Long overdue:

[Miss tery]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/index.html

[BushMaster]

Ever try reading "News of the Day"?

[chipshot]

With all the shit kids are exposed to these days those thin skinned whining motherfuckers gotta waste all that time and effort over the word "God". George Orwell's concept of newspeak doesn't seem so strange anymore.

[magnus]

In other news, the Superior court ruled itself unconstitutional and disbanded, claiming to have "other plans". Some members of Congress have already begun to suggest it was due to envy of the Supreme Court.

[Miss tery]

Originally posted by chipshot
over the word "God".

It is not the "word" that is the issue, it is the concept.

[meatpile]

I've got no beef with it, my beef is that most of the schools in this country are run by the government. If schools weren't an arm of the government, it wouldn't be an issue, unless you worked for the government.

So, Miss_Tery, did you fell oppressed before? Give me a fucking break.

That's what you get when you rely on the government for the most basic needs. They will turn you into fucking drones.

[BearBryant]

Originally posted by Miss_tery


It is not the "word" that is the issue, it is the concept.

move...

[chipshot]

I dont believe in the Tooth Fairy but the concept doesn't bother me.

[slydevl]

Its funny that atheists dont realize that their anger over the concept of God actually lends credence to his existence. There has to be some lingering doubt in their minds or there would be absolutely no need for concern. A true atheist wouldn't give a flying fuck about the mention of the word God because God to them would be about the same as the Tooth Fairy.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by meatpile
I've got no beef with it, my beef is that most of the schools in this country are run by the government. If schools weren't an arm of the government, it wouldn't be an issue, unless you worked for the government.

So, Miss_Tery, did you fell oppressed before? Give me a fucking break.

That's what you get when you rely on the government for the most basic needs. They will turn you into fucking drones.

I agree Meat. We do not and should not have a Federal Education System as it is not mandated by the Constitution. The fact that each state's education system is beholden to the Federal Govt. is a fucking joke.

[magnus]

In that same vein, I don't mind atheists that come to a conclusion based on something rational. I've seen my share, all of which have for some reason or another been in a church situation where they didn't like what was going on - a youth minister slept with a mother, the congregation was racist, or their own beliefs were being exploited as wrong (chick I knew who is bi got tired of hearing about homosexuality being evil, which it isn't), that type thing. Getting mad at God for some human's innate stupidity. That's not God's fault.

[kshead]

Originally posted by chipshot
I dont believe in the Tooth Fairy but the concept doesn't bother me.

If your kid were told by his teacher to recite a pledge to this country that included references to a "Tooth Fairy" in it would it bother you then?

[gutter]

True sly. A certain athiest friend of mine got upset when I told her she would be in my prayers. She said, "he doesn't love me, and I'm sure not crazy about him."

[SandMan]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson
In that same vein, I don't mind atheists that come to a conclusion based on something rational. I've seen my share, all of which have for some reason or another been in a church situation where they didn't like what was going on - a youth minister slept with a mother, the congregation was racist, or their own beliefs were being exploited as wrong (chick I knew who is bi got tired of hearing about homosexuality being evil, which it isn't), that type thing. Getting mad at God for some human's innate stupidity. That's not God's fault.

I kinda feel the same way... but a good friend from way back that is an Atheist actually lives a more "Christ Like" life than anyone I know. The only difference you notice is he does not thank God or pray to God. Its something I struggle with from time to time, but when it comes down to it, its all about faith.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by gutter
True sly. A certain athiest friend of mine got upset when I told her she would be in my prayers. She said, "he doesn't love me, and I'm sure not crazy about him."

That person is not an atheist then and obviously believes in God. Thus the phrase under God should not bother them. Her own personal relationship with God is actually irrelevant. This country was has its foundation in Christian principles. To deny that is to admit you have no knowledge of history.

[jasper]

Originally posted by gutter
A certain athiest friend of mine got upset when I told her she would be in my prayers. She said, "he doesn't love me, and I'm sure not crazy about him."

That sounds like more like an agnostic than an atheist to me. A true atheist wouldn't care if you prayed for them. A smile and "don't hurt yourself" would be my response.

Originally posted by kshead
If your kid were told by his teacher to recite a pledge to this country that included references to a "Tooth Fairy" in it would it bother you then?

My sentiments exactly.

[Patti]

Well I know there's a God because He is sure pissed off at me.

[Piper]

Originally posted by slydevl


That person is not an atheist then and obviously believes in God. Thus the phrase under God should not bother them. Her own personal relationship with God is actually irrelevant. This country was has its foundation in Christian principles. To deny that is to admit you have no knowledge of history.

Many of the founding fathers, including Adams, Washington, Hamilton, and Jefferson, were Diests. Diests believed in God as a creator, but rejected the idea of a holy trinity (including Christ as God on earth) and the existence of supernatural powers on earth. So technically, no, we weren’t founded on Christian principles, because the founders were not Christians.

http://home.naxs.com/userper/

[slydevl]

Originally posted by kshead


If your kid were told by his teacher to recite a pledge to this country that included references to a "Tooth Fairy" in it would it bother you then?

Why should it? A reference to something I have absolutely no belief in? Big deal. I might feel it a little ridiculous but infringing on my rights? How so?

[jasper]

Originally posted by slydevl
This country was has its foundation in Christian principles. To deny that is to admit you have no knowledge of history.

Thanks for clearing that up for me sly, I didn't realize that Christians had a patent on truth, justice, equality, and personal freedom.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Piper


Many of the founding fathers, including Adams, Washington, Hamilton, and Jefferson, were Diests. Diests believed in God as a creator, but rejected the idea of a holy trinity (including Christ as God on earth) and the existence of supernatural powers on earth. So technically, no, we weren’t founded on Christian principles, because the founders were not Christians.

http://home.naxs.com/userper/

You single out four of the numerous founding fathers as deists and then say the founding fathers werent Christian. You cannot reasonably make that argument. You can only claim some of the founding fathers weren't Christian nor can you claim most werent Christian. The first colonists came to America in order to flee from persecution from the ESTABLISHED Anglican church so that they could practice their non-Anglican CHRISTIAN religion freely. That is the basis for the first amendment.

[gutter]

PEOPLE WORSHIP MICHAEL JACKSON. NOW I HAVE A PROBLEM WIT DAT!

[slydevl]

Originally posted by jasper


Thanks for clearing that up for me sly, I didn't realize that Christians had a patent on truth, justice, equality, and personal freedom.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What an idiotic statement. To draw the conclusion that that was what I was impying demonstrates a flawed thought process.

[gutter]

AGREE. JUST SIMPLE COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT THE FIRST SETTLERS WERE MOSTLY CHRISTIAN. THAT'S NOT EVEN IN THE BIBLE.

[jasper]

No, I just think you have your "origin of principles" mixed up. It is flawed to say that the principles of the founding fathers were Christian. They sought equality and freedom to do whatever. Hell, they had just fled religious persecution - how can you say their principles were based on anything but personal freedom?

[Puttingood]

To start with---Miss_Tery is no more an atheist then I am a female inpersonater. She/he only says that stuff because its his/her way of getting attention. As was said before, a true atheist would not care.
The real atheist I know would have him/her for breakfast.
She/he is only repeating things that he/she heard at the Mini-Mart that he/she works at.

[gutter]

SO PUTT DO YOU THINK SHE IS FULL OF SHE/IT?

[kshead]

Originally posted by slydevl


Why should it? A reference to something I have absolutely no belief in? Big deal. I might feel it a little ridiculous but infringing on my rights? How so?

I'm not sure where you are headed here Sly. You seem to be implying that - because you don't think it's a problem that everyone else should just suck it up and do what they are told. Maybe I'm misreading, so I'll come back.

But my simple answer would be that I would put a foot up someone's ass for forcing my kid to do something I do not want my kid doing. That goes for religion - whatever. Making someone do something they don't want to do is way up on my "Go fuck yourself" list..... :) But if the courts want to do it for me - in the name of separation of church and government in this case - I can live with that. I'd also point out that it does not threaten my religious beliefs at all either.

[magnus]

Originally posted by slydevl


You single out four of the numerous founding fathers as deists and then say the founding fathers werent Christian.

Those were some fairly big ones, though. It's not like Burr, John Hancock, or William Floyd were pushing the movement on their own two hands. Certainly, a huge name left off is Franklin. But you add him and take away the part about deisty and you're able to put together a convincing argument about them being the major forces in founding this nation. That they believed in God, the same God you believe in, the same God that Muslims believe in, the same God that Jews believe in, that doesn't change anything. It only proves what they were doing.

[Piper]

>>You single out four of the numerous founding fathers as deists and then say the founding fathers werent Christian. You cannot reasonably make that argument. You can only claim some of the founding fathers weren't Christian nor can you claim most werent Christian.

Actually, I can. Most were Deists. I only pointed out the four that I did, because they were fairly powerful, being our first three presidents and the political leader of the Federalists and all.

But we can add Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine to the list. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of anyone of importance that wasn't a Diest.

Here's a telling passage from the "Deism in Virginia and Tennessee" website.

"By bluntly attacking organized religions and denying their claims of authority, Paine became a pariah. Franklin and Jefferson, more politic in their statements about belief, became fathers of this nation. One should beware, therefore, of Christians proclaiming that this country was founded on principles identical to their own beliefs. Paine, the darling of the revolutionaries in the colonies and in France, finds Christianity, like all other religion, a fraudulent means to gain power and wealth. Jefferson, advocate of freedom of religious belief, trusted in human reason to eliminate wrongheaded ideas. Franklin admired Jesus, even equating him with Socrates, as the origin of the best moral principles ever devised. They did not, however, advocate the doctrines of Christianity or any of its sects. "



>>The first colonists came to America in order to flee from persecution from the ESTABLISHED Anglican church so that they could practice their non-Anglican CHRISTIAN religion freely. That is the basis for the first amendment.

Horseshit. The folks in Jamestown wanted fame and fortune, not religous freedom. Now the Puritans, yeah, they fleed from persecution. But did they practice what they preached when they got here? Hell no. They percecuted anyone who didn't toe their intolerant line. Ever hear of the Salem witch trials, Sly?


No, it was our Diest founding fathers that we can thank for religous freedom, because they had vested intrest in the separation of church and state, due to thier own "minority" views.

[jasper]

From an atheist website, so the authenticity of these might be questionable, but they appear and I wonder how we can check to see if they are actual word-for-word quotes:

1) During almost 15 centuries has the legal establishment of religion been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride, and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution -- James Madison

2) The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the sun -- Thomas Paine

3) Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error -- Thomas Jefferson

4) Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law -- Thomas Paine

5) The government of the United States is in not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion -- Treaty of Tripoli, 1797

6) I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! -- John Adams

7) I disbelieve in all holy men and holy books -- Thomas Paine

8) In no instance have...the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people -- James Madison

9) The Christian god is cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust -- Thomas Jefferson

10) Revealed religion has no weight with me -- Benjamin Franklin

11) Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of reason rather than that of blindfolded fear -- Thomas Jefferson

12) Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and it seeks to pursue us into eternity -- Thomas Paine

13) All national institutions of churches-whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish-appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit -- Thomas Paine

14) Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals -- Thomas Paine

15) It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing -- Thomas Paine

16) The Commandments carry no internal evidence of divinity with them -- Thomas Paine

17) The Christian theory is little less than the idolatry of the ancient mythologies, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it yet remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud -- Thomas Paine

18) Jesus Christ wrote no account of himself, of his birth, parentage, or anything else. Not a line of what is called the New Testament is of his writing. The history of him is altogether the work of other people -- Thomas Paine

19) I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law rejecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and state -- Thomas Jefferson

20) When the church mythologists established their system, they collected all the writings they could find and managed them as they pleased. It is a matter altogether of uncertainty to us whether such of the writings as now appear under the name of the Old and New Testaments are in the same state in which those collectors say they found them, or whether they added, altered, abridged, or dressed them up -- Thomas Paine

21) The church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests -- John Adams

22) I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpation -- James Madison

23) The "divinity" of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity -- John Adams

24) I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstitions of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded in fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites, to support roguery and error all over the earth -- Thomas Jefferson

25) Democracy does not need the church, or the clergy -- James Madison

26) The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason -- Benjamin Franklin

27) Religion is a matter which belongs to the church, and not to the state -- George Washington

28) And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter -- Thomas Jefferson

29) It does me no injlury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg -- Thomas Jefferson

30) Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish witht eh same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects? -- James Madison

31) History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes -- Thomas Jefferson

32) From the bottom of my soul, I pity my fellow man. Fears and terrors appear to have produced a universal credulity. Fears of calamities in life and punishmenst after death, seem to have possessed the souls of men -- John Adams

33) One schoolmaster is of more use than a thousand priests -- Thomas Paine

34) To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead -- Thomas Paine

35) To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical -- Thomas Jefferson

36) It is in our lives, and not from our words our religion must be judged -- Thomas Jefferson

37) The question is whether the God of nature will govern the world by his own laws or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles -- John Adams

[mathmajors]

Let's keep in mind that 'under God' was not even part of the original Pledge; it was added in the late '50's.

[Piper]

Pick up any in depth autobiography about Jefferson or Franklin or Adams, they'll be in there. Washington was a Diest too, but ever the politician, he tended to keep his mouth shut.

Paine was more agnostic, and was more boastful, which led to his undoing politically. Common folk were Christian.


Here's another website about Diesm vs Chritiianity and Athiesm.
http://www.deism.com/deism_vs.htm

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Piper
>>You single out four of the numerous founding fathers as deists and then say the founding fathers werent Christian. You cannot reasonably make that argument. You can only claim some of the founding fathers weren't Christian nor can you claim most werent Christian.

Actually, I can. Most were Deists. I only pointed out the four that I did, because they were fairly powerful, being our first three presidents and the political leader of the Federalists and all.

But we can add Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine to the list. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of anyone of importance that wasn't a Diest.

Here's a telling passage from the "Deism in Virginia and Tennessee" website.

"By bluntly attacking organized religions and denying their claims of authority, Paine became a pariah. Franklin and Jefferson, more politic in their statements about belief, became fathers of this nation. One should beware, therefore, of Christians proclaiming that this country was founded on principles identical to their own beliefs. Paine, the darling of the revolutionaries in the colonies and in France, finds Christianity, like all other religion, a fraudulent means to gain power and wealth. Jefferson, advocate of freedom of religious belief, trusted in human reason to eliminate wrongheaded ideas. Franklin admired Jesus, even equating him with Socrates, as the origin of the best moral principles ever devised. They did not, however, advocate the doctrines of Christianity or any of its sects. "



>>The first colonists came to America in order to flee from persecution from the ESTABLISHED Anglican church so that they could practice their non-Anglican CHRISTIAN religion freely. That is the basis for the first amendment.

Horseshit. The folks in Jamestown wanted fame and fortune, not religous freedom. Now the Puritans, yeah, they fleed from persecution. But did they practice what they preached when they got here? Hell no. They percecuted anyone who didn't toe their intolerant line. Ever hear of the Salem witch trials, Sly?


No, it was our Diest founding fathers that we can thank for religous freedom, because they had vested intrest in the separation of church and state, due to thier own "minority" views.

The only admitted deists on your list were Jefferson and Paine. There is little evidence to say what any of the others were either way. Most were freemason's but that does not preclude them from being Christian nor mean that they were deists.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Piper
Franklin admired Jesus, even equating him with Socrates, as the origin of the best moral principles ever devised. They did not, however, advocate the doctrines of Christianity or any of its sects. "


This sentence contradicts itself. Franklin may not have believed Jesus was the son of God, but to base our laws upon Jesus's moral principles means our laws were based in Chrisitianity.

39 people signed the Constitution. 1 was an admitted deist. Thomas Paine was not a founding father.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by kshead


I'm not sure where you are headed here Sly. You seem to be implying that - because you don't think it's a problem that everyone else should just suck it up and do what they are told. Maybe I'm misreading, so I'll come back.

But my simple answer would be that I would put a foot up someone's ass for forcing my kid to do something I do not want my kid doing. That goes for religion - whatever. Making someone do something they don't want to do is way up on my "Go fuck yourself" list..... :) But if the courts want to do it for me - in the name of separation of church and government in this case - I can live with that. I'd also point out that it does not threaten my religious beliefs at all either.

But the government forces people to do things every day that they dont have the Constitutional right to do....don't hear you creating a big ruckus about that.

[slydevl]

Samuel Adams:

Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity. . . and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country. . . . In short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.

Letter to John Adams, 1790, who wrote back: "You and I agree."
Four Letters: Being an Interesting Correspondence Between Those Eminently Distinguished Characters, John Adams, Late President of the United States; and Samuel Adams, Late Governor of Massachusetts. On the Important Subject of Government
(Boston: Adams and Rhoades, 1802) pp. 9-10

George Washington, asked to address the Chiefs of the Delaware Indians about educating their youth:

You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. . . . Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.
The Writings of GeoWashington, Jared Sparks, ed., (Boston: Ferdinand Andrews, 1838) XV:55,
from his speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs, May 12, 1779.

Charles Carroll
Signer of the Constitution

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion whose morality is so sublime and pure . . . are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.
Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475.
In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)

Benjamin Franklin

History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion. . . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.
Proposals Relating to the Education of Youth in Pennsylvania, 1749, p.22

Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and close friend of Thomas Jefferson, explaining the practice of schools in America teaching the Christian religion, implied that this practice was not wholly incompatible with non-Christian religions:

Such is my veneration for every religion that reveals the attributes of the Deity, or a future state of rewards and punishments, that I had rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mohammed inculcated upon our youth than see them grow up wholly devoid of a system of religious principles. But the religion I mean to recommend in this place, is that of the New Testament.
Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical
(Philadelphia: Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), p. 8.

[magnus]

Originally posted by slydevl
39 people signed the Constitution. 1 was an admitted deist. Thomas Paine was not a founding father.

So would you be saying that Washington and Franklin, among others, are equal or less important to this country and its formation than Carter Braxton, George Clymer, or William Floyd (all of which, incidentally, ran quickly from the British)?

[slydevl]

The first act of the United States Congress was to authorize the printing of 20,000 Bibles for the Indians. Further,

"When our first President, under the new Constitution, received the request of both Houses of Congress concerning a national declaration of a public day of Thanksgiving and Prayer, 'George Washington...issued a National Thanksgiving Proclamation' without any apparent concern that he might be mixing government and religion."






THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. U.S.
143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226
February 29, 1892

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."




"This Christian consensus is easily verified by the fact that prior to 1789 (the year that eleven of the thirteen states ratified the Constitution), many of the states still had constitutional requirements that a man must be a Christian in order to hold public office."

[kshead]

Originally posted by slydevl


But the government forces people to do things every day that they dont have the Constitutional right to do....don't hear you creating a big ruckus about that.

That's a fair enough point. It's also the type of subtlety I can appreciate. It might be just because it's religion. I know that's the key for me.

Let me say this then. There is so much baggage with this God/school/govt issue that the only way I see to resolve it is to say "no God in government" for anyone. I don't see another solution that makes everyone happy and I still feel that even though it ticks off a GREAT many Christians out there, any and every Christian can still "get" their religion without the government involved. I can envision all kinds of scenarios where I am the one person in school who doesn't want to pray (or whatever) and I just don't want that for anyone.

[BearBryant]

this thread is why religion and message boards don't mix.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson


So would you be saying that Washington and Franklin, among others, are equal or less important to this country and its formation than Carter Braxton, George Clymer, or William Floyd (all of which, incidentally, ran quickly from the British)?

And just how important was Thomas Paine...the most widely quoted man in this thread?

[slydevl]

Originally posted by kshead


That's a fair enough point. It's also the type of subtlety I can appreciate. It might be just because it's religion. I know that's the key for me.

Let me say this then. There is so much baggage with this God/school/govt issue that the only way I see to resolve it is to say "no God in government" for anyone. I don't see another solution that makes everyone happy and I still feel that even though it ticks off a GREAT many Christians out there, any and every Christian can still "get" their religion without the government involved. I can envision all kinds of scenarios where I am the one person in school who doesn't want to pray (or whatever) and I just don't want that for anyone.

I am wholeheartedly against anyone forcing anyone to do anything as regards to religion. However, I am also against the banning of anything religious. There are schools who will not allow students to read Bibles during mandatory reading time. And now they do not just say you do not have to Pledge Allegiance but you CANNOT say the Pledge of Allegiance. The problem as I see it is that they are not just enforcing the 1st Amendment, they are only enforcing part of the 1st Amendment. The part that prevents not the part that protects.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by BearBryant
this thread is why religion and message boards don't mix.

This is the best thing that has happened to this message board in a long time.

[kshead]

Originally posted by slydevl


I am wholeheartedly against anyone forcing anyone to do anything as regards to religion. However, I am also against the banning of anything religious. There are schools who will not allow students to read Bibles during mandatory reading time. And now they do not just say you do not have to Pledge Allegiance but you CANNOT say the Pledge of Allegiance. The problem as I see it is that they are not just enforcing the 1st Amendment, they are only enforcing part of the 1st Amendment. The part that prevents not the part that protects.

Still with you here too Sly. (In principle, I'm still not sure how to solve the problem though.) See below.

Zeroing in directly on the schools that ban Bible reading.....I'd say that there are going to be a lot of people that ignore that ban of that simple reading to the point that it crosses the line into formal Bible education in places. That line is so amorphous in some communities that it's laughable. Based on what I have seen in churches and schools in my lifetime, I believe that this line is danced around, trampled and pretty much whacked at by both sides that it is to the point that I can not see ANY way that the law can establish this line anymore. You can get mad at selective enforcement (another fair point), but that is always going to be there without the total ban. Mainly because it's a religious minority who usually cares about the line being crossed - and not the Christians in the majority who are actually doing the crossing.

[Piper]

Originally posted by slydevl


And just how important was Thomas Paine...the most widely quoted man in this thread?

Extremely. Paine’s writings ignited the war. To argue that he was not a founding father is ignorant of that fact.

Hell, though he attended Epicostal church with Dolly (which allows its congregation to figure out for themselves what they believe regarding the supernatural), Madison’s own comments about religion underly a Diest way of thinking.

Now, the common man, and true many legislators (many of whom were loyalists during the war), were fundamentalist Christians. The leadership? No.

Who are these Christian leaders, sly? Jackson was the first Christian President.

[BearBryant]

I think I missed this class.

[slydevl]

The Bible has more verifiable educational and historical merit (The New Testament at least) than "Katie has Two Mommies"

[chipshot]

Why is it that Universities can teach whatever relgious courses they choose but, for instance, a highschool where students have some choice over what courses they take cannot?

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Piper


Extremely. Paine’s writings ignited the war. To argue that he was not a founding father is ignorant of that fact.

Who are these Christian leaders, sly? Jackson was the first Christian President.

Paine had less influence on the formation of our government than the men mentioned by MvM...actual framers of the consitution. I used the term founding father to mean framers of the constitution.

It means little that Jackson was the first Christian president....if this is true. The majority of members of both houses were Christians as has been the case for history of this country.

[Piper]

You are deflecting the argument.

Some farmer from South Carolina that got himself elected to Congress does not qualify as a "founder." James Madison, who drafted the damn thing, does. In fact, I'd call Madison the author.

Madison said a lot of things that were fairly damning of Christianity and religion in general.

"During almost 15 centuries has the legal establishment of religion been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride, and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution"

[mramailman]

Praise the Lord!


awww Lawd I think I jus' blasphemed... :)

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Piper
You are deflecting the argument.

Some farmer from South Carolina that got himself elected to Congress does not qualify as a "founder." James Madison, who drafted the damn thing, does. In fact, I'd call Madison the author.

Madison said a lot of things that were fairly damning of Christianity and religion in general.

"During almost 15 centuries has the legal establishment of religion been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride, and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution"

If I remember correctly, the Constitutional Convention lasted for weeks with quite a bit of arguing from all delegates. Just because Madison was the stenographer doesnt mean he actually wrote the thing.

[Piper]

Madison presented the draft at the conventinion. And he won most of his points of contention.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Piper
Madison presented the draft at the conventinion. And he won most of his points of contention.

Well of course he would win most of his arguments if he presented everyone with beer.

[Piper]

At least we agree on something.

Adams. Jefferson. Madison. Founders, free thinkers, beer drinkers. God love-em.

[jasper]

Actually I think BOTH North Carolina and South Carolina take credit (blame?) for being the birthplace of Andrew Jackson - you guys can't pass that one off on us completely.

Besides, who wouldn't want to take credit for the creation of the spoils system? :rolleyes:

[slydevl]

It is impossible to govern rightly without God and the Bible. - George Washington

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters. - Benjamin Franklin

The foundation of our society and our government rests so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country. - Calvin Coolidge

The philosophy of the schoolroom in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next. - Abraham Lincoln

The basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a government which does not believe in the rights for anybody except the State! - Harry S Truman

Statesmen...may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Christianity and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

The spirit of man is more important than mere physical strength, and the spiritual fiber of a nation than its wealth. - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Nations, no less than individuals, are subject to the eternal and immutable laws of justice and morality. - John Quincy Adams

And can liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? - Thomas Jefferson

The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. - John Quincy Adams

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Christianity and morality are indispensable supports.... And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without Christianity. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail, in exclusion of Christian principles. - George Washington, Farewell Address, September 1796

[Superfluous_Nut]

The argument that "under God" refers to our history is pretty quickly shot down when you read the reasoning behind putting those words into the Pledge


The court said the 1954 insertion of "under God" was made "to recognize a Supreme Being" and advance religion at a time "when the government was publicly inveighing against atheistic communism" -- a fact, the court said, the federal government did not dispute.

The appeals court noted that when President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the act adding "under God," he said, "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."


It's pretty clear why it's in there. The solution would be to simply strike those words or to allow a moment before the official school day begins for students to say it on their own if they would like. I don't want my tax dollars subsidizing something I don't believe in.

[chipshot]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut


I don't want my tax dollars subsidizing something I don't believe in.

Are there royalties involved in using the word God?

[gutter]

It cost money to print those words on there. Sometimes irony can be so ironic.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut

I don't want my tax dollars subsidizing something I don't believe in.

Shit....my tax dollars subsidize abortion.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by chipshot


Are there royalties involved in using the word God?

Time is money. If I'm paying for kids being in class, they should be learning stuff, not praying.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by slydevl


Shit....my tax dollars subsidize abortion.

Really? Well, at least Athiests aren't firebombing schools that say the pledge of allegiance nor shooting the teachers that put up "God Bless America" posters.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut


Really? Well, at least Athiests aren't firebombing schools that say the pledge of allegiance nor shooting the teachers that put up "God Bless America" posters.

Its posts like this that demonstrate what a poor debater you are.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Hey, you brought up abortion.

[slydevl]

But it actually followed the flow of the thread and your previous post.

[Superfluous_Nut]

And the reactions of people who oppose religion in schools has also been brought up. (It's petty. Don't we have something better to do? Why does it bother you if you don't believe?)

[jasper]

Here ya go sly, direct from the N.O.W. web store :D :D

[Miss tery]

Excellent!

[magnus]

yep. All in all we gave miss_ something she really needed. A way for her to make people mad about religion and country, including having some of us talk out of our asses to defend a point, without it making her as quiver of lip or as watered of eye as the last thread she tried to pout in.

Sly, you're dodging. Say all you want, not a damn soul in this board knows what William Floyd of NY did for this country other than sign a piece of paper. I'm not so sure why you're so against the founders of this country all being theists, just not the type of theist you want them to have been. They believed in God, and as I said the same God that you're defending as if someone's attacking.

[Miss tery]

Both you and putt are good at attacking the poster as opposed to the post.

I seek not attention to myself, but rather to the fact that any federal or state endorsement of a supreme being violates the separation of church and state.

Instances of this include both the pledge of alleigance and the "in god we trust" on our currency.

[cltbuilder]

Then don't say the pledge and don't use the money. You can raise chickens and pay your internet connection fee with those.

[gladhatter]

Maybe we should now abolish Christmas, Easter and Thanksgiving as national holidays next!!

This ruling is so stupid that both the left and the right are up in arms about it!

[cltbuilder]

Not everyone. only the people with too much time on their hands. You can't please everyone. So don't please anyone.

[Miss tery]

Originally posted by gladhatter
Maybe we should now abolish Christmas, Easter and Thanksgiving as national holidays next!!

This ruling is so stupid that both the left and the right are up in arms about it!

I hate to admit it, but Christmas and Easter are doomed. Thanksgiving is a secular holiday and will continue, but I do wish they would move it to Friday.

[cltbuilder]

True...Wal-Mart and Lowe's are open on Easter now. It's the downhill slide for the Christian holidays.

[gladhatter]

Originally posted by Miss_tery


I hate to admit it, but Christmas and Easter are doomed. Thanksgiving is a secular holiday and will continue, but I do wish they would move it to Friday.

Why on earth would an athiest hate to admit that?

[cltbuilder]

days off with pay?

[BabeBryant]

Finally something thought provoking on this board. I stand by you, Sly, in your thoughts and convictions. More of us should stand up the way that you have. I have no historical quotes from our founders... only what's in my heart. God bless you.

[Piper]

Well, Easter isn't an official Federal Holiday.

Christmas has been ruled to have both secular and non-secular components. That battle was already fought.

And though this little thread got side tracked by sly and mine's debate, the fact remains this ruling has about as much chance of holding up as a Ginga board during an 7.0 earthquake.

[Miss tery]

Originally posted by gladhatter


Why on earth would an athiest hate to admit that?

Because those are the times that I get to spend quality time with my extended family. My current employer does not pay for religious holidays such as Easter and Christmas, but we close anyway.

Another economy related saving I suppose, but one which I can not complain about.

[wossa]

Do the same people that like to say "one nation, under God" also have Jesus fish on the back of their cars?

Just wondering...

[Superfluous_Nut]

I think Easter and Christmas are gonna be okay, so long as they stick to their pagan "lost to history" motifs. We're talking about overt religious references here. The case can certainly be made that a Christmas tree is the symbol of some pagan rite of some variety, but most people don't see that -- they see a christmas tree. Same with eggs and a bunny. St. Nick ain't really a saint is he?

Now, with the words "under God" you've got an overt action that EVERYBODY recognizes as being in reference to a monotheistic Creator-being. Purely religious, no mistake about it.

[Miss tery]

Originally posted by Piper
holding up as a Ginga board during an 7.0 earthquake.

Do you mean "Jenga" or is there a new game I am not aware of?

[magnus]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
Both you and putt are good at attacking the poster as opposed to the post.

You're suggesting that you had a post worth replying to in a serious manner. You simply said "excellent" as if to suggest you had gotten what you wanted, and you have.
Funny thing though. After all this school prayer thing, it seems like prayer had only become more prevalent, student-led. I never noticed it before people like you made a stink about it. Chances are, all you'll do is rile up those you're looking to push down.

[Miss tery]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut
I think Easter and Christmas are gonna be okay, so long as they stick to their pagan "lost to history" motifs. We're talking about overt religious references here. The case can certainly be made that a Christmas tree is the symbol of some pagan rite of some variety, but most people don't see that -- they see a christmas tree. Same with eggs and a bunny. St. Nick ain't really a saint is he?

Now, with the words "under God" you've got an overt action that EVERYBODY recognizes as being in reference to a monotheistic Creator-being. Purely religious, no mistake about it.

Good point, and well thought out.

[Miss tery]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson


You're suggesting that you had a post worth replying to in a serious manner. You simply said "excellent" as if to suggest you had gotten what you wanted, and you have.
Funny thing though. After all this school prayer thing, it seems like prayer had only become more prevalent, student-led. I never noticed it before people like you made a stink about it. Chances are, all you'll do is rile up those you're looking to push down.


I'm not looking to "push down" anybody. I just contend that a total separation of church and state is in the best interest of our nation.

[magnus]

Originally posted by gladhatter
This ruling is so stupid that both the left and the right are up in arms about it!

There isn't a politician who wouldn't find a way to make this a problem, whether out of belief or out of want to pose for belief.
I don't believe that it makes it constitutional, though. I want it in there, but I don't know that it's constitutional.

Problem is, appellate situations are judgemental. When "separation of church and state" was put together, it was meant to do the following:
*keep all churches from having state involvement, sponsorship, or influence. Before, most organizations were of either a clan/tribe or of a religious nature. Nationalism wasn't a factor for much of the world pre-American independence. England, basically, ran their church. Monarchy, sainthood were all very vague and seemingly related situations.
*keep one church from being dominant in power or influence over others
*keep freedom of choice of worship

In no case is anything being state - run or state - sponsored. Other than atheism and various forms of satanism, of which the percentages are very low, the greater amount of people from any background are involved in worship of some form of singularly high spiritual power.

But it's up to interpretation, which is why instead of what was intended, it's become a literal translation that religion has no place in state affair.

[magnus]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
I'm not looking to "push down" anybody. I just contend that a total separation of church and state is in the best interest of our nation.

Why is that exactly? The money, the pledge, they are insignificant symbols. They don't infringe on anyone's right or want to believe what they wish. Is it as simple as not wanting to be bothered by others' beliefs?

[BabeBryant]

i hope i never have the miserable experience of meeting you.

[Miss tery]

One of the problems these days is that ALL religions will deserve equal treatment and respect under the law.

That will include not only all the christian versions, but also the catholic, buddist, hindu, jewish, scientologist, muslim, etc, etc.

If you allow/encourage prayer in the schools and/or other forums, with the increasing ethnic diversity in this country, the prayers will take longer than the event.

[Y2Buddy]

I think TBR should have a prayer forum, just so we can pray for people like yourself.

[magnus]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
One of the problems these days is that ALL religions will deserve equal treatment and respect under the law.

That will include not only all the christian versions, but also the catholic, buddist, hindu, jewish, scientologist, muslim, etc, etc.

If you allow/encourage prayer in the schools and/or other forums, with the increasing ethnic diversity in this country, the prayers will take longer than the event.

prayer to one's self is independent of state. Unless you know something I don't, going to a basketball game and having an invocation is a voluntary and non-state sponsored situation. There is no law for what a gathering of people do.

I dunno. In the end, there would be favoritism if there was a mention of Christ or Muhammad or something of that nature. God is God to everyone who's monotheistic.

Still, that's not the home run answer that says "this is why church and state must be completely separate." The causing harm part. Rather than the "I'm an atheist so I don't want to be bothered with someone else's beliefs" thing.

Hell, there's no true liberty and justice for all, either. The Civil War temporarily proved indivisible as inaccurate as well. That doesn't change those ideals as paramount to this nation. Hell, it's technically not a true republic. Does that mean the acceptance of the pledge, save the "under God" part, as constitutional mean that the flag is falsely representative and therefore should be abolished as an incorrect symbol of the nation?

In the end it just comes down to motivation.

[Miss tery]

Prayer is a cop-out for taking personal responsibility for one's actions.

Living by the golden rule is the most spiritual life of all.

[Y2Buddy]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
Living by the golden shower is the most spiritual life of all.
...but I would have guessed that about you

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
One of the problems these days is that ALL religions will deserve equal treatment and respect under the law.

That will include not only all the christian versions, but also the catholic, buddist, hindu, jewish, scientologist, muslim, etc, etc.

If you allow/encourage prayer in the schools and/or other forums, with the increasing ethnic diversity in this country, the prayers will take longer than the event.
I can't remember exactly the date - but Newseek had an opinion article written by a high school student that dealt exactly with the Pledge of Allegiance.

According to this high schooler, she didn't believe in God. She didn't want to say those words, "under God". So, everyday, when her classmates would recite the Pledge, she would walk out in the hall and wait there until they were done.

The point is this: she was given the CHOICE to participate. She was not forced to say anything she didn't believe in.

Today, nobody is forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Everyone has a choice. If you believe in it - you can recite it. If you don't believe in it - you're welcome to stay silent. Either way, the Constitution and the Govt gives you the FREEDOM to choose.

[magnus]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
This post is a cop-out for not having an answer to your questions.

[Superfluous_Nut]

I think the thing that bothers most people (who are bothered by the whole issue of kids saying "under God") is the sense of entitlement that Christians have. The idea that those words be dropped, or that "in God we trust" be stricken from our currency is completely unacceptible to them. Why is this? What is the point of them being there if not to assert some notion of how the country should run? And isn't that sort of the point of freedom of religion -- that religion not run the government and the government not run religion?

How many times have you said the pledge since you left school? If you have kids, do you have them make the pledge when they stay home sick from school or on the weekends?

I'm guessing, and maybe I'm wrong, that really, the pledge is pretty much confined to the class-room. Which means that it's only something that kids say. Which really means that it's not terribly important to folks or it'd be a larger part of life in general (like true prayer is, for example).

The same questions could be asked of an Atheist -- what's the harm is saying those words or having them on our currency? You're not required to go along, just sit there and be quiet. If you don't believe, BFD, no harm/no foul.

Obviously there's a bigger picture to this whole thing. It's not at all about kids saying "under God" or "in God we trust" being on our money -- it's really about folks vying for control.


Christians feel like this is a Christian society and the problems with it can be traced directly to the errosion of those beliefs. They feel like they've got the answer. They feel like religion (in particular THEIR religion) is the guiding light for all of mankind. This battle is really between people that believe that and people that don't.

You can see it in who reacts and in what way they react. The vociferous fight that is undoubtedly about to be waged is really the reason I would want them stricken to begin with. While certainly Atheists can live with those words, Christians, it seems, cannot live without them. While this hints that it would be easier to just go ahead and leave it be, a deeper look would indicate that the Christian sensibility of where Government stops and Religion starts is severely out of whack.

Both sides in this fight take a look at current events for support. The Christians see the current war on terrorism as a rallying cry to unite. Some would go so far as to say that it is indeed a religious war against Islam. The folks that want a distinct seperation of Church and State point to the religious zealotry that fires the people attacking us and the government sponsorship thereof as evidence of the wisdom in dividing the two.

I'm sure the measure will be overturned. I'm sure it'll be some time before something like this comes up again, but hopefully this little battle will move the meter a little bit more toward the secular side.

[magnus]

yeah, it's about control. And in control, majority rules. It's, in its form, a very useless thing in either direction that insults and imposes upon no one. It's aesthetics.

[Miss tery]

I wish I had the time and the grasp of the issues that you have Nut.

Again, I remind all of the members of the increasing diversity of the ethnic make-up of our nation, which also increases the religious diversity of our nation.

[Y2Buddy]

I can't believe this is even an arguement. I'm am really fucking pissed about this whole thing. I would personally donate to a fund for anybody that don't like it to get the fuck out of this country and go live in Pakistan or bumfuck Egypt for all I care. I guess we'll have to reprint all of our fucking money too while were at it. I feel sorry, really I do, for the poor souls that are lost, but really think they have a clue.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson
yeah, it's about control. And in control, majority rules.

Well, the majority doesn't exactly rule. The bill of rights is supposed to protect against majority rule where the rights of minorities are at risk.

[p2k1f]

we're supposed to have freedom y2. it doesn't sound too american to say get the fuck out of here if you don't like us pushing our religious ideas down your throat. you feel sorry for us? to me it's ridiculous to have kids recite a pledge of allegiance. what are they going to do, revolt? it's mindless brainwashing. it's designed to get boys ready to be soldiers i think. it would be more fitting if it was changed to ' i pledge allegiance to profit and environmental destruction, and the globalization of corporate profiteering...and to making the american people stupider and stupider (or more and more stupid) so we can sell them more useless stuff ...' you need to get a grip throw your bible away, and go sit on the hill for a couple days without food or water - you might figure out what's important.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
Again, I remind all of the members of the increasing diversity of the ethnic make-up of our nation, which also increases the religious diversity of our nation.
I agree with that. That being said, however, I would suggest that a "lack of religious belief" is, in fact, a belief about supreme being (believing a supreme being doesn't exist IS a belief).

This belief system is pushed on the rest (the majority, I would remind everyone). Doesn't this constitute endorsing a belief system? Seems like it does to me.

[Y2Buddy]

Originally posted by p2k1f
we're supposed to have freedom y2. it doesn't sound too american to say get the fuck out of here if you don't like us pushing our religious ideas down your throat. you feel sorry for us? to me it's ridiculous to have kids recite a pledge of allegiance. what are they going to do, revolt? it's mindless brainwashing. it's designed to get boys ready to be soldiers i think. it would be more fitting if it was changed to ' i pledge allegiance to profit and environmental destruction, and the globalization of corporate profiteering...and to making the american people stupider and stupider (or more and more stupid) so we can sell them more useless stuff ...' you need to get a grip throw your bible away, and go sit on the hill for a couple days without food or water - you might figure out what's important.
You better hurry before you miss the boat.

This country was built with faith, and without it, we would no longer be indivisable. To become a US citizen, you pledge alligence to the flag. The President of the United States is sworn in on the bible. You swear an oath on a bible when you take the stand. It's printed on our money. It's not like this was an all of a sudden, you woke up one day and this is how it was. We are the greatest country in the world, and before you tell me to sit on a hill and and go hungry, go to some third world country and fall ill or something, or just get robbed. You people talk real big and tough under the security blanket of America, but your the first ones to complain about it. So yea, if you don't like it, feel FREE to get the fuck out. I'm not saying leave because you don't believe what I believe, just allow me what I allow you, don't take it away from me. Kids today suffer enough without prayer in schools. Isn't it ironic that the school and church used to be the same building?

[Piper]

Have to agree with p2 on at least one point, saying "get the fuck out" if you don't agree with the way we do things is pretty fucking stupid. It leads to apathy and the supports the suppression of free thought.

Whether or not you agree with the ruling, those that raise these issues do in fact love this country. But our love should not be neglectful, for if we neglect what we feel is wrong with our great country, and we are not perfect, then we are failing as a society.

Disagree and fight on the issue, but the minority has a right to be heard, and a right to due proccess. Take away that right, then one day you may find yourself in the minority without a chance to speak.

[Puttingood]

Courtesy of Jbghostrat===========http://home.att.net/~poofcatt/july.html

[Puttingood]

Cry Cry Cry !!!

Miss_tery thinks I attack the poster instead of the post. After it has attacked me for being concerned for its health.

My problem with you miss_tery is that you have no opinions of your own. You have always copied and pasted what others have written except when you are drunk and then you can't spell a lick and just blurt out undiciphable words such as "erk" and "blah". You have constantly put down other people for their spelling when in reality you can't spell a lick when you have to write the reply on your own.
You only post your atheist beliefs because you read them somewhere else and you think it will get you attention. You are not even a good atheist ! You would be and are being picked apart by any one with a little bit of sense.
If you are going to be something then be it but don't let other people tell you what to be.
You ain't the first so-called atheist I have ever seen and you wouldn't make a pimple on a real atheists ass. Get your facts straight and come back when you are alittle more educated on this subject.:)

[chipshot]

Originally posted by Miss_tery

That will include not only all the christian versions, but also the catholic, buddist, hindu, jewish, scientologist, muslim, etc, etc.


Since when was Catholicism not considered Christian? Did you learn that at some Athiest school?

[Piper]

I think the crux of the issue is whether the voluntary expression or exposure of the term "under God" causes a state sponsored endorsement or suppression of religion. If so, which religion? If it sways an atheist toward religion, I'm not sure I can point to a particular religion that athiest would be swayed to choose by simple exposure.

[voyergirl]

miss terry can kiss my God fearing ass! and eat the dirt under her feet. you people fuck it up for everyone. if you don't like living in a nation under God, then get the hell out. makes me sick to think He gives you life and your to stupid to even know it

[kshead]

Originally posted by Y2Buddy

You better hurry before you miss the boat.

This country was built with faith, and without it, we would no longer be indivisable. To become a US citizen, you pledge alligence to the flag. The President of the United States is sworn in on the bible. You swear an oath on a bible when you take the stand. It's printed on our money. It's not like this was an all of a sudden, you woke up one day and this is how it was. We are the greatest country in the world, and before you tell me to sit on a hill and and go hungry, go to some third world country and fall ill or something, or just get robbed. You people talk real big and tough under the security blanket of America, but your the first ones to complain about it. So yea, if you don't like it, feel FREE to get the fuck out. I'm not saying leave because you don't believe what I believe, just allow me what I allow you, don't take it away from me. Kids today suffer enough without prayer in schools. Isn't it ironic that the school and church used to be the same building?

Yesterday, I successfully killed not ONE, but TWO threads with my little speech on this very thing. Rather than kill this one too, I'll just ask you to to find the speech in the other areas of TBR

http://thisboardrocks.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=8298&pagenumber=3

rather spend anymore time telling you here in this post why I think you're being an asshole to say this. This goes for anyone else who wants to tell me to screw myself and leave the country too.

I'd also point out that I'm sure there are a lot of kids in this world who pray non-stop during the other 16 hours of the day when they are not in school - if at all. I'm going to bet that some of them still suffer a great deal sometimes too.

[jasper]

Y2 and voyergirl, the "get the hell out" topic has been covered under the similar thread (http://www.thisboardrocks.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8298) in News of the Day. I'll refer to the distinguished Christian gentleman from Maryland, kshead, for a quote:
you say you want us to play by the rules? Fine. Who do you think sets these rules? Try the courts. From DAY ONE in this country, we have depended upon rule of law. The court just set the rules that you have to play by. By your own logic, you should be buying your plane ticket to hit the road now. I mean - you apparently do not want to "play by the rules.

Instead, you try to lay the fact that you cannot accept this court decision on other people and their behavior. That's simply a load of shit.

and I'll include his disclaimer as well:
Please stop suggesting or implying that because I (and others that respect the courts) don't bitch, whine, cry and moan about every little removal of God from our society as a sign of the Apocalypse that I am somehow anti-Christian. I'm not. People can still recite the Pledge and I can still get my groove on with God without having you or the government help me with it. And I still love my country.

And I'll wait for him to smack me for quoting him so much.:p

It's all about giving everyone the freedom to decide for themselves. How could you be American and not want that?

[jasper]

nevermind, he did it for me.

[meatpile]

Interesting - the folks that don't believe the gov't should have prayer in their unconstitutional school system believe that the same government should use assets to pay for abortions.

You want to pray in school? Open your own damn schools.

You want the poor to get free abortions? Pay for it your damned self.

Unless, of course, you're all fucking talk, and too goddam fearful and lazy to do it on your own, so you hand your personal liberties over to the state, who proceeds to fuck you in your lazy, all talk, fat fucking ass.

[voyergirl]

Originally posted by jasper
Y2 and voyergirl, the "get the hell out" -----------------

It's all about giving everyone the freedom to decide for themselves. How could you be American and not want that?


what about the kids who CHOOSE to say the pledge and there is no longer time given by the teacher in the morning to do so. what happened to those kid's rights???

we have no way to decide for ourselves, we DO live in America. we are not GIVEN anymore freedom it is just slowly being taken away!!!!!!!!!

[p2k1f]

just a fyi, i'm not an atheist, nor a christian. i've got no problem with jesus, just lot's of his "followers" don't really seem to be following, more like trying to ride on his coattails. they give lip service, and are the first ones ready to strike in these types of discussions, and i don't think that's very christian. really it's just that, i don't think 90% of the people who claim to be christian really are. they just talk it, and it taints his message for many people. public synchronized prayer does not, imho, make you a better person. if the parents are doing their job, and stay in a semi-constant conscious awareness of the everything god throughout their lives, then the kids will learn this from them at a very early age. they won't need synchronized pledges or prayer in school because they'll have a personal relationship. Now again our presidents' children have been caught drinking underage. if a man and woman don't have the ability to raise their daughters in a good way, and don't have the respect of their daughters, which they obviously don't or they wouldn't be in dc, in public, drinking, then to me this guy doesn't have the ability to lead our country, and for him to blast this ruling is more bs lip service.

[chipshot]

Now again our presidents' children have been caught drinking underage. if a man and woman don't have the ability to raise their daughters in a good way, and don't have the respect of their daughters, which they obviously don't or they wouldn't be in dc, in public, drinking, then to me this guy doesn't have the ability to lead our country, and for him to blast this ruling is more bs lip service.


How many of us drank while underage? Id say its 99%. If that is your criteria for president then the only candidates would be bible thumping extremest. Then how happy would you be?

[slydevl]

Obviously you know nothing about Jesus or his message. Its all about riding his coattails son.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by p2k1f
Now again our presidents' children have been caught drinking underage. if a man and woman don't have the ability to raise their daughters in a good way, and don't have the respect of their daughters, which they obviously don't or they wouldn't be in dc, in public, drinking, then to me this guy doesn't have the ability to lead our country, and for him to blast this ruling is more bs lip service.

This is the most idiotic thing I have ever read. Not just on this board but anywhere. Congratulations on your surpreme stupidity.

[magnus]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut
Well, the majority doesn't exactly rule. The bill of rights is supposed to protect against majority rule where the rights of minorities are at risk.

It;s not like we're talking Christianity versus buddhism. We're talking all organized practiced religions versus a group for which organized religion means nothing. There's no risk, just hurt feelings.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by Y2Buddy

This country was built with faith, and without it, we would no longer be indivisable.


So it's have faith or get out? Is that how you make a country indivisible? By kicking out anybody that disagrees?


The President of the United States is sworn in on the bible.


That's only because that's how they've done it in the past. It's not in the constitution that way. Which Bible do they use, anyway? Also, "so help me God" is also NOT in the official Presidential Oath of Office.


You swear an oath on a bible when you take the stand.


In California, you affirm to tell the truth. There's no Bible in site.


It's printed on our money. It's not like this was an all of a sudden, you woke up one day and this is how it was.


Actually, it was sorta. The words "under God" were put in in 1954. The "in God we Trust" stuff started after the Civil War and was finally made an official motto also in the 50's. Not entirely overnight, but not exactly dating back for hundreds of years or anything either.


Isn't it ironic that the school and church used to be the same building?

Barbers used to do surgery, too. Luckily, we've moved past that.

[Stargazer]

The government provides for the education of all American children. I do not think it is out of line to teach our children respect for their country by having them recite the Pledge of Allegiance--it may be the only place they have the opportunity to learn patriotism and loyalty.

The words 'under God' should never have been added, imho. They were added to deliver a shot in the ribs to the communists. Ha! I bet the communists lost a lot of sleep over that one. Now, we are getting a shot in the ribs for adding those words. Why can't we just restore it to its original form?

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson


It;s not like we're talking Christianity versus buddhism. We're talking all organized practiced religions versus a group for which organized religion means nothing. There's no risk, just hurt feelings.

Says you. Budhism has no God. The Hindus have multiple Gods. Wicka(sp?) has no God.

The danger, really, is re-inforcing the notion that this country is a Christian country as opposed to a secular one. Clearly, many people feel that it IS a Christian country. When people hear "under God" they are really understanding that is the Christian God, not Allah, not Vishnu, not Zoastor, etc. Just look at who is saying it ought to stay there -- Christians and Jews (who recognize that they share the same God).

[Y2Buddy]

* "It is impossible to govern rightly without God and the Bible."

--- George Washington

*

* "We must realize that no weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women."

--- Ronald Reagan

*

* "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are the gift of God?"

--- Thomas Jefferson

*
*"With malice towards none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right."

---Abraham Lincoln, Second Inaugural Address, March 4, 1865

*

* "We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government: upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

--- James Madison

*

*"I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire cannot rise without His aid? We have been assured in the sacred writings that, 'except the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it.'"

--- Benjamin Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787

*
* "A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader."

---Samuel Adams

*

*"We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come."

--- Samuel Adams, as he signed the Declaration of Independence

*
"Our Fathers were brought up by their veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles within the elements of their society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions -- civil, political, or literary."

--- Daniel Webster

*

*"To the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."

--- George Washington

*
"A patriot without religions is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God...The scriptures tell us 'righteousness exalts a nation.'"

--- Abigail Adams

*

*"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

--- John Quincy Adams

*
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped...As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see."

---Benjamin Franklin



*"No power over the freedom of religion...[is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution."

---Thomas Jefferson



"Proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof."

---Leviticus 25:10, inscribed on the Liberty Bell



*"We have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved usin peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us."*

---Abraham Lincoln's 1863 Thanksgiving Proclamation



"Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

---George Washington, in his farewell address

*

*"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

---Benjamin Franklin

*
"There never was a good war or a bad peace."

---Benjamin Franklin

*

*"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

---Benjamin Franklin, At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776

*
"Yesterday the greatest question was decided which ever was debated in America; and a greater perhaps never was, nor will be, decided among men. A resolution was passed without one dissenting colony, that those United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States."

---John Adams, in a Letter to wife Abigail, July 3, 1776

*

*"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"

---Patrick Henry, Speech in the Virginia Convention, March, 1775

*
"The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time."

---Thomas Jefferson

*

*"Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."

---Thomas Jefferson

*
"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens."

---Daniel Webster

*

*"Thank God! I--I also--am an American!"

---Daniel Webster

*
"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it."

---Daniel Webster

*

*"I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free."

---Abraham Lincoln, Speech, June 16, 1858

*
"Let us have faith that right makes might; and in that faith let us dare to do our duty as we understand it."

---Abraham Lincoln, Address, New York City, Feb. 21, 1859

*
"For this is what America is all about. It is the uncrossed desert and the unclimbed ridge. It is the star that is not reached and the harvest that's sleeping in the unplowedground."

---Lyndon Baines Johnson

*

*"America lives in the heart of every man everywhere who wishes to find a region where he will be free to work out his destiny as he chooses."

---Woodrow Wilson

*
"In the field of world policy, I would dedicate this nation to the policy of the good neighbor."

---Franklin Delano Roosevelt

*

*"I would rather see the United States respected than loved by other nations."

---Henry Cabot Lodge

*
"America.... It is a fabulous country, the only fabulous country; it is the only place where miracles not only happen, but where they happen all the time."

---Thomas Wolfe

*

*"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right."

---Carl Schurz

*
* "America ... a great social and economic experiment, noble in motive and far-reaching in purpose."

---Herbert Hoover

*

* "For the American people are a very generous people and will forgive almost any weakness, with the possible exception of stupidity."

---Will Rogers

*
* "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country."

---Nathan Hale

*

* "Patriotism is easy to understand in America; it means looking out for yourself by looking out for your country."

---Calvin Coolidge

*
* "There are no such things as limits to growth, because there are no limits on the human capacity for intelligence, imagination and
wonder."

---Ronald Reagan

[Turbo]

Allow me to add these:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or to often that this great nation was founded not but religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the gospel of Jesus Christ."-- Patrick Henry

“Do not let anyone claim tribute of American patriotism if they even attempt to remove religion from politics." -- George Washington Farewell Address to Nation

“The 1st amendment has created a wall of separation between church and state, but that wall is a one directional wall, it keeps the government from running the church, but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government."-- President Thomas Jefferson in an address to Danbury Baptists.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Quote all you want, but NONE of those quotes have anything to do with the LAW OF THE LAND. They are all opinions of how those individuals see things.

If Christianity was the basis of this Nation, why does it not appear ONCE in the single most important document of our nation -- the Constitution? No "God", no "Jesus Christ", no "Bible", nothing. You think they just forgot it?

[slydevl]

Quotes like that point to the intent behind the 1st Amendment something people like you conveniently want to overlook.

Read the 1st Amendment without applying the atheits' prefered phrase of "strict Separation of Church and State" and it is actually pretty vague. However, we have all these wonderful quotes which give evidence to the mindset of the founding fathers and the intent behind the Amendment.

[Piper]

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825


Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820


We could do this all day.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Piper
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.



Bullshit!

Why is polygamy a federal offense?

[Superfluous_Nut]

And they had their chance to put in Christ or God or Bible if they wanted to. Why did they leave it out? Sounds like they were awfully religious folks from the quotes above. Certainly they could have made some reference to the supreme being that everybody seems to believe exists, regardless of affiliation or sect.

[Piper]

Originally posted by slydevl


Bullshit!

Why is polygamy a federal offense?

Don't yell at me. Yell at Thomas Jefferson. He said it.

[Piper]

If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country.
-- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the "Magna-Charta" here refers to the proposed United States Constitution

The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.
-- George Washington, letter to the congregation of Touro Synagogue, Newport, Rhode Island, August, 1790, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 862

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
-- George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom, also James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief

We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.
-- George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 497, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists.
-- George Washington, letter to Tench Tilghman asking him to secure a carpenter and a bricklayer for his Mount Vernon estate, March 24, 1784, in Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion (1963) p. 118, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong.
-- George Washington, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, a Mennonite minister, May 28, 1788, in Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion (1963) p. 118, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it certainly is the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.
-- George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28,1789, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom, also in Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, The Harper Book of American Quotations (1988)

[slydevl]

You said the following Piper:

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

and it is completely ignorant.

Christian moral values are found in numerous aspects of federal law.

[Piper]

Originally posted by slydevl
You said the following Piper:

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

and it is completely ignorant.

Christian moral values are found in numerous aspects of federal law.

Apparently, reading isn't your strong suit.

Thomas Jefferson said that, not I.

Though I do agree with him.

[slydevl]

Sorry....I did read it too quickly but if you agree with it you are still ignorant.

[Piper]

So you are calling Thomas Jefferson ignorant on one of his most notable subjects? Hmmmm. Jefferson, leader of men, founding father. Slydevil, ass of bass. Got to go with the old TJ on this one.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by slydevl


Bullshit!

Why is polygamy a federal offense?


Religious persecution of the Mormons (who consider themselves Christian, I do believe).

[Piper]

I do dislike repeating myself, so those who want to discuss why some of the same men made some seemingly contradictory statements can go here.

http://www.thisboardrocks.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8365

[slydevl]

Thomas Jefferson has repeatedly contradicted himself in quotes throughout this thread. For you to put so much stock in only one slant of his words demonstrates a bias of incredible proportions.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut



Religious persecution of the Mormons (who consider themselves Christian, I do believe).

If you delieve that you, would be wrong. The Mormons fled to Utah because the laws outlawing polygamy had long been established. Established due to the fact that Christian morals had a huge influence on the common law of the US.

"As to those laws, which those of holy church have in ancient scripture, it behooves us to give them credence, for this is common law, upon which all manner of laws are founded; and thus, sir, we are obliged to take notice of their law of holy church; and it seems they are obliged to take notice of our law."

Justice Joseph Story

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut



Religious persecution of the Mormons (who consider themselves Christian, I do believe).

I need to make another comment on this because your ignorance is really astonishing sometimes.

If a religion were to spring up who believed it was OK to sleep with 8 year old girls even though there is an existing law prohibiting it and they were prosecuted and forced to flee the country, would you say they were fleeing religious persecution?

[Piper]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Piper
So one could wonder, how can one person make the statements above, and yet the same people make statements such as found in the "Long Overdue" thread.
Such as...


----------------------------------------------

During almost 15 centuries has the legal establishment of religion been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride, and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution -- James Madison

The "divinity" of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity -- John Adams

All national institutions of churches-whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish-appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit -- Thomas Paine

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law rejecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and state -- Thomas Jefferson
______________________________-
The answer; one, they were politicians. They were careful about who thier audience was (except for Paine. Paine was the original Mr. Politically Incorrect who said not only what he thought, but went to extremes to provoke debate, and that was his undoing).

Two, and more importantly, the statements are not mutally exclusive. Diests, and Unitarians and Episcipalians after them, believe in the God of Abraham as the sole God. They believed in the Christian teachings of "do unto others" and so forth. Many, like Washington, did believe himself to be a Christian, as any man would who believed in those teachings. That he did not personally believe that Christ was God incarnate was irrevelent, and I agree.

No their attack was on the religous establishment, organized religion that sought, and in my view contiues to seek, the abridgement of human thought. And it was that establishment that our founders sought to seperate from the establishment of law.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If you understood what Diests believed and the “natural God”, which embraced the “do unto others” philosophy while rejecting the supernatural, understood the difference between addressing some pissed off ministers vs their actual recorded memoirs, you’d understand those contradictions. But that would assume that the gravity from your ass hasn’t already damaged the critical thinking part of your brain. Bad assumption.

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Piper
If you understood what Diests believed and the “natural God”, which embraced the “do unto others” philosophy while rejecting the supernatural, understood the difference between addressing some pissed off ministers vs their actual recorded memoirs, you’d understand those contradictions. But that would assume that the gravity from your ass hasn’t already damaged the critical thinking part of your brain. Bad assumption.

The ignorance and pettiness of this remark is astonishing. Quotes both for and against both sides have been posted in oral speeches and written memoirs. To be quite honest with you, I think Thomas Jefferson was genuinely confused as to what he believed and there are enough inconsistencies to discount his ramblings on the subject entirely. Of course that nullifies your 100lb gorilla.

[slydevl]

You know Piper, I think your ignorance stems from the fact that you cannot separate the Chrisitian church as an establishment from the teachings of Christ.

When you read the quotes you have posted it is quite obvious that those founding fathers had a problem with the Church and some didnt believe in the divinity of Christ....but all accepted Christ's teachings as worthy of basing our laws upon.

[Piper]

Originally posted by slydevl
You know Piper, I think your ignorance stems from the fact that you cannot separate the Chrisitian church as an establishment from the teachings of Christ.

When you read the quotes you have posted it is quite obvious that those founding fathers had a problem with the Church and some didnt believe in the divinity of Christ....but all accepted Christ's teachings as worthy

No, that is what I said, to that point.

Of course, it has already been established that you lack reading comprehension skills.

Quote the Piper…

“Diests, and Unitarians and Episcipalians after them, believe in the God of Abraham as the sole God. They believed in the Christian teachings of "do unto others" and so forth. Many, like Washington, did believe himself to be a Christian, as any man would who believed in those teachings. That he did not personally believe that Christ was God incarnate was irrevelent, and I agree.”

However, as I go on to say.

“No their attack was on the religous establishment, organized religion that sought, and in my view contiues to seek, the abridgement of human thought. And it was that establishment that our founders sought to seperate from the establishment of law.”

That holds true entirely, and is completely supporative of most, if not all of the contradictions. Even Mike agreed with me on that point.

[slydevl]

And it has never been my contention that they wanted the Christian Church as a state church or that they were Christian, or that they believed Christ was the son of God. Simply that our law was based on Christian teaching. It was at that point that you pitched a hissy while actually agreeing with me. Perhaps it is you who lacks reading comprehension. It was never the intention of any of the founding fathers to remove belief in God from government or law, simply to stear clear of establishing a state sponsored Church and by Church I mean the establishment not the ideas.

[Y2Buddy]

Ok, Sorry for what I said. I'm sure whatever decision is made will be the correct one.

[magnus]

>>Says you. Budhism has no God. The Hindus have multiple Gods. Wicka(sp?) has no God.

Wicca isn't recognized as a religion by this nation. Neither is witchcraft, magick, or any number of the billion different religions that have been invented this month or in the past 30 days.

>>Christians and Jews (who recognize that they share the same God)

and muslims, who outrank any other major world religion in this nation.

Nonetheless, basically you have a situation of not wanting to have to deal with someone else's religion being favored, in spirit, by individuals of the government. It's not a threatening situation, it's not a situation of divisibility like India/Palestine, it's not a situation of church control. The people who put that there were not affiliated with the church, they were politicians. No amount of pouting will change the fact that separation of church and state isn't being used the way the founders of this nation intended.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by slydevl


If you delieve that you, would be wrong. The Mormons fled to Utah because the laws outlawing polygamy had long been established. Established due to the fact that Christian morals had a huge influence on the common law of the US.

"As to those laws, which those of holy church have in ancient scripture, it behooves us to give them credence, for this is common law, upon which all manner of laws are founded; and thus, sir, we are obliged to take notice of their law of holy church; and it seems they are obliged to take notice of our law."

Justice Joseph Story


That's great. You asked why it's a FEDERAL crime. The first federal law regarding polygamy was the July 8, 1862 Morrill Anti-Bigamy Law. The Mormons had settled in Utah in 1845, 17 year prior to this law being enacted.


I need to make another comment on this because your ignorance is really astonishing sometimes.

If a religion were to spring up who believed it was OK to sleep with 8 year old girls even though there is an existing law prohibiting it and they were prosecuted and forced to flee the country, would you say they were fleeing religious persecution?


Well, I suppose "existing law" is a moot point here because as I've pointed out, the federal law against polygamy DIDN'T exist. Ironically, the Mormons point to the Bible as their inspiration for multiple wives. Granted, I suspect it's likely in the old testament, but that's where most of the Christian laws come from (10 commandments included, yes?).

[magnus]

Originally posted by slydevl
You know Piper, I think your ignorance stems from the fact that you cannot separate the Chrisitian church as an establishment from the teachings of Christ.

When you read the quotes you have posted it is quite obvious that those founding fathers had a problem with the Church and some didnt believe in the divinity of Christ....but all accepted Christ's teachings as worthy of basing our laws upon.

One would just as easily argue that the laws and traits of this government are followed by organized religion, and not necessarily because of Christ. Islam follows these same tenets, judaism as well. Good ideals are independent of Christ's word, and while I believe in Him and follow the words He put together, I'm not about to say that he was an inventor of moral code that no one had considered before. That's now at all what the situation of Christ was about.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson
>>Says you. Budhism has no God. The Hindus have multiple Gods. Wicka(sp?) has no God.

Wicca isn't recognized as a religion by this nation. Neither is witchcraft, magick, or any number of the billion different religions that have been invented this month or in the past 30 days.


Huh? Wicca is ancient. It's origins are Celtic. Not invented in the last 30 days. And besides, since when is that even an issue? You think somebody didn't invent the Church?


>>Christians and Jews (who recognize that they share the same God)

and muslims, who outrank any other major world religion in this nation.


I don't see a lot of Muslims crying foul on this. Maybe they're out there, but I haven't seen it. Ask Gladhatter if "God" is the same as "Allah".


Nonetheless, basically you have a situation of not wanting to have to deal with someone else's religion being favored, in spirit, by individuals of the government. It's not a threatening situation, it's not a situation of divisibility like India/Palestine, it's not a situation of church control. The people who put that there were not affiliated with the church, they were politicians. No amount of pouting will change the fact that separation of church and state isn't being used the way the founders of this nation intended. [/QUOTE]

Actually, the people that put it there WERE affiliated with the Church. Congress said "sure", but the push came from the Knights of Columbus among others. It was a direct shot at the "Godless Soviets" in the time of the cold war.

[magnus]

>>I don't see a lot of Muslims crying foul on this. Maybe they're out there, but I haven't seen it. Ask Gladhatter if "God" is the same as "Allah".

Actually, I don't have to. I've spent a good amount of time with the Muslim community in this area and they do interpret the same God as the same God. If you want to go to Palestine and take it up with someone there, or go to the border of India and Pakistan and see what they think, that's your business.


>>Actually, the people that put it there WERE affiliated with the Church.

Name five lawmakers, ever, that were clergy.

[slydevl]

The Illinois law against polygamy was inacted in 1833....the federal law was in recognition of the fact that most states had already inacted laws against polygamy.

Two other examples of Christian morality in common law:

Homosexual acts were against the law until recently.

Only a man and a woman may marry.

[magnus]

Originally posted by slydevl
The Illinois law against polygamy was inacted in 1833....the federal law was in recognition of the fact that most states had already inacted laws against polygamy.

Two other examples of Christian morality in common law:

Homosexual acts were against the law until recently.

Only a man and a woman may marry.

all toads are frogs, not all frogs are toads.

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson
>>I don't see a lot of Muslims crying foul on this. Maybe they're out there, but I haven't seen it. Ask Gladhatter if "God" is the same as "Allah".

Actually, I don't have to. I've spent a good amount of time with the Muslim community in this area and they do interpret the same God as the same God. If you want to go to Palestine and take it up with someone there, or go to the border of India and Pakistan and see what they think, that's your business.


Actually, my point is that Muslims may feel it's the same God, but many Christians do not.


>>Actually, the people that put it there WERE affiliated with the Church.

Name five lawmakers, ever, that were clergy.

Yes, laws are written by lawmakers, but lobbyists are very powerful. Heck, Prohibition was enacted largely because of the Christian Temperance movement. Were the lawmakers organizers of the movement themselves or simply acting on behalf of their constituants?

[Superfluous_Nut]

Originally posted by slydevl
The Illinois law against polygamy was inacted in 1833....the federal law was in recognition of the fact that most states had already inacted laws against polygamy.


Yeah, it had nothing to do with Utah trying to join the Union. I'm sure all those folks, having just conquered the South and their silly States' Rights opinions, were really interested in codifying as many frivolous Federal Laws as they could.

[Stargazer]

See how much more fun it is when serious debates are interspersed with our general chit chat. I like it! LarryD, can we combine News of the day into the R & R forum?:)

[slydevl]

Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut
Originally posted by slydevl
The Illinois law against polygamy was inacted in 1833....the federal law was in recognition of the fact that most states had already inacted laws against polygamy.


Yeah, it had nothing to do with Utah trying to join the Union. I'm sure all those folks, having just conquered the South and their silly States' Rights opinions, were really interested in codifying as many frivolous Federal Laws as they could.

Why would the Federal Govt be concerned with passing a Federal Law that pretty much only applied to one Territory that wasn't even a state yet?

Regardless, it is still an example or Christian morality in our Federal Laws. And don't try that "the Mormons used the Bible as an excuse". So did David Koresh and numerous other charlatans. And if they did justify it using the Bible it was the Old Testament which is not the foundation of Christian morality.

[Superfluous_Nut]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by slydevl


Why would the Federal Govt be concerned with passing a Federal Law that pretty much only applied to one Territory that wasn't even a state yet?


Makes you wonder, doesn't it? It probably has something to do with the Mormons being driven from each place they called home till they found a place they could run themselves. So much for local government, I guess.


Regardless, it is still an example or Christian morality in our Federal Laws. And don't try that "the Mormons used the Bible as an excuse". So did David Koresh and numerous other charlatans. And if they did justify it using the Bible it was the Old Testament which is not the foundation of Christian morality.

http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-morality.htm

Basically it points out that Christian morality and laws are pretty much the same as most other religions'.

[Braves]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Superfluous_Nut

[/B]It probably has something to do with the Mormons being driven from each place they called home till they found a place they could run themselves. [B]

Do you think they found some Palestinians there and kicked their ass out of Utah.

[Y2Buddy]

Originally posted by magnus ver magnusson

all toads are frogs, not all frogs are toads.
Yea but they both bump their ass when they jump.

[Superfluous_Nut]

I think the Mormons were relatively neutral toward the natives, and perhaps even charitable. But history is written by the victors, so it's hard to tell what the real story was.

[SilverSurfer]

I hate this thread. :rolleyes:

[Miss tery]

I think some of the most intellectual discussion I have ever read (in R&R) has occured in this thread.

Definately a "hot spot", religion is always a serious contender for emotional debate.

[SilverSurfer]

Originally posted by Miss_tery
I think some of the most intellectual discussion I have ever read (in R&R) has occured in this thread.

Definately a "hot spot", religion is always a serious contender for emotional debate.

Maybe so, but it bores the hell out of me.

And if you want to question my intelligence because it bores me, check your spelling of "definitely".

[Fred]

Originally posted by SilverSurfer
And if you want to question my intelligence because it bores me, check your spelling of "definitely". :applause:

Miss Tery, I don't think anyone minds you being an athiest or hates you for that reason. They hate you because; simply... you are a cunt!

[Y2Buddy]

Originally posted by Fred
:applause:

Miss Tery, I don't think anyone minds you being an athiest or hates you for that reason. They hate you because; simply... you are a cunt!

I concur. The message is authentic.

[SilverSurfer]

I don't hate Miss_tery, and I'm certainly not questioning the intellectual nature of the thread or the people debating the issue. But it's tiresome to me that this is the only thing that she brings up to spark debate. Think of something else.

In my opinion, if you want it, the whole thing over the pledge of allegiance is a colossal waste of time. There's no reason to waste a courts time, the American peoples time, or anybody elses time over whether you should say it or not. Just say it or don't. Or you can say it, and the people who don't believe in the "under God" part, can not say that part when they say it. It's really not that big a deal. And if somebody who's in grade school doesn't want to pledge allegiance to America or the flag (nothing to do with God here) and have been taught that by their parents, then take them (the parents) and go back to wherever you came from. There's too many damn people here anyway.

[Piper]

Originally posted by slydevl
And it has never been my contention that they wanted the Christian Church as a state church or that they were Christian, or that they believed Christ was the son of God. Simply that our law was based on Christian teaching. It was at that point that you pitched a hissy while actually agreeing with me.

If you mean western laws dervied largely from Jewish/Christian philosiopy and morality, yeah. But the same could be said for humanism, whether they'd like to admit it or not.

Christian philosophy and Christianity are not entirely the same thing. Leave the philosophy, removed the supernatural aspects, and add the advancement of science and freedom of thought, and you have Diesm. They believed that only through discovery of creation through science could you understand the creator. This is at odds with Calvanists at the time, who beleived that the answers lied in the book, pre-supplied, and everything else is faulty.


Originally posted by slydevl

It was never the intention of any of the founding fathers to remove belief in God from government or law, simply to stear clear of establishing a state sponsored Church and by Church I mean the establishment not the ideas.

Sort of, yes. Although Diests believed in the single God, they had a very different idea about what that God might be. But what he was is irrevelent, as He is the creator of all men, of all creeds.

But that doesn't mean you could not express belief, such as prayer in the Capital and asking the people to prey during times of crisis. Because expressing belief does not hinder what you might personanally believe that God is, or isn't.

Which goes to my earlier point. Since many of our founding fathers had very different and diverging ideas about what God is, or what the concept of God is, taking that view, I can't see how that the words "In God We Trust" or putting it in the pledge can alter or suppress belief or disbelief in God, or endorse any particular concept of Him.

And I knew that we agree on that point, Sly. You never did seem to understand what I'm saying, and I got a bit perturbed when you pointed out something to me I'd already stated. It was obvious you had not read what I said.

[LarryD]

long overdue. :D

[Italia72]

Originally posted by slydevl
Its funny that atheists dont realize that their anger over the concept of God actually lends credence to his existence. There has to be some lingering doubt in their minds or there would be absolutely no need for concern. A true atheist wouldn't give a flying fuck about the mention of the word God because God to them would be about the same as the Tooth Fairy.

That's a really great point Sly...

[hasbeen99]

Originally posted by Italia72
That's a really great point Sly...

Yes, it is, but it's misdirected. I don't think for a second that Miss tery hates God. She hates Christians, and it seems with pretty good reason. :(

[Italia72]

Originally posted by hasbeen99
She hates Christians, and it seems with pretty good reason. :(

Not having the opportunity to run through the entire thread, why did you say "with pretty good reason"?

[hasbeen99]

Originally posted by Italia72
Not having the opportunity to run through the entire thread, why did you say "with pretty good reason"?

She's said before she's taken a lot of heat from Christians (apart from TBR) and even been discriminated to a degree because she's not a believer, but living in the 'Bible Belt'. Something had to cause the defensiveness she displays in these threads, and I'm betting it comes from being told at every turn that she's gonna 'burn in hell', regardless of what kind of person she is. That combined with the rampant hypocrisy of the Christians in this country would be enough to turn anyone off, don't you think?