told us? What if she read this thread, would she learn anything new?
I told her everything. You read her requirements, so you tell me. I'm supposed to choose her religion and that constitutes compromise? Granted, she needs some time to let this all settle on her and feel it all, and maybe things will be different then. But I pretty much know who she is and what she wants, and I don't want to change her. I really do love her the way she is. She's a great person. I don't feel like I'm so great when I'm around her, though, and I'd like that opportunity. I told her I'd like some time apart to sort it out and reclaim myself (while still maintaining all of my parental responsibilities) a little without the fear of her flying the coop, but she doesn't want that and has so far said if I did than she wouldn't go back with me (even though I know she would). That and prayer is about all I can think of short of a permanant split right now. We'll see what happens.
vpkozel
07-14-04, 05:58 PM
I'm supposed to choose her religion and that constitutes compromise?
That one is easy - Episcopalianism. You still get to drink like a fish; stand, kneel, stand, sit, kneel, repeat; and have pretty much the Hymnal, Prayer Book, and Bible as the Catholics.
hasbeen99
07-14-04, 06:05 PM
I apologize for the part-time father comment. That was unintentional, but out of line nonetheless.
I believe that my wife IS the strong-willed, decisive person needed to lead the family, and she's done so. She's made tough decisions for our family and we've been successful as a unit.
As long as you back her up, right? Here's what I mean:
...I've defended her and her decisions when others have questioned them ...I've embraced the financial sacrifices of a single income lifestyle, ...and foregone many years of having the type and volume of adult companionship I originally sought and thought I would have.
Contrast that with what you said earlier about her list. You said you could say, "No, no, no, and no," and she'd still say "Okay," and roll over completely.
It's just never fallen in line with my goals or preferences, and maybe I'm wondering when I've sucked it up and been emotionally supportive enough to make sure she's able to keep doing what she's doing and be able to move on towards what I want out of life.
Here in lies the problem. I think all husbands -- maybe all spouses -- go through this thought process at some point. When you devote so much of yourself to serving the other, I think there are times when we all have to take a hard look in the mirror and ask ourselves if what we're sacrificing is worth the reward. That's something only the reflection can answer. And if it's not, is it worth the penalty to get out? That's something you can't know the answer to until it's too late.
I believe I stated this question before: If someone saved your life, then asked that you serve them for the rest of yours in return, is it your obligation to do so?
IMO, no.
It could have gone the other way, where I made all of the decisions she's made all of these years. Then she could have been the one who was ultimately ready for something different, but I don't see how it would be any better overall. You can talk about compromise, but when a person has a conviction, a compromise is a loss, and might as well be the polar opposite of what they think is right.
Good point. And as long as one of you has convictions and the other one doesn't, the one who doesn't will probably feel manipulated most of the time.
I'm indecisive about my marriage because many people believe that it's better to be unhappy and stay a nuclear family than it is to split up.
Not to be Clinton-esque, but it depends on how one defines "better".
I'm indecisive about my religion, though not my love for God or belief in Jesus.
IMO, that's not a bad thing necessarily. But the hard part is that it doesn't give you a free pass to avoid religious issues in the family as they come up. Even in a equal collaboration between husband and wife, the husband has a significant role to play there. Even more so when children enter the picture.
There's a ton of versions of Christianity out there that one can prescribe to, some separated by ridiculous little subtleties that don't matter a bit to God, and some by some pretty pivotal, but virtually unprovable points.
Very well put, indeed. :applause:
Ultimately, most people go with the one their family did or the church where they feel most comfortable with the community and preacher. I guess that makes them "decisive", but forgive me if I'm not that impressed.
That's not really where I was going with that. You're right of course, but that's not what I meant about being decisive. I believe people need to make up their own minds about what they believe, and each is responsible for his or her own choice. Following the parents' lead is a choice a lot of people make for whatever reason. And I agree that taking the path of least resistance because it is so, is less than impressive. But really, all that's irrelevant. What most people do or don't do has no bearing on you making your own informed decision about what you believe. Once you make that choice, all you have to do is figure out how to apply it to your life and do that, whatever that is. There is an investigative process that goes with it, and the sooner you complete that, the easier the choices become in that arena.
Every time I've been decisive about anything within the relationship, I've been shot down in the name of God. Sure, I could have argued even more than I did, but one of us was going to get shot down, and I rathered it be me anyway, especially since she was the one ponying up to do the work of watching and teaching the kids.
You've been manipulated by your own admission in one of your earlier posts. Automatically going into turtle mode every time someone else takes a shot at you "in the name of God" is no solution. Your faith is just as important as the other person's. That's why Proverbs calls it "iron sharpening iron". When that happens, sparks fly.
If the right answer is to give up the desire for the main thing I've always wanted out of life, I am physically capable of continuing to do it, but I'd like to know for sure that that's what God wants before I make that decision again.
I don't know if it's a matter of giving up what you've always wanted as much as it is figuring out for sure what you really want.
That one is easy - Episcopalianism. You still get to drink like a fish; stand, kneel, stand, sit, kneel, repeat; and have pretty much the Hymnal, Prayer Book, and Bible as the Catholics.
You know from threads in R&S that I've thought about that. She did too...for a day or two. She's a Catholic, says she.
hasbeen99
07-14-04, 06:58 PM
She's a Catholic, says she.
Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, some (if not all) Catholics don't take too kindly to people jumping ship. :nono:
I didn't take your part time father comment badly. There's a general tone of frustration in my last post that you may have taken to mean I was offended. I only listed my fatherly credentials as a way of indicating that I've been trying hard all of these years, and am generally invested in them, and she believes, or at least tells me, that I've been exceptional.
As far as the contrast between my wife's strong will with regard to most things in her life and her lack of strong will with me, as far as I can tell, her strong will only applies to familial concerns such as parenting and religion, and of course superficial things such as houses, decorating, and cooking. She's been completely hands off in a good way about money and my career and things like that. This is a tremendous credit to her, because I know many men who's wives don't know shit about their jobs but feel completely entitled to try to instruct them as to how best to handle their careers. That's been the general division of labor as far as decision making, and on the surface, it seems fair and sensible. I make and handle the money, she makes and handles the babies and house. The thing is, my making and handling of the money has a much less deep affect on her than her making and handling of the babies and house does on me. I'm going to be out of the house for X number of hours working every day regardless. As long as the money keeps coming in, it doesn't matter if I'm maintaining databases or digging ditches. I've never said no to her about anything she wanted because I've never had to, because she's very reasonable and our financial wants and preferences are pretty much in line with each other. The house and baby situation has a deep affect on me and our relationship, though, and she's "had to" say no to me on those things constantly.
But as far as us being together, she'd sell her own mother to have me stay with her, and it's always been like that, so this is the one area where she has no will, and the main area where I need her to. I don't know if she's just afraid to be alone or that in love with me (probably some combination), but she'll let me get away with anything, and that just adds to our existing problems of the current status of our existance and a feeling that we're not complementary personality match. So I don't think that's a sign of a general lack of will on her part. I've just tricked her into being in love with me by being nice and being a sensitive lover. She's willful.
You say that, no, one person having saved another's life does not entitle the other person to the remainder of theirs. To me, that's sort of what my marriage feels like, and lots of people out there are saying, yes, you owe that to her and the kids. I'm open to the possibility that this may be true and the only viable solution, but I do want to hear it from God or someone who sounds like they're actually in love, rather than coming to an agreement that their true desires aren't that important. If all that matters is "having" a family and keeping it together, I can go get me a mail order bride that cleans the house and keeps her mouth shut and adopt a couple more kids, make all the rules, and do whatever I want, right?
Anyway, the rest of your post didn't argue much with me, and I was kind of hoping for a little more resistance.
(I realize I'm sounding frustrated, sarcastic, and a bit prickly here, but I'm pretending to be on the psych's couch and "going with my emotions")
I just read my last post and something occurred to me about it that I have to correct. I said that with regard to me, she has no will, but now that I read and think about it, she's pretty much "willed" us together from the beginning (and I, of course, have been a sucker for it). Her rolling over at anything I say or do in an effort to keep us together is her way of willing us together. Apparently, all I had to do any time she made a decision about how to run the family that I didn't agree with in the name of God was to threaten to leave her. It's not how I think a relationship should operate, but still, if only I had known...
hasbeen99
07-14-04, 07:41 PM
...now that I read and think about it, she's pretty much "willed" us together from the beginning (and I, of course, have been a sucker for it). Her rolling over at anything I say or do in an effort to keep us together is her way of willing us together.
I wouldn't disagree with that.
Apparently, all I had to do any time she made a decision about how to run the family that I didn't agree with in the name of God was to threaten to leave her. It's not how I think a relationship should operate, but still, if only I had known...
You're probably right. Like you said, though, it's not how a relationship should work. Using drastic measures like that ("the will of God" and "I'll leave you if...") tends to leave scars. It shouldn't take that much force to come to a mutual decision.
Village Idiot
07-14-04, 07:43 PM
So what are the choices? Air in one hand, and a bag of shit in the other? Seriously, though, I'm not proposing some ethereal soulmate crap here. I wouldn't mind someone who has a general set of goals and preferences in line with my own, though.Sorry, I guess I was trying read between the lines or something. I would really hate to see you guys split up is what I'm getting at, in a round about way. Do you think that if you told her that you were willing to do your best to meet her demands that would be enough? I mean, she would at least know that you care enough to try for her. She may need to see that. The reverse vasectomy thing is a tough call though. Maybe if she saw your willingness to give in then she would give in some. Could that be at all possible?
hasbeen99
07-14-04, 07:53 PM
The thing is, my making and handling of the money has a much less deep affect on her than her making and handling of the babies and house does on me. I'm going to be out of the house for X number of hours working every day regardless. As long as the money keeps coming in, it doesn't matter if I'm maintaining databases or digging ditches. I've never said no to her about anything she wanted because I've never had to, because she's very reasonable and our financial wants and preferences are pretty much in line with each other. The house and baby situation has a deep affect on me and our relationship, though, and she's "had to" say no to me on those things constantly.
This may sound like a weird question, but how important is your happiness to her? It dawned on me just now that if her top priority and joy in life is to be a stay-at-home mom, as long as she has the means she may not care about much else. If that is the case, it would make sense for her to make concessions wherever and whenever that priority is threatened.
That's an awfully dark look at the situation, though. :worried:
hasbeen99
07-14-04, 07:56 PM
I didn't take your part time father comment badly. There's a general tone of frustration in my last post that you may have taken to mean I was offended. I only listed my fatherly credentials as a way of indicating that I've been trying hard all of these years, and am generally invested in them, and she believes, or at least tells me, that I've been exceptional.
Thanks for the grace. :) I'm really glad to hear you're actively involved in your kids' lives and want to be. More dads need to be in this country.
hasbeen99
07-14-04, 08:00 PM
But as far as us being together, she'd sell her own mother to have me stay with her, and it's always been like that, so this is the one area where she has no will, and the main area where I need her to. I don't know if she's just afraid to be alone or that in love with me (probably some combination), but she'll let me get away with anything, and that just adds to our existing problems of the current status of our existance and a feeling that we're not complementary personality match. So I don't think that's a sign of a general lack of will on her part. I've just tricked her into being in love with me by being nice and being a sensitive lover. She's willful.
In your talks, have you asked her what she wants in your marriage relationship? I'm not talking about your life, kids, or career. I'm talking about what she wants and expects out of the relationship itself -- the kinds of things you're weighing for yourself.
hasbeen99
07-14-04, 08:10 PM
You say that, no, one person having saved another's life does not entitle the other person to the remainder of theirs. To me, that's sort of what my marriage feels like, and lots of people out there are saying, yes, you owe that to her and the kids.
Apples and oranges. Generally speaking, someone doesn't save your life out of an agreement for involuntary servitude. Marriage is a free-will choice from the beginning. When the perception changes from a choice to an obligation, both sides begin to resent it.
I'm open to the possibility that this may be true and the only viable solution, but I do want to hear it from God or someone who sounds like they're actually in love, rather than coming to an agreement that their true desires aren't that important. If all that matters is "having" a family and keeping it together, I can go get me a mail order bride that cleans the house and keeps her mouth shut and adopt a couple more kids, make all the rules, and do whatever I want, right?
Pretty much. From a spiritual perspective, I don't think it's about "gotta have a family and keep it together" as it is about "gotta keep the vows you took on your wedding day". In a Christian wedding, those vows are as much to God as they are to each other, and I, for one, take that very seriously.
Let me clarify something -- I think (and this is my opinion) that vows make fulfilling a man's or woman's role as spouse (however it's defined) an obligation. However, whether or not to fulfill that obligation is always a choice, and that choice has to be continually made. A person's attitude toward that choice is what will fill a marriage up with happiness or kill it altogether.
Blueblood32
07-14-04, 08:22 PM
WOW! This thread really strikes home with me. Sadic, I went through the exact same thing with my ex-wife a little more than two years ago. I let all my dirty laundry out and she got a big ole whiff. For me, it was very cathartic. For her, it was disaster. We ended up divorced but I think it was for the best. Still, complete bliss has eluded me and I don't know that it really exists. Man, I went on a porno-style fuck benge and it made no difference. Unfortunately, in my conquest of snatch, I knocked a girl up so I'm a dad now. Be very careful about how you end this marriage...To me, you've made your decision and you should follow through. BUT DO NOT PISS OFF MOM! She will make you pay!
McFly41
07-15-04, 07:33 AM
hof.
It's already there...just not physically. This is what TBR is all about to me, a pot pouri of thoughts and ideas on the most personal and public issues.
I haven't gotten much done at work the last couple hours cuz I have been glued to this thread!!!
Sadic, I can truely sympathize with your situation. Coming clean was a good thing to do...nothing better than to put all your chips on the table and letting it ride.
It's easy for me to comment on what you have done...difficult to form any credible suggestion without feeling like I am being judgemental of a situation I really only know a smidge about. As always, here is my advice...follow it it's your own damn fault :xyzthumbs
First off, ultimatums SUCK! There is no place for this in an adult relationship, IMO. I would view these as the things that she wants out of the relationship and weigh that against what you are willing to do. The Vasectomy reversal sounds like an all round bad idea. You can not replace the child you chose to abort. You have (X) children, and that feeling is still there...communication is the only remedy.
Actually, I am not going to go to much more indepth cuz I will be here awhile if I do. I'll just say this...You and the wife need to sit down and discuss the details of how things are going to go down. Clearly identify what each WANTS and what each of you NEEDS from one another and the relationship. The wants are expendible, the NEEDS are the key to figuring this thing out.
Too often people fool themselves into thinking a want is a need.
A good friend of mine had his parents go through this about a year ago. He moved out shortly after the youngest graduated and moved out. He had been having an affair and moved in with a guy just a few years older than his oldest son and was seeing women half his age. All the while, she was allowing him this space. Suddenly, he realized that what he had was as good as it gets and they are back together and happier than ever.
My wife and I have had some issues, nothing like this, but issues none the less. Seeing my friends parents go through all that made me look at things differently in the last year, for sure.
Either direction you take, you have to make sure your happy. Cuz if your not happy, then those around you will not be either.
lj4three
07-15-04, 09:08 PM
While I am gay, I don't foresee me ever actually wanting to engage in homosexual activity. But if I did, you'd be high on my list. Obviously, personality counts for a lot with me.
:rofl: fucking hilarious.
lj4three
07-15-04, 09:36 PM
wow, this thread surprised me. Sadic- i'm probably the last guy who you should listen too, but whatever, here's a philosophy that i really am a firm believer of and i think its worth posting here because i think its of merit as to how your life has progressed, per what you have posted here.
In the production of the effect and the cause, nature is said to be the cause. In the experience of pleasure and pain, the soul is said to be the cause.
In other words, treat your soul
Captain Morgan
07-15-04, 09:40 PM
WOW! This thread really strikes home with me. Sadic, I went through the exact same thing with my ex-wife a little more than two years ago. I let all my dirty laundry out and she got a big ole whiff. For me, it was very cathartic. For her, it was disaster. We ended up divorced but I think it was for the best. Still, complete bliss has eluded me and I don't know that it really exists. Man, I went on a porno-style fuck benge and it made no difference. Unfortunately, in my conquest of snatch, I knocked a girl up so I'm a dad now. Be very careful about how you end this marriage...To me, you've made your decision and you should follow through. BUT DO NOT PISS OFF MOM! She will make you pay!
Damn that sounds familiar.
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